100 % agreement (esp. if you re-read some of my comments earlier) - Maurile was making comments re: which QBs were best at which things.Joe Montana was the field general extraordinaire in the playoffs esp., but Elway and Marino are all time best in the 2 minute drill and in 4th Q. comebacks victories - and I would hazard to guess they are significantly better in the hurry up. Plus they are 1-2 in victories. Here's the easy way to say this: Dan Marino was the best quarterback BY FAR from opening day to closing day. Joe Montana was king of the postseason.
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Brett Favre v. John Elway (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter cracKer
- Start date
BoltBacker
Footballguy
I couldn't figure out how he left Montana out as the best "on field general" either. If it's at the end of the game I'd want Montana no question. I also couldn't stand Montana when he played.
Look up - Elway and Marino are BY FAR ahead of the pack in 4th Q and 2 minute comebacks. I would take either of them in the regular season to lead my team from behind. Lay the chips on the table in the postseason, and there is no QB I want to guide my team through the postseason more than Joe Montana. (of course, while I won't talk about Marino's first S.B. loss to Joe, I also won't talk about the year after year victories of Marino over Joe in the postseason when Joe played for KC).
Jules Winnfield
Footballguy
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
Better check the videotape -- Elway did dive to go end over end, but it was for a first down and not a TD. He's still one of the all time greats though...
Mario Kart
Footballguy
Mario Kart
Footballguy
also, those years that Sharpe was with Favre were none of Favre's MVP years... hmm, interesting to me.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Favre might not have had Sharpe for that long, but at least he had him at all. Elway never played with a top WR until his last few years when he had Rod Smith and McCaffrey, who were at the peak of their careers. Elway played with stooges at running back and wide receiver for most of his career, yet still won lots of games and got to 3 Super Bowls in the 80's.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Shannon Sharpe has been one of the best receivers in the NFL regardless of who was throwing him the ball. So Sharpe, R.Smith, E.McCaffrey, the Three amgios aren't that big a difference than Sharpe, Freeman, Brooks and Chmura. I'll bet Elway had more "stooges" make the pro-bowl at RB than Favre has played with. This "the broncos were Elway and little else" is such revisionist history.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I believe Terrell Davis is the only pro bowl running back Elway ever had. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. And the receivers Elway had in the 80's were average at best. While Montana had Rice and Marino had Duper and Clayton, Elway had a bunch of scrubs.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
That has nothing to do with how great a QB Elway was. And besides, he told the Colts NOT to draft him as he didn't want to play for their owner. Heaven forbid a player having any kind of say-so in where he works. If you were in Elway's shoes, you would have done the same thing and you are a liar if you say otherwise.That's nothing compared to how "crybaby Elway" entered the league. His refusal to play for the team that drafted him was ridiculous. Daddy took care of it for him though.......How many of these "best ever" quarterbacks that have been mentioned have laid down for a sack?That's when I lost respect for Brett Favre.
Jules Winnfield
Footballguy
Why? What's so interesting about it?
Mario Kart
Footballguy
in Favre's, arguably, greatest years he did not have a pure #1. with all the reasoning being stated in this thread it is interesting that Favre accomplished 3 MVP's without a pure #1.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Robert Brooks was a top receiver and a pure number 1 before injuries derailed his career.
packersfan
Footballguy
What you're forgetting is the entire team around Favre got considerably better in those seasons. The running game improved. The defense (now with Reggie White) improved dramatically. And what Sharpe's retirement forced Favre to do was trust all of his receivers on the field instead of just going to one guy repeatedly -- which he did in the Sharpe years. In many ways, Sharpe's retirement was exactly what Favre needed to become a great QB even if it meant he was deprived of one of the greatest WRs in NFL history.And yes, I believe Sterling Sharpe merits that praise. I think he was every bit the WR Rice was in those days. In fact, when you look at Sharpe and Rice's numbers from 92-94 (when Sharpe had the luxury of what Rice always had -- playing with an above-average QB), they are remarkably similar. Sharpe's were 314-3,854-42 and Rice's were 294-4,203-38. Sharpe was not only a legit No. 1 WR for Favre, he was one of the best in the game and were it not for the neck injury that led to a premature retirement, I don't think there would be any question about his place among the best WRs to ever play the game.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Elway has had S.Sharpe, R.Smith, S.Watson, E.McCaffrey, V.Johnson, M.Jackson, and R.Nattiel.I have no idea where to get pro-bowl rosters from the past but I'm pretty sure Terrell Davis, Bobby Humphries, and Sammy Winder all had multiple 1,000 yard seasons while Elway was the QB in Denver. I even thought Gaston Green had a year where he had a very high ypc and got a 1,000 yards one season. That's at least three and maybe four guys. How many 1,000 yard rushers can you name on the Packers since Favre has been the starter in GB? Green, Levens and ????????? I thought you were comparing the supporting cast of Favre and Elway, I'm not sure how Rice, Duper, or Clayton factor into that comparison at all.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
i never said Sharpe was NOT a legit #1. i was stating that Favre has not had that #1 that other QB's have had FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER. Sharpe was great and i would have loved a Favre/Sharpe connection for the last decade. many people if you ask them believe they could have been much better than Montana/Rice or Young/Rice, yours truly as well. my whole statement is that Favre had Sharpe for 3 years and that was it. a far less amount of time than the other QB's in question that had the luxary of a pure #1 for their career.BOLTBACKER - Edgar Bennett had either 1 or 2 1,000 yard years as well. so, that would be three and only those three rushers had 1,000 yards for Favre. just a heads up.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Well, in Favre's 12 years in Green Bay, he's had seven 1,000 yard rushers (7/12 = 58.3%)2000-2003 (Ahman Green-Four Times)
1997, 1999 (Dorsey Levens-Twice)
1995 (Edgar Bennett-Once)While in Denver, Elways had eight 1,000 yard rusher in 16 years (8/16 = 50.0%)
1995-1998 (Terrell Davis-Four Times)
1991 (Gaston Green-Once)
1989-1990 (Bobby Humphrey-Twice)
1984 (Sammy Winder-Once)Cheers
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Don't give me this Marino crap. In the 80's, Marino had good receivers and Elway had stooges. Marino also had Don Shula, one of the greatest coaches ever, and still only managed to get to 1 Super Bowl, while Elway was getting to 3 of them. Look at Marino's poor effort against New England in the 85-86 AFC title game. Marino was a great QB in the regular season, but when it came to the playoffs, he was nothing special, unlike Elway and Favre. That is why Elway and Favre are 2 of the 4 or 5 greatest QB's ever and Marino isn't.As for Elway and Favre, we could all argue until we are blue in the face, but the bottom line is that both are 2 of the greatest QB's ever and many arguments can be made in the favor of both.
Arm Chair Express
Footballguy
The question to ask here is this. There's 2 minutes left in the game, which QB do you want in the game Elway or Marino? That's why Elway and Montana are above the rest. Marino was a great stat guy but couldn't lead his team anywhere. Yes, Elway couldn't get over the top until TD came along, but he did lead his team to the big game on his shoulders. Farve is a careless gun slinger, he has as many picks for loses as he does TDs for wins in the final 2 minutes. All these guys are the best to ever play the game, but if I was building a team Elway would be the guy I would want leading it.
Arm Chair Express
Footballguy
If thats the case then I guess after its all said and done today's QBs will have all Elways records in a few years.
Eric Stratton
Footballguy
Is this true? If so, I'd like to see the numbers to support that statement.
Arm Chair Express
Footballguy
Can't argue about John's 5 Superbowl appearances either. Must have also been a field general in the playoffs, huh?
Eric Stratton
Footballguy
Here are some numbers from the AP Brett Favre set an NFL record Sunday by throwing a touchdown pass in his 14th consecutive playoff game.Favre was tied with former Dolphins star Dan Marino, who threw TD passes in 13 straight playoff appearances between 1983-95.Favre threw his 31st postseason touchdown pass -- the third-most in NFL history -- on an audible about 4½ minutes before halftime in the Green Bay Packers' first-round NFC playoff game against the Seattle Seahawks.Marino threw 32 TD passes in the playoffs, second only to Joe Montana's 45. Favre also extended his team record to 26 straight games with a touchdown pass, including playoffs. It is the longest current streak in the NFL.
Willy
Footballguy
Favre is my favorite player of all-time. I was lucky enough to be a Packer fan before he came here, and I'll still be a fan when he leaves. I wouldn't trade that to be a Dolphin fan during Marino's career, or a Bronco fan during Elway's career. And I'm sure their fans feel the same way.However, I do agree that any list that doesn't include Marino is flawed. This isn't baseball or basketball where a player can make an impact on both sides of the ball. The Superbowl victory is overrated when rating QBs. Nobody would rather have Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams, Jim Plunkett etc over Marino.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I agree that it is unfair to judge a QB solely on Super Bowls won, but Marino's lack of success(only 1 Super Bowl appearance and several poor performances in the AFC title game) holds him back from being mentioned among the all-time best IMO.
cracKer
Shawn Culcasi
This is where you guys have lost me. What "list" are we talking about? If it's the top 5 QBs (initial post in this thread), there's no way in hell Marino makes it. Probably number seven.Marino a top 10? I'll but that.The three old-timers (Graham, Baugh, Unitas), Montana, Favre, Elway. From there, Marino has the numbers that can't be overlooked in lieu of anyone else.Who else? When would Jim Kelly come in?
Why not - what exactly does Baugh have over Dan Marino except that he did it while the forward pass was emerging?And anyway, it shouldn't be a top-5 list - it should be an "unquestionably the best QBs" list.If you are weighting championship rings over all else, Marino's name doesn't deserve mention above BJohn, Dilfer, etc - and Jim Kelly, forget him, too. Dan Fouts, Tarkenton - tere are a ton of excellent QBs who never won the whole enchilada. Obviously, championships are only a sliver of the criteria pie.Also, whoever tried to argue this crud about Marino doesn't deserve it b/c he had the excellent coah, and great receivers, etc. WHATEVER - Marino MADE those receivers great, and John Elway had excellent receiving talent on his teams - where do you think most of Shannon Sharpe's numbers came from? Yeah, I'm sure that Dan Reeves isn't a good coach - again, WHATEVER.Take away Elways' two S.B. wins, and it isn't even a thought if he ranks higher than Dan Marino. As it stands, I will place winning the glory very high, include Elway on the top lists of QBs because he WAS one of the all-time greats, but please do not try to inflate your hero by tearing down another.If you are going to include championships as a factor in great QBs, Graham and Montana top the list. Period. Montana never saw a Super Bowl he couldn't win - Elway can't say that. Since the list should be "best QBs of all time," as cracker mentioned, it starts with the three old timers, then Montana as the winningest playoff QB in the modern age, then whomever else you want to put in there (Elway, Favre, for example), but you better not leave off Dannie boy who holds all those NFL records. Any discussion of the best QBs of all time that fails to mention Dan Marino, John Elway and Joe Montana is, as someone else put it, flawed - it is like talking about the best hoops players of all time and forgetting to mention Mike Jordan, Larry Bird and Magic Johnson in favor of Moses Malone, Karim Abdul Jabbar, Bill Walton, Doctor J and Shaq as the 5 best of all time.Personally, in my QB rankings, it is Montana at the top, Graham is next to give props to the old days, then Dan Marino, then Unitas, then Elway, then Favre, then Baugh. Having the old guys dominate the list is a bit unfair, IMO, as the QB position means a heck of a lot more now than back then, and the skills required now are remarkably different than those required to master the position in today's game. Even in their prime, those old guys wouldn't make it on a college team, let alone in the NFL.Anyway, enough on that - I can't believe folks still bash Marino in talks of the greatest QBs of all time - the guy who holds all them darned records deserves half a breath when talking about the best QBs of all time. Why talk any stat except championships otherwise?
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Agree. But what happens when Favre starts breaking some of those Marino Records? He'll pass Marino in Playoff TD's possibly in the next game (1 to tie, 2 to pass). If he plays 3 more years he'll most likely break the TD pass record. He'll never have a shot at the Yardage mark but quite a few of the other Marino records have the possibility to fall. Not to mention the Green Bay Packers are a young team and in Favre's opinion, the best offense he's played on.That's why, in my opinion, this entire issue is impossible to determine until Favre retires. Hell, if he pulls a Gannon and plays until post-40's that's another 6 years of stats to pad to his legacy. Would THOSE numbers, when they start surpassing Marino make a difference? Obviously they would.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Elway didn't have Sharpe until the early 90's. By then, he had already made it to 3 Super Bowls with AVERAGE AT BEST receivers.Dan Reeves was and still is a good head coach, but Elway's numbers suffered because of his conservative style. While Marino was in a pass happy offense for practically his entire career, Elway was in a conservative for the first 10 years of his NFL career.And before I forget, any talk of all-time great quarterbacks should include Steve Young. At his best, he was as good as any QB ever. The only reason he didn't win 4 Super Bowls like Montana was because his 49ers didn't have as good a defenses as Montana's did and Young was at his best when the Dallas Cowboys were dominating the NFL in the early 90's.
cracKer
Shawn Culcasi
Honestly, that's the one guy that I was wavering with at #7 with Marino. I plugged in Marino because I didn't wan't to start a holy war
I loved watching Steve Young play. The greatest combo QB that we've seen, he's probably right there with Favre at 1-2 as my favorite. With only about nine full seasons as a starter, he wasn't allowed the opportunity to build up his stats (#19 passing yardage, #17 passing TDs), but there weren't many years better than his '94 season: 3969 passing yards, 35 TDs, 297-7 rushing (pretty much equal to Culpepper's '00 season)Warren Moon - excellent - but lest we forget, the USFL was a wide open league, with a style of play that was not similar to the NFL, and NFL defenses did not exist there. Moon in the Run n' shoot was a thing of beauty.Good point on Steve Young - excellent pick for an all-time great QB. Didn't he have statistically the best year a QB ever had in '94 or something like that - including a Super Bowl victory?Stay tuned for my next thread...
Dan Marino v. Warren Moon
What if Moon had played his entire career in the NFL?
On Favre breaking Dan numbers - I do not believe he will - he has to go 20+ TDs per year for four years (or 25 or so for three in a row) before he breaks the 420 mark.
He will pass Dan on playoff TD passes (though he's got a ways to go to get to Montana). Most of the other records (including victories, 4th Q Comebacks, 2 minute drills, completions, attempts, yardage) are all really far off. I love Favre, but I'd be surprised if he is able to pass Dan in more than the playoff TD mark. And, I agree - active players need to be judged retrospectively, and Favre still has 1-3 years ahead of him before he calls it a career.
Perfect Tommy
Footballguy
I'll tell you what raises Favre to the greatest QB in the modern era. There has never been a better leader than him. Elway was very good, but not like Favre. Marino was way below the others. He would yell at his teammates all the time. The universal admiration Favre inspires from all those around him is unsurpassed. And there has never been a tougher QB. Ever. One thing many people overlook about Favre's INTs - Many have come on 3rd down when Favre threw the ball up for grabs deep knowing that an interecption deep was as good as a punt. I haven't seen other QBs use this strategy and it is an excellent strategy. Also, Favre gambles when his team is way behind leading to a lot of picks. When the Packers are down three TDs in the 4th quarter he doesn't want to drive for a TD as time runs out. He wants all three TDs and he will risk interceptions towards that unlikely goal. Favre has never let his team down by missing a start, unlike all the other QBs. And Favre is the only player in NFL history who could win games singlehandedly by sheer willpower. Three MVPs. When Montana got hurt and Young or Grbac came into the game, how did the 49ers do? As far as Elway is concerned, it was clear in his final two seasons that his skills had diminished. He still played very well, but not like when he was younger. Those SBs belonged more to the DEN running game than to Elway. In GB's superbowl year, Favre was the league MVP. Even this season, wheile people were calling him washed up, Favre was still able to lead the league in TD passes. I think in the next few years as Favre continues to add to his legend, most analysts will come around and recognize Brett Favre as the greatest QB in NFL history.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
a strategy i thought more teams should use. a WR with single... even double coverage has a better chance of getting a reception than throwing a pass where a possible 4 or 5 defenders have a chance at it. a technique that i think more teams should try to exploit.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
That is true to an extent, but Elway was still a key factor. In fact, if you look at the games the Broncos lost those 2 seasons they won the Super Bowl, Elway was the one who struggled in those games, not the running game(except for maybe the loss to Miami late in 98 where Elway and the running game struggled). And Elway was the MVP of the Super Bowl win over Atlanta, so clearly he was still a major factor. It is not like he was some run-of-the-mill QB who just handed it off to Terrell Davis.
bueno
In a class by himself
The league has changed so much that talk of best ever or top 5 lists are pretty meaningless.I guess we could say that Jim Brown was the best fullback ever, but that statement only goes to show how much the league has changed! Where do you rate Starr, Staubach, Namath, Tarkenton, etc? If league championships is your yardstick, look at Starr's numbers....
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Please tell me you didn't put the overrated Joe Namath in the same sentence with Starr or Staubach. Namath's big mouth and 1 Super Bowl doesn't make him one of the greatest QB's ever. It doesn't even make him one of the best 25. Namath can thank playing in New York and the media for his legacy.
I hate this argument when comparing individuals. Teams win Championships, not individuals. Of Baseball, Football, Hockey and Basketball the only real good game for comparing stats is Baseball. In Baseball you stand at the plate on your own. No one blocks for you or feeds you a pass.
Favre's INTs are widely overrated. The truth is, his interception ratio is not bad at all.Marino's td to int ratio.... 1.66Favre's td to int ratio.... 1.65by far worse is Elway.... 1.32So please consider the FACTS before anyone tries to give favre crap about int's.
Over the past 3 years Favre has averaged just over 30 TD's per season. 321 completions. 511 attempts. and 3646 passing yards.Favre is behind Marino by 74td's (2.5 seasons), 1007 completions (just barely over 3 seasons), 1893 attempts (3.7 seasons), 15, 715 yards (just over 4 seasons) and already leads marino in completion percentage.He also could equal Marino's pro-bowl appearances in 2 seasons.It's not inconceivable that favre will play another 3-4 seasons. He's only 34 and just turned 34 in the middle of this season. That would put him at the same age that Marino retired (38) and pretty easily he'd get all but the yardage mark. Especially with the crop of receivers that have sprung up in Green bay... FINALLY.That is why I think this whole debate is moot until Favre retires and we find out just what his final numbers are like.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
But isn't the QBs job to lead his team to victory? Regardless of the stats? That was my point, and I still think that is the most important criteria in judging QBs. Not necessarily SB wins, but overall victories in the playoffs and in big games. Favre is 1-1 in SBs and Elway is 2-3. So Elway led his team to 3 more SB appearances than Favre. To me, that is a deciding point in the argument.
BigTuna
Footballguy
This argument could go on forever.. They were both so good in their prime that they could take over a game single handedly. I think I'd have to give them a tie.. if I was forced to choose,, I'd probably take Elway in his prime.. Afterall, he is the comeback kid. He beat my seahawks like his ******* redheaded step child for his entire career.. I was happy to see him retire.. I'm sure the folks in NFC north won't be sheding too many tears when Favre retires either..
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I should like to point out that Elway didn't get to throw a lot of short TD passes like Favre has his whole career. With Reeves as the head coach, Denver ran a lot of short touchdowns in and then with Terrell Davis as well. Meanwhile, Favre has always played in an offense that throws a lot near the goalline. All I am saying is that think of how many more touchdowns Elway might have thrown if he would have had that luxury his entire career. His TD to INT ratio then would be much better.
So Bradshaw and Montana are better than Favre and Elway? Harris, Greene, Blount, Ham, Lambert, Webster, Swann, Stalworth, Greenwood... didn't have anything to do with the Steelers 4 Championships? Rice, Clark, Lott... didn't lift a finger to help Montana... I'm being sarcastic, but my point is that QB's do not do it on their own. How would Archie Manning rank based on your accessment of QB talent? What if Elway went to the Colts and Favre stayed with Atlanta? I doubt each QB takes their teams to as many Superbowls. Stats do not tell the whole story in football. There is no stat for how well the battle goes in the trenches. There is no stat for how much pocket time a QB gets. Your argument should compare the Broncos to the Packers, not Elway to Favre. Looking just at the QB performance I think Marino was the best I ever saw. His 1984 season was jus unbelievable. Quick, who was his RB that year? I don't even remember, but I do remember how quick his release was. In the 1984 AFC Championship game vs the Steelers he was unstoppable. The Steelers rush would get in there so fast (remember Mike Meriweather?) and you would think Dan was just throwing the ball away, but there was either Clayton or Duper... Everyone knew the Dolphins were going to beat you with the pass, but you still couldn't stop them.
Stupidest comment in this entire thread - Marino has the most 4th Q comebacks in NFL history. Elway has the most 2 minute drives for victory, Marino is within a few games of that. These two QBs are head and shoulders above everyone else in the number of times they led their teams to comeback victories.Montana has two legendary big game comebacks (NFC Champ and Super Bowl) that bolster his big game ability, and make him the big game "comeback kid". And Staubach, Tarkenton, Foutsm, and a host of others QBs folks have failed to mention in this thread were the unquestioned QB-Kings before Joe and Dan came along. Inflate your heroes, but don't deflate others to do it. Dan Marino was one of the best leaders to ever play the game.If I had 2 minutes left in a game, I'll take Dan or John over Montana any time. If I have two minutes left in the Super Bowl or the Championship game and I need four points, I'll take Joe Montana.
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