Buy low, sell high, buy high, sell low (1 Viewer)

[Tanner9919]

Love the topic, OP..

Thoughts on Ray Rice going forward?seems like he has seen a somewhat stady decline in production, he's no longer the center of the Ravens' offense, they

Spread the ball around a lot more now..

 

[Franknbeans]

Love the topic, OP..Thoughts on Ray Rice going forward?seems like he has seen a somewhat stady decline in production, he's no longer the center of the Ravens' offense, they Spread the ball around a lot more now..

He's still the straw that stirs the drink and if Cam Cameron was smart he'd feed him the rock and take it out of Sucko's hands.

 

[steveski]

Love the topic, OP..Thoughts on Ray Rice going forward?seems like he has seen a somewhat stady decline in production, he's no longer the center of the Ravens' offense, they Spread the ball around a lot more now..

Im trying to package Martin and a TE for the Rice owner that is weak at TE.

 

[Dork Matter]

I'm wondering about Charles after last week, HE had a good week 1 and then could not get anything going. Just offered Morris and Flacco for Charles and Peyton in a start 2QB league. Anyone else looking to buy low on Charles or is the situation too messy in KC? Who are the best RB targets right now? I want to move Morris but not sure who I should be targetting.Think Morris could get Mathews from a losing owner?

Just got Forte for Morris.

After getting Morris off the waiver wire post-Week 1, I flipped him straight-up for Mathews. That owner was 0-1 with a set of RBs that looked much, much worse after week 1 than it had post-draft. I had offered the person Kevin Smith for Mathews (rejected) before succeeding with the waiver claim.After the Week 2 performance and with Mathews' return imminent, I think the window may have closed. The kind of Morris and Mathews performances that would make the deal attractive for the Mathews owner after Week 3 would probably make you steer away from the deal too.

That's beyond brutal. What owner in their right mind would spend an early pick on Mathews knowing he was going to miss the first week or two, then sell short after one week?

I can envision plenty of scenarios. The most likely of possibilities is exactly what he described - his draft looks great before the games start. After week 1, the team suddenly looks like crap and you realize you may have missed on more than you could afford. In a tough league you can't afford to fall 0-2. Morris looks to be the weekly starter for a quality team and should be a solid source of points.

That owner had Mathews, Lynch, Turner, Best, and Thomas. I imagine that the plan to ride out Mathews' absence looked really bad. Meachem at WR3 and Finley at TE also sucked for that team week 1, and I think there was a brutal roster re-think. There were rumblings at the time that Mathews could be out until week four or later, and I was better placed at 1-0 to wait him out. I think the urgency also gets heightened in leagues, like this one, that have just 13-week in the regular season, and three weeks of playoffs.I would say, though, to keep making offers. My experience in redraft leagues is that most owners are unwilling to give up on a roster in the first few weeks, hoping the ship will right itself. So I wasn't really expecting much response when I tried shopping Kevin Smith after his week one performance, and wasn't surprised that my offer of Smith for Mathews was rejected. But it let that owner know I wanted Mathews, and Morris turned out to be a big enough prize to make the deal.I absolutely never would have traded Mathews for Morris. But in past years, I've been too focused on my own evaluations of players, and paid too little attention to how players are viewed by others. I had the #2 waiver priority in this case, and in past years, I would have looked at Morris' low YPC, running style and competition, and decided I didn't think he would improved my team enough to be worth burning the waiver priority. But this year I promised myself at the start that I would pay more attention to hype in trying to gain an advantage. All the Morris hype made me confident that someone else would overvalue him more than me, and good grief, I was right.And I could turn out to have been completely wrong on Morris. Some of that low YPC came from running out the clock. Fingers crossed.

And...looks like i should have stuck with Morris.I decided to give up on Mathews after week 8. I drafted Matt Ryan and RGIII in this league, and I've been trying to move RGIII since week 2. I hadn't been able to drum up interest from owners with bad starting QBs, but this week I did. I'm at 6-2 with a 13-week regular season, trying to position myself for the playoffs.I offered RGIII, Mathews and Larry Fitzgerald for Rivers, Lesean McCoy, and Victor Cruz. The other owner accepted about an hour later.I think it takes about 6-7 weeks of regular season games for defensive coordinators to get enough tape to start picking apart a new starting QB. I realize that RGIII's receivers dropped a lot of passes against PIT, but I think the Newton-esque decline is looming. Ryan, in contrast, has a great schedule looming.

 

[Mikejay]

Love the topic, OP..Thoughts on Ray Rice going forward?seems like he has seen a somewhat stady decline in production, he's no longer the center of the Ravens' offense, they Spread the ball around a lot more now..

He's still the straw that stirs the drink and if Cam Cameron was smart he'd feed him the rock and take it out of Sucko's hands.

In the ultimate buy low, sell high (or sell a great player and buya dud), I have the opportunity to trade RGIII and LeShoure for Cam and Rice - they'd all be starters. Thoughts?

 

[The Indestructible]

What does the Shark Pool think about Ridley? He is very inconsistent, but over the season thus far, he has really outproduced his draft spot. I'm a Ridley owner and am tempted to sell high after his last performance.

 

[Concept Coop]

In the ultimate buy low, sell high (or sell a great player and buya dud), I have the opportunity to trade RGIII and LeShoure for Cam and Rice - they'd all be starters. Thoughts?

You have to do that. Have to. RG3 is the better option, but Cam will be a very solid QB1 from here on out, starting this week against the Redskins D. And Rice is Ray Rice.

 

[dewmass]

Love the topic, OP..Thoughts on Ray Rice going forward?seems like he has seen a somewhat stady decline in production, he's no longer the center of the Ravens' offense, they Spread the ball around a lot more now..

He's still the straw that stirs the drink and if Cam Cameron was smart he'd feed him the rock and take it out of Sucko's hands.

In the ultimate buy low, sell high (or sell a great player and buya dud), I have the opportunity to trade RGIII and LeShoure for Cam and Rice - they'd all be starters. Thoughts?

I'd accept that deal quickly before the other person changes their mind

 

[Tanner9919]

in a dynasty , non PPR for RB league, I have the chance to trade Ray Rice for Matt Ryan, straight up,or with throw-ins like R. Jennings and Gabbert(from me) to even out rosters.

thinking of doing it.I have Big Ben as my other QB..I like Rice, but something's off with the Ravens' offense..logic would say that they'd run Rice 20-25 times/gm,and give him 5-6 recs, but that's just not happening..

his ypg and att/gm this season, are both the second lowest of his career..granted there's still a long way to go before week 17...

 

[saber34]

In the ultimate buy low, sell high (or sell a great player and buya dud), I have the opportunity to trade RGIII and LeShoure for Cam and Rice - they'd all be starters. Thoughts?

You have to do that. Have to. RG3 is the better option, but Cam will be a very solid QB1 from here on out, starting this week against the Redskins D. And Rice is Ray Rice.

I reluctantly moved Newton for Rodgers... I did the discount-double-check, and still pulled the trigger.I figure Rodgers has been under-performing just like Cam has. I would expect both to improve, but Rodgers has the better history.And the Pack may be fighting until the end for the playoffs.For you though, you have think Carolina is going to find the right changes here soon, and Cam will respond!As a Lions fan, I worry about LeShoure's value! But for now, yes, he should be starting and Rice should get more action, while RGIII can't possibly keep over-producing? Can he?I agree, this trade needed to be made.

 

[saber34]

I'm in a keeper league, where Free Agents qualify for final round picks the next year.

I also currently hold the #1 Waiver option.

One of the middle of the pack players just dropped Greg Jennings. He's a #1 pick this year, so If I claim him on waivers, I will not be able to keep him next year per the rules.

However, If I wait until Monday morning and he clears Waivers, He'll qualify as a 23rd round pick next year.

The question is, will he provide enough this year through the Playoffs where I should claim the waiver?

Or, should I make the long-term move and see if he clears the wire?

We start 3 WR's and Flex a possible 4th.

I currently have (Marshall, Bowe, A. Brown, J. Gordon)

All 4 are currently slotted in the lineup.

To sweeten the pot, the free agent pickup would currently slot next years lineup with the following players(draft position) *23 rounds (w/6 idp's)

J. Gordon (15th)

A. Brown (16th)

A. Hernandez (21st)

G. Jennings (23rd)

Not sure, I'm feeling good about Brown and Gordon being the foundation of my WR core or not. but at those draft positions, I'll have more options available next year.

Guaranteed Waivers? Or Free Agent dreams?

 

[shadyridr]

perhaps dwyer is a good buy low if you think his injury is only a one week absence from being starter

 

[saber34]

What does the Shark Pool think about Ridley? He is very inconsistent, but over the season thus far, he has really outproduced his draft spot. I'm a Ridley owner and am tempted to sell high after his last performance.

I've never trusted the NE backfield. Seems like RB2/3 is the best production they consistently offer....But then, they do something crazy, like run 3 RB's over 100 yards each in a single game...Shanihanigans are over, now we have to deal with Bilicheckahanigans!! (Sorry bout that!)

 

[Dr. Awesome]

What does the Shark Pool think about Ridley? He is very inconsistent, but over the season thus far, he has really outproduced his draft spot. I'm a Ridley owner and am tempted to sell high after his last performance.

I just sold him in a package deal for Foster. I'd be willing to hold onto Ridley if I wasn't getting proper value (and it seems many folks knock his value for fear of Vereen/rbbc) but I would absolutely look to sell him. Week 16 he gets the Jaguars but the two weeks prior he faces SF and Houston. I understand the Patriots are a great offense but I'd rather gamble on a jucier schedule.

 

[Annyong]

In the ultimate buy low, sell high (or sell a great player and buya dud), I have the opportunity to trade RGIII and LeShoure for Cam and Rice - they'd all be starters. Thoughts?

You have to do that. Have to. RG3 is the better option, but Cam will be a very solid QB1 from here on out, starting this week against the Redskins D. And Rice is Ray Rice.

I reluctantly moved Newton for Rodgers... I did the discount-double-check, and still pulled the trigger.I figure Rodgers has been under-performing just like Cam has. I would expect both to improve, but Rodgers has the better history.And the Pack may be fighting until the end for the playoffs.For you though, you have think Carolina is going to find the right changes here soon, and Cam will respond!As a Lions fan, I worry about LeShoure's value! But for now, yes, he should be starting and Rice should get more action, while RGIII can't possibly keep over-producing? Can he?I agree, this trade needed to be made.

Reluctantly?

 

[Franknbeans]

Love the topic, OP..Thoughts on Ray Rice going forward?seems like he has seen a somewhat stady decline in production, he's no longer the center of the Ravens' offense, they Spread the ball around a lot more now..

He's still the straw that stirs the drink and if Cam Cameron was smart he'd feed him the rock and take it out of Sucko's hands.

In the ultimate buy low, sell high (or sell a great player and buya dud), I have the opportunity to trade RGIII and LeShoure for Cam and Rice - they'd all be starters. Thoughts?

I'd make that deal in a heartbeat

 

[daveypnz]

buy lows??

bradshaw?? eli will get back on track and open up the run soon enough

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

PPR Dynasty:

BUYS

Stafford

Bradford

Ben Tate

Mendenhall

Jon Stewart (with the realization he'll prob never be a RB1)

Maclin

Britt

SELLS

Reggie Bush

Dwayne Bowe

 

[EthnicFury]

PPR Dynasty:BUYSStaffordBradfordBen TateMendenhallJon Stewart (with the realization he'll prob never be a RB1)MaclinBrittSELLSReggie BushDwayne Bowe

Why sell Bowe in dynasty? I understand in redraft due to the KC factor, but he's likely gone in the offseason and has put up decent numbers even in his current situation

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

PPR Dynasty:BUYSStaffordBradfordBen TateMendenhallJon Stewart (with the realization he'll prob never be a RB1)MaclinBrittSELLSReggie BushDwayne Bowe

Why sell Bowe in dynasty? I understand in redraft due to the KC factor, but he's likely gone in the offseason and has put up decent numbers even in his current situation

I never desire acquiring/owning non-superstar WR's changing teams in the later portion of their careers. I question how much motivation he'll have if/when he gets new contract. (Past weight & off field issues). 29 next year. I don't view Bowe as a superstar talent. I think separation issues will begin to surface & IMO he'll be more of an NFL #2 quality WR within 3 years of next contract) If I were KC, I'd look to deal him and let Baldwin show what he has while the team navigates through its QB mess. I think giving Bowe big money has disaster written all over it.

 

[Sabertooth]

Hakeem Nicks is a player I am targetting in both dynasty and redrafts. Nobody circles the wagons like the Giants (sorry Bills fans).

 

[Concept Coop]

PPR Dynasty:BUYSStaffordBradfordBen TateMendenhallJon Stewart (with the realization he'll prob never be a RB1)MaclinBrittSELLSReggie BushDwayne Bowe

Why sell Bowe in dynasty? I understand in redraft due to the KC factor, but he's likely gone in the offseason and has put up decent numbers even in his current situation

I never desire acquiring/owning non-superstar WR's changing teams in the later portion of their careers. I question how much motivation he'll have if/when he gets new contract. (Past weight & off field issues). 29 next year. I don't view Bowe as a superstar talent. I think separation issues will begin to surface & IMO he'll be more of an NFL #2 quality WR within 3 years of next contract) If I were KC, I'd look to deal him and let Baldwin show what he has while the team navigates through its QB mess. I think giving Bowe big money has disaster written all over it.

Bowe's not the same guy he was when he first entered the NFL. He IS a hard worker and does take pride in his craft. He could be a threat for 100 receptions, depending on where he lands. I would say he is a hold, at the very least.

 

[Annyong]

Hakeem Nicks is a player I am targetting in both dynasty and redrafts. Nobody circles the wagons like the Giants (sorry Bills fans).

i just sold Nicks for Cam in redraft

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

PPR Dynasty:BUYSStaffordBradfordBen TateMendenhallJon Stewart (with the realization he'll prob never be a RB1)MaclinBrittSELLSReggie BushDwayne Bowe

Why sell Bowe in dynasty? I understand in redraft due to the KC factor, but he's likely gone in the offseason and has put up decent numbers even in his current situation

I never desire acquiring/owning non-superstar WR's changing teams in the later portion of their careers. I question how much motivation he'll have if/when he gets new contract. (Past weight & off field issues). 29 next year. I don't view Bowe as a superstar talent. I think separation issues will begin to surface & IMO he'll be more of an NFL #2 quality WR within 3 years of next contract) If I were KC, I'd look to deal him and let Baldwin show what he has while the team navigates through its QB mess. I think giving Bowe big money has disaster written all over it.

Bowe's not the same guy he was when he first entered the NFL. He IS a hard worker and does take pride in his craft. He could be a threat for 100 receptions, depending on where he lands. I would say he is a hold, at the very least.

You're right. And it goes both ways (not the same guy he was when entered the NFL). He also won't be as fast, as athletic and IMO as hungry when gets a new deal.I think a new deal in the area of what Boldin got from Baltimore is a good barometer of what he should get. Not a guy I'd give a lot of guaranteed $$ to. And I see similar output from Bowe (age 29+) -- I don't happen to think Boldin's an NFL #1 WR at this juncture.

 

[shadyridr]

I think Shonn Greene is a really good buy low. He stunk in the beginning of the year but look at the defenses he stunk against: Pit, Mia, SF, Hou. Pretty much a murderers row. Then look at the other teams he played against: BUF, NE, IND, & MIA again and he put up double digit pts in each of those games. Im not saying hes an every week play but hes a solid matchup play RB2. He gets pretty much all the touches and the Jets defense should keep them in most games. Now look at their remaining schedule:

@SEA- tough but they have gotten abused in the running game 3 weeks in a row now

@STL- tough but should be a low scoring game so he can get 15 touches easily

NWE- tough

ARI- easy

Now look at this playoff schedule:

@JAX

@TEN

SD

I liken him to Cedric Benson from last year

 

[BlackMagic10]

What about Charles and Mathews in dynasty leagues?

Both have disappointed and may have a new HC/system in the near future.

 

[UFGator0587]

sell marshawn lynch. buy afc west players. buy chris and andre johnson if cheap enough.

Because he has had some off games against some good run defense? If anything the emergence of an actual passing attack means teams can't stack the box against him. SF should be tough next week but I think he's a great buy low after that for the rest of the season.

They still have a brutal run schedule. I love Lynch but he still has two games against the 49ers (once in week 16), one game against the Cardinals (week 14), and games against the Dolphins, Vikings, and Bears. That's five of his remaining nine games against tough run defenses. Plus he still hasn't had his bye week.

yep, this. and he will max out on 9 td's this year. trade him while his value is still about the same as it was beginning of the season. after he gets shut out thursday night, owners will begin to catch on. he is THE sell high right now, imo.

Agreed. Marshawn Lynch for Reggie Bush would be a great move if Lynch owners can pull it off.

and to think I actually considered trying to make this move a few weeks ago. Lynch still faces SF twice and Chi once but SJax ran on SF, Foster ran on Chi, and CJ2K ran on Chi and Mia. His schedule doesn't look anywhere near as daunting now, he's running hard, and best of all...with 26 and 27 carries the last 2 weeks, Seattle is going to feed him and feed him and feed him. I'm not selling.

 

[asuterlowe]

sell marshawn lynch. buy afc west players. buy chris and andre johnson if cheap enough.

Because he has had some off games against some good run defense? If anything the emergence of an actual passing attack means teams can't stack the box against him. SF should be tough next week but I think he's a great buy low after that for the rest of the season.

They still have a brutal run schedule. I love Lynch but he still has two games against the 49ers (once in week 16), one game against the Cardinals (week 14), and games against the Dolphins, Vikings, and Bears. That's five of his remaining nine games against tough run defenses. Plus he still hasn't had his bye week.

yep, this. and he will max out on 9 td's this year. trade him while his value is still about the same as it was beginning of the season. after he gets shut out thursday night, owners will begin to catch on. he is THE sell high right now, imo.

Agreed. Marshawn Lynch for Reggie Bush would be a great move if Lynch owners can pull it off.

and to think I actually considered trying to make this move a few weeks ago. Lynch still faces SF twice and Chi once but SJax ran on SF, Foster ran on Chi, and CJ2K ran on Chi and Mia. His schedule doesn't look anywhere near as daunting now, he's running hard, and best of all...with 26 and 27 carries the last 2 weeks, Seattle is going to feed him and feed him and feed him. I'm not selling.

Yeah Lynch has one bad game this year, which I think was a result of the Seahawks exploiting the Pats weak secondary. He is about as matchup proof as they come and still not getting respect. 6 100 yard games this year (7 if you count 98yds against GB) and no real signs that he will slow down

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Well I have a trade deadline tonight....

Anyone else?

Got a list going?

I liked the Maclin thoughts from the other thread, so I've put an offer in for him.

Is it possibly, somehow, maybe possible that Ray Rice is a 'buy low' relatively in the sense that he's had two (for him) subpar games in a row, is getting fewer carries and has two matchups with Pittsburgh in the offing?

 

[Instinctive]

Bought low on Morris (IMO) and sold high on Harvin (I don't like late ankle/foot injuries) as well as using FLACCO:

Morris and Nicks

Flacco, Harvin, RJennings, Ballard

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that you can combine a buy low with a weekend like we just had, where some people got destroyed at QB and need a guy now. Flacco had almost no value all year, I have Brees ahead of him every week...now I can move him to get a top 12 RB, and it basically only costs me a downgrade from Harvin to Nicks.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Bought low on Morris (IMO) and sold high on Harvin (I don't like late ankle/foot injuries) as well as using FLACCO:

Morris and Nicks

Flacco, Harvin, RJennings, Ballard

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that you can combine a buy low with a weekend like we just had, where some people got destroyed at QB and need a guy now. Flacco had almost no value all year, I have Brees ahead of him every week...now I can move him to get a top 12 RB, and it basically only costs me a downgrade from Harvin to Nicks.

Ha, now see I was thinking buy low on Harvin and sell high on Morris...

 

[Instinctive]

Bought low on Morris (IMO) and sold high on Harvin (I don't like late ankle/foot injuries) as well as using FLACCO:

Morris and Nicks

Flacco, Harvin, RJennings, Ballard

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that you can combine a buy low with a weekend like we just had, where some people got destroyed at QB and need a guy now. Flacco had almost no value all year, I have Brees ahead of him every week...now I can move him to get a top 12 RB, and it basically only costs me a downgrade from Harvin to Nicks.

Ha, now see I was thinking buy low on Harvin and sell high on Morris...

If you believe Harvin comes back fine, he is a buy low. But I like the schedule Nicks has, and I like the schedule Morris has (and he's coming off two subpar games and a bye). Harvin's coming off a bye, an injury, and has a TOUGH schedule, with 2 CHI games, HOU...tough defenses. He'll get his, but Ponder could wilt. I was worried.I'm in nearly 100% schedule mode at this point in the year. I don;t want good players, I want decent players with great schedules. It has always worked out for me in the past.

 

[Concept Coop]

Bought low on Morris (IMO) and sold high on Harvin (I don't like late ankle/foot injuries) as well as using FLACCO:

Morris and Nicks

Flacco, Harvin, RJennings, Ballard

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that you can combine a buy low with a weekend like we just had, where some people got destroyed at QB and need a guy now. Flacco had almost no value all year, I have Brees ahead of him every week...now I can move him to get a top 12 RB, and it basically only costs me a downgrade from Harvin to Nicks.

Ha, now see I was thinking buy low on Harvin and sell high on Morris...

Not me. Give me Morris/Nicks.

 

[Concept Coop]

What about Charles and Mathews in dynasty leagues?Both have disappointed and may have a new HC/system in the near future.

I love Charles as a buy low. Personally don't like Matthews at his price tag, and would look to sell this off season, when the hype builds up again. In a dynasty league, I sent Ridley, Vereen, Ballard for Charles. Not sure if I would call it buying low, since Ridley has value. But I like him more than the NE backfield situation.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Bought low on Morris (IMO) and sold high on Harvin (I don't like late ankle/foot injuries) as well as using FLACCO:

Morris and Nicks

Flacco, Harvin, RJennings, Ballard

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that you can combine a buy low with a weekend like we just had, where some people got destroyed at QB and need a guy now. Flacco had almost no value all year, I have Brees ahead of him every week...now I can move him to get a top 12 RB, and it basically only costs me a downgrade from Harvin to Nicks.

Ha, now see I was thinking buy low on Harvin and sell high on Morris...

If you believe Harvin comes back fine, he is a buy low. But I like the schedule Nicks has, and I like the schedule Morris has (and he's coming off two subpar games and a bye). Harvin's coming off a bye, an injury, and has a TOUGH schedule, with 2 CHI games, HOU...tough defenses. He'll get his, but Ponder could wilt. I was worried.I'm in nearly 100% schedule mode at this point in the year. I don;t want good players, I want decent players with great schedules. It has always worked out for me in the past.

Great stuff, thanks.

 

[phowler13]

Ive gotten two odd offers mostly because theyre same position for same position. Ive always thought trades to upgrade other positions are easier. Cant decided on either of these or if im buying low or selling hi.

In a ppr start 2 qb redraft I've been offered

My d Martin and d. Jackson for r rice and j jones (gb)

Also offered my freeman and r Mathews for mcgahee and Flacco.

Sorry if it turned assistant coach but I'm always curious to see what others are giving and getting.

 

[Childress]

I would sell DMC considerably lower than his dynasty value should be fyi.

 

[Instinctive]

Bought low on Morris (IMO) and sold high on Harvin (I don't like late ankle/foot injuries) as well as using FLACCO:

Morris and Nicks

Flacco, Harvin, RJennings, Ballard

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that you can combine a buy low with a weekend like we just had, where some people got destroyed at QB and need a guy now. Flacco had almost no value all year, I have Brees ahead of him every week...now I can move him to get a top 12 RB, and it basically only costs me a downgrade from Harvin to Nicks.

Ha, now see I was thinking buy low on Harvin and sell high on Morris...

If you believe Harvin comes back fine, he is a buy low. But I like the schedule Nicks has, and I like the schedule Morris has (and he's coming off two subpar games and a bye). Harvin's coming off a bye, an injury, and has a TOUGH schedule, with 2 CHI games, HOU...tough defenses. He'll get his, but Ponder could wilt. I was worried.I'm in nearly 100% schedule mode at this point in the year. I don;t want good players, I want decent players with great schedules. It has always worked out for me in the past.

Great stuff, thanks.

Given the chance to re-write that sentence I would say: I'm in nearly 100% schedule mode at this point in the year. I don't want good players, I want ABSOLUTELY GREAT PLAYERS (A LA CALVIN) or decent players with great schedules. It has always worked out for me in the past.