BECKHAM IS A BROWN!!!!!!!!! (FOR REAL) (1 Viewer)

[Yenrub]

What I find interesting is people seem to think a mid first and a third round pick have little value. That's quite a bit. 

I asked someone today what would be fair compensation for Beckham. He said there was no possible compensation that would be fair.

I think there's always a price.

And what we don't know of course is if he wanted out. The talk from management about Barkley being the leader people wanted to follow last year wasn't too hard to read. 

Picks 17 & 95 for the last 10 drafts.

How many of these guys played their position to the level OBJ plays WR??

2018 - Derwin James – DB -LAC & Travarius Moore – DB – SF

2017 – Jonathan Allen – DL – WAS & Delano Hill – DB - SEA

2016 – Keanu Neal – DB- ATL & Graham Glasgow – C- DET

2015 – Arik Armstead – DL -SF & Matt Jones – RB - WAS

2014 – CJ Mosley – LB - BAL & Michael Schofield – OL - DEN

2013 – Jarvis Jones – LB – PIT & Sam Montgomery – DE- HOU

2012 – Dre Kirkpatrick -DB -CIN & Tony Bergstrom – T -OAK

2011 – Nate Solder – T -NE & Curtis Brown – DB - PIT

2010 – Mike Iupati – G-SF & Jimmy Graham – TE – NO

2009 – Josh Freeman – QB-TAM & Rashad Johnson -DB-AZ

 

[Dez]

Then there are all those wasted 1st round picks.  Guys like Justin Gilbert (who the Browns took over Beckham in 2014).  Could have just drafted Beckham that year.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Picks 17 & 95 for the last 10 drafts.

How many of these guys played their position to the level OBJ plays WR??

2018 - Derwin James – DB -LAC & Travarius Moore – DB – SF

2017 – Jonathan Allen – DL – WAS & Delano Hill – DB - SEA

2016 – Keanu Neal – DB- ATL & Graham Glasgow – C- DET

2015 – Arik Armstead – DL -SF & Matt Jones – RB - WAS

2014 – CJ Mosley – LB - BAL & Michael Schofield – OL - DEN

2013 – Jarvis Jones – LB – PIT & Sam Montgomery – DE- HOU

2012 – Dre Kirkpatrick -DB -CIN & Tony Bergstrom – T -OAK

2011 – Nate Solder – T -NE & Curtis Brown – DB - PIT

2010 – Mike Iupati – G-SF & Jimmy Graham – TE – NO

2009 – Josh Freeman – QB-TAM & Rashad Johnson -DB-AZ

While I'm on your side about OBJ v. the pick, this is an unfair way to look at it. You didn't have to take that exact player at pick 17 each of those years. Who went at 18, 19, 20....? And some of those guys are worth nearly as much as Beckham anyway.

 

[Yenrub]

While I'm on your side about OBJ v. the pick, this is an unfair way to look at it. You didn't have to take that exact player at pick 17 each of those years. Who went at 18, 19, 20....? And some of those guys are worth nearly as much as Beckham anyway.

My point is that the draft is a crap shoot and OBJ isn’t old or washed up

It’s like winning 100 million dollar lottery spending 40 million of it on crap you want, then using the remaining 60 million to buy another lottery ticket.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

If Landry can get OBJ to shut his pie hole, could be great things ahead for the Brownies.

The Giants get a first AND a third AND Peppers AND exhorcise cancer from their organization.  Big win for the Giants imo.

 

[FF Ninja]

My point is that the draft is a crap shoot and OBJ isn’t old or washed up

It’s like winning 100 million dollar lottery spending 40 million of it on crap you want, then using the remaining 60 million to buy another lottery ticket.

What is whooshing over your head is that the 1.17 pick would have a fraction of the cap cost of OBJ. So you've got to ask yourself is 1.17 + a $15M/year player worth the same as OBJ ($18M/year)? When you take into account that OBJ was unhappy in NY and has only played 16 games once in his career, I'm going to call that close enough.

I'm not excusing all of the Giants moves - as Dr.O pointed out earlier, half of their moves scream "rebuilding" and half scream "win now." The front office has been terribly inconsistent in their approach. So I don't like the body of work done by them, but in a vacuum this week's trades seem quite reasonable to me. 

 

[FF Ninja]

I've found this one super interesting, @FF Ninja   And full disclosure, I don't hang on every move in free agency. I treat it a lot like the NFL Draft, I'm interested of course. But I'm way more interested after the fact. In other words, I care very little whether Le'Veon Bell's holdout move worked or not. I care a TON about what he'll do in 2019 with the Jets. That's where our job at FBG is not very much like a normal sportswriter. They all want to talk about what happened. And rightfully so. I want to talk about what will happen.

With that said, I found myself on an island last night with most of the FBG staff in disbelief the Browns could ever rob the Giants so badly. I saw it much more like you.  

In most cases, I don't think it is a wise move to trade prime draft capital for extremely pricey assets - it's a recipe for future cap disaster. The Browns were in a position to do so (which is pretty rare), but I caught a lot of flack for disliking the Bears trade for Mack. A year later, and this is where they were to begin free agency. I gotta think they'll be in a similar position next year and if Trubisky hasn't improved by then, that's going to be a tough hole to dig themselves out of.

Generally speaking, teams stay relevant by building through the draft and finding good deals in free agency. Sometimes teams can afford to send a prime draft pick for a player on a rookie deal and sometimes teams can afford to pay an elite contract in free agency, but it is really tough to overcome paying a prime draft pick for an elite contract. I think the Browns are a team that can do that, thanks to Baker being on a rookie contract, but most teams can't do that. And sorry, Chicago, Trubisky probably isn't as good as Baker.

 

[Yenrub]

What is whooshing over your head is that the 1.17 pick would have a fraction of the cap cost of OBJ. So you've got to ask yourself is 1.17 + a $15M/year player worth the same as OBJ ($18M/year)? When you take into account that OBJ was unhappy in NY and has only played 16 games once in his career, I'm going to call that close enough.

I'm not excusing all of the Giants moves - as Dr.O pointed out earlier, half of their moves scream "rebuilding" and half scream "win now." The front office has been terribly inconsistent in their approach. So I don't like the body of work done by them, but in a vacuum this week's trades seem quite reasonable to me. 

Well I’m not looking at this in a vacuum, I guess you can say this trade is the straw that broke the camel’s back!

But all of these moves together don’t seem to be making a whole lot of sense.

Now there are reports that Gettleman wants to turn the offense into the power running game he had in Carolina. Really? It’s a damn passing league now, oh and the best runner the Panthers had during their Super Bowl run was Cam Newton. Boy is the league going to be really surprised when they see Eli tearing up the rushing yards.

 

[Jello_Biafra]

The object of the game is to win, we all know that. What Gettleman is doing is taking a team, that was a Foles signing away from being a top 5 offense, to a team rebuilding by keeping old players. It's like that one guy in your dynasty league. What a joke.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

The object of the game is to win, we all know that. What Gettleman is doing is taking a team, that was a Foles signing away from being a top 5 offense, to a team rebuilding by keeping old players. It's like that one guy in your dynasty league. What a joke.

When the Jets aren’t the most dysfunctional team in town - you have issues.

 

[DropKick]

The object of the game is to win, we all know that. What Gettleman is doing is taking a team, that was a Foles signing away from being a top 5 offense, to a team rebuilding by keeping old players. It's like that one guy in your dynasty league. What a joke.

You have my sympathy jello...  For the record, I had a guy in my dynasty league that kept Barry Sanders rostered for at least 5 years after he retired.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

What is whooshing over your head is that the 1.17 pick would have a fraction of the cap cost of OBJ. So you've got to ask yourself is 1.17 + a $15M/year player worth the same as OBJ ($18M/year)? When you take into account that OBJ was unhappy in NY and has only played 16 games once in his career, I'm going to call that close enough.

I'm not excusing all of the Giants moves - as Dr.O pointed out earlier, half of their moves scream "rebuilding" and half scream "win now." The front office has been terribly inconsistent in their approach. So I don't like the body of work done by them, but in a vacuum this week's trades seem quite reasonable to me. 

I think the cap hit for these elite players is often overblown when you look at what teams end up spending on instead.

For the same price of Beckham you could sign both Kwon Alexander and Danny Amendola!

I'd rather just spend the big bucks on the superstar than accumulate a pile of bums for the same price like my Dolphins have been doing for a few decades now.

 

[Sebowski]

The object of the game is to win, we all know that. What Gettleman is doing is taking a team, that was a Foles signing away from being a top 5 offense , to a team rebuilding by keeping old players. It's like that one guy in your dynasty league. What a joke.

 

[Soulfly3]

dorsey is writing his 30 for 30

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Is that really that funny? Foles, Barkley, Beckham, Sheppard and Engram behind an improved o-line? maybe not Top 5, but that's a pretty dangerous offense.

 

[Yenrub]

What is whooshing over your head is that the 1.17 pick would have a fraction of the cap cost of OBJ. So you've got to ask yourself is 1.17 + a $15M/year player worth the same as OBJ ($18M/year)? When you take into account that OBJ was unhappy in NY and has only played 16 games once in his career, I'm going to call that close enough.

I'm not excusing all of the Giants moves - as Dr.O pointed out earlier, half of their moves scream "rebuilding" and half scream "win now." The front office has been terribly inconsistent in their approach. So I don't like the body of work done by them, but in a vacuum this week's trades seem quite reasonable to me. 

Just one more thing, in a vacuum the 15m in additional cap space seems great.

I saw someplace that the Giants are now projected to have 100m in cap space in 2020

If they didn’t make this move, they would have 85m (plus OBJ) in cap space in 2020

As of now they don’t have any WR under contract for 2020. Shepard’s rookie deal ends this season.

 

[Bobcat10]

Is that really that funny? Foles, Barkley, Beckham, Sheppard and Engram behind an improved o-line? maybe not Top 5, but that's a pretty dangerous offense.

There's probably a strong contingent of people that still don't believe in full time starter Foles.  I'm surprised it took 4 hours for somebody to respond to that part of the post.

 

[Sebowski]

Is that really that funny? Foles, Barkley, Beckham, Sheppard and Engram behind an improved o-line? maybe not Top 5, but that's a pretty dangerous offense.

You think Foles is THAT much of an upgrade over Eli? From bottom of the league to top 5? Foles would make them better for sure, but top 5 is ridiculous. Engram and Shepard are JAGs. 

 

[Dr. Octopus]

You think Foles is THAT much of an upgrade over Eli? From bottom of the league to top 5? Foles would make them better for sure, but top 5 is ridiculous. Engram and Shepard are JAGs. 

I think Foles is a pretty significant upgrade from a 38 year old Eli - but more importantly, the Giants o-line improved as the season went on and they added a Pro Bowl level OG via trade. Look at the last 4 to 5 games of last season where the offense started putting up big points - and that was with Beckham missing games. 

And if you see Engram as a JAG, I don't know what to say. Sheppard is also solid as a complimentary piece but I can at least allow you to call him a JAG.

Sure top 5 may have been a bit hyperbolic by Jello but it was hardly outlandish.

 

[FF Ninja]

I think the cap hit for these elite players is often overblown when you look at what teams end up spending on instead.

For the same price of Beckham you could sign both Kwon Alexander and Danny Amendola!

I'd rather just spend the big bucks on the superstar than accumulate a pile of bums for the same price like my Dolphins have been doing for a few decades now.

Really depends on the GM. I remember the Robert Woods contract looking expensive initially based on his career up to that point, but in hindsight it was cheap. If they were to make some signings like that, the $15M could go a long way OR if they were to draft the next OBJ at 1.17, the trade would be a massive win via hindsight (5 years @ $3M/yr vs. $18M/year for a headache). The odds are against that, obviously, but there is some enticing WR talent in this draft. Would be nice to let a rookie WR learn in 2019 before bringing in their QB-of-the-future in 2020. Could hit the ground running in 2020 with a good OL, a new QB, Barkley, Engram, and a 2nd year WR.

 

[Jello_Biafra]

You think Foles is THAT much of an upgrade over Eli? From bottom of the league to top 5? Foles would make them better for sure, but top 5 is ridiculous. Engram and Shepard are JAGs. 

Bottom of the league? They were 15th in PF. Why couldn't they improve with Foles?

 

[Bobcat10]

Bottom of the league? They were 15th in PF. Why couldn't they improve with Foles?

They could.

But that's not what you originally said.

 

[Kitrick Taylor]

IMO Beckham is in line for a monster season.  With Kitchens and Monken designing this offense, I think they will put up 500+ points this year.  

172 Targets/109/1612/16

 

[Sebowski]

Bottom of the league? They were 15th in PF. Why couldn't they improve with Foles?

Ok. Bottom was harsh. I saw them on some list at around 17 or 19. But, bottom was harsh. 

I think Foles would make them a much better team. Win more games for sure. Points scored though? Maybe not an improvement at all. Foles is more manager than gunslinger. I don't think he'd make a marked difference in that stat. 

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Why did a rebuilding team sign a 38 year old safety to replace Collins? I think the issue is Gettleman's moves are all over the place. Keep Eli, draft a RB, trade for Ogletree, sign an over the hill Stewart and the Cardinal's safety (all win now moves)...and then also making rebuild moves like this one? So which direction are they really going?

and now they sign a 31 year old Golden Tate to a 4 year deal.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Is that really that funny? Foles, Barkley, Beckham, Sheppard and Engram behind an improved o-line? maybe not Top 5, but that's a pretty dangerous offense.

"replace Eli plus an assortment of Oline tweaks" does not definitively equate to top 5 offense.

go back and watch Foles first half of last year.

ironically, he's a lot like Eli...he does his best work in the post-season.

it's going to be irritating to watch his new "teammates" in Jacksonville throw him under the bus at the first sign of adversity.  he's a great guy going to a toxic environment.  but I digress.

 

[Jello_Biafra]

and now they sign a 31 year old Golden Tate to a 4 year deal.

I'm actually happy they got someone to play WR, but Tate? Isn't he lined up in the slot mostly? If so, we've already got that covered with Shep and Engram. Not exactly sure where Tate fills in.

I think they are going for Rosen next. I didn't watch him play much, but I haven't heard anything good about him.

 

[Jello_Biafra]

Ok. Bottom was harsh. I saw them on some list at around 17 or 19. But, bottom was harsh. 

I think Foles would make them a much better team. Win more games for sure. Points scored though? Maybe not an improvement at all. Foles is more manager than gunslinger. I don't think he'd make a marked difference in that stat. 

I was being hyperbolic. So were you. The point is that they had a very good offense and now they don't.

 

[Jello_Biafra]

"replace Eli plus an assortment of Oline tweaks" does not definitively equate to top 5 offense.

go back and watch Foles first half of last year.

ironically, he's a lot like Eli...he does his best work in the post-season.

it's going to be irritating to watch his new "teammates" in Jacksonville throw him under the bus at the first sign of adversity.  he's a great guy going to a toxic environment.  but I digress.

Fine. Top 10 offense. You guys happy?

 

[Peak]

Good info from Glazer on the trade and his "hot take" of OBJ getting traded this offseason.

 

[RC94]

Fine. Top 10 offense. You guys happy?

Or instead of Foles they draft Haskins/Murray.  Wouldn’t be a top offense his rookie year but OBJ is young and you develop the rookie QB and OBJ still has many prime years left and that’s a top offense.  Either way I agree with your general point 

 

[Bracie Smathers]

ESPN did an in-depth on the Beckham trade.

The Giants did not shop Cleveland's offer.  The Niners felt like they had time to make their 'best offer' since the draft was two months away but they never got a chance.

'This can't be real': How Browns pulled off Odell Beckham Jr. trade

...the Giants' unwillingness to make last-minute phone calls about Beckham, and the San Francisco 49ers, who left the entire process disappointed.

...the Giants' relationship with Beckham had hemorrhaged throughout the 2018 season. ... The 49ers were monitoring the situation and very interested.

...Before the Browns ... It was known at the combine the 49ers wanted Beckham. Badly. Gettleman and 49ers general manager John Lynch had "numerous conversations" over the course of weeks. Lynch said during a recent interview with KNBR that the 49ers having the No. 2 overall pick worked against them in this case. "[The Giants] wanted that badly," Lynch said.

The 49ers were willing to move from No. 2 to No. 6 in a deal that included Beckham. They just weren't willing to relinquish the No. 2 overall pick straight up without a pick swap. Pro Bowl defensive tackle DeForest Buckner's name was also brought up at some point in the conversations between Gettleman and Lynch. The 49ers didn't want to go there.

...They believed their best offer had yet to come. They too were being patient. The draft was almost two months away when they left the combine.

...it was Cleveland and, curiously, nobody else. Gettleman wound up agreeing to the trade deal without shopping the Browns' deal or trying to lure in any last-minute suitors.

The 49ers were stunned. Lynch and Gettleman had multiple conversations spanning weeks. Despite the 49ers monitoring the situation closely, they ultimately never heard from the Giants before the trade was made. Gettleman's contact with Lynch ended the days prior to the conversations with Cleveland. It's strongly believed the 49ers would have been willing to offer more for a wide receiver of Beckham's stature, according to a league source.

 

[Soulfly3]

maybe, just MAYBE giants didnt wanna get burned and get "stuck" w backham one more season. 

who's to say the niners didnt pull something off for an AJ Green or otherwise... and the Browns rescinded their offer/went after someone else

hindsight is always 20/20. but here's a thought... don't get cute, and pull off a deal when you have the chance.

"our best offer was yet to come"... ya, well.. it didnt.

 

[ghostguy123]

So............what would they have offered that would have been our offer? They forgot to mention that part in their whiny rant.  

 

[daveR]

So............what would they have offered that would have been our offer? They forgot to mention that part in their whiny rant.  

Right.  The report seems to say that they wouldn't part with anything of significance, like their #1 or Buckner.  I can see why Gettleman might think he was getting nowhere there.

 

[ghostguy123]

Right.  The report seems to say that they wouldn't part with anything of significance, like their #1 or Buckner.  I can see why Gettleman might think he was getting nowhere there.

And even if he did , who's the say the Browns wouldn't have added another little sweetener.  

But if Gettleman and Lynch had been talking for weeks, then that's on Lynch.  

 

[Ilov80s]

I agree we lack all the context to know for sure here. It does sound bad coupled with how Gettelman didn't even take phone calls for the #2 pick in the last draft. They might have been able to get a kings ransom for Darnold. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Jimmy Graham – TE – NO

How many of these guys played their position to the level OBJ plays WR??

This might be the only (close) qualifier.

And actually the Saints dealt him at the same point in his career.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

On 3/13/2019 at 3:24 PM, Yenrub said:
Jimmy Graham – TE – NO

On 3/13/2019 at 3:24 PM, Yenrub said:
How many of these guys played their position to the level OBJ plays WR??

This might be the only (close) qualifier.

And actually the Saints dealt him at the same point in his career.

Jimmy Graham went FROM Drew Brees and the New Orleans heavy passing attack TO Russell Wilson and the run-heavy win-with-tough-D Seattle attack.  Graham was 28 to OBJ's 26.  Mayfield who just broke the all-time NFL rookie TD passing record (27 with 3,725 yards)  in only 13 starts.  He has thrown a TD pass in every start and that streak is still going.  

Look at the effect both players had on their starting QBs before, during, and (if applicable) after.

      Drew Brees played in the league 9 years, 8 as a starter before he got Graham and posted one 5,000 yard passing season and two 30+ TD seasons. 

When had Graham for 5 seasons and posted 3 consecutive 5,000 yard passing seasons and exceeded 30 TDs every year with two years over 40 TDs. 

In 4 seasons without Graham he has one 5,000 yard passing season and hasn't had a 40 TD season and has slipped below 30 TDs one year

     Russell Wilson played in the league 3 seasons without Graham and never had a 4,000 yard passing or a 30+ TD season. 

In the 3 seasons with Graham he had two 4,000 yard passing seasons and two 30+ TD seasons. 

In the 1 year without Graham he has zero 4,000 yard passing seasons but has one 30+ TD season.

    Eli Manning played in the league 10 seasons before he got OBJ and posted three 4,000 yard passing seasons and 0 30+ TD seasons. 

In the 5 seasons with OBJ he threw for 4,000 yards in four of the five years and the one year he did not reach 4,000 passing yards OBJ got injured and only started 2 games.  He had two seasons with 30+ TD passes and the one year where OBJ only started two games he did not reach 20 TDs.

-------------------

Both Graham and OBJ had a positive effect on their veteran QBs but Graham came from a high powered passing attack to a run dominated offense. 

The big difference with OBJ going to Cleveland is that OBJ is going from Eli Manning to Baker Mayfield  who is entering his second season after a record breaking rookie year.  OBJ is not going from a high powered passing attack to a run dominated offense and he should benefit from better QB play.