ren hoek
Footballguy
Me and iluvbeer99 were talking about trading a bitcoin around $2300 or so a while back. It was very particular back and forth around that price point. How could either of us in a million years figure it would x8 from there?
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Bitcoin-Explain to me how to buy these things (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Sheriff Bart
- Start date
ren hoek
Footballguy
![[icon]](/data/avatars/m/5/5167.jpg?1660313464){kind=avatar}
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Insoxicated
So are BTC backers in here thinking of it as a Currency, or an investment vehicle?
Couple of concerns I have with mass acceptance of BTC as currency:
VOLATILITY: People like their currency to be stable. wide fluctuations of currency is a sign of instability. Sure it's nice when it goes up, but most folks don't have the stomach for thier retirement account (for those who plan financially) or their rent check (for those who live paycheck to paycheck) to be swinging even small amounts. From an investment perspective, the "Get Rich Quick" mentality is as American as apple pie, but we like our money stable.
ADOPTION: One only needs to look as far as contactless payments to see that Americans are VERY slow to adopt new payment paradigms. Apple, Google, and other major consortiums have been pushing adoption of these wireless payment protocols for years now, but adoption rates by stores (in the form of putting in suitable hardware) and consumers (in utilization), is very low. An argument could be made that "this pay by phone" infrastructure being built is laying the groundwork for Virtual currency.... but I think the road is long and rife with obstacles.
Hell look how slow the chip card adoption has been and that #### was effectively mandated by the government (via liability shift), and it's still been a disaster getting folks to adopt and the hardware in place. Does anyone think adoption of cryto-currencies will even have the advantage of that same push by the government to replace it's own currency? Hell. No.
Will BTC (or other coin) hang around? For sure. Will the amount of businesses who accept this currency increase (barring major hacks or technical incidents that undermine confidence)? Of course. Is there any real chance for a virtual currency to even remotely come close to unseating the USD (or other fiat currency) as anything close to a primary money system for the general public? Not anytime soon...
So, when I start seeing Market Cap of BTC (which is likely used in 0.00000001% of consumer goods/services transactions) approaching the amount of USD currency (the defacto Global currency) in circulation worldwide? Well.... I kinda have to laugh.
Couple of concerns I have with mass acceptance of BTC as currency:
VOLATILITY: People like their currency to be stable. wide fluctuations of currency is a sign of instability. Sure it's nice when it goes up, but most folks don't have the stomach for thier retirement account (for those who plan financially) or their rent check (for those who live paycheck to paycheck) to be swinging even small amounts. From an investment perspective, the "Get Rich Quick" mentality is as American as apple pie, but we like our money stable.
ADOPTION: One only needs to look as far as contactless payments to see that Americans are VERY slow to adopt new payment paradigms. Apple, Google, and other major consortiums have been pushing adoption of these wireless payment protocols for years now, but adoption rates by stores (in the form of putting in suitable hardware) and consumers (in utilization), is very low. An argument could be made that "this pay by phone" infrastructure being built is laying the groundwork for Virtual currency.... but I think the road is long and rife with obstacles.
Hell look how slow the chip card adoption has been and that #### was effectively mandated by the government (via liability shift), and it's still been a disaster getting folks to adopt and the hardware in place. Does anyone think adoption of cryto-currencies will even have the advantage of that same push by the government to replace it's own currency? Hell. No.
Will BTC (or other coin) hang around? For sure. Will the amount of businesses who accept this currency increase (barring major hacks or technical incidents that undermine confidence)? Of course. Is there any real chance for a virtual currency to even remotely come close to unseating the USD (or other fiat currency) as anything close to a primary money system for the general public? Not anytime soon...
So, when I start seeing Market Cap of BTC (which is likely used in 0.00000001% of consumer goods/services transactions) approaching the amount of USD currency (the defacto Global currency) in circulation worldwide? Well.... I kinda have to laugh.
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Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
culdeus
Footballguy
I think you overlooked one issue, for a vendor, someone like Steam, for example. They get a BTC payment, currently the FTX fees are up to $12 a TX. TWELVE ####### DOLLARS.
So they need to batch hold BTC to wait for a more reasonable fee which is more in line with the standard industry. While waiting to get enough BTC to cross the threshold to even get to a twice what a MasterCard would charge the BTC price could swing. So now you have to line item currency fluctuation on your accounting, alot.
I mean Visa/MC just seem way easier than that. In any context.
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Insoxicated
culdeus
Footballguy
Here is a sample article discussing these points:
https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/6/16743220/valve-steam-bitcoin-game-store-payment-method-crypto-volatility
Steam CEO Comments:
Capella
Footballguy
culdeus
Footballguy
I think three things are in play here
- Real runup started in the Feb-Apr 2016 timeframe. Right as the first paradise papers dropped and people started dropping dead. BTC seemed an attractive dumping point for cash for those that didn't want to show up in the papers or wanted out of aruba.
- Then, it started to become obvious that mining costs were trending on unsustainable. People could power whole towns for what it costs to get a BTC. Hype train started.
- Then on top of that, people figured out that maybe up to half of the coins in existence were lost, probably forever.
Peyton Marino
Footballguy
Is this something that can be worked out eventually? In such a speculative instrument, much of the price will be based on future expectations.
JerseyToughGuys
Tough Guy
Raider Nation said:
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
Thought a little more about this, too obvious, need to be a slight contrarian - slightly revised thesis.
Bitcoin is currently an unregulated anonymous marketplace with a ton of retail money floating around, when they crash it (which is most likely the end goal, being that it is viewed as a threat) they know confidence will be gone and this amazing playground that has been created for them will be gone too, they'd like to keep it alive for a little longer.
We're viewed as dumb money across all asset classes, no difference here - all of us, no insult to anyone, myself included. We're swimming around, surfing in the waves, having fun, the sharks just entered the water - they attack and feast right away, everyone runs out of the water... I don't think that's how they're going to play it.
They can move it up and down and keep it in a range over and over, all while making 5x on one side and losing 1x on the other - picking swimmer after swimmer off without an overt attack on everyone making people run for the shores. The funds involved don't want to move it too aggressively in either direction bc that will cause other smart money into the mix coming for theirs. Rinse/repeat over and over - once the regulators come in, they'll leave, it'll crash.
For now, they view this as the easiest money they'll ever make, and I bet they're right.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Blockstream's solution is to introduce a second layer on top of the bitcoin protocol, called Lightning Network. I'm not real clear on how it works exactly, but basically users open 'payment channels' with each other and can send/receive instantly. I'm not sure how it works around fees and stuff on the actual blockchain, or how it records txes on the ledger.
My friend who sold me my first ever btc (.08 for like $250 around 2013) thru localbitcoins seems to be a big fan of the tech and has been using it on testnet. I've watched videos meant to explain how it works and I'm still completely clueless about it.
ren hoek
Footballguy
I believe the feds can trace bitcoin transactions and have been able to for years. So I'm not sure which states they think they're fooling with that. Did you mean 2017?
I don't think the environmental cost really coincides with the price rise. Or I don't see why it should give bitcoin value anyway.
It's hard to say how many coins have been lost. To me, the only money entering at this price point is dumb money and the investment class with some type of insider knowledge. But I thought that around 6/7k too. The volatility and dysfunction of bitcoin during peak traffic just seems like a 'fire with the exits closed' scenario waiting to happen.
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
Litecoin up 35% today.
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Insoxicated
culdeus
Footballguy
No, I mean the 2016 timeframe. The breakout IMO really started in early 2016 but was slow. tbh, I don't know what motivation people have and think they can get away with, but the timing there is pretty unusual. You need a lot of new players coming in and holding BTC for a reason. I'm struggling to find one.
Yeah just wait until wall street gets some shorts on this thing.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
ren hoek
Footballguy
You're selling the real reason crypto and blockchain came to existence short here. In the original genesis block, Satoshi wrote:
The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks.
Bitcoin was designed as a means to free people from the failure of central banking and international monetary systems. The problem for bitcoin is it's ceased to do those things in a practical or useful way. The whole thing is running on the illusion that bitcoin still has a meaningful usecase.
Gawain
Footballguy
Is there a list of places that are still taking bitcoin? A lot of precious metal vendors accept bitcoin currently at a par with cash.
I'm not sure you can say that about any other *coin.
When this finally starts its inevitable dive off a cliff, anyone stuck in it will be clicking the sell button repeatedly and there's a real good chance it fails to execute.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-big-bitcoin-problem-just-discovered-211912644.html
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-big-bitcoin-problem-just-discovered-211912644.html
ren hoek
Footballguy
There's quite a few. Steam used to, but withdrew it as a method of payment the other day.
https://99bitcoins.com/who-accepts-bitcoins-payment-companies-stores-take-bitcoins/
There's also a growing market for other coins as payment. I think Overstock accepts several.
https://acceptbitcoin.cash
https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/10-companies-and-businesses-that-accept-ethereum-599996/
chet
Footballguy
IMO, the majority of people don't care about any of that. They're in it to make $. They don't think in BTC or any crypto--they think in $ or euros or yen.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Yes. And tulip bulbs ran on the illusion that tulip bulbs still had a meaningful usecase.
Despite the many claims in here that I don't understand bitcoin, that's not true. Years ago I was labeled as a
I posted so much about how the Federal Reserve system will end. I fully expected something like Bitcoin to replace it. So when bitcoin came out I gave it serious consideration... for years. It's a fantastic idea, but it's far too consumer friendly. Governments have major issues with it. Businesses have major issues with it. And while the business issues could be worked out, there is one major government issue that will never be worked out, and that is the need to increase the amount of the currency in circulation. Some bitcoin enthusiasts think that's a huge asset for bitcoin, but it's actually an attribute that will be death of it, especially given bitcoins can be lost and never replaced. My prediction is governments around the world will create a world reserve currency to replace the US dollar. It will likely be similar to bitcoin, but address the issues governments and businesses have with bitcoin. A lot of bitcoin enthusiasts won't like that at all, but that's because they like the anarchy of Bitcoin. Governments and businesses don't, for obvious reasons. When the world governments implement it, it will be the death of bitcoin, and it also won't be good for the US at all. Because now that the world no longer uses the dollar as the world's reserve currency, Americans will now have to start producing as much as we consume. Ever since all world currencies were pegged to the dollar back in 1944 at the Bretton Woods agreement, the US has to buy more from the world than it sells to the world so that the world gets the increase of dollars it needs as the world economy grows. A world version of Bitcoin that can be inflated ends that, and puts all countries on an equal playing field money wise.
Capella
Footballguy
https://www.theonion.com/bitcoin-plunge-reveals-possible-vulnerabilities-in-craz-1821134169/amp?__twitter_impression=true
"This should serve as a clear indicator of how susceptible weird invisible money that only exists online can be to sudden fluctuations in the market,” said economist Bernard Gregerson, explaining that the 18 percent decline in bitcoin’s value might be a predictor of more drastic fluctuations to come in the price of bizarre make-believe cryptocurrency that has no reality in the physical realm."
"This should serve as a clear indicator of how susceptible weird invisible money that only exists online can be to sudden fluctuations in the market,” said economist Bernard Gregerson, explaining that the 18 percent decline in bitcoin’s value might be a predictor of more drastic fluctuations to come in the price of bizarre make-believe cryptocurrency that has no reality in the physical realm."
ren hoek
Footballguy
Right. Tulips do nothing like that. All it would take is an update to the client to allow bitcoin to be divisible a few more decimal points beyond a hundredth of a million. And if inflation proves to be necessary over a deflationary coin, capital would just move from btc to ether or something.Yes. And tulip bulbs ran on the illusion that tulip bulbs still had a meaningful usecase.
Despite the many claims in here that I don't understand bitcoin, that's not true. Years ago I was labeled as a
My prediction is governments around the world will create a world reserve currency to replace the US dollar. It will likely be similar to bitcoin, but address the issues governments and businesses have with bitcoin. A lot of bitcoin enthusiasts won't like that at all, but that's because they like the anarchy of Bitcoin. Governments and businesses don't, for obvious reasons. When the world governments implement it, it will be the death of bitcoin, and it also won't be good for the US at all. Because now that the world no longer uses the dollar as the world's reserve currency, Americans will now have to start producing as much as we consume. Ever since all world currencies were pegged to the dollar back in 1944 at the Bretton Woods agreement, the US has to buy more from the world than it sells to the world so that the world gets the increase of dollars it needs as the world economy grows. A world version of Bitcoin that can be inflated ends that, and puts all countries on an equal playing field money wise.
Not that it really matters. Clearly the bitcoin devs have no interest in scaling it up for mass adoption, in fact they've essentially priced the poor out from ever participating. But that doesn't mean a better blockchain currency couldn't replace the financial system down the road.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
I completely agree a better currency could replace modern money mechanics down the road. In fact I think it's inevitable. One of the major purposes of inflating (and deflating) a currency is to regulate the velocity of money, which is needed for the stability of any currency, for exactly the reason you point out. Without it, people move in and out of the currency so fast that it causes volatility. And volatility kills trust in the currency.
The euro was a test case for this and by most accounts a failure. Getting world powers to agree on anything, even something as important as currency, will never happen.Yes. And tulip bulbs ran on the illusion that tulip bulbs still had a meaningful usecase.
Despite the many claims in here that I don't understand bitcoin, that's not true. Years ago I was labeled as a
My prediction is governments around the world will create a world reserve currency to replace the US dollar. It will likely be similar to bitcoin, but address the issues governments and businesses have with bitcoin. A lot of bitcoin enthusiasts won't like that at all, but that's because they like the anarchy of Bitcoin. Governments and businesses don't, for obvious reasons. When the world governments implement it, it will be the death of bitcoin, and it also won't be good for the US at all. Because now that the world no longer uses the dollar as the world's reserve currency, Americans will now have to start producing as much as we consume. Ever since all world currencies were pegged to the dollar back in 1944 at the Bretton Woods agreement, the US has to buy more from the world than it sells to the world so that the world gets the increase of dollars it needs as the world economy grows. A world version of Bitcoin that can be inflated ends that, and puts all countries on an equal playing field money wise.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Yep. Which is why I think most countries will stick with having there own currencies for national trade.
The new currency will replace the dollar for international trade.
PinkydaPimp
Footballguy
Litecoin having a day!
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
80% move in one day on no news. completely normal.
Anyone who thinks they know what's going on with crypto (bear or bull) is clueless.
Let's all be honest, none of us really understand this stuff. If someone thinks they understand it they might be delusional.
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The_Great_Dane
Footballguy
This is pretty much it. I have 400% profit right now. I can pull out my basis and just enjoy the ride but I am a gambler so this uncertainty in this doesn't bother me. I am not trying to make a little score but a huge one. If a bubble busts then it busts, it doesn't really concern me at this point as I am not risk averse and let's be real, you are not going to make a huge score without risk. So people yelling like chicken little is a positive to me.
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Peyton Marino
Footballguy
Litecoin's creator is going on squawk box Monday. I tried to buy some Thursday night but couldn't get 2fa verified in time at the exchange I wanted to use. Sucks to suck
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Ponzi schemes are incredibly profitable for those that get out before it collapses. In fact, the person who sells it last is the biggest winner (assuming they held on for a while). But the buyer they sold it to is also screwed the most. I think most people on this board realize what this is, and will not get stuck holding the bag. But a lot of the people that buy from the people on this board when they sell are going to get screwed. If you're a person who is perfectly fine with screwing over the person you sell to, then enjoy the ride. But let's be honest about this. It was never intended to be a ponzi scheme, but that's what it morphed into. Its intentions were moral, but now it's morphed into the immoral.
Same people selling bitcoin gains putting it into another coin and that coin jumps. Smart move if you want to try and hide capital gains from the IRS.
The Captain
Footballguy
It’s like I no longer understand English when I come into this thread. 
JerseyToughGuys
Tough Guy
JerseyToughGuys
Tough Guy
Any reason to sell via gdax instead of basic Coinbase?
Jefferson the Caregiver
Rebel Without A Pause
There are some big cracks in this whole thing, they are visible but the sell off hasn't really come yet. Still seems like a good short term play as there are definitely new speculators entering the market on a daily basis now. You have to be able to sell though and not be left holding the bag. I'd be concerned with all of the following just to start.
- vendors not accepting bitcoin because price is so volatile
- few vendors even accepting bitcoin at all
- transactions taking long time to process and get approved
- exchanges not being able to handle the traffic on high sell volume and going offline, assuming this is even really a tech problem
- expensive and not energy efficient to mine, will there always be an incentive here
- influx of all these new coins
- high potential for fraud
- no regulations
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PinkydaPimp
Footballguy
JerseyToughGuys
Tough Guy
Ketamine Dreams
Footballguy
Is there a fund that shorts Bitcoin?
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
one has to warp the definition of a Ponzi scheme to call BTC one.
That said it could end up a failed experiment.
Will be interesting to see what happens over the next 3-5 years.
