Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
Browns Mike Holmgren Out, Joe Banner in--Effective Immediately (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ConnSKINS26
- Start date
As I recall, Banner was a disaster with the Eagles. But maybe my recollection ain't what it used to be.Good? Bad?
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Good news.
Not that I have anything against Holmgren but he filled a very valuable role as a bridge.
I am not high on Banner but the good news is that Banner's role is as el-Presidente rather than GM.
Holmgren's best move by far was hiring Tom Heckertt as the Brown's GM.
I was afraid that Haslam would plug Banner into the GM role but Heckertt has done a sensational job IMHO.
First year, CB Joe Haden and SS TJ Ward instantly upgraded the secondary and Holmgren removed Mangini at the end of that year which meant changes on both sides of the ball with the new coaches. Also he got some starts out of QB Colt McCoy but that was more of a Holmgren pick from all reports so I don't hold that one for or against him. RB Moneterio Hardesty just got some work and looked ok so he also has had some production.
Second year, the team went into completely different directions so instead of the boring field managing-offense of Mangini we went to a WCO so that meant sweeping changes on offense. On defense an even more dramatic change from the 3-4 to the 4-3 so that meant Heckett had to find starting caliber D-Linemen and that is what he did with his first two picks, DT Phil Taylor (lead all rookie D-Linemen in the NFL in tackles) and DE Jabaal Sheard (second for all rookie DE's for sacks 8.5). He also got WR Greg Little who came in second to all rookie WRs with catches (61). All of the other picks have made the team and contributed in one way or another, TE Jordan Cameron, CB Buster Skrine, FS Eric Haag, OG Jason Pinkston, FB Owen Marecic.
This year is only six games old but the rookie class from Heckertt looks very good so-far. RB Trent Richardson looks as advertised, QB Brandon Weeden looks better than I would have imagined, ORT Mitchell Schwartz is coming on strong and looking very good. All of those top-three picks have started from game-one and have picked it up after struggling in the first game. Supplemental draft pick WR Josh Gordon is coming on very strong and looks like he could turn into a legitmate #1 WR which would put the team at least a year ahead of schedule on offense and be a huge feather in the cap of Heckertt. Every other rookie has made the team and both of the rookie DTs are starting right now due to injuries, DT John Hughes and DT Billy Wynn. Wynn looks like a steal taken in the sixth round. All of the other rookies either made the team or the practice squad and rookie LB James-Michael-Johnson could take over as a starter for Scott Fujita so this might be a bumper-crop draft for Heckertt.
I cannot see any reason or any way for Haslam to consider replacing Heckertt. He looks like one of the best young GM's in the NFL right now.
Holmgren has filled his role and passed the baton so the new owner has a buffer but the new owner is sure to be better than Randy Lerner and I can live with Banner as CEO/President so long as he keeps out of Heckertt's hair and gives him free-reign to continue his fine work so I'm not too concerned with Holmgren riding off into the sunset.
Not that I have anything against Holmgren but he filled a very valuable role as a bridge.
I am not high on Banner but the good news is that Banner's role is as el-Presidente rather than GM.
Holmgren's best move by far was hiring Tom Heckertt as the Brown's GM.
I was afraid that Haslam would plug Banner into the GM role but Heckertt has done a sensational job IMHO.
First year, CB Joe Haden and SS TJ Ward instantly upgraded the secondary and Holmgren removed Mangini at the end of that year which meant changes on both sides of the ball with the new coaches. Also he got some starts out of QB Colt McCoy but that was more of a Holmgren pick from all reports so I don't hold that one for or against him. RB Moneterio Hardesty just got some work and looked ok so he also has had some production.
Second year, the team went into completely different directions so instead of the boring field managing-offense of Mangini we went to a WCO so that meant sweeping changes on offense. On defense an even more dramatic change from the 3-4 to the 4-3 so that meant Heckett had to find starting caliber D-Linemen and that is what he did with his first two picks, DT Phil Taylor (lead all rookie D-Linemen in the NFL in tackles) and DE Jabaal Sheard (second for all rookie DE's for sacks 8.5). He also got WR Greg Little who came in second to all rookie WRs with catches (61). All of the other picks have made the team and contributed in one way or another, TE Jordan Cameron, CB Buster Skrine, FS Eric Haag, OG Jason Pinkston, FB Owen Marecic.
This year is only six games old but the rookie class from Heckertt looks very good so-far. RB Trent Richardson looks as advertised, QB Brandon Weeden looks better than I would have imagined, ORT Mitchell Schwartz is coming on strong and looking very good. All of those top-three picks have started from game-one and have picked it up after struggling in the first game. Supplemental draft pick WR Josh Gordon is coming on very strong and looks like he could turn into a legitmate #1 WR which would put the team at least a year ahead of schedule on offense and be a huge feather in the cap of Heckertt. Every other rookie has made the team and both of the rookie DTs are starting right now due to injuries, DT John Hughes and DT Billy Wynn. Wynn looks like a steal taken in the sixth round. All of the other rookies either made the team or the practice squad and rookie LB James-Michael-Johnson could take over as a starter for Scott Fujita so this might be a bumper-crop draft for Heckertt.
I cannot see any reason or any way for Haslam to consider replacing Heckertt. He looks like one of the best young GM's in the NFL right now.
Holmgren has filled his role and passed the baton so the new owner has a buffer but the new owner is sure to be better than Randy Lerner and I can live with Banner as CEO/President so long as he keeps out of Heckertt's hair and gives him free-reign to continue his fine work so I'm not too concerned with Holmgren riding off into the sunset.
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
they just replaced an owner who didn't care about football and demanded no accountability with a guy who has done more in his first hour than the last guy did in 10 years.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
The primary role that Holmgren filled was to act as defacto-absentee-owner for Randy Lerner who shunned the spotlight and even had Holmgren attend owner meetings instead of going himself.
Breaking news, the new owner apparently will begin to attend owners meetings and participate but since this current meeting's topic will be about the new owner he feels it would be better if the other owners have space to openly discuss the ownership change to him. Pretty wise move and probably earned him some respect with the other owners.
My link
Breaking news, the new owner apparently will begin to attend owners meetings and participate but since this current meeting's topic will be about the new owner he feels it would be better if the other owners have space to openly discuss the ownership change to him. Pretty wise move and probably earned him some respect with the other owners.
My link
NJDawgPound
Footballguy
I like Mike personally, sorry he couldn't see this thing through.
I am bullish on Banner. Eagles have done well under his watch.
I am bullish on Banner. Eagles have done well under his watch.
Please See Mine
Footballguy
WTH are you talking about?As I recall, Banner was a disaster with the Eagles. But maybe my recollection ain't what it used to be.Good? Bad?
Please See Mine
Footballguy
What is going on in Cleveland, anyway? They are trying to replicate the entire Eagles franchise. Reid in at HC and keep Shurmur as OC?
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Trent owners better hope Reid doesn't end up in CLE.
Please See Mine
Footballguy
True. Westbrook and McCoy have had terrible careers.
Please See Mine
Footballguy
Banner is not a football guy. He is purely a money man. Great cap manager, but I doubt he will have much input on the talent or the first pick. That will be Heckert.For those who don't know, Banner was in Eagles management for like 15 years (when his long-time friend Jeffrey Lurie bought the team). He managed the hell out of the cap, but there was a perception that he would ultimately put the money ahead of winning when push came to shove. Banner left at the beginning of this year, which came as a bit of a surprise to some people, as Banner, Lurie and Reid had always been seen as completely tied together. Some took it as a sign that Banner and Reid had a power struggle and Reid won out. Others thought that Banner maybe saw the beginning of the end and wanted to get out without a stain.
B-Deep
Footballguy
Will HEckert stay? And...Was the Wheedon pick more him or holgrem?
Please See Mine
Footballguy
Heckert was part of the Eagles regime for several years and was well-regarded within the organization, so it would surprise me if they got rid of him.edit: If I remember right, a couple years before Heckert left for the Browns, he was getting a lot of sniffs for GM jobs and the Eagles gave him a decent raise and a higher title to keep him, even though Reid was still the final say. Heckert mainly wanted to leave in order to be the one in control.
Last edited by a moderator:
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Axing Holmgren with 24 hours notice. That's harsh.
RevDawg
Footballguy
24 hours notice? Everyone who's paying attention has known this since August.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Still, the president of just about any organization is given a little more than "you have 24 hours to get your crap out of my building."
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
You must not be a McCoy owner.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Not true.Holmgren has till the end of the season and its been reported from numerous sources,just two of many reporting Holmgren stays till the end of the year.
CANTON REPOSITORY>>
My link
... Holmgren, who will stay on as president through the end of the season.
OHIO.COM
My link
... New Browns owner Jimmy Haslam said Joe Banner will become CEO of the organization and President Mike Holmgren will leave the franchise and retire at the end of this season.
Please See Mine
Footballguy
Those 20 TD's last year must have been tough.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Conflicting reports then:
But part of that same article was that he would be there till the end of the year. That makes more sense.
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
He's going to get paid and help bring Banner up to speed.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Like I said. Obviously not a McCoy owner. He's never been utilized properly.You're a bit of a ##### then, huh?
Billy Bats
Footballguy
One thing is certain, Banner is going to make Jimmy boatloads. 
GreatLakesMike
Footballguy
I only ask one thing of the Haslam regime, please keep Heckert on as GM.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
http://www.foxsportsohio.com/10/16/12/Sources-Browns-GM-thinks-he-is-next-to-g/landing_browns.html?blockID=805611&feedID=3689New coach for next year sure to follow.Good luck Browns fans, new ownership can make a world of difference.
GreatLakesMike
Footballguy
I never trust the media, but it would be a mistake to let Heckert go IMO. He cleaned house, as he should have. People (Browns fans) need to be patient. There's some nice talent on the roster; they're just not old enough to drink yet.
Please See Mine
Footballguy
Would it be better if the Eagles ran more? Sure. But Shady has had an excellent career thus far, as did Westbrook. I don't know, though, I only watched every single game of their careers. I just think #####ing about the production of one of the top 3 backs in FF is silly.
Please See Mine
Footballguy
But this thread should back on track with capologist extraodinaire looking to make the Browns the Gold Standard of the NFL.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
That's just how it is. There's an example for every single top back, and their owners will always feel that way. I didn't say it was right, or justified even. I said that if you're an owner, you know the missed opportunities you witness week-in, and week-out. And the same would happen with Trent if Reid came to town, guaranteed. He'd still be top-5. But owners would ##### about his usage. That's all I said. Rice. Not enough touches. Not the focal point often enough when it seems obvious he should be.McCoy. Not enough touches. Ditto above.
Foster. Tate steals the glory sometimes. Not a big deal because of the monstrous workload he has, but owners get antsy when they see Tate pop in around the opposing team's 40 and bust a big play. Luckily, Foster almost always gets back in for the redzone work.
Peterson. Not a 3rd down back, and has never gotten much of a chance. Harvin stealing some redzone looks now. Again, not a big deal, but lots of missed opportunities in the eyes of his owners.
Charles. Workload (until now).
Spiller. Workload.
DMC. Not enough targets in the passing game. Crappy scheme, etc.
Again, its not all justified whining. But its there, and all I said was that Trent owners better hope he doesn't end up with Reid as his HC, because anyone hoping to see that Browns offense operate through him...would end up disappointed. Not sure how you can argue that, because ever back in the league experiences tons of missed opportunities every week, if you listen to their owners.
Dinkle Heimer
Footballguy
He was hired as a bridge? As a Seattle fan I'd think even the most diehard Cleveland fan would recognize this as an blantant disappointment.
Previous Q, Holmgren had to be involved in the QB choices. It's just his passion...no way he wasn't.
Everyone here is calling Banner a cap wizard and it seems logical to instill a good money guy on your staff asap. I just don't know if there wasn't a way to keep Holmgren and Banner.
I'm not a Holmgren fan, but I do see why people like the guy.
IIRC Andy Reid worked under Holmgren at one time as did Heckert. I'm not certain, but if so an Eagle association existed before.
Personally, I am always impressed with the Steelers. The new owner had to sell his shares of Steeler ownership to do this. If I were a Pittsburgh fan, I'd have one eye on the Browns now. He's already thrown around more than a billion dollars. Will he throw money at some Steelers staff next? I don't know if he was ever at the practices or staff meetings or anything and it'd be useful to know how he was involved when he was with the Steelers.
I don't often feel like the Browns improve. I am generally thinking they replaced one good apple with another and didn't get any better.
Richardson looks like they can finally stop spending picks on RBs, but don't forget they have Hardesty and had Hillis.
I was fine with McCoy. I liked his fire his rookie year, looked like he did in college just played for a bad team. Year two didn't look so good. Weeden...OK and now McCoy is career backup? Alright fine if that's the plan then stop drafting QBs.
WR...they seem to draft (and start) an impressive pass dropper every year. I'd swear they haven't improved at WR in like 10 years. Even when Mass looked like he finally "got it" earlier this year, he quickly ripped his hammy and has been out ever since.
On the OL they often have a new rotation of linemen that allow DL to sack their QB. They could pay people on these boards to do that.
Soooo many positions are the same, there's no progress.
Steelers and Eagles (whatever influence Banner or Aslam's previous franchise...) are very concerned with the quality of their line play. That same concern in and of itself would improve the Browns.
These fans lost their franchise and still loved them like a phantom team that didn't exist, got their team back and....God Bless them. They are possibly the most loyal fans in all of sports. How they loved the Browns even when they didn't exist was incredible. It would be the coolest gesture ever for the new owner to give the Dawg pound something.
Everyone here is calling Banner a cap wizard and it seems logical to instill a good money guy on your staff asap. I just don't know if there wasn't a way to keep Holmgren and Banner.
I'm not a Holmgren fan, but I do see why people like the guy.
IIRC Andy Reid worked under Holmgren at one time as did Heckert. I'm not certain, but if so an Eagle association existed before.
Personally, I am always impressed with the Steelers. The new owner had to sell his shares of Steeler ownership to do this. If I were a Pittsburgh fan, I'd have one eye on the Browns now. He's already thrown around more than a billion dollars. Will he throw money at some Steelers staff next? I don't know if he was ever at the practices or staff meetings or anything and it'd be useful to know how he was involved when he was with the Steelers.
I don't often feel like the Browns improve. I am generally thinking they replaced one good apple with another and didn't get any better.
Richardson looks like they can finally stop spending picks on RBs, but don't forget they have Hardesty and had Hillis.
I was fine with McCoy. I liked his fire his rookie year, looked like he did in college just played for a bad team. Year two didn't look so good. Weeden...OK and now McCoy is career backup? Alright fine if that's the plan then stop drafting QBs.
WR...they seem to draft (and start) an impressive pass dropper every year. I'd swear they haven't improved at WR in like 10 years. Even when Mass looked like he finally "got it" earlier this year, he quickly ripped his hammy and has been out ever since.
On the OL they often have a new rotation of linemen that allow DL to sack their QB. They could pay people on these boards to do that.
Soooo many positions are the same, there's no progress.
Steelers and Eagles (whatever influence Banner or Aslam's previous franchise...) are very concerned with the quality of their line play. That same concern in and of itself would improve the Browns.
These fans lost their franchise and still loved them like a phantom team that didn't exist, got their team back and....God Bless them. They are possibly the most loyal fans in all of sports. How they loved the Browns even when they didn't exist was incredible. It would be the coolest gesture ever for the new owner to give the Dawg pound something.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
100% cut. Joe Banner doesn't like players over 30.
Warpig
Footballguy
gandalas
Footballguy
Personally, I would hope that we go the Rams Route and take a BUNCH of picks from a team that is enamored with a QB at the top. Even if Weedon is not the long-term answer, I think he has shown enough to go another direction next year. Imagine what he could do with a Keenan Allen or Justin Hunter out there?If we have a team who is willing to give us 3+ high picks for that #1, then I don't see how we cannot take it.EDIT: I really wish we had not won that game this week, though. That seems to be the Browns M/O...win a pointless 4-6 games a year, just enough to not get a top pick.
Last edited by a moderator:
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
even if they are on a rookie contract and meeting/exceeding expectations?
Please See Mine
Footballguy
He's joking. The Eagles are notorious for never wanting to give new contracts to older players, preferring to lose a guy a little too early than to pay for him when he's done.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Holmgren came in during the tail end of the season where Mangini got off to a 1-11 start. Holmgren over sixty at that time, said he wanted to turn around before he left. It seemed a forgone conclusion Mangini would be gone but Eric won his final four games si Holmgren went with Mangini another year. Mangini accomplished that fete after both starting QBs, Derick Anderson-Brady Quinn, YUCK, went down with injuries that made Holmgren go against his instincts since the return of the team no coach had ever had 4 game winning streak so most fans were ok with that decision at the time (but you can bet dollars to donuts that some schumuck will thump his chest and say HE KNEW MANGINI was terrible blah blah blah, yeah ok suuuuuuuuure, anyway.That offseason Holmgren scrapped both of those QBs and signed Jake Delhomme and pushed to draft Colt McCoy but he left the rest of team/personnel ect to Mangini's needs being filled by Heckertt. Heckertt found both Joe Haden and TJ Ward with his top-two picks in that draft but demured to Holmgren when McCoy fell to the third round but that first year both Holmgren and Heckert were filling team needs according to Mangini.Holmgren is a WCO and big-time QB guy and instead of prioritizing the QB he thought Mangini could win with a clock control-field managing head coach like Mangini and with a second-tier QB but that mix didn't work. The offense sucked, the team lost, Mangini was fired. Holmgren hired Shurmur who never was a HC before, he would be learning on the job, etc. I didn't like that decision but I don't know who else was available that would take the job considering the state of the team. When Mangini took over he basically brow-beat our former owner to hire his own GM and Mangini fired him before the season was a moth old. It was Mangini who was responsible for gutting the team and it was he acting as GM that brought in old Jet veterans and threw everybody under the bus that didn't fall in line with his Napoleanic dictates. No QB, no WRs, no playmakers at all, nothing. Here is the draft when Eric Mangini had FULL CONTROL of both the HC and GM duties. First pick Mangini held the fifth pick but instead he traded down numerous time to the 21st slot, passing over every player taken from 5 to 21 including the son of former Browns ALL-PRO linebacker Clay Mathews and a pass rushing LBer was a high priority and many fans wanted Clay Mathews, but mangini kept trading down till he took center Alex Mack with the 21st pick. Very good player but the team got virtually NOTHING in return for trading down from the fifth pick. Also only three centers had been drafted in the first round in the previous decade and the Browns got no keepers from four trade downs in that draft, nothing. Here are the other players Mangini got from that draft: 2nd round WR Brian Robiskie (epically bad decision especially since he could have traded this pick to Denver and gotten Denver's first round pick the following season), 2n round WR Mohammed Massoquoi (Has done very little and can't keep healthy), 2nd round LB David Veikune (so bad he was cut before the next season), 4th round LB Kaluka Maiava (back-up and only starting this year due to injuries but he's splitting time), 6th round DB Don Carey (cut never did anything), 6th round DB Coye Francies (lost him that year when they tried to sneak him off the practice squad so he blew this pick entirely and cried foul, exceptionally bad since he didn't know the rules), 6th round RB James Davis (never did anything but flashed in preseason).Bottom line. Mangini gutted the team and blew an entire draft where the only player worth keeping was a center that he took in the first round after trading down four times when he originally held the fifth pick. No QB (the most important position on the team but he eshchewed that position and went CENTER), no playmakers (he did draft two WRs but they were Brian Robiskie and Mohammed Massaquoi when WR Mike Wallace was selected by Pittsburgh in the next round), no defensive linemen, one scrub LBers, one career backup LB, two scrub DBs, a scrub RB.Holmgren gets hired he kicks Mangini out of the personnel department and hires Heckertt. That one decision alone is worth Holmgren's salary. Also Holmgren fired Mangini as HC after that year, another good move but I wasn't sold on Shurmur but the supporting coaching staff is very strong with former NFL HCs on both sides of the ball so on the whole I like the coaching staff and love the personnel department and what they have done.Holmgen isn't a blatant disspointment. He came in and knew he wasn't going to stick around for ten or twenty years. He was over sixty years old. He wanted to build a foundation and considering what was in Cleveland before he took over, he filled his role as a bridge to Banner and I would imagine Banner will give Shurmur the remainder of this year but Heckertt has already proven himself. The club has always had a PR issue but that was all on the previous owner Randy Lerner but Holmgren took the heat. When Holmgren took control the club had no QB, it now has Brandon Weeden and he's producing as he learns.The club had a RB James Harrison but he got injured and never did anything other than flash in the final four games. The club has Trent Richardson, light years better.The club had nothing at WR, it has Josh Gordon who is producing and getting better.The club only had Joe Thomas and Alex Mack, now it also had added Mitchell Schwartz to 'stack the edges' and layerd in other YOUNG players.The club only had Ahtyba Rubin on the D-line, they added DT Phil Taylor, DE Jabaal Sheard, and this year they added two young D-Linemen who look good, DT John Hughes, DT/DE Billy Wynn.The club only had D'Qwell Jackson, they've added some young LBers who hold promise, James-Michael-Johnson, Craig Robertson, LJ Fort.You say he was a blatant failure, wrong, wrong, wrong.The Browns have made huge strides in adding young talent and they are going thru growing pains but the club is improved and a foundation has been laid and Holmgren rides off into the sunset. The club hasn't won so people who haven't got a clue will say he was a failure but he is responsible for hiring Heckertt and building up the personnel department which has done a great job.
Jerome Harrison was a 3rd string RB behind Jamal Lewis. He didn't deserve to be a starter. The year before Cribbs had almost as many carries as him. Jason Wright was clearly a backup too. This was not a good time for the Browns RBs. Jamal Lewis was quite productive for them just a short time before and that was behind a meh OL.Four? weeks ago Mass and Wheeden were so in-sync and this summer people were lovin Greg Little here. I see you jumped to Gordon quickly. This needs to stop. WR can be a painful position to watch a young guy develop, but it has to happen. Post above has them drafting another WR or two. It's gotta stop. Pick a young guy ya like and let him grow.
They did the same at QB. They had Gradkowski, Frye at one point, IIRC Derek Anderson even played well for them, Brady Quinn, I liked Ken Dorsey in college even if people found plenty of flaws by draft day....Wheeden and McCoy are very similar to the past. They need to stick with someone. Who cares if Wheeden is not Heckert's boy if he is doing well as a rookie? McCoy had heart as a rook. If he's got that still, he could be a fine relief pitcher
I don't mind old players added to young teams either. There's no question of the future and it provides a remedy for now. In some cases, the Browns would be better served signing an old guy and letting a young guy grow and develop chemistry. This parade of young talent just never stops in Cleveland.
Guys like Robiskie were a bust. So what. Cut him. They waited too long on some busts like a lot of teams are guilty of.
IIRC This is the team that signed ridiculously fast Tim Carter from the Giants. He didn't do squat. That's no big deal either, so what.
However if they are always trying out another young guy, when does the good young guy get his experience and develop a repoire with the QB?
A quality veteran team can try a different 4th or 5th WR every year if they want. It won't mess with the top 3 and maybe they find a diamond in the rough. Sometimes this is how cleveland drafts, as if they are all set at a position and oh let's add another. They need to sign an old veteran then instead or backup LB or FB or ...someone that won't mess up the building process but maybe provide depth or ST help.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
I have no idea what you were drinking at 3 o'clock in the morning or the point of your post. My take is Holmgren inherited a lousy team and he hired a solid GM who has been successful in imporoving the talent on the team.Draftees making All-Rookie teams in 2 years under Heckert:'Bri said:
4 -
Phil Taylor
Jabaal Sheard
Joe Haden
TJ Ward
Draftees making the NFL All-Rookie team the previous decade for the Browns:
4 -
Wiliam Green - 2002
Andra Davis - (as kr/pr) 2002
Joe Thomas - 2007
Alex Mack - 2009
And this year's class of rookies also looks very good and will likely add to Heckertt's solid drafting history.
Young and talented is better than old without talent and upside AFIC. I honestly have no idea what you went on about but my point is concise and that is Holmgren has improved the team and built a base that is far better than what we had when he was hired.
Similar threads
