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Betsy Devos....probably going to need her own thread. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Sabertooth
- Start date
Where is this coming from? Not from this thread.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
There's a lot of real estate between "dumb ####" status that's going to result in poor decisions that adversely affect this country and "end of the world." DaVos is located somewhere in the middle between those two territories. And acting like she isn't harmful and it's no big deal who advises the president on silly matters like our education system only happens when you're being a partisan #####.
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msommer
Footballguy
No, surely you don't mean Max? S/He's and independent!
How do we know this? S/He said it and thus it must be so.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
This doesn't pass shonuff's smell test for staying on topic. I'm surprised he hasn't lectured you yet.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
http://www.freep.com/story/news/education/2017/01/20/michigan-school-closings-list/96818968/
If anyone wants to follow actual policies shaped by Devos. So these 38 schools (2 charters, 36 public) are up for potential closure due to 3 consecutive years of low performance. We can certainly debate if they are low performing because it's a bad school or because of the students they are serving. So the State will now look to implement the plans of closing the schools, replacing half the staff, putting a "CEO" in charge or converting it to a charter school. Thoughts?
If anyone wants to follow actual policies shaped by Devos. So these 38 schools (2 charters, 36 public) are up for potential closure due to 3 consecutive years of low performance. We can certainly debate if they are low performing because it's a bad school or because of the students they are serving. So the State will now look to implement the plans of closing the schools, replacing half the staff, putting a "CEO" in charge or converting it to a charter school. Thoughts?
Statorama
gangster
What's been tried thus far just isn't working. Anyone that is impressed with the current state of our public education system is delusional.
i welcome a fresh perspective, some new ideas, and *gasp* some actual reform of a broken system.
We can always go back to this crappy system if things don't work out.
(full disclosure I'm a states rights guy, so IMO the DOE is an unnecessary federal function to begin with)
i welcome a fresh perspective, some new ideas, and *gasp* some actual reform of a broken system.
We can always go back to this crappy system if things don't work out.
(full disclosure I'm a states rights guy, so IMO the DOE is an unnecessary federal function to begin with)
Ilov80s
Footballguy
What specifically isn't working? Why is our current system unimpressive? What new ideas do you like?
It's just pure ideology in the end. We do better in education rankings than we do in health rankings but all the right can harp about is privatizing education because it's such an abject failure. It has nothing to do with logic, it has nothing to do with improving the system. It's about shifting power from the collective to the corporations. Partially i think it's about teacher's being the one last great union and they won't be happy until everyone is making $12 an hour
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Statorama
gangster
I know this is trolling, but I'll play along. The easiest answer to your first two questions is how our children compare internationally. Despite the massive resources poured into the system our children are simply not competitive on a national stage.
I grew up in unbelievable poverty, and went to some horrific public schools. One thing that consistently rang true was that a handful of students in class that were actually there to learn were overwhelmed by the clowns and troublemakers in class. Anything that allows the handful to blossom is a plus for me. Providing the parents of kids that want to learn with an opportunity to place those children in an education-friendly environment is a plus for me. What parent wouldn't want that for their children? Parents need MORE choices, not less. DeVos is about providing that choice to parents.
Providing inner-city children with an opportunity to learn in a private school environment warms my heart, and it's a choice that I wish had been available to my parents.
People should not be afraid of providing parents with an opportunity to send their children to a school of their choosing. Choice choice choice!
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Why would discussing specific issues be trolling?
I don't want to discuss how American kids compare on standardized tests to other countries. We know where that goes and it will likely end up with us still disagreeing.
To your point about choice, I am in agreement that some schools are overrun by disruptive kids, incompetent or neglectful parents and an incompetent uninvolved community. I work at a school in Michigan that is "school of choice". This means we accept students from other districts. About half our students come from Detroit. It's great. Choice is important. My issue with Devos is that choice in Michigan has become for profit and without accountability. I have brought this up over and over and over in these threads and nobody will defend it. Maybe you can? Her track record and plans are very clear. For profit charters without the same accountability as public schools.
Once again, I want to state that choice comes with a downside. It turns parents and students into customers. In Michigan schools fight for kids like businesses fight for customers. Schools have had to start hiring marketing companies, PR people, spend money on ads, etc. Each year our advertising and PR budget has grown. That's money not going towards any actual educating. Also, the customer is always right. There are a lot of schools around that have realized that if they make school easy, give all the kids good grades, get lax on behavior so the kids can do what they want it will make the kids and parents happy. Happy parents and happy kids stay in that school and even tell other families about it. So while choice does make schools more competitive, we know that sometimes corners are cut in competitions. I have no doubt many kids are getting a better education because of choice in Michigan. I also know many kids are getting a watered down education because of choice.
Reg Lllama of Brixton
Footballguy
No, no it isn't.
Simply put...if you want American schools to be like those in Japan or Denmark or wherever, our entire society will have to change.
timschochet
Footballguy
When I was a kid, public education was just fine in white suburbs, and not so great in the inner city. I'm not really sure this basic formula has changed much, except that both have gotten better- in the suburbs MUCH better.
(Case in point- when I went to high school in the 80s, it was standard to take Algebra as a freshman, then Geometry, then Algebra 2/Trig, and if you were REALLY bright you might go on from there to pre-Calculus and Calculus. My daughter took Algebra and Geometry in middle school, Algebra 2/Trig as a freshman, and now she is a junior and taking AP Calculus. So obviously things have improved.)
We should spend more money in the inner city. And maybe go back to busing.
(Case in point- when I went to high school in the 80s, it was standard to take Algebra as a freshman, then Geometry, then Algebra 2/Trig, and if you were REALLY bright you might go on from there to pre-Calculus and Calculus. My daughter took Algebra and Geometry in middle school, Algebra 2/Trig as a freshman, and now she is a junior and taking AP Calculus. So obviously things have improved.)
We should spend more money in the inner city. And maybe go back to busing.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Alg-Geo-Alg2 is still pretty standard for HS. We have all kids take algebra in middle school but they have to score high enough on their final for it count for HS credit. Most kids retake algebra in high school.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
Too many parrot the idea that the schools are the problem. Society is the issue and clean that up, the schools will improve. No one wants to touch the society part and then think things will be all better once the schools are taken over. All that does is weaken education where it needs to be strengthened and pockets private businesses with tax payer money. It's sickening but if I can lower my taxes by $5, then damnit, give me my $5 back.
yak651
Footballguy
So it's the schools fault that a bunch of kids don't want to be there and are disruptive? Ever think the reason private schools score better because they don't have to take these kids? Public schools can't deny these kids or kids with special needs, this brings down scores. This lady doesn't want it to be required that these kids are allowed to go the private/charter schools(can't deny their admission), nor did she want to answer the question of whether a school that accepts public money be held to the same standards/ratings of "traditional" public schools.
fatness
Footballguy
Statorama
gangster
I'm certain DeVos has learned some things along the way during her initial experiences in Michigan.
Look guys, we can always come back to the crap we have now, but I'm looking forward to someone actually attempting education reform. Does it hurt to give choice a chance? There is no way that a kid in an average private school will be less educated than a kid in an average public school.
i also keep hearing "no accountability" thrown around. Private schools have the ultimate accountability, which is being accountable to their customers (parents).
Now is the time to provide parents with the freedom to choose where their children are educated.
Look guys, we can always come back to the crap we have now, but I'm looking forward to someone actually attempting education reform. Does it hurt to give choice a chance? There is no way that a kid in an average private school will be less educated than a kid in an average public school.
i also keep hearing "no accountability" thrown around. Private schools have the ultimate accountability, which is being accountable to their customers (parents).
Now is the time to provide parents with the freedom to choose where their children are educated.
timschochet
Footballguy
No. If the state has certain standards, why should taxpayer money go to schools that don't measure up to those standards? And why should my money go towards religious teaching? Not buying it.
Prince Myshkin
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
A. It's not a crap system, it's the system that helped make America the most powerful economy in the world.
B. There is nothing stopping choice now. Plenty of States allow for choices. If the government gives out money for education, then there should be ways to track how that money is spent and what the results are. Any conservative would surely agree with that.
C. I guarantee you there are some kids in average public schools being better educated than some kids in private school. Your absolutist statement here is pretty revealing of some serious prejudice. Public schools might be really bad where you live, but it's a big country and the system works in many places.
Prince Myshkin
Footballguy
Some questions re: the bolded. So parents want that for their children and are given the choice to go to these private schools. How do these private schools deal with the influx (potentially huge influx, because "what parent wouldn't want that for their children")? They can't...so they pick out a handful and accept and reject the rest? What happens to the rest of the students who were either unable to get into the private school, don't have transportation to get to these private schools, or didn't have parents that cared enough to try to get them in? They are left in a school with fewer resources and a worse learning environment than what they had to start with. All while parents that were paying for their students to go to the private schools to start with now get vouchers instead? Yeah, seems like a great way equalize the playing field for all students and families...
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I don't know who is fishing, but I'll bring the beers if I get an invite to the fish fry.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
So what happens to the clowns? They just get left behind? The neighborhood schools get forgotten and worse? Why not fix the current schools?
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
DOE plays a strong role in shaping education across the country. I think most of the conversation here has been relevant. What do you think has been irrelevant?
Statorama
gangster
...and I'm sure DeVos has learned what worked and what didn't. It's like a customer piloting new software. You work out the bugs and release to a larger audience.
Statorama
gangster
Due to a variety of societal conditions the troublemakers will always be troublemakers. Let's start with providing those that want to learn with an education-friendly environment and work our way down. We've spent far too much time, effort, and money working from the bottom up.
Lets allow parents who have children that want to learn with a choice to send them to an environment they can thrive in, rather than stunt their potential in public schools.
As for the troublemakers, the world needs ditch diggers too. The only way you can clean up public schools is to go full Joe Clarke, and the left won't allow that.
Statorama
gangster
Private schools aren't necessarily religious. But to a larger point, you're talking about what I'm talking about....choice. If you prefer your child to go to public school you should have that choice. If you want to send them to a Catholic school you should have that choice. That's all I'm arguing here is that parents shouldn't be given one choice and told that's just the way it is.
Let parents choose. We are the land of the free, let's start acting like it.
Statorama
gangster
And Detroit used to be the car making capital of the world (no unions tangents please).
We need to reform the education system now, rather than sitting back remembering the good old days
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
joffer
Footballguy
Statorama
gangster
You have a tie to the teachers union so I know you'll never come around. I'm not saying that's a bad thing or to be confrontational, but it is what it is. I'm simply trying to help neutral parties understand that this is a battle to provide parents with an opportunity to send their children to a school of their choosing. This is a nightmare for someone with teachers union ties because it's essentially giving parents a choice of sending their kids to a school that is staffed with non-union personnel.
Dickies
Footballguy
You can send children to a school of your choosing, but it sounds like you just don't want people to have to pay for it.
The problem is that private schools can pick and choose their students and dump the low performers and behavior problems back to the public schools. What do we do with these students? We push them along through the system that they are disinterested in. We spend the bulk of our resources getting the bottom 10% up to basic standards when we should be spending more resources on enriching the top 50%. Obviously we cannot ignore the low performers and behavior problems, but what if we offered them an alternative?
I would propose that we have college prep that is similar to our current high school system, and vocational school for the students that are not on the college path or simply would prefer a trade school training. I fundamentally believe most of the behavior problems in school are because the kids are disinterested in being there. They just get pushed through the system and are left with no marketable skills in the workforce.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Come around to what? I support choice and I've said it over and over. I WORK AT A SCHOOL THAT IS A "SCHOOL OF CHOICE" AND IT WOULD NOT EXIST WITHOUT THIS POLICY THAT I LIKE.
Statorama
gangster
I'd be down with this. If we're being honest with ourselves, some kids just aren't wired for "book learnin". If we established a pathway for those kids to learn a trade in something they're interested in (and maybe even shown an aptitude for) I think it would benefit them (and society as a whole).
Statorama
gangster
So what are we arguing about? I want an expansion of choice and you want an expansion of choice. Sounds like we have plenty of common ground.
Dickies
Footballguy
Problem is that politicians (on both sides) want to paint this rosy picture that everyone should be able to go to college. They shouldn't. I am a big Bernie guy and this is one of the areas I disagree with him most on. The teacher's union would probably fight a system like this (I am pro-teacher union and my wife is a teacher) because it would disrupt the system and likely diminish some jobs, while shifting jobs to vocational training. It would be a huge fundamental change to our education system, but this is very similar to what Germany and many other countries that are outperforming us do.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Dickies
Footballguy
Yea, I don't know any teachers that disagree with this, but I would imagine the union would be against it.
Statorama
gangster
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