T with T
Footballguy
He will go down as the Greatest, yes ahead of Rice, Moss, T.O and others.......
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Calvin? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter SCT
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bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
even though the lions in general have sucked forever.
i think a case will be made that the had the greatest RB and greatest WR ever to play for the franchise.
Calvin is unreal
i think a case will be made that the had the greatest RB and greatest WR ever to play for the franchise.
Calvin is unreal
Art Vandalay
Footballguy
Am I the only person on this forum that just doesn't think Calvin is as amazing as others. He is an athletic freak no doubt but I struggle to compare him to the other great who did it for multiple teams in other situations.
It seems like Calvin is in the perfect storm, ultra talented but also has an offense that passes first asks questions later, Doesn't have another threat for catches and the biggest THING that bugs me is that it Stafford will just throw it up to him and let him make plays all day, he doesn't make another read, he gets more opportunities to make plays (rightfully so because he makes them more often than not) but I see someone like AJ Green and think he would be doing the exact same thing if given that chance.
Put Calvin on the Bengals with Andy "Nerf Gun" Dalton and he doesn't get the chance to make a lot of the plays because of the QB's are but more importantly the QB making another read to a more open receiver because Calvin draw the coverage. Calvin puts up the stats he doesn't not just because of him but because of his situation
It seems like Calvin is in the perfect storm, ultra talented but also has an offense that passes first asks questions later, Doesn't have another threat for catches and the biggest THING that bugs me is that it Stafford will just throw it up to him and let him make plays all day, he doesn't make another read, he gets more opportunities to make plays (rightfully so because he makes them more often than not) but I see someone like AJ Green and think he would be doing the exact same thing if given that chance.
Put Calvin on the Bengals with Andy "Nerf Gun" Dalton and he doesn't get the chance to make a lot of the plays because of the QB's are but more importantly the QB making another read to a more open receiver because Calvin draw the coverage. Calvin puts up the stats he doesn't not just because of him but because of his situation
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
what you mean like Jerry Rice didnt have Joe Montana or Steve Young throwing him the ball, and he held on forever to try and pad his stats with the seahawks.
Calvin is more talented than Rice, and he works just as hard
habsfan
Footballguy
Concerning stats alone, sure situation is important. As a football fan, what I see is the proverbial "man among boys". He's the sort of player that "call his shot" - tells you exactly what he's going to do and then does it to you anyway.
flapgreen
Footballguy
You're alone.
Franknbeans
Footballguy
Now isn't the best time to take a contrary position
John 14:6
Jesus is Lord!
NOW is the time to trade him. His value will never be higher!
We need a "chicken little" emoticon...
ItsOnlytheRiver
Footballguy
Some people will just find any reason to not believe I guess. I remember you writing this over the summer. It was wrong then and it's still wrong. If yesterday won't convince you then nothing will.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
He is just getting into his prime.
Futz
Footballguy
lod01
Footballguy
I wouldn't call 11 games with the seahawks 'hanging on forever to pad stats'.
I would however call 92-1200-7 TD, amazing for a 40 year old. I had Rice for 9 years in FFL and will have Megatron for his whole career. They are both incredible. Megatron with unparalled physical skills. Rice however would have taken that slant pass the distance. He was a master at not being denied anytime he sniffed the GL.
LarryAllen'sJockstrap
Footballguy
Calvin has played 94 games in his career; I compared Rice's first 95 games to Calvin's 94 and here are the numbers on both
Receptions:
Rice - 526
Calvin - 535
Receiving Yards:
Rice - 9072
Calvin - 8657
YPR:
Rice - 17.2
Calvin - 16.2
TDs:
Rice - 93
Calvin - 61
Rice had nearly 150% of the TDs Calvin does as this time in their respective careers. Aside from that, they are highly comparable in receptions and yards. I'm surprised how ridiculousy high Rice's YPR was the first half of his career.
Receptions:
Rice - 526
Calvin - 535
Receiving Yards:
Rice - 9072
Calvin - 8657
YPR:
Rice - 17.2
Calvin - 16.2
TDs:
Rice - 93
Calvin - 61
Rice had nearly 150% of the TDs Calvin does as this time in their respective careers. Aside from that, they are highly comparable in receptions and yards. I'm surprised how ridiculousy high Rice's YPR was the first half of his career.
Futz
Footballguy
That's a pretty shocking TD disparity. I do have to defend Calvin though. I think he had 7 different QBs throwing him the ball early on in his career and they were all garbage. Rice had pretty much had a HOFer throughout his career.
I don't think you make an argument for Calvin at this point. He's got to get to the playoffs, make a run and be a MVP type of player when it matters most. He's got plenty of work left to do.
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DoubleG
Footballguy
First of all, the guy makes plays that other "normal" WRs would just let go over their heads. He makes plays, despite being double and triple covered (quick, name the WR2 in Detroit - or any of them in the last 8 years). Clearly, it's been the incredible running game of the Lions that have stopped defenses from focusing exclusively on Calvin...oh wait...I don't, nor have I ever had the privilege of owning him in any FF league - but I wish I did (or had).
Honestly, there I times I think Stafford doesn't throw to him enough - but he is clearly one of the best of all time at his position.
Breesisdaman
Footballguy
He will but only if he gets a Super Bowl ring. Rice had a long a decorated career and may have had more to do with making Montana great than folks realize. Calvin should get his though and soon.
John 14:6
Jesus is Lord!
)
TwinTurbo
Footballguy
The TD disparity is team related. Just comparing their rookie seasons, the 1985 49ers had 411 PF and 263 PA. The 2007 Lions had 346 PF and 444 PA. 2008 was even worse for the Lions with only 268 PF. The Matt Millen era was horrible, while the 49ers had John McVay, Bill Walsh and much better teams and players which allowed them significantly more scoring opportunities during Rice's first 95 games.
Just flat out impossible to cover. You can put 3 guys on him and they'll still be overmatched because a 5'10 corner can't go up to 11 feet in the air like Calvin can.
No disrespect to AJ Green but he's not in the same world as Calvin. Taller, faster, more explosive he's a once in a generation talent. Just to compare, Calvin is an inch taller, 20 pounds heavier, ran more than a tenth faster, had an 8 inch higher vertical and beat him by more than a foot on the broad jump at their respective combine days. I'd have to guess that every GM would take Johnson over any other WR but Art Vandalay from footballguys might know more.
No disrespect to AJ Green but he's not in the same world as Calvin. Taller, faster, more explosive he's a once in a generation talent. Just to compare, Calvin is an inch taller, 20 pounds heavier, ran more than a tenth faster, had an 8 inch higher vertical and beat him by more than a foot on the broad jump at their respective combine days. I'd have to guess that every GM would take Johnson over any other WR but Art Vandalay from footballguys might know more.
AJ Green has 7 more targets than Johnson in one more game played, so no he doesn't have a significant more opportunity to make plays.
Calvin hung 1300 and 12 TDs with Dan Orlovski starting 7 games. The bengals with Dalton would be an upgrade over that situation, your hate in unfounded and you're grasping at straws here.
DoubleG
Footballguy
Is this supposed to read "I am the only person..." or as an actual question (the period at the end makes it confusing).
If it's a statement, my response is "TRUE", if it is a question, then it is "Yes."
habsfan
Footballguy
It reminds me of the difference between a car that does a 13 second 1/4 mile and one that does a sub 11 second 1/4. It doesn't seem like much difference but in reality those two cars are not in the same league..
smapdi
Footballguy
It's just you
I don't understand how Johnson making plays all day when Stafford "Just throws it up" is a knock on him?? That is what makes him such an amazing player. He can outclass ANY CB in the league with his athleticism & size to make the catch. That "knock" on you present on him is what makes him the best WR to ever play the game- he can go up and get the ball no matter what- Oh, you have 3 guys on him, grabbing, and holding? No sweat, He'll just out leap everyone and use his massive hands to catch the TD.
Your other knock is that he is their only WR and the only threat to catch balls. Again, that's what makes his performances even greater. The defense knows that the Lions will be using Megatron all game to make plays & he will still make them. Defenses gameplan around him, double and triple team him, and KNOW Stafford is looking at him yet he still puts up a 300+ yard performance. It's amazing. He seriously gets tripled team and it doesn't make a lick of difference.
mquinnjr
Footballguy
I don't have stats to back this up, but watching him get triple teamed and still coming down with the balls that are put up to him, he's literally getting gang tackled on receptions. I have to think that's a contributor to the TD disparity.TwinTurbo said:
I'm asking here, since it pre-dates me. Did Rice see regular double/triple coverage like Calvin does? I feel like there's something to the gang-tackling with the amount of bodies on him possibly explaining the TD disparity between the two.
smapdi
Footballguy
The TD's will come. I don't have the stats to back it up but I swear no other player has been tackled inside the 5 yard line then him. Yesterday alone, he should've at mininum had another 2 TDs but was tackled at the 1 yard line.
He's is so hot right now, the TDs will begin to pile up. Its only a matter of time; he won't get tackled at the half yard line all season long.
He's the best to ever play the position. Jerry Rice may have more TDs at this juncture of their careers but it comes down to one simple question for me: if you're playing the Superbowl tomorrow, who would rather have as your WR? That answer is simple for me: Calvin Johnson 10 times out of 10
He's 6'5" / 238 LB of pure quick twitch athlete. Rice was only 6'2" / 200 LB. That's a major advantage off the bat. CJ is also much faster then Jerry Rice. On Rice's best day, I believe he was around a 4.50 in the 40. Megatron is a sub 4.40 guy. CJ is consistently double teamed (sometimes tripled) and he still makes play after play. Just go back and watch his TD against CIN last week; you won't find too many of those in Jerry Rices highlight reel.
CalBear
Footballguy
cstu
Footballguy
Kitna, a rookie Stafford, and a down year by Stafford where he just missed out on a bunch of TD's.
Give the guy Montana like Rice had and he blows the lid off the record books.
smapdi
Footballguy
Yup. Just look at Johnson's QB situation up until this year. There are a few reasons they haven't played in a 4 Superbowls and Johnson isn't one of those. He definitely didn't have Joe Montana or Steve Young as his QB.
I'd still take Johnson in my one game scenario. He's just too perfect of a WR not too; you couldn't design a better player from scratch then what CJ is. His size and athleticism is such a massive advantage when he's going against CB's that average around 5'11". That's over half a foot and probably 50 pounds. Then add in his tremendous leaping ability and massive hands & you can see why he consistently beats double teams like they're not even covering him.
CalBear
Footballguy
That's what we heard about Randy Moss, too. It might have been, but until it is, it's not.
Until, after 9 seasons, he had 47td's in his first 48 games with Brady including the single-season record? At ages 30-32.
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Franknbeans
Footballguy
Another interesting stat... Calvin is working onhis third straight season of averaging over 100 yards per game. Rice did it once in his career.LarryAllen said:
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
how man other hall of famers is Calvin playing with?
How many did Jerry Rice play with? including 2 all-time great HOF QBs?
Winning Superbowls is a team game
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Montana won a supebowl without Jerry riceBreesisdaman said:
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Jim Brown is the best comp. Calvin is just bigger stronger and faster than everyone else. It is pretty amazing that Rice scored about 50% more touchdowns through the same amount of games in his career. It's like all those "almost" touchdown Calvin has were actual score for Rice.
Although Rice probably didn't have to deal with things like "completing the process" and "football moves."
Although Rice probably didn't have to deal with things like "completing the process" and "football moves."
T with T
Footballguy
T with T
Footballguy
exactly at one time he had mr. Orlovsky throwing him duds in the 0-16 seasonFutz said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EZrpEdc0ZQ
Im from the Detroit area, I know you probably all will laugh and tell me im poor, but live in suburbs so it's not as horrible as media makes it out , but anyways Calvin has dealt with complete inadequate qbs half his career. He has had 1 good qb, Obviously that being Stafford... Stafford is 25 and Calvin is a young 28, I can see this combo together for another 8-9 years. Rice always had HOF qbs (montana,Young) and had Offensive Genius Bill walsh, who had just designed this up tempo west coast offense, which no one in the league has ever seen before. I think it's hard to compare the two because Rice is Great and probably top 3 All time football player bar none. I just think that Calvin is on another planet and he is a Man among Boys in a sport that has gotten better as far as PHYSICAL talent. You see these 6-4 cornerbacks in sea weighing 230 lbs, Offensive line men that are 330 and can run 4.6.... the playing field is ridiculous and to dominate like that now says alot about Don Mega.
T with T
Footballguy
I keep telling people but they don't wanna hear.... Im gonna say it here, He is the LEBRON JAMES of Football... No matter if you hate Lebron or love him you can relate to what im talking about..... This is in their physical Beastlyness, or freakish athletic ability. Both players are the most athletic EVER in their respective sports, and it's not even really close.
FF Wiseguy
Footballguy
If I'm betting on if Calvin can match Rice's total productivity, I'm betting against. Not because I don't believe Calvin is an equal or even superior talent, but because betting against a football player having longevity, let alone elite longevity, is usually the smart bet. If anyone can do it, it's Calvin, and I'm rooting for him despite Rice being my favorite player ever.
As far as the circumstances each player plays in, I think it cancels out for the most part. Switching each player's team has positive and negative effects. Calvin gets better QBs, but is also on a more well rounded team that doesn't necessarily have to force feed him the ball, and where Calvin would take more punishment. Rice gets put on a pass-happy team where he's the only option, and gets to play in an era where defenders aren't allowed to make contact outside of 5 yards.
As far as the physical comparison, I don't have much to say, as that speaks for itself. I will say this in Rice's defense: I think a lot of experts will agree that 40 time is misleading when evaluating WRs. Speed in an out of cuts is more important, and it doesn't translate to 40 time, unless you look at only the first 10 yards. From what I've read, part of what made Rice so deadly was he did not lose any speed going in and out of cuts, which made him virtually impossible to cover.
As far as the circumstances each player plays in, I think it cancels out for the most part. Switching each player's team has positive and negative effects. Calvin gets better QBs, but is also on a more well rounded team that doesn't necessarily have to force feed him the ball, and where Calvin would take more punishment. Rice gets put on a pass-happy team where he's the only option, and gets to play in an era where defenders aren't allowed to make contact outside of 5 yards.
As far as the physical comparison, I don't have much to say, as that speaks for itself. I will say this in Rice's defense: I think a lot of experts will agree that 40 time is misleading when evaluating WRs. Speed in an out of cuts is more important, and it doesn't translate to 40 time, unless you look at only the first 10 yards. From what I've read, part of what made Rice so deadly was he did not lose any speed going in and out of cuts, which made him virtually impossible to cover.
T with T
Footballguy
Double G you are spot on brother. I will never forget the game I went to in 07 Lions and Giants at ford field..... Calvin was a rookie and was being ignored most of game and then they just chucked a ball like 35 yards and Calvin came up with it and scored a td... Everyone in the stands were screaming throw it to CALVIN, PLEASE throw it to CALVIN, and this is vs the GIANTS, the eventual superbowl winners that year. The lions were right their in the game and had a chance right up to the end but decided to throw an interception on a jump ball to shaun mcdonald..... I will never forget that in all my years I live. This was still the team with clowns like roy williams mike furrey on the team... Good lord.
I don't, nor have I ever had the privilege of owning him in any FF league - but I wish I did (or had).
Honestly, there I times I think Stafford doesn't throw to him enough - but he is clearly one of the best of all time at his position.
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Hoss Style
Footballguy
Winning Super Bowls will make you a Hall of Famer. I don't care who's throwing him the ball - if you big-time it like Rice did in those Super Bowls, you are the man.
He's shorter than Calvin. He's slower. He's not as strong. And everyone still knew Rice was getting the ball. He had maybe the best route running of all time and was fearless coming across the middle (back when you'd get snot-nosed doing it). He played angles after the catch maybe better than anyone ever has, too. That's why he scored so often - his vision and how he processed what he saw was amazing. Hands were incredible, speed was better on the field than it was off it without pads.
I love Calvin, but good lord, let the guy get near the end of his career before you start dissing Rice's stats. I don't care if Jesus was throwing Rice the ball - 36 receptions, 635 yards and 8 TDs in not just 4 games, but 4 games on the biggest stage in the world is amazing.
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FF Wiseguy
Footballguy
I think the comparisons of LeBron vs. MJ and Calvin vs. Rice are incredibly similar. They're athletic ability and ability to completely dominate a game are totally unparalleled. But both at this point in there careers have a long way to go to overtake the best ever (Lebron less so than Calvin). Also, I think MJ and Rice have intangibles that mitigate some of the gap in physical ability. Mostly, they're the most competitive a-holes ever to play their sport and that allowed them to elevate every part of their play - practice, season, playoffs, championships - to a level that couldn't really be matched. I guess their emotional beastliness rivals Lebron/Calvin's physical beastliness.
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T with T
Footballguy
Hoss Style
Footballguy
This is a pretty good point, as well. Swap minds and bodies and I wonder how they'd do. I think it's closer with Calvin and Rice, though. Calvin seems to work pretty hard at what he does (from all reports). But Rice workouts were legendary. Some WRs train with Rice even today and say his workouts are insane. And Rice isn't even pushing it like he used to.
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