Breaking Down Prospects on Film (1 Viewer)

[Bob Magaw]

the intent here is to start a discussion about the possibility of finding positional traits & attributes that might be more important than others at having "predictive" power towards sussing out how a player's career might unfold... boding well or ill...

just as in playing poker an expert can read players from minute, almost unconscious changes, are there little things film watchers notice that have proven helpful to them in the past that they care to share...

the holy grail for any level from hobbyists, enthusiasts to serious FBGs, short of a paid NFL scout, would be to extract a maximum of information from a minimum of data... many of us don't have countless hours to break down film like mayock... you can borrow your take from somebody else (whether site, magazine, TV, etc), or you can form your own conclusions by augmenting this kind of information with the extensive highlight archive at place like yahoo...

to change the metaphor, to a layperson or novice, you could look at a painting for years & not tell if it was a counterfeit or not... to an expert, who knows what to look for, he could tell almost instantly, with a cursory glance, from a thousand things ...

for RBs, almost impossible to narrow down to one (or even a few)... vision, instincts... of course speed & quickness to a degree, but at the level of top draft prospects, those last two somewhat of a given... another big one is balance...

for WRs, seems self-evident, but sometimes scouts can can get overly enamored with non-essential attributes... a huge trait is HANDS... hard to coach up hands in my experience, but not impossible... mixing up speeds can help with separation... looking at some highlights today, i noticed one WR kind of telegraphed (why do we still use that outmoded communications medium? ) when he was going to make a break by gathering himself... the opposite of a silky smooth holt, who is completely inscrutable coming off the line... impossible to tell when he will make his break in advance... he doesn't disclose that through body language (CBs will tell WRs they like to work on this relentlessly)... now that probably can be coached up, but it is good to attend to these kind of details when evaluating prospects, & what their learning curve might look like...

QBs... pocket presence & sense is huge... lack of it can be the complete undoing of an otherwise outstanding prospect... also the almost innate sense of timing to be able to hit WRs out of their breaks & not WAIT until they get open... in the pros the windows are smaller due to greater DB athleticism & speed, so by that time it is too late... also, having the knack to find "lanes" to throw the ball through, behind the modern behemoths that reside on the OL/DL...

other "tells" appreciated... lets compare notes with the 1,000 eyed monster - the FBG informal scouting apparatus/engine otherwise known as the shark pool...

* DL - staying on their feet comes in handy... the punch in the trenches, the vicious hand to hand combat needed to disengage from OL... keeping their head up & tracking the action & ballcarrier... playing under control & not lunging...

LB - the innate, almost telepathic sense of angles to hit a moving target from sideline to sideline... also, the almost RB like instincts & ability to get through blockers (or get off blocks & scrape when necessary) & still make the play...

DBs - run/pass recognition is huge, & can be a deal breaker for otherwise physical specimens with all the computer numbers & measurables that just don't "get it" when it comes to the most important muscle... the one between the ears...

 

[DA RAIDERS]

a rb's ability to just avoid the big hit, & fall forward. see LTII.

& for all players, heart. give me the player who goes all out on every play. hines ward type.

 

[Bob Magaw]

a rb's ability to just avoid the big hit, & fall forward. see LTII. & for all players, heart. give me the player who goes all out on every play. hines ward type.

marcus allen was one of best i ever say that avoided big hit (gretsky had this in hockey)... good point, good trait to have in violent occupation of RB... it can mean a longer career where you can play at a high level longer (marvin harrison also has this)...i partly chalked it up to great peripheral vision, but probably an aggregate or constellation of traits that include fast reflexes & great agility & body control (translating what their brain sees into making the body move... QUICKLY!!), overall field awareness, etc... being able to interpret & make sense of the visual field that presents 21 other players on the field moving in different directions & at different speeds, better than others... this is no doubt a talent not evenly distributed in the population... joe montana had it... ex-49ers QB john brodie claimed the action actually slowed down (from his POV) when he went back for a pass & he felt subjectively it gave him more time to scan & survey the field & make better decisions & more accurate throws as he felt unhurried & pressured... good point about desire, heart & passion for the game... i like to also check bio of prospect, sort of like you would interview a prospective hire...

 

[greyone]

Rbs with low center of gravity, could also be interpreted as balance.

MJDrew-recent

Barry Sander-classic

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

for WRs, seems self-evident, but sometimes scouts can can get overly enamored with non-essential attributes... a huge trait is HANDS... hard to coach up hands in my experience, but not impossible... mixing up speeds can help with separation... looking at some highlights today, i noticed one WR kind of telegraphed (why do we still use that outmoded communications medium? ) when he was going to make a break by gathering himself... the opposite of a silky smooth holt, who is completely inscrutable coming off the line... impossible to tell when he will make his break in advance... he doesn't disclose that through body language (CBs will tell WRs they like to work on this relentlessly)... now that probably can be coached up, but it is good to attend to these kind of details when evaluating prospects, & what their learning curve might look like...

That's all true.It's hard to evaluate a player's natural catching ability on film or TV. You really want to be live and up close to get a feel for how his hands fit around the ball. "Soft hands" means flexible hands that, by feel, adjust to the ball's shape upon contact and grip it, so the ball isn't hitting a player's hands, but is enveloped by them. Hard to explain, but you know it when you see it. (Or hear it. It should sound like a pluck rather than a pop.) It goes without saying that a receiver should catch the ball exclusively with his hands, not by trapping it against his shoulder pads or with his forearms, etc.

As for running fundamentally sound patterns, there is really a lot that goes into just a simple cut. The first thing (just talking about the cut -- not getting off the line) is to refrain from telegraphing your cut with your eyes or head. The natural tendency when you're running and changing direction is to lead with your head. If you are going to cut to the left, your head turns left an instant before your right foot plants and you turn the rest of your body. That is a "tell" that most NFL receivers have completely eliminated, but I've seen Calvin Johnson do it. Johnson is the best WR prospect I've seen since at least Randy Moss; he's a real natural in many important areas, but he does need work on some of the basic fundamentals. One thing he'll have to work on is turning his head at the same time as he turns his body, not before.

In addition to avoiding telegraphing your cut with your head, you have to avoid telegraphing it with your feet and your weight. A lot of players, especially long-striders, will start chopping their feet (taking much shorter strides) pretty early before they make their cut. (In contrast, Jerry Rice, Steve Largent, and Marvin Harrison would barely chop their feet at all. Amazing to watch.) Many players will also shift their center of gravity (either up or down, depending on the player), just before cutting. (The players who shift it down also tend to lean forward, so that their shoulders end up over their knees instead of staying over their hips.) All of these things slow down the cut by wasting motion in addition to telegraphing the cut, and NFL-quality corners are all savvy enough to use them to their advantage and get a jump on their break.

Those are the basics. Beyond that, some WRs do a great job of changing their pace throughout the course of their routes to keep the defender off balance. They'll give a "false tell" like subtly elevating their center of gravity, but then instead of cutting, they'll accelerate straight ahead. Marvin Harrison is a master of this.

 

[Bob Magaw]

for WRs, seems self-evident, but sometimes scouts can can get overly enamored with non-essential attributes... a huge trait is HANDS... hard to coach up hands in my experience, but not impossible... mixing up speeds can help with separation... looking at some highlights today, i noticed one WR kind of telegraphed (why do we still use that outmoded communications medium? ) when he was going to make a break by gathering himself... the opposite of a silky smooth holt, who is completely inscrutable coming off the line... impossible to tell when he will make his break in advance... he doesn't disclose that through body language (CBs will tell WRs they like to work on this relentlessly)... now that probably can be coached up, but it is good to attend to these kind of details when evaluating prospects, & what their learning curve might look like...

That's all true.It's hard to evaluate a player's natural catching ability on film or TV. You really want to be live and up close to get a feel for how his hands fit around the ball. "Soft hands" means flexible hands that, by feel, adjust to the ball's shape upon contact and grip it, so the ball isn't hitting a player's hands, but is enveloped by them. Hard to explain, but you know it when you see it. (Or hear it. It should sound like a pluck rather than a pop.) It goes without saying that a receiver should catch the ball exclusively with his hands, not by trapping it against his shoulder pads or with his forearms, etc.

As for running fundamentally sound patterns, there is really a lot that goes into just a simple cut. The first thing (just talking about the cut -- not getting off the line) is to refrain from telegraphing your cut with your eyes or head. The natural tendency when you're running and changing direction is to lead with your head. If you are going to cut to the left, your head turns left an instant before your right foot plants and you turn the rest of your body. That is a "tell" that most NFL receivers have completely eliminated, but I've seen Calvin Johnson do it. Johnson is the best WR prospect I've seen since at least Randy Moss; he's a real natural in many important areas, but he does need work on some of the basic fundamentals. One thing he'll have to work on is turning his head at the same time as he turns his body, not before.

In addition to avoiding telegraphing your cut with your head, you have to avoid telegraphing it with your feet and your weight. A lot of players, especially long-striders, will start chopping their feet (taking much shorter strides) pretty early before they make their cut. (In contrast, Jerry Rice, Steve Largent, and Marvin Harrison would barely chop their feet at all. Amazing to watch.) Many players will also shift their center of gravity (either up or down, depending on the player), just before cutting. (The players who shift it down also tend to lean forward, so that their shoulders end up over their knees instead of staying over their hips.) All of these things slow down the cut by wasting motion in addition to telegraphing the cut, and NFL-quality corners are all savvy enough to use them to their advantage and get a jump on their break.

Those are the basics. Beyond that, some WRs do a great job of changing their pace throughout the course of their routes to keep the defender off balance. They'll give a "false tell" like subtly elevating their center of gravity, but then instead of cutting, they'll accelerate straight ahead. Marvin Harrison is a master of this.

that is the kind of hard hitting information that is hard to get at other sites but you just tossed that off like ordering breakfast...

needless to say, that is EXACTLY the kind of observations & insights i was looking for to populate this thread...

 

[massraider]

One more thing in a running back. Decisivness (that looks like I spelled it wrong). How many times have you heard a coach talk about it: The holes open and close much quicker in the pros, and you can't disco bewhind the line of scrimmage, looking for an opening, then wondering if you should take it. Too many backs don't have that instinct to slam it up in there, and take the 3 or 4 yards, because they've been getting away with looking for the big run since high school. I am sensitive to this trait, having watched Lamont Jordan for the last two years.

A thought about cornerbacks: I think they have to be the smoothest athletes on the field. In the sense that, even while running full speed, they are under complete control. Remember how, no matter how contorted he was, Michael Jordan never hit the ground? You see players attempt Jordan drives every day; they come flying in, twist their body in a pretzel, throw up their layup, and wind up in a heap under the basket, looking for a foul. It seems like Jordan never lost his feet. Like a cat. That's the way I think your CB's have to be. They are chasing some of the fastest people in the world around. That's amazingly difficult. That Revis kid, he just moves like an NFL cornerback.

Pass-rushing DE: That lean, that bend. Think Dwight Freeney. The move where they come around the tackle, and their bodies are almost parallel to the ground as they use the tackles as leverage. DE's that can't do it, get shoved 5 yards past the pocket. Oh, they can get upfield, but they can't turn the corner. If I see a college DE do that, it's promising.

 

[jurb26]

A thought about cornerbacks: I think they have to be the smoothest athletes on the field. In the sense that, even while running full speed, they are under complete control. Remember how, no matter how contorted he was, Michael Jordan never hit the ground? You see players attempt Jordan drives every day; they come flying in, twist their body in a pretzel, throw up their layup, and wind up in a heap under the basket, looking for a foul. It seems like Jordan never lost his feet. Like a cat. That's the way I think your CB's have to be. They are chasing some of the fastest people in the world around. That's amazingly difficult. That Revis kid, he just moves like an NFL cornerback.

When you look at a CB, you really only need to look at a few things. His feet and hips.

 

[Chris Smith]

One more thing in a running back. Decisivness (that looks like I spelled it wrong). How many times have you heard a coach talk about it: The holes open and close much quicker in the pros, and you can't disco bewhind the line of scrimmage, looking for an opening, then wondering if you should take it. Too many backs don't have that instinct to slam it up in there, and take the 3 or 4 yards, because they've been getting away with looking for the big run since high school. I am sensitive to this trait, having watched Lamont Jordan for the last two years.

Definitely one of the chief things to look for with a rookie back. Do they have the instincts to 'feel' the hole as it opens up and then the ability to hit the hole with no hesitation.

Vision is without question one of the biggest attribultes that separates a great back from a serviceable one. The play may call for a 36 off tackle to the right but the best backs will see the back side hole open up across to the other side, cut on a dime and hit that hole running.

If the player displays both instincts and vision, he'll likely go on to have a good pro career.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

For RBs, my big 3 tells are balance, lateral quickness and wiggle in tight spaces. 40 time has little relevance. In this draft, the best I saw for each trait (outside of Peterson and Lynch) were Jackson, Booker and Hunt respectively. The worst I saw for each trait were Bush, Hunt and Pittman. And the rub with Pittman is that there isn't much evidence of him in tight spaces because the OSU line opened such big holes for him. But when I did see him there, he didn't look that good.

 

[pizzatyme]

I like to see a RB be both patient and decisive. If the hole isn't there does he panic and just try to get what he can, or does he have the patience to wait for a crack and then the decisiveness to hit the hole for what he can?

Then the burst of speed is a must too.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

the intent here is to start a discussion about the possibility of finding positional traits & attributes that might be more important than others at having "predictive" power towards sussing out how a player's career might unfold... boding well or ill...

QBs - Release, release, release. Specifically if you can find information on how quick the release is and compare it to what used to be the standard, Marino. A few years ago I picked up a guy off of waivers and he did ok. My plan was to hype his early success and trade him until I watched him on Monday Night where Al Michaels showed a side-by-side tape of his release with Dan Marino and the guy got the ball off faster. His name was Marc Bulger. I kept him and it was one of better moves I had made.RBs - Stiff arm. Others have mentioned great RBs who did not get hit but take another close look at why they did/do not take square shots, its because the great ones deflect and punch with devastating stiff arms. Last year in one of the pre-games LdT and Tiki and others were quizzed and they ALL mentioned that they studied guys like Jim Brown and Emmit Smith and saw they both had devastating stiff arms. They said that they worked on developing that skill and then things began to work for them. If you look at Adrian Peterson the kid lacks this crucial skill right now. Its imperative that he picks this up. William Green never was able to and liked to make contact like AP. If AP develops that stiff arm he's going to be insane.

WRs - Explosive burst YAC. Let me explain. Guy catches the ball and turns to see defenders closing in and BAM he has a JATO (Jet Assisted Take Off) strapped to his thighs that goes off. The truly great ones have that, see Steve Smith as textbook example. Even a novice can recognize Smith has straight line speed but what sets him off is his explosion in short area once he catches the ball which gives him 'jes nuff' separation from defenders where his straight line speed can take it to the hizzy. This JATO type of explosive burst and his small stature allows him to make tight turns which gives him even more separation in small areas.

Saw a stat that no WR over 6'4 has made the Pro Bowl in the last decade. I think tall WRs play a different game where they can't make the small-area separation but Calvin Johnson definitely has the JATO type of explosive burst so I'm real curious to see what he does in the NFL.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

Nice topic Bob.

Since MT did a great job on RBs, I'll take my shot on QBs.



Vision - You can just watch his head and see where he is looking when he is back to pass. Is he staring down his #1 WR, or is he advanced enough to progress through his reads - or even better, is he looking down the safety to make him move where he wants him to go? This is even more important PREsnap. Does the QB notice a SS rolling up into the box, and will he either take note or audible? The best QBs read the defense almost exclusively, as they know where their WRs/TEs/RBs are going to be and all he needs to learn on a given play is what the defense is doing.

Balance - Does he have the ability to get the ball off quickly due to good footwork, or is he in a hurry to get to his 5 or 7 step drop? If his first option is covered, does he have "happy feet" and is chopping them around, or is he in the classic position and just slightly turning his body in unison to be ready to throw? His feet should remain on the ground and/or have slight bounce to his step, to keep him "live" and in the play to ready and deliver the throw. You don't want a QB throwing off his back foot and relying on arm serength alone.

Pocket awareness - Does he feel pressure, and also does he slide around to find the lanes to throw in? QBs under duress in college is where you learn this. Often in the NFL he'll face pressure, so these are the chances to see what he does. Does he always look downfield or does he look to see when that DE / LB is going to light him up? Does he hang in until the bitter end? Does he slide his feet (again, keeping them under him) and move in the pocket well, finding the lane, and target his 3rd/ 4th option, or how quickly will he go to his safety outlet checkdown?

Accuracy - Not just completions, but does he put the ball out in front of his WRs and give them a chance to continue the play in stride? You don't want a QB forcing a ball in space, but you do want the pass to be in a place where his receiver can snatch it out of the air and continue to distance himself from the defender. Even completions may be inaccurate.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

For RBs, my big 3 tells are balance, lateral quickness and wiggle in tight spaces. 40 time has little relevance. In this draft, the best I saw for each trait (outside of Peterson and Lynch) were Jackson, Booker and Hunt respectively. The worst I saw for each trait were Bush, Hunt and Pittman. And the rub with Pittman is that there isn't much evidence of him in tight spaces because the OSU line opened such big holes for him. But when I did see him there, he didn't look that good.

Was this a typo?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

For RBs, my big 3 tells are balance, lateral quickness and wiggle in tight spaces. 40 time has little relevance. In this draft, the best I saw for each trait (outside of Peterson and Lynch) were Jackson, Booker and Hunt respectively. The worst I saw for each trait were Bush, Hunt and Pittman. And the rub with Pittman is that there isn't much evidence of him in tight spaces because the OSU line opened such big holes for him. But when I did see him there, he didn't look that good.

Was this a typo?

LOL, no Hunt is very good in traffic or tight spaces. Speed and lateral quickness help in those situations, but they are not everything. He has pretty poor lateral quickness, but he still manages to make some defenders miss in tight and he shows good leg churn to gain those extra couple of yards. What part did you think was a typo? Him in there at all or being both the best and worst at something?

Edited to add link to DraftGuys feature: Hunt

Several examples of good wiggle and running in tight spaces there.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

For RBs, my big 3 tells are balance, lateral quickness and wiggle in tight spaces. 40 time has little relevance. In this draft, the best I saw for each trait (outside of Peterson and Lynch) were Jackson, Booker and Hunt respectively. The worst I saw for each trait were Bush, Hunt and Pittman. And the rub with Pittman is that there isn't much evidence of him in tight spaces because the OSU line opened such big holes for him. But when I did see him there, he didn't look that good.

Was this a typo?

LOL, no Hunt is very good in traffic or tight spaces. Speed and lateral quickness help in those situations, but they are not everything. He has pretty poor lateral quickness, but he still manages to make some defenders miss in tight and he shows good leg churn to gain those extra couple of yards. What part did you think was a typo? Him in there at all or being both the best and worst at something?

Thought you were doing an "either / or" and it didn't make sense. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

For RBs, my big 3 tells are balance, lateral quickness and wiggle in tight spaces. 40 time has little relevance. In this draft, the best I saw for each trait (outside of Peterson and Lynch) were Jackson, Booker and Hunt respectively. The worst I saw for each trait were Bush, Hunt and Pittman. And the rub with Pittman is that there isn't much evidence of him in tight spaces because the OSU line opened such big holes for him. But when I did see him there, he didn't look that good.

Was this a typo?

LOL, no Hunt is very good in traffic or tight spaces. Speed and lateral quickness help in those situations, but they are not everything. He has pretty poor lateral quickness, but he still manages to make some defenders miss in tight and he shows good leg churn to gain those extra couple of yards. What part did you think was a typo? Him in there at all or being both the best and worst at something?

Thought you were doing an "either / or" and it didn't make sense. Thanks for the clarification.

No problem. I think that's why Hunt in tough for me to feel confident grading. He does do a very good job getting through traffic, churning the legs, getting extra yardage, etc. Yet he has poor lateral quickness and long speed. His acceleration is OK though. I can't see him being a high YPC RB in the NFL, but I could see him being a cross between Bettis and George, with lots of carries for 3 or 4 yards, wearing down a defense for the quicker back (Westbrook) to take advantage of. Or his lack of quickness could render him useless at the NFL level. He's an interesting case for me.

 

[Justloveit]

I used to play corner so maybe I can add some useful info for that particular position.

To be a good defensive back one needs:

-great balance, natural balance with good technique

-great hips, the ability to change direction whilst in the middle of a back peddle.

-agility, this comes with good hips.

-elite speed, corners are always REACTING to wide receivers thus it is essential that they have incredible speed in order to close down following a cut etc.

-mentally strong, along with QB no position in the game is more obvious when an error is made. It is essential that a CB forgets the last play no matter what happened and gets on with the next play. I can't stress how hard this actually is, it's extremely difficult to keep your focus when you've just been burned for a 60 yard TD and the WR is in your ear telling you all about it.

-anticipation, this is something that can be learnt to an extent with film study, but reading of the play and of the WR if you're in man coverage or of the players around you if you're in zone is crucial.

 

[Jene Bramel]

I’ll add more as I think of them, but here are some of the major characteristics I like to see defensive players have at the professional level. Some of these qualities are necessary for more than one position, but I chose to group them where they’re needed most.

DL

Explosion: Quickest off the ball at the snap, powerful first step and burst to penetrate for those in a one-gap responsibility.

Leverage: Ability to get under the pads of the blocker and hold ground, including against double teams. Understanding of how to use body (see Dwight Freeney mention above) to shed block and penetrate correct gap/not get turned away from the play.

Hands: Strength to engage blocker and shed as needed.

Acceleration and closing speed: Primarily for edge rushers and tweeners, the ability to quickly collapse the pocket and make the play.

Array of pass rush moves: Ability to improvise against a double team or an OL who defends one move well and not others.

Motor: Relentless, never quit attitude to make plays in pursuit and pass rush.

LB

Playing speed: Quickness to attack the gap and close down the hole. Ability to pursue from sideline-to-sideline. Ability to elude a blocker and still make the tackle.

Instincts: Understanding of pursuit angles and run-pass keys. Innate ability to be in the right gap at the right time.

Controlled aggression/acceleration: Always moving at speed but extra aggressive/acceleraton to make the play at the line, in the backfield, etc. Understanding of pursuit angles and where cutback lanes are.

Hands: Ability to shed blocks of bigger linemen. Convert tipped passes into turnovers.

Coverage skill: Athletic and quick enough to keep pace with receivers. Understanding and anticipation of most likely pass patterns in man and zone coverage.

CB

Covered well above but a few extra thoughts to add and flesh out.

Footwork: As noted above, correct footwork is more important than raw speed. Ability to keep feet underneath and change direction quickly.

Fluid athleticism: Goes with good footwork, hip turn and change of direction skill.

Anticipation: Understanding of pass routes and route running tells. Instinct to break on the ball at the right time.

Recovery speed: Different than playing speed. Ability to accelerate to the ball when beaten or after a false step.

Ball awareness: Understanding of on-field position, when to turn and play the ball. Ability to play the ball. Hands to turn a pass defended into an interception.

S

See also many cornerback skills (Footwork, anticipation, recovery speed and ball awareness) and the controlled aggression/acceleration in the linebacker section.

Run-pass recognition: Understanding of play-action keys. Ability to quickly diagnose run play and support to the play side.

 

[Thom Yorke]

One more thing in a running back. Decisivness (that looks like I spelled it wrong). How many times have you heard a coach talk about it: The holes open and close much quicker in the pros, and you can't disco bewhind the line of scrimmage, looking for an opening, then wondering if you should take it. Too many backs don't have that instinct to slam it up in there, and take the 3 or 4 yards, because they've been getting away with looking for the big run since high school. I am sensitive to this trait, having watched Lamont Jordan for the last two years.

Definitely one of the chief things to look for with a rookie back. Do they have the instincts to 'feel' the hole as it opens up and then the ability to hit the hole with no hesitation.

Vision is without question one of the biggest attribultes that separates a great back from a serviceable one. The play may call for a 36 off tackle to the right but the best backs will see the back side hole open up across to the other side, cut on a dime and hit that hole running.

If the player displays both instincts and vision, he'll likely go on to have a good pro career.

This comes as no surprise, given that he's one of the all time greats, but LT does a great job with taking that 2-4 yards, rather than waiting and running out of bounds for no gain or getting hit in the backfield.

 

[switz]

One more thing in a running back. Decisivness (that looks like I spelled it wrong). How many times have you heard a coach talk about it: The holes open and close much quicker in the pros, and you can't disco bewhind the line of scrimmage, looking for an opening, then wondering if you should take it. Too many backs don't have that instinct to slam it up in there, and take the 3 or 4 yards, because they've been getting away with looking for the big run since high school. I am sensitive to this trait, having watched Lamont Jordan for the last two years.

Definitely one of the chief things to look for with a rookie back. Do they have the instincts to 'feel' the hole as it opens up and then the ability to hit the hole with no hesitation.

Vision is without question one of the biggest attribultes that separates a great back from a serviceable one. The play may call for a 36 off tackle to the right but the best backs will see the back side hole open up across to the other side, cut on a dime and hit that hole running.

If the player displays both instincts and vision, he'll likely go on to have a good pro career.

You can tell whether a RB has good vision or not, by hw much he turns his head. If he turns his head to see where the hole is, he doesn't have good vision, he will telegraph his moves, and will get tackled alot behind the line.

 

[switz]

Nice topic Bob.Since MT did a great job on RBs, I'll take my shot on QBs.

Huh? I thought he broke down WRs.

 

[Bob Magaw]

I’ll add more as I think of them, but here are some of the major characteristics I like to see defensive players have at the professional level. Some of these qualities are necessary for more than one position, but I chose to group them where they’re needed most.

DL

Explosion: Quickest off the ball at the snap, powerful first step and burst to penetrate for those in a one-gap responsibility.

Leverage: Ability to get under the pads of the blocker and hold ground, including against double teams. Understanding of how to use body (see Dwight Freeney mention above) to shed block and penetrate correct gap/not get turned away from the play.

Hands: Strength to engage blocker and shed as needed.

Acceleration and closing speed: Primarily for edge rushers and tweeners, the ability to quickly collapse the pocket and make the play.

Array of pass rush moves: Ability to improvise against a double team or an OL who defends one move well and not others.

Motor: Relentless, never quit attitude to make plays in pursuit and pass rush.

LB

Playing speed: Quickness to attack the gap and close down the hole. Ability to pursue from sideline-to-sideline. Ability to elude a blocker and still make the tackle.

Instincts: Understanding of pursuit angles and run-pass keys. Innate ability to be in the right gap at the right time.

Controlled aggression/acceleration: Always moving at speed but extra aggressive/acceleraton to make the play at the line, in the backfield, etc. Understanding of pursuit angles and where cutback lanes are.

Hands: Ability to shed blocks of bigger linemen. Convert tipped passes into turnovers.

Coverage skill: Athletic and quick enough to keep pace with receivers. Understanding and anticipation of most likely pass patterns in man and zone coverage.

CB

Covered well above but a few extra thoughts to add and flesh out.

Footwork: As noted above, correct footwork is more important than raw speed. Ability to keep feet underneath and change direction quickly.

Fluid athleticism: Goes with good footwork, hip turn and change of direction skill.

Anticipation: Understanding of pass routes and route running tells. Instinct to break on the ball at the right time.

Recovery speed: Different than playing speed. Ability to accelerate to the ball when beaten or after a false step.

Ball awareness: Understanding of on-field position, when to turn and play the ball. Ability to play the ball. Hands to turn a pass defended into an interception.

S

See also many cornerback skills (Footwork, anticipation, recovery speed and ball awareness) and the controlled aggression/acceleration in the linebacker section.

Run-pass recognition: Understanding of play-action keys. Ability to quickly diagnose run play and support to the play side.

thanx for adding, jene (& to everybody)...you da man...

i'll be back to comment on these this evening... hope to see some more group contributions...

we're building a nice scouting tell "heuristic glossary" for film breakdown purposes

 

[WhoDat]

Jene mentioned Playing Speed and that needs to be applied to everyone not playing QB. Specific to most discussions on this board leading up to the draft, there was or usual is a slight obsessive compulsive twitch concerning a player's 40 time. It has a place but it does not, opinion, override what a player does in pads on the field in a game. As they say, tape does not lie.

For every player like J. Rice, K. Johnson or A. Boldin that were not technically fast there are 10-20 R. Nehemiahs or J. Jetts that never panned out. If you get a chance or the opportunity to see any game tape of Rice from college, watch it. That guy had another gear but, of course, that is not what the stop watch said. In terms of importance of Playing Speed for defensive players add a multiplier of 10 for people playing DE, LB and DB.

My feeling is that the two telling signs of a defensive player's abilities are their Playing Speed and Reaction Speed. I am not that concerned about their track time nor do I care about a veritcal measurement. If the area between the ears cannot work with the eyes and feet in a timely fashion, then there is no sense being on the field. Not on Sundays. In theory everyone is equally athletic at that level but not everyone can recognize/respond to what is happening with the same quickness. Now, a healthy stop watch time is helpful and it augments Playing/Reaction Speed, which is now speaking to Recovery Speed, but it should not take precedent.

 

[Jene Bramel]

Well, I left out probably the most important characteristic for every defensive position.

Tackling: Understands proper tackling angle and technique. Drives and explodes through the target. Wraps up securely rather than lowering shoulder or attempting arm tackles. Understands when and where to make an effort to strip the ball.

 

[wannabee]

Maybe this is just me, but I think WAY too many people judge a WR on 40 time speed and not enough on quickness. I am anti-Matt Jones for this reason. He does not have the quickness to beat a CB that is just as fast or faster. The WRs that are quick in open and tight spaces usually are always open and we shake out heads why.

 

[Steel Dillo]

I like to see a RB be both patient and decisive. If the hole isn't there does he panic and just try to get what he can, or does he have the patience to wait for a crack and then the decisiveness to hit the hole for what he can?Then the burst of speed is a must too.

I think this is why Willie Parker has become a successful RB. Last year, he learned to be patient behind the line and then hit the jets when he saw a crack.

 

[bostonfred]

One thing I love to see in a defensive player is a guy who is always looking to make a play, even when he's not near it. The same guy who takes an angle on where the receiver MIGHT go if he breaks a tackle back here, or who you'll see jumping over the ballcarrier just after he got tackled. Another good sign is when he turns to block immediately when the ball changes possession.

A defensive back shouldn't just have ball awareness, but patience. When he's running step for step with the receiver, a good defensive back isn't trying to make the play until the last possible moment. The guy who jumps a moment early or puts his arms up without looking back at the ball is going to get torched; the guy who commits to the interception a split second early is going to both make and give up a lot of big plays. Tackling from behind is big, too - once the receiver has made the catch, you want to see someone who has the burst to get close before he tackles for the body instead of trying to make the big hit or tackle right away.

With a quarterback, I want a guy who not only avoids the pass rush, but moves to the safest part in the pocket while looking upfield, kind of like a goalie who moves around the net to block off the possible shot angles before they take the shot.

 

[Sleeper 43]

I look for quick twitch in RB's, the response time N , S , E and W cannot be measured in the 40. See Caddy See Bush

I also like a thick ### , I call them Mules. If the butt looks like you could set a lunch tray on it flat then you got a good bubble. Those hammys/quads all link up to the butt and it all equals power. See MJD See Michael Turner for extreme cases of the bubble.

 

[Ilov80s]

A thought about cornerbacks: I think they have to be the smoothest athletes on the field. In the sense that, even while running full speed, they are under complete control. Remember how, no matter how contorted he was, Michael Jordan never hit the ground? You see players attempt Jordan drives every day; they come flying in, twist their body in a pretzel, throw up their layup, and wind up in a heap under the basket, looking for a foul. It seems like Jordan never lost his feet. Like a cat. That's the way I think your CB's have to be. They are chasing some of the fastest people in the world around. That's amazingly difficult. That Revis kid, he just moves like an NFL cornerback.

When you look at a CB, you really only need to look at a few things. His feet and hips.

Corners also great timing. The ability their attack on the receiver or the ball is essential. A split second too early and its a penalty; a split second too late and they are beaten. The ability to time a jump ball, a hit, or a break-up are essential.For WRs, I would add aggressive to the ball. The speed of the NFL requires WRs attack the ball. Some WRs have a bad habit of allowing the ball to come to them, instead of going after the ball. The mentality should be like that of a PF going after a rebound.

 

[Warpig]

For me, here's how I break it down and what I look for:

RB's - the most important thing I look for is field vision and balance. I'm not really a speed guy. Emmitt Smith wasn't very fast and look what he accomplished. I coach pop warner football and we have a kid that frustrates us to death because he's so slow but he has an uncanny ability to read the entire field. He can "feel" where his blockers are without actually turning to look for them and make his cuts accordingly. This also enables him to avoid bigs hits since he can "feel" where the defenders are coming from. If he were faster he'd never get touched! His cutting ability (balance) helps him gain more yards and avoid big hits.

LB's - You were dead on in your comparison of your LB's and RB's having similar vision. Most people will tell you that your LB's and RB's are the best athletes on the field. Good LB's, like RB's, will also have excellent field vision and balance. Another quality I look for in LB's is instinct. They must have superior vision to see the running lanes open up, read motion, play action, pulling linemen and down blocks by TE's, crackback's from WR's...basically, EVERYTHING! They have to be able to react in a fraction of a second. Like you said, they have to be able to slide between blockers and get into position to make the tackle, preferably in the backfield or LOS. They have to be able to redirect and stop on a dime should the RB cut back or to avoid chop blocks.

To me, I think Vision and that uncanny "feel" I spoke of is just God-given. You can't coach that. You either have it or you don't and I'm sure the elite players all have that.

 

[Thom Yorke]

I look for quick twitch in RB's, the response time N , S , E and W cannot be measured in the 40. See Caddy See Bush

I also like a thick ### , I call them Mules. If the butt looks like you could set a lunch tray on it flat then you got a good bubble. Those hammys/quads all link up to the butt and it all equals power. See MJD See Michael Turner for extreme cases of the bubble.

[sirmixalot] I like big butts and I cannot lie...[/sirmixalot]

 

[Sleeper 43]

I look for quick twitch in RB's, the response time N , S , E and W cannot be measured in the 40. See Caddy See Bush

I also like a thick ### , I call them Mules. If the butt looks like you could set a lunch tray on it flat then you got a good bubble. Those hammys/quads all link up to the butt and it all equals power. See MJD See Michael Turner for extreme cases of the bubble.

[sirmixalot] I like big butts and I cannot lie...[/sirmixalot]

 

[daveR]

O-line...... Feet. Agility.

 

[nygiants56]

Rbs with low center of gravity, could also be interpreted as balance.MJDrew-recentBarry Sander-classic

give me a guy like Chris Carter. Uncanny ability to catch a football anywhere near him. eyes in the back of his head. good blocker, great all-around player, great mentor to younger athletes, a natural leader. a guy who dealt with addiction and adversity off the field, was cut by Philly, and turned it into a positive and didn't mope about it. Became an inspiration to many, and one of the most accomplished receivers to ever play in the NFL.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

[sirmixalot] I like big butts and I cannot lie...[/sirmixalot]

I remember when Joel Buchsbaum said that Ray Roberts (OL, Virginia, Seahawks) had the biggest "bubble butt he'd" ever seen.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

Nice topic Bob.Since MT did a great job on RBs, I'll take my shot on QBs.

Huh? I thought he broke down WRs.

Clearly I need more sleep.

 

[beto]

The problem I run in to with this is sample size. Take Jerious Norwood as an example last year. I never saw him play in college until the Senior Bowl where I thought he was terrible, no vision, no balance. Then seeing him in preseason he makes these amazing runs and I already traded the pick I could have used on him. Frustrating.

 

[Hooper31]

WR: A few have spoken about hands, but the biggest tell for me is the use of the body as a crutch to make up for the hands. I tend to notice receivers that can't lock up a pass without cradling it against their torso. Further, the arms work as a shock absorber when taking a big hit. Receivers that have to cradle the ball against the torso tend to have the ball pop out more when getting rocked by a safety.

Other things I look for:

Ability to "snatch" the ball out of the air.

Willingness to go up and fight for the ball in traffic as opposed to letting it come down.

Ability to catch the ball in stride as opposed to leaving their feet to catch every pass.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

There are a few articles on this topic right now over at Mat Miller's Blog, with more apparently coming soon. (He's done QB, RB, and FB so far.)

 

[Bob Magaw]

very nice find, maurile...

thanx for passing it along...

highly recommended to the thread/board...

* more thoughts on defense...

LB - measurables should always be a COMPONENT of the evaluation process, & it can be a useful proxy for projections to an extent, but it shouldn't be a crutch or substitute for the larger, more comprehensive & encompassing breakdown... a hammer is useful if you have some nailing to do, but it would be a pretty blunt instrument for watch repair... guys like zach thomas would have been lost in a hardcore measurables based screen... which brings up the extremely important traits which i somehow neglected above... first step & the ability to generally be flowing in the right direction... singletary had those bug eyes & was a relentless student of the game... just like great QBs seem to know what a defense is going to do & can pick them apart (think montana), great LBs (& defenders) are wired into tendencies, which give them the ability to anticipate what is going to happen next & be at the spot before everybody else (sometimes ahead of the offense, who knows where they are going!)... it maybe isn't an accident that one of the top young LBs in the game, lofa tatupu, was a prep QB & seems to have a deep understanding at a fundamental level what offenses are trying to do... clearly a guy like singletary had phenomenal instincts & reflexes, which enabled him to not only make tackles downfield, but actually meet the RB in the hole AT THE LOS... LBs with those kinds of special instincts, reflexes, first step quickness & ability to flow in the right direction are tip off towards potential future success, & conversely, there lack could spell trouble...

DE - the ability to bend, dip, twist & contort the body into acrobatic positions to be able to take the shortest & quickest path to the QB (whether outside or inside) is big... based on the little film i've seen of gaines adams, he looks to have it & i expect big things from him in the future, if not necessarily immediately out of the gate... timing is important, to not only track a stationary QB but hit them on the move... the ability to keep their head up like a good point guard starting a fast break or a QB who can keep a play alive on the move, & maintain field awareness & ability to see what is going on around them at all times... not lunging (until they are swooping in for the kill) but staying balanced & over their feet, keeping blockers off of them & away from their body with good hand use & technique... staying on their feet, the ability to creatively & adaptively mix in different moves (outside, inside counters, rip, swim, club, hump, etc) & string them together, like an athletic & talented RB or WR would in the open field or when about to be tackled... the ability to be functional in the run game, hold ground at the POA & string plays outside is a bonus...

S - run pass recognition is huge... if they are always biting hard on play action & fakes that could be disastrous for a position with last line of defense in the job description... michael boulware looked like an emergent star as a rookie but has had a big problem with this issue, to the point of being benched... knowing what the coverages are, knowing when to provide over the top help for CBs & where, what to do if a zone is flooded... it helps if they can track the ball in the air & break on it... WR-like hands are a plus... so is robust & resilient mini LB-like tackling ability, when RBs break into the secondary, & to contend with some of the bigger WRs... leaping ability is a plus... studying WR tendencies (some of the things discussed above) to thwart sometimes quicker & faster WRs through superior football smarts... ability to read the QB... taking proper angles in open field tackling & recovering in coverage are MASSIVELY important for the position, & chronic, critical lapses there probably a deal breaker at the next level, going against skill position players routinely faster & more athletic than seen in college...

* the talk about singletary & tatupu & their MENTAL edge points directly towards a discussion of why the scouting process is as much art as science (& probably will be for a long time to come, if not always), & gets to the crux of this point...

very hard from looking at film to know what is going on inside singletary & tatupu's head & heart... we can make inferences about it, but not have direct knowledge of it in the same way as we do, say, for instance of their 40 time, cone & shuttle drils, bench reps...

psychology may have in the past tried to emulate the "hard" sciences like physics, but will probably always be on shakier ground as a "predictive" science, if only for the obvious reason that humans are a much more complex subject of study than measuring the rate of speed at which different size & weight objects descend from a similar distance...

bringing in mathematical & statistical tools can be useful when appropriate, but when differences in subject matter are lost sight of & violence is actually done to it, a disservice is done... we know where haley's comet will be in centuries & millenia sense, but we may not know where a person or even lower level life form will be a few minutes from now... that is a profound difference that must be accounted for... interestingly, GROUPS of people & statistical analysis of aggregates & populations may be more useful for predictive purposes than studying individuals...