Brett Favre v. John Elway (1 Viewer)

[Happy Schnapps]

Alright... I need to add my $0.02 here. As far as how valuable a superbowl win for a QB is in terms of his worth, one must consider the effects that the salary cap has had. What I mean is, there is so much parity in the NFL right now that it is impossible to build a dynasty team such that the 49ers had in the late 80's and early 90's, the Steelers had in the 70's and the Cowboys had in the early 90's. QBs like Montana, Young, Aikman, Bradshaw, and Kelly all had the benefit of playing in an era in which owners with deep pockets could afford to keep a championship team intact for a decade or more. Lets' face it... the dynasty teams are long gone, and the QB position does not mean as much as it once did in the playoffs, which is why you see QBs like Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer winning Superbowls. Seriously, would anybody have even blinked if Anthony Wright had made it to the big one this year? Not me.

 

[smlevin]

Alright... I need to add my $0.02 here. As far as how valuable a superbowl win for a QB is in terms of his worth, one must consider the effects that the salary cap has had. What I mean is, there is so much parity in the NFL right now that it is impossible to build a dynasty team such that the 49ers had in the late 80's and early 90's, the Steelers had in the 70's and the Cowboys had in the early 90's. QBs like Montana, Young, Aikman, Bradshaw, and Kelly all had the benefit of playing in an era in which owners with deep pockets could afford to keep a championship team intact for a decade or more. Lets' face it... the dynasty teams are long gone, and the QB position does not mean as much as it once did in the playoffs, which is why you see QBs like Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer winning Superbowls. Seriously, would anybody have even blinked if Anthony Wright had made it to the big one this year? Not me.

True, but every QB we are talking about- including Favre - was around and competitive before the salary cap. So, this is really a non-issue.

 

[Happy Schnapps]

True, but every QB we are talking about- including Favre - was around and competitive before the salary cap. So, this is really a non-issue.

Someone refresh my memory... when was the salary cap installed? I think it was around 1998 or so, right around the time that Elway won his second Super Bowl. My point is that Favre has had to play the last 5 years or so in a salary cap system which has prevented the Packers from forming any dynasty. This also reinforces the point that Superbowl wins have more to do with the team than the QB. What more proof is there than what the NFL has morphed into over the last 5 years. Teams that play as a team win Championships.IMHO, if the salary cap is not installed, the Packers probably go to at least 1 more Superbowl, if not 2. That's a pretty bold statement, I understand, but there you go.

 

[smlevin]

Someone refresh my memory... when was the salary cap installed? I think it was around 1998 or so, right around the time that Elway won his second Super Bowl. My point is that Favre has had to play the last 5 years or so in a salary cap system which has prevented the Packers from forming any dynasty. This also reinforces the point that Superbowl wins have more to do with the team than the QB. What more proof is there than what the NFL has morphed into over the last 5 years. Teams that play as a team win Championships.IMHO, if the salary cap is not installed, the Packers probably go to at least 1 more Superbowl, if not 2. That's a pretty bold statement, I understand, but there you go.

OK- but that is only ONE of the players we are talking about. AND, Favre played a lot of his early playoff games - including when they won their Super bowls - without a salary cap, and against the "dynasty" 49er and 'Boys teams.

 

[smlevin]

Finally - Favre LOST his second Super Bowl to the John Elway led Broncos - remember? What makes you think w/o a cap they'd have been back the year after they lost the Bowl?

 

[Happy Schnapps]

Someone refresh my memory... when was the salary cap installed? I think it was around 1998 or so, right around the time that Elway won his second Super Bowl. My point is that Favre has had to play the last 5 years or so in a salary cap system which has prevented the Packers from forming any dynasty. This also reinforces the point that Superbowl wins have more to do with the team than the QB. What more proof is there than what the NFL has morphed into over the last 5 years. Teams that play as a team win Championships.IMHO, if the salary cap is not installed, the Packers probably go to at least 1 more Superbowl, if not 2. That's a pretty bold statement, I understand, but there you go.

OK- but that is only ONE of the players we are talking about. AND, Favre played a lot of his early playoff games - including when they won their Super bowls - without a salary cap, and against the "dynasty" 49er and 'Boys teams.

Well, the two names in the title of this thread are Elway and Favre. Favre has played 8 years in an uncapped NFL and 5 in a capped NFL. Elway played his entire career in an uncapped NFL in which he appeared in and won all of his Superbowls.My only points is that when comparing Favre to any other QB, the salary cap effect must be taken into account if you are going to put an emphasis on Superbowl victories. This is the reason I stated that the Pack might have showed up in at least 1 if not 2 Superbowls without the cap in place.

 

[Happy Schnapps]

Finally - Favre LOST his second Super Bowl to the John Elway led Broncos - remember? What makes you think w/o a cap they'd have been back the year after they lost the Bowl?

To base your opinion of which QB is better on ONE game is assinine, IMO. I'm not sure if that's what you're doing, but if you are, well it's assinine.After the 1998 season, the Packers did some salary trimming and lost several key players on defense if I remember. I'd have to go back and look it up, but I'm pretty sure the cap was the reason why they were not able to retain the same team. With the same team fielded in 1999 and 2000... who knows. IMO, the Packers were on their way to forming a dynasty that started in about 1994 or so.

 

[smlevin]

Elway played his entire career in an uncapped NFL in which he appeared in and won all of his Superbowls.

Ummmmmm . . . . .Try again.

 

[smlevin]

To base your opinion of which QB is better on ONE game is assinine, IMO. I'm not sure if that's what you're doing, but if you are, well it's assinine.

Nope - wasn't. Don't rate either QB "higher" - I actually see them as fairly equal. Dependent on what Favre does with his remaining years, Favre may move up to #3 in front of Marino on my personal list. If Favre breaks Marino's major records, he will shoot past him on my all-time list

 

[Happy Schnapps]

Well apparantly, the cap has been in place since 1994... hmmm... nuts to me. I don't remember that happening that far back.

linkee

So, actually... Bert has play vitually his entire career under the cap. I only call him Bert, because that is what Brett's name should be. Bert Favre (pronounced Bert Ferve).

Taht is all.

 

[Perfect Tommy]

The Salary cap was indeed instituted in 1994. In the beginning every team had a clean slate. In fact teams were given the opportunity to give signing bonuses and long term contracts without the bonuses counting against the cap just before the cap went into effect. The 49ers and Cowboys in particular took advantage of this and so the cap didn't start hurting them until around 1998 or 1999. The Packers, not being a rich team, were not able to take advantage of these loopholes so Favre indeed has played through the era of parity, and is pretty much the only candidate to suffer from this. Despite Favre playing through such an era, he has led the Packers to at least a .500 record every single season. None of the other QBs can make that claim even with their advantages.On another note, some people have claimed that Elway's Broncos beating Favre's Packers in Super Bowl XXXII should be a mark in favor of Elway. Well, here are their stats from that game from an old box score I scared upPassingGreen Bay Att. Comp. Yds. TD Int.Favre 42 25 256 3 1DenverElway 22 12 123 0 1Is this really supposed to be the deciding factor in naming Elway the superior QB?Please. Somebody else mentioned that Joe Montana was a better leader than Favre. Not true. His head was as good or better than Favre's, but the China Doll couldn't inspire with his toughness and ability to play through pain like the unparallelled Favre. And when Montana had to leave the game, his teammates didn't suffer a let down. No, it is Favre who is able to buoy the hearts of those around him to lift them up to their highest level of play.

 

[Happy Schnapps]

PassingGreen Bay Att. Comp. Yds. TD Int.Favre 42 25 256 3 1DenverElway 22 12 123 0 1

yeah... it was probably Elway, and not Davis that led them to that Superbowl Victory. I'd like to get a look at Elways stats for that year.

 

[Happy Schnapps]

actually they're not too bad... nevermind502 280 3635 27 11

 

[Ghost Rider]

Elway threw for 3635 yards with 27 touchdowns and 11 interceptions in 1997, the season of Denver's first Super Bowl title. Not too shabby for a guy who someone said was playing with diminished skills.

 

[Perfect Tommy]

As I recall, Elway himself admitted his skills were diminishing as Favre is admitting now. Happens to everybody. Though I am a diehard Favre supporter, no QB has ever finished out his career the way Elway has. Before his last two seasons, people considered Marino the have had the better career of the two. But the way Elway's teams finished, he moved up past Marino in most people's minds. And there is no doubt Elway was still an excellent QB to close out his career, just not quite as good as he once was, at least physically.

 

[BoltBacker]

Well, in Favre's 12 years in Green Bay, he's had seven 1,000 yard rushers (7/12 = 58.3%)

2000-2003 (Ahman Green-Four Times)

1997, 1999 (Dorsey Levens-Twice)
1995 (Edgar Bennett-Once)While in Denver, Elways had eight 1,000 yard rusher in 16 years (8/16 = 50.0%)

1995-1998 (Terrell Davis-Four Times)
1991 (Gaston Green-Once)
1989-1990 (Bobby Humphrey-Twice)
1984 (Sammy Winder-Once)Cheers

Good stats! I looked for them, but couldn't find the stats from retired players anywhere. The Gaston Green 1,000 yard season was especially frustrating... because I was SURE that it happened but I couldn't find a link.I was a bit surprised Winder only had one 1,000 yard season and I completely forgot Edgar Bennett had a 1,000 yards........ but overall I think eight 1,000 yard rushers is more than most of the "Elway played with a bunch of duds" crowd is ever willing to admit.

Again, thanks for finding the stats!

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I hate this argument when comparing individuals. Teams win Championships, not individuals. Of Baseball, Football, Hockey and Basketball the only real good game for comparing stats is Baseball. In Baseball you stand at the plate on your own. No one blocks for you or feeds you a pass.

But isn't the QBs job to lead his team to victory? Regardless of the stats? That was my point, and I still think that is the most important criteria in judging QBs. Not necessarily SB wins, but overall victories in the playoffs and in big games. Favre is 1-1 in SBs and Elway is 2-3. So Elway led his team to 3 more SB appearances than Favre. To me, that is a deciding point in the argument.

So Bradshaw and Montana are better than Favre and Elway? Harris, Greene, Blount, Ham, Lambert, Webster, Swann, Stalworth, Greenwood... didn't have anything to do with the Steelers 4 Championships? Rice, Clark, Lott... didn't lift a finger to help Montana... I'm being sarcastic, but my point is that QB's do not do it on their own. How would Archie Manning rank based on your accessment of QB talent? What if Elway went to the Colts and Favre stayed with Atlanta? I doubt each QB takes their teams to as many Superbowls. Stats do not tell the whole story in football. There is no stat for how well the battle goes in the trenches. There is no stat for how much pocket time a QB gets. Your argument should compare the Broncos to the Packers, not Elway to Favre. Looking just at the QB performance I think Marino was the best I ever saw. His 1984 season was jus unbelievable. Quick, who was his RB that year? I don't even remember, but I do remember how quick his release was. In the 1984 AFC Championship game vs the Steelers he was unstoppable. The Steelers rush would get in there so fast (remember Mike Meriweather?) and you would think Dan was just throwing the ball away, but there was either Clayton or Duper... Everyone knew the Dolphins were going to beat you with the pass, but you still couldn't stop them.

In the other thread (Top QBs of last 20 years), I put in my idea about team makeup. You're correct that the overall teams helped QBs like Montana, Young and Aikman. But I still think that the 3 things I look at, in order, when determining a QB's value or rank, are:1) Victories, especially in the playoffs and SB. No one is saying that you have to win a bunch of SBs to be considered great, but you should really get there a couple of times and get into the playoffs and conference championship games a decent amount.2) Statistics/film. How good were their numbers and how good did they look?3) Team support/talent. How much help did they get?Let's compare these 3 guys on these:1) Victories - Elway then Favre then Marino2) Stats - Marino then Favre (at career end) then Elway3) Team (less support first) - Favre then Marino then ElwaySo if I give 3 points to the first QB, 2 to the second and 1 to the third in each category, and weigh Victories by 3 points, Stats by 2 and Team by 1, I get:Favre - 13 pointsElway - 12 pointsMarino - 11 pointsHmm...I guess Favre is better then Elway.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I was a bit surprised Winder only had one 1,000 yard season and I completely forgot Edgar Bennett had a 1,000 yards........ but overall I think eight 1,000 yard rushers is more than most of the "Elway played with a bunch of duds" crowd is ever willing to admit. Again, thanks for finding the stats!

I said BEFORE THE TERRELL DAVIS YEARS. In other words then, in the 12 seasons he played without T.D., Elways only had 4 1000 yard rushers, meaning 1 every 3 seasons. That isn't much help.

 

[Ghost Rider]

But I still think that the 3 things I look at, in order, when determining a QB's value or rank, are:1) Victories, especially in the playoffs and SB. No one is saying that you have to win a bunch of SBs to be considered great, but you should really get there a couple of times and get into the playoffs and conference championship games a decent amount.2) Statistics/film. How good were their numbers and how good did they look?3) Team support/talent. How much help did they get?Let's compare these 3 guys on these:1) Victories - Elway then Favre then Marino2) Stats - Marino then Favre (at career end) then Elway3) Team (less support first) - Favre then Marino then ElwaySo if I give 3 points to the first QB, 2 to the second and 1 to the third in each category, and weigh Victories by 3 points, Stats by 2 and Team by 1, I get:Favre - 13 pointsElway - 12 pointsMarino - 11 pointsHmm...I guess Favre is better then Elway.

Marino has more wins than Favre all-time, so he should be ahead of Favre in that category.If you think Elway had more support over the course of his entire career than Marino or Favre, then you are drunk.

 

[smlevin]

But I still think that the 3 things I look at, in order, when determining a QB's value or rank, are:1) Victories, especially in the playoffs and SB. No one is saying that you have to win a bunch of SBs to be considered great, but you should really get there a couple of times and get into the playoffs and conference championship games a decent amount.2) Statistics/film. How good were their numbers and how good did they look?3) Team support/talent. How much help did they get?Let's compare these 3 guys on these:1) Victories - Elway then Favre then Marino2) Stats - Marino then Favre (at career end) then Elway3) Team (less support first) - Favre then Marino then ElwaySo if I give 3 points to the first QB, 2 to the second and 1 to the third in each category, and weigh Victories by 3 points, Stats by 2 and Team by 1, I get:Favre - 13 pointsElway - 12 pointsMarino - 11 pointsHmm...I guess Favre is better then Elway.

Marino has more wins than Favre all-time, so he should be ahead of Favre in that category.If you think Elway had more support over the course of his entire career than Marino or Favre, then you are drunk.

No you are. Name the Dolphins' years under Marino of EITHER top-15 defense or a 1000 yard rusher. Now tell me how many times they made the playoffs/had winning seasons.He had a 1000 yard rusher once - and that was Karim Abdul Jabbar under JJ. He had a top-15 defense two, maybe three, times - in 17 years. He managed one Super Bowl appearance, quite a few AFC Championship game appearances (incidentally, two during the Buffalo Bills 4-year Super Bowl run), and many,many playoff appearances. With FAR less team support than Elway. You are drunk, high, stoned, and ignorant of the facts if you think Elway was not supported by good teams in his 5+ AFC Championship appearances. STOP denegrating other heroes to prop up yours. It makes you look petty, and your arguments end up very lame.Talk about how good your guy is - don't bash mine. If you do, make sure you get it right.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

As a lifelong Pats fan and Dolphins hater, I'm here to say Dan Marino is a far better quarterback than either John Elway or Joe Montana. TD carried Elway and the WCO carried Montana (as it carries Garcia today).Did you see what Manning did to the Bucs this year? Marino did that scores of times throughout his career. He was simply amazing.Favre = Marino in a good football program.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

But I still think that the 3 things I look at, in order, when determining a QB's value or rank, are:1) Victories, especially in the playoffs and SB. No one is saying that you have to win a bunch of SBs to be considered great, but you should really get there a couple of times and get into the playoffs and conference championship games a decent amount.2) Statistics/film. How good were their numbers and how good did they look?3) Team support/talent. How much help did they get?Let's compare these 3 guys on these:1) Victories - Elway then Favre then Marino2) Stats - Marino then Favre (at career end) then Elway3) Team (less support first) - Favre then Marino then ElwaySo if I give 3 points to the first QB, 2 to the second and 1 to the third in each category, and weigh Victories by 3 points, Stats by 2 and Team by 1, I get:Favre - 13 pointsElway - 12 pointsMarino - 11 pointsHmm...I guess Favre is better then Elway.

Marino has more wins than Favre all-time, so he should be ahead of Favre in that category.If you think Elway had more support over the course of his entire career than Marino or Favre, then you are drunk.

No you are. Name the Dolphins' years under Marino of EITHER top-15 defense or a 1000 yard rusher. Now tell me how many times they made the playoffs/had winning seasons.He had a 1000 yard rusher once - and that was Karim Abdul Jabbar under JJ. He had a top-15 defense two, maybe three, times - in 17 years. He managed one Super Bowl appearance, quite a few AFC Championship game appearances (incidentally, two during the Buffalo Bills 4-year Super Bowl run), and many,many playoff appearances. With FAR less team support than Elway. You are drunk, high, stoned, and ignorant of the facts if you think Elway was not supported by good teams in his 5+ AFC Championship appearances. STOP denegrating other heroes to prop up yours. It makes you look petty, and your arguments end up very lame.Talk about how good your guy is - don't bash mine. If you do, make sure you get it right.

Wow, thanks for the support smlevin. There are no funny substances in my system and I agree that Elway had the most support from his team of all 3 of those guys. Have you read this thread? The parts where everyone argues that TD won the SBs for Denver, not Elway? That's support. The big question for me was Favre vs. Marino. I seem to think that Favre had the better RBs, WRs are split, but Marino had the better OL and probably the DEFs are split. Marino also had the better coach even though, as a Bills fan, saying that makes me want to vomit. My brother and I learned what the middle finger meant from watching Daddy AND Mommy point it at the TV everytime they would show Shula. Anyway, close call, but Favre had less support than Marino. As for victories, again, I think that Favre had more success in the playoffs and that is where I think a QB really means alot to his team. Did Hasselbeck or Favre factor heavily into that game last week? I'd say that you could argue that as good a game as Hasselbeck had, he was a pretty big factor in losing the game for the Seahawks. In 10 years, people may forget Al Harris, but they will probably note that the Seahawks under Hasselbeck were 1 and done in the playoffs this year. I think that works out fine.

 

[BoltBacker]

I said BEFORE THE TERRELL DAVIS YEARS. In other words then, in the 12 seasons he played without T.D., Elways only had 4 1000 yard rushers, meaning 1 every 3 seasons. That isn't much help.

... and BEFORE AHMAN GREEN, Favre had only three 1,000 yard rushers, meaning 1 every 3 seasons. That isn't much help........ according to some people at least.

 

[JC-PGH-PA]

As a lifelong Pats fan and Dolphins hater, I'm here to say Dan Marino is a far better quarterback than either John Elway or Joe Montana. TD carried Elway and the WCO carried Montana (as it carries Garcia today).Did you see what Manning did to the Bucs this year? Marino did that scores of times throughout his career. He was simply amazing.Favre = Marino in a good football program.

I like how this comment supports Marino since I think he was the best, but I don't think I agree that he was FAR better than Montana, Elway and Favre. The seperation of quality football play and the ability to lead an offense is not that far apart. There is no question these guys are the best of the last 20 years. They are all very close, but my order of preference would be:MarinoMontanaElwayFavreMaybe even put Montana ahead of Marino. If you need a guy who will not make a mistake to lose a game go with Montana. If you need a guy to gunsling it with the quickest release and accuracy go with Marino. I think Favre and Elway fit the Marino mold more than Montana does, but Dan is the best slinger.

 

[PMENFAN]

Favre has never had a pure #1 WR. Favre finds the open man, sometimes on the other team, more than anyone I have seen play. He whips the ball, even at his age, better than Elway, Montana and Unitas.Favre, like Elway, never had a pure RB that could carry the load, thus forcing the QB to make plays.

Yeah, that Sterling Sharpe guy really sucked. Antonio Freeman too. Such a chump. Both were great #1 receivers, and I'll further say that AFTER Sterling was forced to retire, Favre improved greatly as he lost his tunnel vision to Sterling. Favre has had very good receivers most years, and remember he also had Holmgren and that scheme that helped him along. Let's also not forget Chmura, who was #### near as good a tight end as Shannon Sharpe, save for the seam route. Then RB's. Come on Levens was a top back at his peak, and he's had Ahman over the last 2. Of him, Elway and Marino, he's had the best complimentary players.When talking of the "best ever", I discount championships. One player cannot win it all. It is a team, and further, I don't even believe it's the skill players who win it, but the lines, specifically the O-line. Elway and TD played behind one of the great lines in one of the great schemes when they got their titles. All that said, I consider Elway the best ever in general. Winning, losing and stats aside, I consider him the best ever. Yes, he had shortcomings in the pocket. But, in a given situation, I'd plug in Elway, Favre or Marino as the "best". I consider them about equal, and depending upon context, I'd pick one or the other. Favre had that 5 year run where he was great, and I'm thiking one year he threw like 35 TD's and only 4 picks. But, he's had some uglies over the last few. Montana, IMHO, is the most over-rated ever. I consider him very good, but his and the 9ers success was more a result of the Walsh scheme being light years ahead of everybody else. Yes, he was a gamer, and that is his biggest asset. His arm was not the strongest, but maybe the second most accurate ever (Steve Young). HIs decision making was great. But, if you want to see what Elway would have done in the WC, look at Elways last few years w/ Shanny. And, that's 15 years later, when people had figured out how to defend it a little better.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I don't recall John Elway ever giving a game away like Favre just did. Anyone who makes an excuse for Favre is gutless. That was a rookie throw. You don't just whirl and throw the ball up for grabs like that.

 

[smlevin]

I don't recall John Elway ever giving a game away like Favre just did. Anyone who makes an excuse for Favre is gutless. That was a rookie throw. You don't just whirl and throw the ball up for grabs like that.

Wow - Elway used to do that ALL the time, especially in his first few years - he maybe did not do it as much in the playoffs his last 7 years or sdo, and not as much as Favre used to in his early 90s years, but he had his fair share of bad throws over his 15+ year career.

 

[jwvdcw]

I think he is a bit overrated. He makes spectacular plays and is fun to watch, but often absolutely kills his team's chance of winning. Montana, Marino, Elway....sure they wouldn't always win, but there were very few or no games in which you would say that they were the biggest reason that they lost. With Favre, there are a few games(the St Louis playoff game with 6 ints comes to mind) where you can say that Brett Favre was the biggest reason that the Packers lost. Imo, this hinders him from being mentioned in this class. I put Favre in the 2nd tier of all time greats along players like Moon, Cunningham, Tarkenton, and Aikman.Also, I'll echo the sentiment that Marino needs to be mentioned in your post.

 

[jwvdcw]

I think he is a bit overrated. I put Favre in the 2nd tier of all time greats along players like Moon, Cunningham, Tarkenton, and Aikman.

:rotflmao:

Any reason in particular?

yeah...I mentioned several reasons in my post, but 3 time mvp didn't quote all of my reasons for some reason

 

[jwvdcw]

People overestimate just how good Elway was for the first half of his career. In his first 10 seasons he only had a QB ranking higher than 80 once, and that was in a season he only played 12 games. Favre by comarison has only had a qb rating below 85 three times in his career(excluding the "lost year" in ATL) and his durability is undeniable.ElwayTD - 300INT - 226FavreTD - 346INT - 209Favre may have 6 INT games on occasion, but for every 6 INT's he throws he also throws 10 TD's.

good point. I never realized how mediocre Elway was early on. Nevertheless, I stil challenge you to find a game where Montana, Marino, or one of the other 1st tier greats messed up as bad as Favre has in a few very big games

 

[Sinrman]

Stat-wise, it won't be a matter of comparing Favre to Elway in the end. If Favre sticks around, and he likely will for another year or two, it should be Favre vs. Marino.Super Bowl-wise, Elway obviously has the advantage over Favre and Marino. Favre had his chance at another shot at the Super Bowl, but came up short...

 

[jwvdcw]

As a lifelong Dolphan, and a Marino jock sniffer since his rookie year, I can't get sucked too deeply into this debate as I did it way too many times with Denver fans after Elway won the big one in regards to ranking Elway, Marino and Montana. Suffice to say, there is not a single objective criteria, outside of championship rings, that anyone can point to to keep Marino from the top-5, and EVERY SINGLE OTHER objective criteria that would elevate Elway and/or Montana above Marino, keeps that QB below other "champ. winning" QBs. Finally, as pointed out, in regards to both pure victories, winning percentages, 4th Q, comebacks, and 2-minute drill wins, Elway and Marino are WAY AT THE TOP of those lists. Those two guys won more often, and willed their teams to wins more often, than any other QBs in the history of the game.I take my hat off to Montana as the winningest QB of the modern era in terms of championships, and he deserves top-5 mention. Otto Graham won more often than any other QB to ever play the game, so he deserves a spot in the top-5. After that, there is not a single objective criteria, outside of championships won, to clearly distinguish the remaining guys. Which means, in my eyes, Marino comes in #3 behind those guys. Everyone else, get in line behind him however you feel like it.Elway > Favre in ranking, IMO. Favre will likely end with greater stats since Elway was really not much of a QB in the first three quarters of most games, but Elway has way more "it" than Favre - and is the comeback kid - since they equal out in championships at 2 each, edge to the guy with a more proven Winner's history and that's Elway.BTW - Montana was not the master of the 4th Q comeback - that distinction belongs squarely with Elway and Marino. Montana had the magical "it" to win. He won some big comeback CHAMPIONSHIPS - the Catch in the NFC Champ, the S.B. victory over the Bengals - but Marino and Elway are the 4th Q comeback and 2 minute drill kings - they are very close to each other statistically, and WAY out in front of the field.

Agree with absolutely everything here

 

[jwvdcw]

from I also won't talk about the year after year victories of Marino over Joe in the postseason when Joe played for KC).

an overlooked point

 

[jwvdcw]

This is where you guys have lost me. What "list" are we talking about? If it's the top 5 QBs (initial post in this thread), there's no way in hell Marino makes it. Probably number seven.

No way in hell?? Come on, at least you have to admit that its close! Personally, I think he is the best of all time, but thats just MHO

 

[smlevin]

People overestimate just how good Elway was for the first half of his career. In his first 10 seasons he only had a QB ranking higher than 80 once, and that was in a season he only played 12 games. Favre by comarison has only had a qb rating below 85 three times in his career(excluding the "lost year" in ATL) and his durability is undeniable.ElwayTD - 300INT - 226FavreTD - 346INT - 209Favre may have 6 INT games on occasion, but for every 6 INT's he throws he also throws 10 TD's.

good point. I never realized how mediocre Elway was early on. Nevertheless, I stil challenge you to find a game where Montana, Marino, or one of the other 1st tier greats messed up as bad as Favre has in a few very big games

Pick any game under Jimmy Johnson - especially the last two playoff games - Jacksonville in particular.

 

[smlevin]

Super Bowl-wise, Elway obviously has the advantage over Favre and Marino. Favre had his chance at another shot at the Super Bowl, but came up short...

He's still trailing Elway in championship game, and playoff, losses.Elway lost a lot of playoff games over the years. And didn't he lose a couple of Super Bowls, too?Marino lost the Super Bowl his rookie year, and never got back, so he is the unquestioned "loser" in the Super Bowl debate, but Elway and Favre are competitive as playoff winners.

 

[smlevin]

This is where you guys have lost me. What "list" are we talking about? If it's the top 5 QBs (initial post in this thread), there's no way in hell Marino makes it. Probably number seven.

No way in hell?? Come on, at least you have to admit that its close! Personally, I think he is the best of all time, but thats just MHO

I was surprised about that commetn, too - obviously weighting championships very heavily, Marino isn't a "top-5", but as I point out in this thread, it shouldn't be a "top-5" it shoudl be greatest of all time - and Marino clearly deserves to be on that list.

 

[Pick]

Damnation! That throw had to cut some of you guys deep.

 

[Arm Chair Express]

Is this true? If so, I'd like to see the numbers to support that statement.

I think Favre just supported this statement this weekend. I'm not saying he isn't a great QB, I'm saying he get careless when his team is coming from behind. He doesn't take the critism of a guy like Culpepper because he is Brett Favre.

 

[Arm Chair Express]

Stupidest comment in this entire thread - Marino has the most 4th Q comebacks in NFL history. Elway has the most 2 minute drives for victory, Marino is within a few games of that. These two QBs are head and shoulders above everyone else in the number of times they led their teams to comeback victories.Montana has two legendary big game comebacks (NFC Champ and Super Bowl) that bolster his big game ability, and make him the big game "comeback kid". And Staubach, Tarkenton, Foutsm, and a host of others QBs folks have failed to mention in this thread were the unquestioned QB-Kings before Joe and Dan came along. Inflate your heroes, but don't deflate others to do it. Dan Marino was one of the best leaders to ever play the game.If I had 2 minutes left in a game, I'll take Dan or John over Montana any time. If I have two minutes left in the Super Bowl or the Championship game and I need four points, I'll take Joe Montana.

For being such a supid comment you sure agreed with alot to what I said. I may have mistaken Marino's fourth qtr comebacks, but I said with 2 minutes to go and I was refering to the big game. If Marino was such a leader how come their teams always crashed and burned down the stretch?