Brady vs. Manning in the playoffs -- Round 4 (1 Viewer)

[moleculo]

So I'm not sure if anyone actually remembers the first half of the week 12 matchup.

-The Patriots elected to kick and shut down the broncos on their first drive quite handily, three and out.

-The Pats first possession the moved up the field just fine, averaging 5-6 yards per play -- until Ridley coughs up the ball and Von Miller returns it 60 yards for a touchdown.

-Broncos kickoff and on the first or second play of the drive Von Miller gets a pretty good sack on Brady, dislodging the ball which is recovered and returned to the 10 yard line. Moreno runs the ball twice for touchdown #2.

-Broncos kickoff and again on the first set of downs, Legarrette Blount coughs up the ball... recovered by the Broncos.

-The Broncos proceed to run the ball 8 times before kicking a field goal.

This was all in the first quarter.

Pats scored on every drive but one in the second half.

it was a bizarre game. like the ball had a slippery substance on it.

weather isnt looking like a factor, injuries on both sides have mounted up especially on defense. I dont belive Julius thomas played in the first game, Gronk did

a couple of other things happened too. One key event was DRC injuring his shoulder trying to pick off an errant hail-Mary pass at the end of the half. DRC was replaced by the rookie Kayvon Webster, who Brady picked on time and time again. In the second half, Brady threw for 263 yards and 3 TDs. it seemed to take JDR a few drives to adjust. After the Pats 3rd TD, they didn't have any drives over 35 yards. They had one TD after a Manning interception, a 12 play 34 yard FG drive, and then a bunch of punts, finally winning the game after Welker didn't call off the fair catch soon enough for Carter to get out of the way.

 

[Dancing Bear]

Manning is 10-11 in the Playoffs. The year the Colts won the Super Bowl he played mediocre ball and the DEFENSE led them the entire way to the Super Bowl victory.

He has proven time and time again that he cannot play well in the "big game". Look for him to falter again on Sunday.

Fox is 7-5 in the Playoffs. 5-3 with Carolina and 2-2 with Denver.

Brady on the other hand is 18-7 in the Playoffs. He has regularly risen to the "big game" and he and the Pats will prevail.

Belichick is 19-8 in the Playoffs. 1-1 with Cleveland, and 18-7 with New England.

 

[moleculo]

Manning is 10-11 in the Playoffs. The year the Colts won the Super Bowl he played mediocre ball and the DEFENSE led them the entire way to the Super Bowl victory.

??

in the AFCCG, Manning was 27/47, 349 yards, 1 passing TD, 1 rushing TD, and 1 int, including 3/4 for 57 yards during the game winning TD drive with ~2 minutes left against the #2 scoring D in the league. his defense, by the way, was ranked 23rd and allowed 27 points that game.

just sayin - not sure it's fair to point out that the DEFENSE led them through that game.

 

[Anarchy99]

Manning is 10-11 in the Playoffs. The year the Colts won the Super Bowl he played mediocre ball and the DEFENSE led them the entire way to the Super Bowl victory.

??

in the AFCCG, Manning was 27/47, 349 yards, 1 passing TD, 1 rushing TD, and 1 int, including 3/4 for 57 yards during the game winning TD drive with ~2 minutes left against the #2 scoring D in the league. his defense, by the way, was ranked 23rd and allowed 27 points that game.

just sayin - not sure it's fair to point out that the DEFENSE led them through that game.

Say what you want about specific plays or games, but the IND defense played way better overall in the post season than they did in the regular season.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Manning is 10-11 in the Playoffs. The year the Colts won the Super Bowl he played mediocre ball and the DEFENSE led them the entire way to the Super Bowl victory.

He has proven time and time again that he cannot play well in the "big game".

 

[Ghost Rider]

If we can assume all playoff games are "big games" - and who would be dumb enough to argue otherwise? - let's see how both Manning and Brady have done individually in the playoffs since the last Super Bowl either guy won. In other words, from 2007-last week, in the playoffs:

Manning:

-16 touchdowns and 7 interceptions in 7 games

-His passer rating is 87.9 or higher in ALL 7 games, and he had a 123.6 against the Jets number 1 ranked defense in the 2009 AFCCG, which seems odd since some would have us believe that Peyton is incapable of playing well in big games.

Brady:

-22 touchdowns and 13 interceptions in 11 games

-His passer rating was below 87.9 in 6 of the those 11 games. In other words, Peyton's WORST playoff game statistically since 2006 is better than 6 of Brady's 11 playoff games.

Just some fun facts to chew on.

If you want to argue that the Patriots have had better teams, hence more winning, as well as the benefit of the best coach of his generation, then that's another argument, and feel free to make it, but when comparing the two players based on their play alone, it is factually incorrect to say that Brady plays well in the playoffs and Peyton does not.

 

[pizzatyme]

How has Brady played since Spygate?

 

[Dancing Bear]

If we can assume all playoff games are "big games" - and who would be dumb enough to argue otherwise? - let's see how both Manning and Brady have done individually in the playoffs since the last Super Bowl either guy won. In other words, from 2007-last week, in the playoffs:

Manning:

-16 touchdowns and 7 interceptions in 7 games

-His passer rating is 87.9 or higher in ALL 7 games, and he had a 123.6 against the Jets number 1 ranked defense in the 2009 AFCCG, which seems odd since some would have us believe that Peyton is incapable of playing well in big games.

Brady:

-22 touchdowns and 13 interceptions in 11 games

-His passer rating was below 87.9 in 6 of the those 11 games. In other words, Peyton's WORST playoff game statistically since 2006 is better than 6 of Brady's 11 playoff games.

Just some fun facts to chew on.

If you want to argue that the Patriots have had better teams, hence more winning, as well as the benefit of the best coach of his generation, then that's another argument, and feel free to make it, but when comparing the two players based on their play alone, it is factually incorrect to say that Brady plays well in the playoffs and Peyton does not.

In spite of your quite arbitrary sampling ...

Brady is 6-5 in his 11 games.

Manning is 3-5 in his 8 games [not 7].

Brady outscored Manning by 2.8 points per game [25.7 to 22.9] while each defense gave up 21.7.

Over their entire sampling it would be 2.5 points per game in favor of Brady [25.5 to 23.0].

Manning was outplayed by his opposing QB 50% of the time [4 out of 8]. Over his entire sampling it would be 52% of the time.

Brady was outplayed by his opposing QB only 45% of the time [5 out of 11]. Entire his entire sampling it would be only 36% of the time.

 

[PatsFanCT]

How has Brady played since Spygate?

Better than just about anybody. But I'm not even sure why you would ask such a stupid question.

 

[Reegus]

How has Brady played since Spygate?

Better than just about anybody. But I'm not even sure why you would ask such a stupid question.

. As a regular season all star. I think what pizza is asking is what big games (aka play off games) has the cheater played well since spygate?

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

If we can assume all playoff games are "big games" - and who would be dumb enough to argue otherwise? - let's see how both Manning and Brady have done individually in the playoffs since the last Super Bowl either guy won. In other words, from 2007-last week, in the playoffs:

Manning:

-16 touchdowns and 7 interceptions in 7 games

-His passer rating is 87.9 or higher in ALL 7 games, and he had a 123.6 against the Jets number 1 ranked defense in the 2009 AFCCG, which seems odd since some would have us believe that Peyton is incapable of playing well in big games.

Brady:

-22 touchdowns and 13 interceptions in 11 games

-His passer rating was below 87.9 in 6 of the those 11 games. In other words, Peyton's WORST playoff game statistically since 2006 is better than 6 of Brady's 11 playoff games.

Just some fun facts to chew on.

If you want to argue that the Patriots have had better teams, hence more winning, as well as the benefit of the best coach of his generation, then that's another argument, and feel free to make it, but when comparing the two players based on their play alone, it is factually incorrect to say that Brady plays well in the playoffs and Peyton does not.

Wow, I didn't know that.

So what your saying is, winning playoff games obviously isn't really important (Brady has 11 compared to Mannings 7) in evaluating QB play. What really matters is TD-INT ratio and QB rating. Why cherrypick, why not just compare their last 11 playoff games? Especially since that would include 4 more wins for Manning when he led his team to his only SB victory by throwing up 3 TDs and 7 Ints during the playoffs. Is it because that would give Manning a low rating of 39% and a TD-INT ratio of 19-14 vs 27-17 which kinda hurts the narrative?

I'm just havin fun with facts....

I get a little tired of the Brady bashing, as I am sure many grow tired of the Manning bashing. Has Brady had more success in the playoffs than Manning? That is idisputable, does that mean Brady is always better than Manning in the playoffs? Hardly, Brady has some pretty poor games since his last SB win and Manning has had some pretty good ones since then. I think both these QBs take their teams farther than maybe they should go sometimes and that maybe helped contribute to some early career failure for Manning and later career failure for Brady.

Doesn't mean they both aren't terrific, stop the Brady bashing, you hate him because he wins so often and he beats you, again and again. No one wants to see a team win all the time, I remember how much I hated the Cowboys in the 90s, so I get it. But Brady is everything you want in a qb, just like Manning is.

I certainly dont buy into the BB in Mannings head crap, that went out the window many years ago. I am friends with many Patriot fans and I do not know of one who wouldn't rather face pretty much anyone else in the league rather than Manning.

Should be a great game and I think it will be close, however, I fear that the Thomas bros give the Broncos a big edge in the red zone and that may very well prove the difference.

 

[PatsFanCT]

How has Brady played since Spygate?

Better than just about anybody. But I'm not even sure why you would ask such a stupid question.

.As a regular season all star. I think what pizza is asking is what big games (aka play off games) has the cheater played well since spygate?

It's funny that you guys think Brady is a cheater, and that not winning a Super Bowl since Spygate means anything. How do people stay so bitter about such nonsense for so long? That's just crazy.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

How has Brady played since Spygate?

Better than just about anybody. But I'm not even sure why you would ask such a stupid question.

.As a regular season all star. I think what pizza is asking is what big games (aka play off games) has the cheater played well since spygate?

Seriously? You want to compare Manning-Brady big games since 2007? Ok, I will go first, Brady has taken his team to 3 straight AFCC (4 overall), won 2 (so far hehe) and gone to 2 SBs where his team had the lead in both with less than 2 mins to go.

Ok, now you go, list all the big games Manning has played in since 07

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Manning is 10-11 in the Playoffs. The year the Colts won the Super Bowl he played mediocre ball and the DEFENSE led them the entire way to the Super Bowl victory.

He has proven time and time again that he cannot play well in the "big game". Look for him to falter again on Sunday.

Fox is 7-5 in the Playoffs. 5-3 with Carolina and 2-2 with Denver.

Brady on the other hand is 18-7 in the Playoffs. He has regularly risen to the "big game" and he and the Pats will prevail.

Belichick is 19-8 in the Playoffs. 1-1 with Cleveland, and 18-7 with New England.

This is a totally new spin on things. Who would have realized that Manning had a losing playoff record, while the Pats have had past success during the playoffs. Thanks for the knowledge.

 

[Anarchy99]

How has Brady played since Spygate?

Since you asked, here's how all QBs have fared in the post season since Spygate. You can decide what makes a good QB in the playoffs . . .

	        W	L	TD	INT	RatingKurt Warner	4	2	16	4	117.4Alex Smith	1	2	9	0	108.6Nick Foles	0	1	2	0	105Drew Brees	5	3	19	4	103.5Aaron Rodgers	5	4	19	5	103.1Brett Favre	2	2	10	4	98.2Matt Stafford	0	1	3	2	97Peyton Manning	3	5	16	7	96.4Eli Manning	8	1	15	4	94.6Russell Wilson	2	1	3	1	94.5Mark Sanchez	4	2	9	3	94.3Kaepernick	4	1	6	3	92.7Hasselbeck	2	2	9	3	90.2Tim Tebow	1	1	2	0	90Philip Rivers	4	4	11	8	89.1Tom Brady	6	5	22	13	88.3Matt Schaub	1	1	2	2	87.5Joe Flacco	9	4	19	8	86.2Matt Ryan	1	4	9	7	85.2Jay Cutler	1	1	2	1	84.8Roethlisberger	5	3	10	9	81.9Michael Vick	0	1	2	1	79.9Cam Newton	0	1	1	2	79.9Donovan McNabb	2	2	6	5	79.7Tony Romo	1	2	3	2	78.5David Garrard	1	1	3	3	77.5Robert Griffin	0	1	2	1	77.5Kerry Collins	0	1	0	1	71.6Andrew Luck	1	2	6	8	70Todd Collins	0	1	2	2	64.3Jeff Garcia	0	1	1	2	60.5Carson Palmer	0	1	1	1	58.3Andy Dalton	0	3	1	6	56.2T.J. Yates	1	1	1	3	53.8Chad Pennington	0	1	1	4	53.7Vince Young	0	1	0	1	53.5Tarv. Jackson	0	1	0	1	45.4Kirk Cousins	0	0	0	0	40Jake Delhomme	0	1	1	5	39.1Matt Cassel	0	1	0	3	20.4

 

[pizzatyme]

How has Brady played since Spygate?

Better than just about anybody. But I'm not even sure why you would ask such a stupid question.

.As a regular season all star. I think what pizza is asking is what big games (aka play off games) has the cheater played well since spygate?

It's funny that you guys think Brady is a cheater, and that not winning a Super Bowl since Spygate means anything. How do people stay so bitter about such nonsense for so long? That's just crazy.

So winning Superbowls while cheating means something, not not winning any since being caught means nothing? Got it.

 

[pizzatyme]

How has Brady played since Spygate?

Since you asked, here's how all QBs have fared in the post season since Spygate. You can decide what makes a good QB in the playoffs . . .

	        W	L	TD	INT	RatingKurt Warner	4	2	16	4	117.4Alex Smith	1	2	9	0	108.6Nick Foles	0	1	2	0	105Drew Brees	5	3	19	4	103.5Aaron Rodgers	5	4	19	5	103.1Brett Favre	2	2	10	4	98.2Matt Stafford	0	1	3	2	97Peyton Manning	3	5	16	7	96.4Eli Manning	8	1	15	4	94.6Russell Wilson	2	1	3	1	94.5Mark Sanchez	4	2	9	3	94.3Kaepernick	4	1	6	3	92.7Hasselbeck	2	2	9	3	90.2Tim Tebow	1	1	2	0	90Philip Rivers	4	4	11	8	89.1Tom Brady	6	5	22	13	88.3Matt Schaub	1	1	2	2	87.5Joe Flacco	9	4	19	8	86.2Matt Ryan	1	4	9	7	85.2Jay Cutler	1	1	2	1	84.8Roethlisberger	5	3	10	9	81.9Michael Vick	0	1	2	1	79.9Cam Newton	0	1	1	2	79.9Donovan McNabb	2	2	6	5	79.7Tony Romo	1	2	3	2	78.5David Garrard	1	1	3	3	77.5Robert Griffin	0	1	2	1	77.5Kerry Collins	0	1	0	1	71.6Andrew Luck	1	2	6	8	70Todd Collins	0	1	2	2	64.3Jeff Garcia	0	1	1	2	60.5Carson Palmer	0	1	1	1	58.3Andy Dalton	0	3	1	6	56.2T.J. Yates	1	1	1	3	53.8Chad Pennington	0	1	1	4	53.7Vince Young	0	1	0	1	53.5Tarv. Jackson	0	1	0	1	45.4Kirk Cousins	0	0	0	0	40Jake Delhomme	0	1	1	5	39.1Matt Cassel	0	1	0	3	20.4

Thanks, but I just asked about Brady. But, since you provided the info, it appears that 15 QBs have performed better in the playoffs since then and one of them was Tim Tebow. Let that sink in for a bit.

 

[General Tso]

Just curious, do all the Pats haters out there really believe that the Pats obtained a significant competitive edge with spying? Wasn't the practice realtively commonplace back then? Isn't it just that the Pats did it after the NFL ban?

I should probably learn more about this, but I swear it's all you hear about when it comes to Brady or Belichek. I know people are doing it just to get under the skin of Pats fans, but there's an old saying that if you keep saying something long enough you'll eventually start believing it. I really think there's some people who believe deep down that the entire source of Brady and Belichek's greatness was derived out of cheating.

 

[Anarchy99]

Just curious, do all the Pats haters out there really believe that the Pats obtained a significant competitive edge with spying? Wasn't the practice realtively commonplace back then? Isn't it just that the Pats did it after the NFL ban?

I should probably learn more about this, but I swear it's all you hear about when it comes to Brady or Belichek. I know people are doing it just to get under the skin of Pats fans, but there's an old saying that if you keep saying something long enough you'll eventually start believing it. I really think there's some people who believe deep down that the entire source of Brady and Belichek's greatness was derived out of cheating.

From what I remember, the Pats taped signals from a spot in the stadium that was not allowed (on the field). I also believe that teams were allowed to use cameras and record things in the stadium, so it was more of a logistics thing. Also, many teams over the years have tried to interpret or stretch the rules and have pushed the limits of fair play. Who knows if the Patriots gained much of an advantage doing what they did. But the commish sent out a notice that teams were to stop the practice and NE got caught right after that.

I look at it like people driving 57 mph in a 55 mph zone. Sure, technically it's speeding and against the law.

 

[[icon]]

at the spygate whiners... still rippin kleenex from the box a decade later.

Since the Jets game in 2007 the Patriots have a record of 80-24 (regular season and playoffs), best in the NFL by about 20 lengths. They have won five six division titles in six seven years (the Jets have won 29 fewer regular-season games over the last six years, and that's the second-best record in the AFC East over that span), four FIVE AFC title game appearances and two trips to the Super Bowl. Seventeen teams in NFL history have scored more than 500 points in a season and four of those seasons have come from the Patriots since 2007.

Pats owned the NFL in the half decade before Spygate, but even since Spygate it's been New England...........................................then everybody else.

 

[PatsFanCT]

How has Brady played since Spygate?

Better than just about anybody. But I'm not even sure why you would ask such a stupid question.

.As a regular season all star. I think what pizza is asking is what big games (aka play off games) has the cheater played well since spygate?

It's funny that you guys think Brady is a cheater, and that not winning a Super Bowl since Spygate means anything. How do people stay so bitter about such nonsense for so long? That's just crazy.

So winning Superbowls while cheating means something, not not winning any since being caught means nothing? Got it.

Uh, link to "winning Super Bowls while cheating"... In fact, link to any cheating for that matter. It's ok if you want to whine about it the rest of your life, I'm just pointing out how pathetic you look by doing so.

 

[PatsFanCT]

Just curious, do all the Pats haters out there really believe that the Pats obtained a significant competitive edge with spying? Wasn't the practice realtively commonplace back then? Isn't it just that the Pats did it after the NFL ban?

I should probably learn more about this, but I swear it's all you hear about when it comes to Brady or Belichek. I know people are doing it just to get under the skin of Pats fans, but there's an old saying that if you keep saying something long enough you'll eventually start believing it. I really think there's some people who believe deep down that the entire source of Brady and Belichek's greatness was derived out of cheating.

It's even funnier since they won three Super Bowls before cameras were even banned from the sidelines, yet they claim they won those Super Bowls by cheating.

 

[General Tso]

Well, I just read the Wiki on Spygate to refresh my memory, and boy oh boy, talk about much ado about nothing. My goodness, I've heard people compare this to the steroid scandal in baseball. I don't know, you people read it for yourselves and tell me what I am missing here.

 

[pizzatyme]

Just curious, do all the Pats haters out there really believe that the Pats obtained a significant competitive edge with spying? Wasn't the practice realtively commonplace back then? Isn't it just that the Pats did it after the NFL ban?

I should probably learn more about this, but I swear it's all you hear about when it comes to Brady or Belichek. I know people are doing it just to get under the skin of Pats fans, but there's an old saying that if you keep saying something long enough you'll eventually start

believing it. I really think there's some people who believe deep down that the entire source of Brady and Belichek's greatness was derived out of cheating.

Sometimes cheating is the difference between very good and great. If there wasn't an advantage then why did the Pata continue to do it after it was banned? Why did Arod (among others) juice? To get the difference they needed to be great.

Cheating is cheating.

Since Spygate, the Patriots have win ZERO Superbowls. They've been very good, just not great. Correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation, I know. But it could.

 

[pizzatyme]

How has Brady played since Spygate?

Better than just about anybody. But I'm not even sure why you would ask such a stupid question.

.As a regular season all star. I think what pizza is

asking is what big games (aka play off games) has the cheater played well since spygate?

It's funny that you guys think Brady is a cheater, and that not winning a Super Bowl since Spygate means anything. How do people stay so bitter about such nonsense for so long? That's just crazy.

So winning Superbowls while cheating means something, not not winning any since being caught means nothing? Got it.

Uh, link to "winning Super Bowls while cheating"... In fact, link to any cheating for that matter. It's ok if you want to whine about it the rest of your life, I'm just pointing out how pathetic you look by doing so.

This is a surprising take coming from a Pats fan. I'm shocked!

 

[General Tso]

How has Brady played since Spygate?

Better than just about anybody. But I'm not even sure why you would ask such a stupid question.

.As a regular season all star. I think what pizza is asking is what big games (aka play off games) has the cheater played well since spygate?

It's funny that you guys think Brady is a cheater, and that not winning a Super Bowl since Spygate means anything. How do people stay so bitter about such nonsense for so long? That's just crazy.

So winning Superbowls while cheating means something, not not winning any since being caught means nothing? Got it.

Pizza, read the Wiki article on Spygate. I can't see in there that what the Pats did with videotaping the Rams walkthrough was against the rules at that point int time.

 

[PatsFanCT]

Just curious, do all the Pats haters out there really believe that the Pats obtained a significant competitive edge with spying? Wasn't the practice realtively commonplace back then? Isn't it just that the Pats did it after the NFL ban?

I should probably learn more about this, but I swear it's all you hear about when it comes to Brady or Belichek. I know people are doing it just to get under the skin of Pats fans, but there's an old saying that if you keep saying something long enough you'll eventually start

believing it. I really think there's some people who believe deep down that the entire source of Brady and Belichek's greatness was derived out of cheating.

Sometimes cheating is the difference between very good and great. If there wasn't an advantage then why did the Pata continue to do it after it was banned?Why did Arod (among others) juice? To get the difference they needed to be great.

Cheating is cheating.

Since Spygate, the Patriots have win ZERO Superbowls. They've been very good, just not great. Correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation, I know. But it could.

LOL, cuz winning the Super Bowl is easy. Here's a crazy stat for you. Only 5 teams have won the Super Bowl since Spygate. 27 teams have ZERO Super Bowls.

 

[General Tso]

Just curious, do all the Pats haters out there really believe that the Pats obtained a significant competitive edge with spying? Wasn't the practice realtively commonplace back then? Isn't it just that the Pats did it after the NFL ban?

I should probably learn more about this, but I swear it's all you hear about when it comes to Brady or Belichek. I know people are doing it just to get under the skin of Pats fans, but there's an old saying that if you keep saying something long enough you'll eventually start

believing it. I really think there's some people who believe deep down that the entire source of Brady and Belichek's greatness was derived out of cheating.

Sometimes cheating is the difference between very good and great. If there wasn't an advantage then why did the Pata continue to do it after it was banned?Why did Arod (among others) juice? To get the difference they needed to be great.

Cheating is cheating.

Since Spygate, the Patriots have win ZERO Superbowls. They've been very good, just not great. Correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation, I know. But it could.

From the little I know about Spygate the NFL didn't officially ban filming the sidelines until 2006, so I guess you could say what the Pats did was against the rules for the period of 2006 until the Jets game in 2007 - when they didn't win anything.

And there are about 25 other teams that haven't won a Superbowl since 2007. The Pats can't win it every year.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Just curious, do all the Pats haters out there really believe that the Pats obtained a significant competitive edge with spying? Wasn't the practice realtively commonplace back then? Isn't it just that the Pats did it after the NFL ban?

I should probably learn more about this, but I swear it's all you hear about when it comes to Brady or Belichek. I know people are doing it just to get under the skin of Pats fans, but there's an old saying that if you keep saying something long enough you'll eventually start believing it. I really think there's some people who believe deep down that the entire source of Brady and Belichek's greatness was derived out of cheating.

By and large it is 99% jealousy and much like a baby with a pacifier the haters don't actually get anything out of it but it is absolutley all they got so i tmakes them feel better. I think Bill Cowher said it pretty well just yesterday:

PITTSBURGH -- Bill Cowher has a message for Pittsburgh Steelers fans who think their team was cheated out of a trip to the Super Bowl 10 years ago: Get over it.

The Steelers were drummed by New England, 41-27, in the 2004 AFC Championship Game at Heinz field, a loss that came under suspicion a couple of years later when the Patriots were caught trying to steal signals and formations by illegally videotaping opposing teams.

“We didn’t lose the game because of any 'Spygate,' because of them having any additional things,” Cowher told 93.7 The Fan on Wednesday. “[if] they’re guilty of anything they’re guilty of arrogance because they were told not to do something but it was something everybody does. They got caught doing it with a camera.”

Cowher, who coached the Steelers from 1992-2006, said what the Patriots did happened regularly in the NFL before the league allowed coordinators to relay plays to their quarterback and defensive signal-caller via a helmet radio.

“Stealing someone’s signals was a part of the game and everybody attempted to do that. We had people that always tried to steal signals,” said Cowher, whose 2004 team won 16 consecutive games before losing to the Patriots in the AFC title game. “What happened when we lost that game is they outplayed us. It had nothing to do with stealing signals or cheating or anything else.” http://espn.go.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/4294/cowher-dismisses-impact-of-spygate

Now who is more authoritive on the subject, Cowher or Pizzatime et al?

 

[PatsFanCT]

How has Brady played since Spygate?

Better than just about anybody. But I'm not even sure why you would ask such a stupid question.

.As a regular season all star. I think what pizza is asking is what big games (aka play off games) has the cheater played well since spygate?

It's funny that you guys think Brady is a cheater, and that not winning a Super Bowl since Spygate means anything. How do people stay so bitter about such nonsense for so long? That's just crazy.

So winning Superbowls while cheating means something, not not winning any since being caught means nothing? Got it.

Pizza, read the Wiki article on Spygate. I can't see in there that what the Pats did with videotaping the Rams walkthrough was against the rules at that point int time.

This needs to stop. The Pats never video taped the Rams walk through. The Pats were never even accused of video taping the Rams walkthrough. In fact, the Pats were the ones that had the NFL look into a hotel window with a camera set up. The 2001 Super Bowl was never part of Spygate.

 

[parrot]

Just curious, do all the Pats haters out there really believe that the Pats obtained a significant competitive edge with spying? Wasn't the practice realtively commonplace back then? Isn't it just that the Pats did it after the NFL ban?

I should probably learn more about this, but I swear it's all you hear about when it comes to Brady or Belichek. I know people are doing it just to get under the skin of Pats fans, but there's an old saying that if you keep saying something long enough you'll eventually start

believing it. I really think there's some people who believe deep down that the entire source of Brady and Belichek's greatness was derived out of cheating.

Sometimes cheating is the difference between very good and great. If there wasn't an advantage then why did the Pata continue to do it after it was banned?Why did Arod (among others) juice? To get the difference they needed to be great.

Cheating is cheating.

Since Spygate, the Patriots have win ZERO Superbowls. They've been very good, just not great. Correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation, I know. But it could.

From the little I know about Spygate the NFL didn't officially ban filming the sidelines until 2006, so I guess you could say what the Pats did was against the rules for the period of 2006 until the Jets game in 2007 - when they didn't win anything.

And there are about 25 other teams that haven't won a Superbowl since 2007. The Pats can't win it every year.

There is no "ban" on filming the sideline, and no rules on videotaping changed in 2006, or since, as far as I know. The Patriots got in trouble for where they taped from, not what they taped. There is no rule that says you can't tape another team's signals, there are simply rules about where cameras can be placed. The intent of the rule is to make such electronic devices inaccessible to players and coaches as the game is being played. There was never any indication that the Pats made use of the tapes as the game was being played. The tape techs testified that they turned the tapes into Ernie Adams after the games were done. This is why Belichick felt they were okay in obeying the spirit of the rule if not the letter. Even Mangini is on record as saying it wasn't that big a deal and would never had said anything if he had any idea of the ruckus it would cause.

 

[pizzatyme]

I think Belichick said it best recently..."We'll do whatever it takes to win"

 

[Run It Up]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10303066/peyton-manning-denver-broncos-most-respected-nfl-espn-survey

If you had to start a team with one player a majority took old man Peyton. Bold and dumb.

 

[[icon]]

Well, I just read the Wiki on Spygate to refresh my memory, and boy oh boy, talk about much ado about nothing. My goodness, I've heard people compare this to the steroid scandal in baseball. I don't know, you people read it for yourselves and tell me what I am missing here.

it's fans of teams who are perennial patriots whipping boys without the literacy skills to look up the facts for themselves. It's kinda pathetic but fun to watch all the hand wringing so we usually don't correct them on it.

 

[General Tso]

How has Brady played since Spygate?

Better than just about anybody. But I'm not even sure why you would ask such a stupid question.

.As a regular season all star. I think what pizza is asking is what big games (aka play off games) has the cheater played well since spygate?

It's funny that you guys think Brady is a cheater, and that not winning a Super Bowl since Spygate means anything. How do people stay so bitter about such nonsense for so long? That's just crazy.

So winning Superbowls while cheating means something, not not winning any since being caught means nothing? Got it.

Pizza, read the Wiki article on Spygate. I can't see in there that what the Pats did with videotaping the Rams walkthrough was against the rules at that point int time.

This needs to stop. The Pats never video taped the Rams walk through. The Pats were never even accused of video taping the Rams walkthrough. In fact, the Pats were the ones that had the NFL look into a hotel window with a camera set up. The 2001 Super Bowl was never part of Spygate.

That's exactly what I mean. Even me, a moderate Pats supporter, has let fiction become fact on this issue. The Pats have gotten so much negative press with Spygate it's unbelievable. It's really become a cottage industry and people everywhere - haters, lovers, even the media - are operating with a ridiculously jandiced eye when it comes to Brady and Belichek. I honestly think people like Pizza really do believe that Pats' success over the years is due to "cheating".

 

[[icon]]

I honestly think people like Pizza really do believe that Pats' success over the years is due to "cheating".

There's not a person on this forum that takes anything Pizzatyme says seriously so it's really of no consequence

 

[General Tso]

I honestly think people like Pizza really do believe that Pats' success over the years is due to "cheating".

There's not a person on this forum that takes anything Pizzatyme says seriously so it's really of no consequence

There's a LOT of people like Pizzatime out there, though, and the ranks are growing. I've even heard a lot of radio talk show hosts making a huge issue out of Spygate this past year. I really think it's becoming an urban legend type thing. The problem is, Belichek and the Pats are never going to do any lobbying campaign to re-educate people on this issue. And the media is too dumb and too lazy to report the truth on the subject. So every year, the legend grows and the reputations are tanished even more.

Like I said earlier, I really have no dog in this fight. I like the Pats but part of me still has a deep resentment towards them for the dirty way they treated my hometown of Hartford. I just find this whole dynamic fascinating that's all. Maybe it's because I'm a History major and I prefer to see things recorded correctly. I don't like Belichek personally, but I'm starting to believe the guy has been WAY overpenalized for Spygate all things considered. He probably doesn't care though, which I guess is good.

 

[parrot]

I honestly think people like Pizza really do believe that Pats' success over the years is due to "cheating".

There's not a person on this forum that takes anything Pizzatyme says seriously so it's really of no consequence

There's a LOT of people like Pizzatime out there, though, and the ranks are growing. I've even heard a lot of radio talk show hosts making a huge issue out of Spygate this past year. I really think it's becoming an urban legend type thing. The problem is, Belichek and the Pats are never going to do any lobbying campaign to re-educate people on this issue. And the media is too dumb and too lazy to report the truth on the subject. So every year, the legend grows and the reputations are tanished even more.

Like I said earlier, I really have no dog in this fight. I like the Pats but part of me still has a deep resentment towards them for the dirty way they treated my hometown of Hartford. I just find this whole dynamic fascinating that's all. Maybe it's because I'm a History major and I prefer to see things recorded correctly. I don't like Belichek personally, but I'm starting to believe the guy has been WAY overpenalized for Spygate all things considered. He probably doesn't care though, which I guess is good.

He was basically punished for a technicality. The problem is that the league did send out a memo warning teams who might be doing it to cease and desist, and for whatever reason, he chose to ignore that memo. That part is all on him.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

Correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation, I know. But it could.

Aristotle weeps.

 

[Reegus]

All I know is manning and Brady total championships without cheating.

Manning 1

Brady 0

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Just curious, do all the Pats haters out there really believe that the Pats obtained a significant competitive edge with spying? Wasn't the practice realtively commonplace back then? Isn't it just that the Pats did it after the NFL ban?

I should probably learn more about this, but I swear it's all you hear about when it comes to Brady or Belichek. I know people are doing it just to get under the skin of Pats fans, but there's an old saying that if you keep saying something long enough you'll eventually start believing it. I really think there's some people who believe deep down that the entire source of Brady and Belichek's greatness was derived out of cheating.

Bill Cohwer on Spygate:

“We didn’t lose the game because of any Spygate, because of them having any additional things,” Cowher said. “I think if they’re guilty of anything, they’re guilty of arrogance, because they were told not to do something. But it was something that everybody does. The only thing they got caught [was] doing it with a camera. We had people that always tried to steal signals. Stealing someone’s signals was a part of the game, and everybody attempted to do that.

“Part of the things we had [were] wristbands that we were using to do it. It’s not even an element anymore because of the communications that take place on the field to the quarterback, to the linebacker. So it’s an element of the game that doesn’t exist, and really, what happened when we lost that game is they outplayed us, and it has nothing to do with stealing signals, or cheating, or anything else. They were a better football team on that day.”

 

[Andrew74]

Boy this turned into a Pats circle jerk.

 

[Run It Up]

I brought up two legitimate points (the comedy of errors that was the Pats first three possessions and how little Peyton actually contributed in their week 12 loss) for discussion and they both immediately turned into "herp durr Knowknow ran for 300 yards"...

No one actually wants to talk about the upcoming games apparently.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I brought up two legitimate points (the comedy of errors that was the Pats first three possessions and how little Peyton actually contributed in their week 12 loss) for discussion and they both immediately turned into "herp durr Knowknow ran for 300 yards"...

No one actually wants to talk about the upcoming games apparently.

I appreciated it. Your post was health food and many people don't post unless they disagree with or want to fight about something. I am not sure that a massive comeback is possible in Denver. We get behind like that again, and the Pats are toast. The loss of Gronk hurts a ####load.

Over his career, Ridley's ball security is getting worse, not better. Do you think he gets the ball early or during important downs? I hope not. Despite running like a mad man lately, Blount however coughs up the ball a bit too. He's been great the last few games, but I'm frightened that he could give up the ball at a terrible time as well. How do you think BB is going to approach the running game?

I don't remember the circumstances of M Jackson and Phillip's sacks over the past 3 games without Von Miller, but it seems they can still get to the QB pretty well. Most (not all) of this can be solved by short passes; will Edelman and Vereen get extra attention from Brady on Sunday? Otherwise, the RBs will have to not #### this thing up, or else we'll be bringing a knife to a gun fight, because although I think the defense can turn the ball over a few times, Manning will still get the ball to his playmakers enough to score a bunch of points. I don't have faith in the young WRs to make big plays, and am going to wince if I see a 3rd and long pass to Dobson.

I wish people would get off of this Manning = choker, Brady = spygate bull####. It'll never end no matter what happens on Sunday. I expect Manning to have a good game, and the Pats are going to have to steal a few possessions to get a win. That's usually how it is anyway.

 

[kyoun1e]

Just curious, do all the Pats haters out there really believe that the Pats obtained a significant competitive edge with spying? Wasn't the practice realtively commonplace back then? Isn't it just that the Pats did it after the NFL ban?

I should probably learn more about this, but I swear it's all you hear about when it comes to Brady or Belichek. I know people are doing it just to get under the skin of Pats fans, but there's an old saying that if you keep saying something long enough you'll eventually start believing it. I really think there's some people who believe deep down that the entire source of Brady and Belichek's greatness was derived out of cheating.

By and large it is 99% jealousy and much like a baby with a pacifier the haters don't actually get anything out of it but it is absolutley all they got so i tmakes them feel better. I think Bill Cowher said it pretty well just yesterday:

PITTSBURGH -- Bill Cowher has a message for Pittsburgh Steelers fans who think their team was cheated out of a trip to the Super Bowl 10 years ago: Get over it.

The Steelers were drummed by New England, 41-27, in the 2004 AFC Championship Game at Heinz field, a loss that came under suspicion a couple of years later when the Patriots were caught trying to steal signals and formations by illegally videotaping opposing teams.

“We didn’t lose the game because of any 'Spygate,' because of them having any additional things,” Cowher told 93.7 The Fan on Wednesday. “[if] they’re guilty of anything they’re guilty of arrogance because they were told not to do something but it was something everybody does. They got caught doing it with a camera.”

Cowher, who coached the Steelers from 1992-2006, said what the Patriots did happened regularly in the NFL before the league allowed coordinators to relay plays to their quarterback and defensive signal-caller via a helmet radio.

“Stealing someone’s signals was a part of the game and everybody attempted to do that. We had people that always tried to steal signals,” said Cowher, whose 2004 team won 16 consecutive games before losing to the Patriots in the AFC title game. “What happened when we lost that game is they outplayed us. It had nothing to do with stealing signals or cheating or anything else.” http://espn.go.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/4294/cowher-dismisses-impact-of-spygate

Now who is more authoritive on the subject, Cowher or Pizzatime et al?

It's amazing how stuff like this is ignored by the haters.

Whatever helps the bitter haters sleep at night.

 

[Run It Up]

I wish people would get off of this Manning = choker, Brady = spygate bull####. It'll never end no matter what happens on Sunday. I expect Manning to have a good game, and the Pats are going to have to steal a few possessions to get a win. That's usually how it is anyway.

Thats how I saw it in week 12, I thought the Pats were for sure going to lose unless they dominated the turnover battle -- I was wrong.

I feel like both teams are gonna come out running the ball and the Pats D are gonna let em try to beat them on the ground. Gonna be a big day for the Pats D imo.

 

[moleculo]

I brought up two legitimate points (the comedy of errors that was the Pats first three possessions and how little Peyton actually contributed in their week 12 loss) for discussion and they both immediately turned into "herp durr Knowknow ran for 300 yards"...

No one actually wants to talk about the upcoming games apparently.

well, to be fair, this thread is kind of a lightning rod for the inevitable Manning v. Brady debate. It's gonna bring out the chippiest of both sides. I've tried to abstain because I've already said my peace elsewhere, no sense re-hashing all that with the same characters.

I just posted my thoughts on how the game will go in the ***official*** thread.

 

[AngryPatriot]

I really do hope Brady wins it all. He'd be just about at the pinnacle in that case. Manning is great, seems like a good guy, he'd sell peanuts at the stadium if he could, lol. We're all lucky to see a game between 2 greats. Go Pats!!

 

[Shanahanigans]

Just curious, do all the Pats haters out there really believe that the Pats obtained a significant competitive edge with spying? Wasn't the practice realtively commonplace back then? Isn't it just that the Pats did it after the NFL ban?

I should probably learn more about this, but I swear it's all you hear about when it comes to Brady or Belichek. I know people are doing it just to get under the skin of Pats fans, but there's an old saying that if you keep saying something long enough you'll eventually start believing it. I really think there's some people who believe deep down that the entire source of Brady and Belichek's greatness was derived out of cheating.

From what I remember, the Pats taped signals from a spot in the stadium that was not allowed (on the field). I also believe that teams were allowed to use cameras and record things in the stadium, so it was more of a logistics thing. Also, many teams over the years have tried to interpret or stretch the rules and have pushed the limits of fair play. Who knows if the Patriots gained much of an advantage doing what they did. But the commish sent out a notice that teams were to stop the practice and NE got caught right after that.

I look at it like people driving 57 mph in a 55 mph zone. Sure, technically it's speeding and against the law.

Regardless of whether or not the Pats won their super bowls because of spygate (from what I can tell it played little to no effect), I find it funny that you make an analogy to the tiniest crime imaginable. Belichick was fined the maximum amount of money that an individual can possibly be fined, and the Pats forfeited a 1st Round pick. It is the largest punishment I've ever seen occur in the NFL. That doesn't happen if it's the equivalent of going 2 over in a 55.

 

[Ballstein]

Just curious, do all the Pats haters out there really believe that the Pats obtained a significant competitive edge with spying? Wasn't the practice realtively commonplace back then? Isn't it just that the Pats did it after the NFL ban?

I should probably learn more about this, but I swear it's all you hear about when it comes to Brady or Belichek. I know people are doing it just to get under the skin of Pats fans, but there's an old saying that if you keep saying something long enough you'll eventually start believing it. I really think there's some people who believe deep down that the entire source of Brady and Belichek's greatness was derived out of cheating.

From what I remember, the Pats taped signals from a spot in the stadium that was not allowed (on the field). I also believe that teams were allowed to use cameras and record things in the stadium, so it was more of a logistics thing. Also, many teams over the years have tried to interpret or stretch the rules and have pushed the limits of fair play. Who knows if the Patriots gained much of an advantage doing what they did. But the commish sent out a notice that teams were to stop the practice and NE got caught right after that.

I look at it like people driving 57 mph in a 55 mph zone. Sure, technically it's speeding and against the law.

Regardless of whether or not the Pats won their super bowls because of spygate (from what I can tell it played little to no effect), I find it funny that you make an analogy to the tiniest crime imaginable. Belichick was fined the maximum amount of money that an individual can possibly be fined, and the Pats forfeited a 1st Round pick. It is the largest punishment I've ever seen occur in the NFL. That doesn't happen if it's the equivalent of going 2 over in a 55.

ever heard of the new orleans saints?