Cam Newton (1 Viewer)

[lbouchard]

Even during Cam's second half "swoon" after the bye week, he averaged 26.75 points from weeks 9-16. If that's his floor, I'll gladly take it. And I see no reason why he can't improve.

 

[Eminence]

Even during Cam's second half "swoon" after the bye week, he averaged 26.75 points from weeks 9-16. If that's his floor, I'll gladly take it. And I see no reason why he can't improve.

I feel as if Cam develops as a passer, his rushing statistics would drop. It might be bold and I know it's an unpopular statement but I think last year was his ceiling.

 

[hotboyz]

I agree, in re draft I wouldn't touch him until after Brees, Brady, Stafford, and Rogers are off the board. But as a dynasty player, I think mid 1st round is a steal for a 23 year old with the floor of Cam.

you say you wouldnt touch him til after top qbs are gone but how do you put Stafford in that argument How many more starts does Stafford have over cam hell stafford been hurt every yr except the last one i consider him more of a risk than Cam!!

 

[lbouchard]

Even during Cam's second half "swoon" after the bye week, he averaged 26.75 points from weeks 9-16. If that's his floor, I'll gladly take it. And I see no reason why he can't improve.

I feel as if Cam develops as a passer, his rushing statistics would drop. It might be bold and I know it's an unpopular statement but I think last year was his ceiling.

Disagree. I think Cam has the highest ceiling in fantasy football.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Even during Cam's second half "swoon" after the bye week, he averaged 26.75 points from weeks 9-16. If that's his floor, I'll gladly take it. And I see no reason why he can't improve.

I feel as if Cam develops as a passer, his rushing statistics would drop. It might be bold and I know it's an unpopular statement but I think last year was his ceiling.

Disagree. I think Cam has the highest ceiling in fantasy football.

Disagree w/ your disagree because Cam's TEAM sucks.

 

[ImTheScientist]

I agree, in re draft I wouldn't touch him until after Brees, Brady, Stafford, and Rogers are off the board. But as a dynasty player, I think mid 1st round is a steal for a 23 year old with the floor of Cam.

you say you wouldnt touch him til after top qbs are gone but how do you put Stafford in that argument How many more starts does Stafford have over cam hell stafford been hurt every yr except the last one i consider him more of a risk than Cam!!

Stafford has started 29 games and 2 years more experience ... thats a pretty big deal.

 

[lbouchard]

Even during Cam's second half "swoon" after the bye week, he averaged 26.75 points from weeks 9-16. If that's his floor, I'll gladly take it. And I see no reason why he can't improve.

I feel as if Cam develops as a passer, his rushing statistics would drop. It might be bold and I know it's an unpopular statement but I think last year was his ceiling.

Disagree. I think Cam has the highest ceiling in fantasy football.

Disagree w/ your disagree because Cam's TEAM sucks.

Their offense was top 10, so clearly the defense sucks. They lost several starters to the IR last season and drafted Kuechly, who's expected to be a day 1 stud. I think their defense is going to be much improved.

 

[The Gunslinger]

I agree, in re draft I wouldn't touch him until after Brees, Brady, Stafford, and Rogers are off the board. But as a dynasty player, I think mid 1st round is a steal for a 23 year old with the floor of Cam.

you say you wouldnt touch him til after top qbs are gone but how do you put Stafford in that argument How many more starts does Stafford have over cam hell stafford been hurt every yr except the last one i consider him more of a risk than Cam!!

I'd have over Stafford but you can get Stafford two rounds later than Cam in re-draft. They have similar risk IMO. Dynasty wise I think he is the number 1 overall player as a 23 year old with a top 5 QB finish.

 

[pantherclub]

Even during Cam's second half "swoon" after the bye week, he averaged 26.75 points from weeks 9-16. If that's his floor, I'll gladly take it. And I see no reason why he can't improve.

I feel as if Cam develops as a passer, his rushing statistics would drop. It might be bold and I know it's an unpopular statement but I think last year was his ceiling.

Disagree. I think Cam has the highest ceiling in fantasy football.

Disagree w/ your disagree because Cam's TEAM sucks.

It doesnt even make sense to counter your claim when its obvious you didnt watch the team or even do any research. The offense wasnt the problem. At all. If they get Otah back then thats a huge part add to the fact that they addressed the special teams and defense during the draft and hopefully beason and the DT's come back and I think the Panthers are easily contenders in the South.

 

[Crazy Tony]

I actually think the original post raises a good point: Does Cam Newton's (very successful) style of play suffer a larger-than-average drop off as defenses become better able to plan for him?

It's pretty clear his numbers dropped off as the season progressed. But the question is WHY? I see a few options:

(1) His numbers dropped off because all QB numbers drop off as the season progresses. I read some article once that charted points/stats by offenses over the course of the season, and the point it made was that for the first several games of every season, offenses typically score more points/stats than in the latter half of the season. The article's theory was that defenses get more film as the season progresses, and can better plan to shut down offenses. To check this possibility, compare Newton's drop off in 2011 against how the average QB stats dropped off.

(2) His numbers dropped off because the defenses he faced in the second half were tougher. This is an obvious possibility, and should be easy to check by comparing the relative strength of the passing defenses. This seems tailor-made for the Football Outsiders metrics on quality defense, or whatever they're called.

(3) His numbers dropped off because defenses really did start to figure him out, and game plan to stop him. We've seen other running QBs who seemed stronger at the beginning, but then regressed some as defensive coordinators mapped their skillsets, and identified the weaknesses. Vince Young and Michael Vick are two easy examples that come to mind. Maybe Newton will face the same issue.

I'm of course not saying Newton is going to bomb in 2012. He's a strong player, and he surely will be a top-10 QB. But I definitely would be nervous about some regression.

Interesting topic.

I like this POST because it's not emotionally charged as hating on CAM etc. I drafted Greg Little over CAM newton and I'm kicking myself. What Newton did was amazing. He scored a ton of points and did it a variety of ways in my league. Passing/Russing and Bonus Tiers. But he was QB5. His passing stats were mediocre with lots of yardage. His Running was like Bo Jackson in original Tecmo Bowl.

Brees scored 512 points in our league 5476/46/18/ 1 rush TD.

Rodgers scored 487pts 4600 45TD/6INT/ 3 Rush TD

Brady 475 points 5200+ 39 TD 12int/3 rush TD

Stafford 439pts 5000+ 41TD/16 INT

Newton scored 415 points. 4057/21TD/17Int 706 rush 14 rush TD.

Matt Ryan 332 pts (was mentioned earlier)

VICK 3300yds 18 td 14 int 500yds 1 rush td 271 total points. (A notable running QB)

NEWTON is talented, strong arm, fast, hard to tackle, big body can take a hit. Is he accurate? Can he read DEF? Does he need to?

Play breaks down he can create on the run. But he'll take hits doing this.

Hits can cause injury. Increasing odds of knocking him out of the game.

He's good but you don't want your stud QB getting hit.

When I look at the #s

4051 Yds (Good to Great)

21TDs/17int (Mediocre at best)

706 Rushyds (Record breaking)

14 rush TDs. (Record Breaking)

Obviously, the area of emphasis for improvement for CAM's all around game is going to be passing.

Increasing TD passes, Reducing INTs, This might come at a cost of running less.

What I was thinking reading the Original Post was....

Newton did sooo well. It's hard to reasonably expect his value to be much higher.

If he regresses...he might only score 300pts...but that's 300pts w/ a lot of upside.

I expect Top 10 QBs to be 300pts. Top 5 QBs closer to 400pts. Anything above and beyond that is a bonus. Don't count on it every year.

14 Rush TDs 706 rush yards is exceeding expectations. There are a lot of bonus points there. Don't count on it each year. 350yds & 7TD would still be awesome.

3600 pass yards would not be bad but lower production

30+ passing TDs would be nice. 3/1 pass TD/INT ratio. great.

10-12 INTS

If CAR improves as a team...they might pass the ball less. That means Newton Running and passing production could drop.

Newton could score 10TDs rushing in 2012...run for 550yds but the guy w/ original post would be right. It's a drop in production.

W/O improving as a passer he's at risk for drop off in production. He physically willed his way into top 5 QB production by running to pay dirt.

There are players that can tackle him, that are as fast as him, that are as big as he is.

If his passing stats approach those of the other Top Scoring QBs in my league NEWTON is capable of a 600pt season.

But he's also capable of 300pt season +/- 50pts. At risk for injury the more he runs and gets hit.

Matt Ryan was brought up as a better value.

Yes/No. Ryan presents value and doesn't cost as much as Newton.

Ryan doesn't have Newton's ceiling. Ryan's playing at or near his perceived ceiling. We thought ELI was playing at or near his Top 15 QB play but exceed that and lived up to his own comments "I'm an elite QB".

Unless NEWTON's passing improves. I don't think you can count on more that 300pts +/- 50. "only a 300pt player" sounds funny.

If it does we'll get to witness something we've never seen before. That rare generational talent someone else mentioned.

I don't care what the DEF scheme is. SEC or NFL...yes Newton got 14 rush TDs. If he does it again Great. I'm never going to count on 14 rush TDs from a QB. They're passers and running is icing on the cake. I might factor in 50% of that production but looking for passing. The fact that he CAN get 14 rush TDs is nice to know.

 

[lbouchard]

I expect Top 10 QBs to be 300pts. Top 5 QBs closer to 400pts. Anything above and beyond that is a bonus. Don't count on it every year. 14 Rush TDs 706 rush yards is exceeding expectations. There are a lot of bonus points there. Don't count on it each year. 350yds & 7TD would still be awesome. W/O improving as a passer he's at risk for drop off in production. He physically willed his way into top 5 QB production by running to pay dirt. There are players that can tackle him, that are as fast as him, that are as big as he is. If his passing stats approach those of the other Top Scoring QBs in my league NEWTON is capable of a 600pt season. But he's also capable of 300pt season +/- 50pts. At risk for injury the more he runs and gets hit. Unless NEWTON's passing improves. I don't think you can count on more that 300pts +/- 50. "only a 300pt player" sounds funny.If it does we'll get to witness something we've never seen before. That rare generational talent someone else mentioned. I don't care what the DEF scheme is. SEC or NFL...yes Newton got 14 rush TDs. If he does it again Great. I'm never going to count on 14 rush TDs from a QB. They're passers and running is icing on the cake. I might factor in 50% of that production but looking for passing. The fact that he CAN get 14 rush TDs is nice to know.

Re: injury risk: Yes, Cam runs the ball. But he is 6'5", 250 lbs, in other words a tank. I don't think he's that much of an injury risk unless someone plants their helmet in his knee a la Pollard/Brady. I also don't think that there are that many players that can tackle him one on one. He's a fantastic runner, and as I mentioned, it's like a tank barreling down on you. He needs to be gang tackled. Finally, we all see this regression talk regarding his rushing TDs. But he's a once in a generational type talent. He could just as easily rush for 20 as he could for 7. Highest ceiling in FF.

 

[The Gunslinger]

Michael Jordan of football. We are going to be sick of seeing him on every commercial, SNL, dancing with cartoons in Space Tackle, etc.

It's going to be horrible, but get ready for monster stats and multiple superbowls in the future.

How do I know? Watch him play. He dominates the way Jordan dominated basketball and Gretzky dominated hockey. And he did it as a rookie.

Get him now in Dynasty as he is about to redifine the QB record book.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Michael Jordan of football. We are going to be sick of seeing him on every commercial, SNL, dancing with cartoons in Space Tackle, etc. It's going to be horrible, but get ready for monster stats and multiple superbowls in the future. How do I know? Watch him play. He dominates the way Jordan dominated basketball and Gretzky dominated hockey. And he did it as a rookie. Get him now in Dynasty as he is about to redifine the QB record book.

Lol......stop being silly

 

[TheFanatic]

Even during Cam's second half "swoon" after the bye week, he averaged 26.75 points from weeks 9-16. If that's his floor, I'll gladly take it. And I see no reason why he can't improve.

I feel as if Cam develops as a passer, his rushing statistics would drop. It might be bold and I know it's an unpopular statement but I think last year was his ceiling.

Disagree. I think Cam has the highest ceiling in fantasy football.

Disagree w/ your disagree because Cam's TEAM sucks.

This may be the dumbest thing I've seen in a long time on this board and that's saying something.Troy Aikman was on some pretty dominant teams. He was a terrible fantasy QB. Terrible, yet he was a first ballot HOFer. Cam's team sucking (which was really only on one side of the ball) actually IMPROVED his fantasy numbers. When they played from behind, he was out of this world. It's when the D stepped up and they had a lead that his numbers dropped off. Your comment that he won't be any good because he team around him is bad is actually the exact opposite of your position. Cam owners can only hope the D regresses even more so that the Panthers are behind in every game. I doubt you have watched a single game he's been in and you seem to have no comprehension how the NFL and FFB actually work...

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Even during Cam's second half "swoon" after the bye week, he averaged 26.75 points from weeks 9-16. If that's his floor, I'll gladly take it. And I see no reason why he can't improve.

I feel as if Cam develops as a passer, his rushing statistics would drop. It might be bold and I know it's an unpopular statement but I think last year was his ceiling.

Disagree. I think Cam has the highest ceiling in fantasy football.

Disagree w/ your disagree because Cam's TEAM sucks.

This may be the dumbest thing I've seen in a long time on this board and that's saying something.Troy Aikman was on some pretty dominant teams. He was a terrible fantasy QB. Terrible, yet he was a first ballot HOFer. Cam's team sucking (which was really only on one side of the ball) actually IMPROVED his fantasy numbers. When they played from behind, he was out of this world. It's when the D stepped up and they had a lead that his numbers dropped off. Your comment that he won't be any good because he team around him is bad is actually the exact opposite of your position. Cam owners can only hope the D regresses even more so that the Panthers are behind in every game. I doubt you have watched a single game he's been in and you seem to have no comprehension how the NFL and FFB actually work...

I get that a worse D will make an Offense take more chances and pass. But wouldn't a better Defense set the Offense up in better field position=more Touchdown opportunities?

 

[TheFanatic]

Even during Cam's second half "swoon" after the bye week, he averaged 26.75 points from weeks 9-16. If that's his floor, I'll gladly take it. And I see no reason why he can't improve.

I feel as if Cam develops as a passer, his rushing statistics would drop. It might be bold and I know it's an unpopular statement but I think last year was his ceiling.

Disagree. I think Cam has the highest ceiling in fantasy football.

Disagree w/ your disagree because Cam's TEAM sucks.

This may be the dumbest thing I've seen in a long time on this board and that's saying something.Troy Aikman was on some pretty dominant teams. He was a terrible fantasy QB. Terrible, yet he was a first ballot HOFer. Cam's team sucking (which was really only on one side of the ball) actually IMPROVED his fantasy numbers. When they played from behind, he was out of this world. It's when the D stepped up and they had a lead that his numbers dropped off. Your comment that he won't be any good because he team around him is bad is actually the exact opposite of your position. Cam owners can only hope the D regresses even more so that the Panthers are behind in every game. I doubt you have watched a single game he's been in and you seem to have no comprehension how the NFL and FFB actually work...

I get that a worse D will make an Offense take more chances and pass. But wouldn't a better Defense set the Offense up in better field position=more Touchdown opportunities?

If the team is down, then they have to pass to get back into it. If they run down the field and score and the other team does the exact same thing the next series, then you have the makings for a shoot out. If the other team can't score, then the O will get more conservative, kicking FG's rather than going for it, running up the gut rather than taking a shot deep, etc, because they know the other team can't score.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Even during Cam's second half "swoon" after the bye week, he averaged 26.75 points from weeks 9-16. If that's his floor, I'll gladly take it. And I see no reason why he can't improve.

I feel as if Cam develops as a passer, his rushing statistics would drop. It might be bold and I know it's an unpopular statement but I think last year was his ceiling.

Disagree. I think Cam has the highest ceiling in fantasy football.

Disagree w/ your disagree because Cam's TEAM sucks.

This may be the dumbest thing I've seen in a long time on this board and that's saying something.Troy Aikman was on some pretty dominant teams. He was a terrible fantasy QB. Terrible, yet he was a first ballot HOFer. Cam's team sucking (which was really only on one side of the ball) actually IMPROVED his fantasy numbers. When they played from behind, he was out of this world. It's when the D stepped up and they had a lead that his numbers dropped off. Your comment that he won't be any good because he team around him is bad is actually the exact opposite of your position. Cam owners can only hope the D regresses even more so that the Panthers are behind in every game. I doubt you have watched a single game he's been in and you seem to have no comprehension how the NFL and FFB actually work...

I get that a worse D will make an Offense take more chances and pass. But wouldn't a better Defense set the Offense up in better field position=more Touchdown opportunities?

If the team is down, then they have to pass to get back into it. If they run down the field and score and the other team does the exact same thing the next series, then you have the makings for a shoot out. If the other team can't score, then the O will get more conservative, kicking FG's rather than going for it, running up the gut rather than taking a shot deep, etc, because they know the other team can't score.

You can have Cam in FF. Give me Rodgers, Brees, Stafford, Vick, Manning, Romo, Rivers, Manning all day over him. There is a reason his numbers dipped at the end of the year....but you can figure that out yourself genius.ETA:"Location: St. Louis", so that is why you are mad. Ok.

 

[The Gunslinger]

This is like arguing with people who thought the world is flat!

By the end of the year it will be clear to all just how round it is!!!

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Even during Cam's second half "swoon" after the bye week, he averaged 26.75 points from weeks 9-16. If that's his floor, I'll gladly take it. And I see no reason why he can't improve.

I feel as if Cam develops as a passer, his rushing statistics would drop. It might be bold and I know it's an unpopular statement but I think last year was his ceiling.

Disagree. I think Cam has the highest ceiling in fantasy football.

Disagree w/ your disagree because Cam's TEAM sucks.

This may be the dumbest thing I've seen in a long time on this board and that's saying something.Troy Aikman was on some pretty dominant teams. He was a terrible fantasy QB. Terrible, yet he was a first ballot HOFer. Cam's team sucking (which was really only on one side of the ball) actually IMPROVED his fantasy numbers. When they played from behind, he was out of this world. It's when the D stepped up and they had a lead that his numbers dropped off. Your comment that he won't be any good because he team around him is bad is actually the exact opposite of your position. Cam owners can only hope the D regresses even more so that the Panthers are behind in every game. I doubt you have watched a single game he's been in and you seem to have no comprehension how the NFL and FFB actually work...

I get that a worse D will make an Offense take more chances and pass. But wouldn't a better Defense set the Offense up in better field position=more Touchdown opportunities?

If the team is down, then they have to pass to get back into it. If they run down the field and score and the other team does the exact same thing the next series, then you have the makings for a shoot out. If the other team can't score, then the O will get more conservative, kicking FG's rather than going for it, running up the gut rather than taking a shot deep, etc, because they know the other team can't score.

In theory they will run more...but we live in a pass happy NFL. Wouldn't this make the Play Action more effective? Wouldn't Cam Newton do some of the running?I get what you're saying(I coach football) but the NFL will still pass. The only way this is really effective is if the Defenses are pitching shutouts and you don't trust your QB(Baltimore).

 

[TheFanatic]

Even during Cam's second half "swoon" after the bye week, he averaged 26.75 points from weeks 9-16. If that's his floor, I'll gladly take it. And I see no reason why he can't improve.

I feel as if Cam develops as a passer, his rushing statistics would drop. It might be bold and I know it's an unpopular statement but I think last year was his ceiling.

Disagree. I think Cam has the highest ceiling in fantasy football.

Disagree w/ your disagree because Cam's TEAM sucks.

This may be the dumbest thing I've seen in a long time on this board and that's saying something.Troy Aikman was on some pretty dominant teams. He was a terrible fantasy QB. Terrible, yet he was a first ballot HOFer. Cam's team sucking (which was really only on one side of the ball) actually IMPROVED his fantasy numbers. When they played from behind, he was out of this world. It's when the D stepped up and they had a lead that his numbers dropped off. Your comment that he won't be any good because he team around him is bad is actually the exact opposite of your position. Cam owners can only hope the D regresses even more so that the Panthers are behind in every game. I doubt you have watched a single game he's been in and you seem to have no comprehension how the NFL and FFB actually work...

I get that a worse D will make an Offense take more chances and pass. But wouldn't a better Defense set the Offense up in better field position=more Touchdown opportunities?

If the team is down, then they have to pass to get back into it. If they run down the field and score and the other team does the exact same thing the next series, then you have the makings for a shoot out. If the other team can't score, then the O will get more conservative, kicking FG's rather than going for it, running up the gut rather than taking a shot deep, etc, because they know the other team can't score.

In theory they will run more...but we live in a pass happy NFL. Wouldn't this make the Play Action more effective? Wouldn't Cam Newton do some of the running?I get what you're saying(I coach football) but the NFL will still pass. The only way this is really effective is if the Defenses are pitching shutouts and you don't trust your QB(Baltimore).

The NFL is pass happy, but at the end of the game, Panthers have the ball with 5 minutes left and up by 4, they are not passing much other than on 3rd down. Everything else will be run, run, run to kill the clock.

 

[TheFanatic]

Even during Cam's second half "swoon" after the bye week, he averaged 26.75 points from weeks 9-16. If that's his floor, I'll gladly take it. And I see no reason why he can't improve.

I feel as if Cam develops as a passer, his rushing statistics would drop. It might be bold and I know it's an unpopular statement but I think last year was his ceiling.

Disagree. I think Cam has the highest ceiling in fantasy football.

Disagree w/ your disagree because Cam's TEAM sucks.

This may be the dumbest thing I've seen in a long time on this board and that's saying something.Troy Aikman was on some pretty dominant teams. He was a terrible fantasy QB. Terrible, yet he was a first ballot HOFer. Cam's team sucking (which was really only on one side of the ball) actually IMPROVED his fantasy numbers. When they played from behind, he was out of this world. It's when the D stepped up and they had a lead that his numbers dropped off. Your comment that he won't be any good because he team around him is bad is actually the exact opposite of your position. Cam owners can only hope the D regresses even more so that the Panthers are behind in every game. I doubt you have watched a single game he's been in and you seem to have no comprehension how the NFL and FFB actually work...

I get that a worse D will make an Offense take more chances and pass. But wouldn't a better Defense set the Offense up in better field position=more Touchdown opportunities?

If the team is down, then they have to pass to get back into it. If they run down the field and score and the other team does the exact same thing the next series, then you have the makings for a shoot out. If the other team can't score, then the O will get more conservative, kicking FG's rather than going for it, running up the gut rather than taking a shot deep, etc, because they know the other team can't score.

You can have Cam in FF. Give me Rodgers, Brees, Stafford, Vick, Manning, Romo, Rivers, Manning all day over him. There is a reason his numbers dipped at the end of the year....but you can figure that out yourself genius.ETA:"Location: St. Louis", so that is why you are mad. Ok.

And none of those guys had a dip at the end of their rookie seasons? Pretty sure, fantasy wise, he blew them all away in his rookie season. And I find it odd that he beat pretty much all of those seasoned vets in his rookie campaign fantasy wise. Will there be a regression toward the mean? Maybe. But what is the mean? I can't wait to see what the kid can do with a full offseason with an NFL QB coach, something he didn't get last year. Everyone hated on the kid coming out of college and he shut all those haters up, except one it seems. I highly doubted the kid's ability when I begrudgingly drafted him in the early second round. The kid is amazing. That being said, I traded him for Rodgers and a WR this offseason. And what the hell does being from St. Louis have to do with anything? I love this city. Can we stay on topic here? You sound like a whiny little kid, "Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, well you're from St. Louis you doody head." Grow up.

 

[werdnoynek]

And none of those guys had a dip at the end of their rookie seasons? Pretty sure, fantasy wise, he blew them all away in his rookie season. And I find it odd that he beat pretty much all of those seasoned vets in his rookie campaign fantasy wise. Will there be a regression toward the mean? Maybe. But what is the mean? I can't wait to see what the kid can do with a full offseason with an NFL QB coach, something he didn't get last year. Everyone hated on the kid coming out of college and he shut all those haters up, except one it seems. I highly doubted the kid's ability when I begrudgingly drafted him in the early second round. The kid is amazing. That being said, I traded him for Rodgers and a WR this offseason. And what the hell does being from St. Louis have to do with anything? I love this city. Can we stay on topic here? You sound like a whiny little kid, "Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, well you're from St. Louis you doody head." Grow up.

pretty much all i would have added to this thread... also, the personal attacks are definitely unwarranted.

 

[lbouchard]

Even during Cam's second half "swoon" after the bye week, he averaged 26.75 points from weeks 9-16. If that's his floor, I'll gladly take it. And I see no reason why he can't improve.

I feel as if Cam develops as a passer, his rushing statistics would drop. It might be bold and I know it's an unpopular statement but I think last year was his ceiling.

Disagree. I think Cam has the highest ceiling in fantasy football.

Disagree w/ your disagree because Cam's TEAM sucks.

This may be the dumbest thing I've seen in a long time on this board and that's saying something.Troy Aikman was on some pretty dominant teams. He was a terrible fantasy QB. Terrible, yet he was a first ballot HOFer. Cam's team sucking (which was really only on one side of the ball) actually IMPROVED his fantasy numbers. When they played from behind, he was out of this world. It's when the D stepped up and they had a lead that his numbers dropped off. Your comment that he won't be any good because he team around him is bad is actually the exact opposite of your position. Cam owners can only hope the D regresses even more so that the Panthers are behind in every game. I doubt you have watched a single game he's been in and you seem to have no comprehension how the NFL and FFB actually work...

I get that a worse D will make an Offense take more chances and pass. But wouldn't a better Defense set the Offense up in better field position=more Touchdown opportunities?

If the team is down, then they have to pass to get back into it. If they run down the field and score and the other team does the exact same thing the next series, then you have the makings for a shoot out. If the other team can't score, then the O will get more conservative, kicking FG's rather than going for it, running up the gut rather than taking a shot deep, etc, because they know the other team can't score.

You can have Cam in FF. Give me Rodgers, Brees, Stafford, Vick, Manning, Romo, Rivers, Manning all day over him. There is a reason his numbers dipped at the end of the year....but you can figure that out yourself genius.ETA:"Location: St. Louis", so that is why you are mad. Ok.

Yeah, his numbers dipped. To an average of 5 ppg over the Manning/Romo/Rivers/Manning tier. LOL, get outta here.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Yeah, his numbers dipped. To an average of 5 ppg over the Manning/Romo/Rivers/Manning tier. LOL, get outta here.

What price will you pay this season for that drop in production? You are going to pay more than you will get out of Newton this year. Currently he is going as QB4 pick #17....to rich for my blood, you are paying for the first 8 games he played (which he won't repeat). Too rich especially when QB 8 is going around pick #60. His ceiling is pick #17 type value...... pay for that and you might as well be done with FF for the year.

 

[unckeyherb]

Yeah, his numbers dipped. To an average of 5 ppg over the Manning/Romo/Rivers/Manning tier. LOL, get outta here.

What price will you pay this season for that drop in production? You are going to pay more than you will get out of Newton this year. Currently he is going as QB4 pick #17....to rich for my blood. Especially when QB 8 is going around pick #60.

So to be clear..you don't disagree that he will put up top 4 QB numbers-ahead of your Mannings/Romo/Rivers crowd; you just wouldn't draft a QB early when you can get a decent option much later? So your comment about 'giving you Rodgers, Brees, Stafford, Vick, Manning, Romo, Rivers, Manning all day over him' really only applies to the last half of that statement as you'll get similar production to Rodgers/Brees/Stafford but have to pay similarly for it? Right?

 

[hotboyz]

All this arguing back and forth is kind if childish what made him so valuable last yr as well as Stafford( I had both of them and traded stafford in week 3 for fitz and Matthews championship!) wad where u were able to draft him I got Staffird in 6th rd and cam on waivers after wk 1. I believe Cam is a once and a lifetime player like Randy Moss rookie season but I also believe his rushing tds will go down that's why they picked up mike Tolbert! I would love to have Cam but are u willing to spend a top 5 pick on him? That's oing against what won me a title them I look around and wonder if there's any QB that could jump up out of the middle rds. I see one such player Jay Cutler I'm leaning towards going that way just don't wanna draft a QB in the Top 5

 

[TheFanatic]

All this arguing back and forth is kind if childish what made him so valuable last yr as well as Stafford( I had both of them and traded stafford in week 3 for fitz and Matthews championship!) wad where u were able to draft him I got Staffird in 6th rd and cam on waivers after wk 1. I believe Cam is a once and a lifetime player like Randy Moss rookie season but I also believe his rushing tds will go down that's why they picked up mike Tolbert! I would love to have Cam but are u willing to spend a top 5 pick on him? That's oing against what won me a title them I look around and wonder if there's any QB that could jump up out of the middle rds. I see one such player Jay Cutler I'm leaning towards going that way just don't wanna draft a QB in the Top 5

Whole lot of assumptions in here that we all play redraft leagues. I haven't done a redraft in almost 10 years.

 

[hotboyz]

Yea u are right I should of included redraft in my post

 

[pantherclub]

Yeah, his numbers dipped. To an average of 5 ppg over the Manning/Romo/Rivers/Manning tier. LOL, get outta here.

What price will you pay this season for that drop in production? You are going to pay more than you will get out of Newton this year. Currently he is going as QB4 pick #17....to rich for my blood, you are paying for the first 8 games he played (which he won't repeat). Too rich especially when QB 8 is going around pick #60. His ceiling is pick #17 type value...... pay for that and you might as well be done with FF for the year.

Your argument makes no sense.

 

[SWC]

my nickname for cam newton is zues destroyer of legions because he is beast from the depths of the ocean who do more than probably any other qb ever in the history of the league is can run like vick because he has the moves like jagger and can throw it like he is aaron rogers he is deadly accurate on the long ball like he is shooting a bow at hunger game monsters so basically his upside is incredible and zues destoryer of legions will take the league by storm this year take that to the bank brosieden king of the ocean

 

[ImTheScientist]

Yeah, his numbers dipped. To an average of 5 ppg over the Manning/Romo/Rivers/Manning tier. LOL, get outta here.

What price will you pay this season for that drop in production? You are going to pay more than you will get out of Newton this year. Currently he is going as QB4 pick #17....to rich for my blood. Especially when QB 8 is going around pick #60.

So to be clear..you don't disagree that he will put up top 4 QB numbers-ahead of your Mannings/Romo/Rivers crowd; you just wouldn't draft a QB early when you can get a decent option much later? So your comment about 'giving you Rodgers, Brees, Stafford, Vick, Manning, Romo, Rivers, Manning all day over him' really only applies to the last half of that statement as you'll get similar production to Rodgers/Brees/Stafford but have to pay similarly for it? Right?

I don't think he will put up top 4 fantasy QB numbers..... 6-12 range is probably where I would put him with him likely being around 8. I believe he is being overdrafted and that is why I would take those QBs all day over him. If you want to ignore fantasy he is an average QB currently, but a great runner/athlete. He's exciting and I understand the enthusiasm...it was the same for Vick years ago. If I was starting an NFL franchise I would take Rodgers, Brees, Stafford, Manning over him.Are we clear?

 

[bonesman]

If you want to ignore fantasy he is an average QB currently, but a great runner/athlete.

Really?.... an "average" QB broke Manning's rookie passing yardage record? Only took him 16 games too... and no offseason. Astonishing feat.

 

[unckeyherb]

Yeah, his numbers dipped. To an average of 5 ppg over the Manning/Romo/Rivers/Manning tier. LOL, get outta here.

What price will you pay this season for that drop in production? You are going to pay more than you will get out of Newton this year. Currently he is going as QB4 pick #17....to rich for my blood. Especially when QB 8 is going around pick #60.

So to be clear..you don't disagree that he will put up top 4 QB numbers-ahead of your Mannings/Romo/Rivers crowd; you just wouldn't draft a QB early when you can get a decent option much later? So your comment about 'giving you Rodgers, Brees, Stafford, Vick, Manning, Romo, Rivers, Manning all day over him' really only applies to the last half of that statement as you'll get similar production to Rodgers/Brees/Stafford but have to pay similarly for it? Right?

I don't think he will put up top 4 fantasy QB numbers..... 6-12 range is probably where I would put him with him likely being around 8. I believe he is being overdrafted and that is why I would take those QBs all day over him. If you want to ignore fantasy he is an average QB currently, but a great runner/athlete. He's exciting and I understand the enthusiasm...it was the same for Vick years ago. If I was starting an NFL franchise I would take Rodgers, Brees, Stafford, Manning over him.Are we clear?

I'm not sure why you would ignore fantasy when discussing fantasy. I'm not sure how you can justify calling a qb that broke numerous qb records as a rook 'average'. Not sure why you think his production will drop-in definitely don't buy your theory that he wont score well due to being on a bad team because a.) He was on the team last year and put up huge numbers and b.) Bad teams routinely produce fantasy stars. So not clear except that maybe you just want to stir the pot. I find it interesting though, that your list of qbs you would take over him transformed to not include romo/eli/rivers but only MVP caliber qbs peyton /brees/rodgers...I think its clear how off you are on this topic.

 

[lbouchard]

my nickname for cam newton is zues destroyer of legions because he is beast from the depths of the ocean who do more than probably any other qb ever in the history of the league is can run like vick because he has the moves like jagger and can throw it like he is aaron rogers he is deadly accurate on the long ball like he is shooting a bow at hunger game monsters so basically his upside is incredible and zues destoryer of legions will take the league by storm this year take that to the bank brosieden king of the ocean

thank you for this laugh

 

[ImTheScientist]

I don't think he will put up top 4 fantasy QB numbers..... 6-12 range is probably where I would put him with him likely being around 8. I believe he is being overdrafted and that is why I would take those QBs all day over him. If you want to ignore fantasy he is an average QB currently, but a great runner/athlete. He's exciting and I understand the enthusiasm...it was the same for Vick years ago. If I was starting an NFL franchise I would take Rodgers, Brees, Stafford, Manning over him.Are we clear?

I'm not sure why you would ignore fantasy when discussing fantasy. I'm not sure how you can justify calling a qb that broke numerous qb records as a rook 'average'. Not sure why you think his production will drop-in definitely don't buy your theory that he wont score well due to being on a bad team because a.) He was on the team last year and put up huge numbers and b.) Bad teams routinely produce fantasy stars. So not clear except that maybe you just want to stir the pot. I find it interesting though, that your list of qbs you would take over him transformed to not include romo/eli/rivers but only MVP caliber qbs peyton /brees/rodgers...I think its clear how off you are on this topic.

I gave both a fantasy football scenario and non-fantasy football scenario...so I didn't ignore fantasy, you just didn't comprehend correctly. Read the post again, and report back.

 

[massraider]

How many QBs peaked their rookie year? The guy is gonna be like having Young or Warner back in the day. If you got him, you gotta mess up to not get in the playoffs. Only injury can hold him back. This thread has future bump written all over it.

 

[ImTheScientist]

How many QBs peaked their rookie year?

Rick Mirer

 

[unckeyherb]

I don't think he will put up top 4 fantasy QB numbers..... 6-12 range is probably where I would put him with him likely being around 8. I believe he is being overdrafted and that is why I would take those QBs all day over him. If you want to ignore fantasy he is an average QB currently, but a great runner/athlete. He's exciting and I understand the enthusiasm...it was the same for Vick years ago. If I was starting an NFL franchise I would take Rodgers, Brees, Stafford, Manning over him.Are we clear?

I'm not sure why you would ignore fantasy when discussing fantasy. I'm not sure how you can justify calling a qb that broke numerous qb records as a rook 'average'. Not sure why you think his production will drop-in definitely don't buy your theory that he wont score well due to being on a bad team because a.) He was on the team last year and put up huge numbers and b.) Bad teams routinely produce fantasy stars. So not clear except that maybe you just want to stir the pot. I find it interesting though, that your list of qbs you would take over him transformed to not include romo/eli/rivers but only MVP caliber qbs peyton /brees/rodgers...I think its clear how off you are on this topic.

I gave both a fantasy football scenario and non-fantasy football scenario...so I didn't ignore fantasy, you just didn't comprehend correctly. Read the post again, and report back.

"If you want to ignore fantasy he is an average QB currently, but a great runner/athlete." is this not your quote? You didn't give a 'scenario' regarding fantasy. You simply said you don't think he will put up top 4 numbers. I'll concede that it definitely is possible for him to drop out of the top 4 from last year-but I also think its just as possible that he finishes as the #1 QB in Fantasy Football. Of the 8 guys you listed above (Rodgers, Brees, Stafford, Vick, Manning, Romo, Rivers, Manning) I could only see Rodgers and Stafford and maybe Brees with that kind of potential. And you will have to take them at or before Cam, so I don't get your argument. Sure you can wait a round or two to grab Romo, but you obviously are sacrificing production and potentially huge production. Sky's the limit with Cam-I still haven't seen a reason for your assertion that he is an average QB, or that he will have such a big drop-off in production.

 

[The Gunslinger]

Yeah, his numbers dipped. To an average of 5 ppg over the Manning/Romo/Rivers/Manning tier. LOL, get outta here.

What price will you pay this season for that drop in production? You are going to pay more than you will get out of Newton this year. Currently he is going as QB4 pick #17....to rich for my blood. Especially when QB 8 is going around pick #60.

So to be clear..you don't disagree that he will put up top 4 QB numbers-ahead of your Mannings/Romo/Rivers crowd; you just wouldn't draft a QB early when you can get a decent option much later? So your comment about 'giving you Rodgers, Brees, Stafford, Vick, Manning, Romo, Rivers, Manning all day over him' really only applies to the last half of that statement as you'll get similar production to Rodgers/Brees/Stafford but have to pay similarly for it? Right?

I don't think he will put up top 4 fantasy QB numbers..... 6-12 range is probably where I would put him with him likely being around 8. I believe he is being overdrafted and that is why I would take those QBs all day over him. If you want to ignore fantasy he is an average QB currently, but a great runner/athlete. He's exciting and I understand the enthusiasm...it was the same for Vick years ago. If I was starting an NFL franchise I would take Rodgers, Brees, Stafford, Manning over him.Are we clear?

We are clear that Newton had consensual sex with your wife or girlfriend, video taped it, and you just watched it. If, huge if, you are right that Newton is "average" in 2012, I hate to disappoint you but you won't get a spot on the FBG podcast for being the only "genius" that new Cam truly sucked!When, small when, he dominates in 2012, you will recede into the depths of the shark pool and bottom feed until you think everyone won't remember you and you start spouting off next year. Just like last year when this thread was titled "why Cam Newton will bust in the NFL" and all his detractors vanished from the thread by week 3. Just accept what your eyes see and stop being mad because your son looks a lot lIke the QB for the Panthers!St. Louis Rocks as far as I'm concerned though I've never been there.......

 

[ImTheScientist]

"If you want to ignore fantasy he is an average QB currently, but a great runner/athlete." is this not your quote? You didn't give a 'scenario' regarding fantasy. You simply said you don't think he will put up top 4 numbers.

Maybe this will help. I broke it into two sections for you. Im don't think there's anything more I can do to help.FANTASY FOOTBALL- HOW HE WILL DO IN FANTASY FOOTBALL THIS YEAR

I don't think he will put up top 4 fantasy QB numbers..... 6-12 range is probably where I would put him with him likely being around 8. I believe he is being overdrafted and that is why I would take those QBs all day over him.

NON-FANTASTY FOOTBALL

- HOW HE WILL DO THIS YEAR IRL

If you want to ignore fantasy he is an average QB currently, but a great runner/athlete. He's exciting and I understand the enthusiasm...it was the same for Vick years ago. If I was starting an NFL franchise I would take Rodgers, Brees, Stafford, Manning over him.

Are we clear?

 

[pantherclub]

Yeah, his numbers dipped. To an average of 5 ppg over the Manning/Romo/Rivers/Manning tier. LOL, get outta here.

What price will you pay this season for that drop in production? You are going to pay more than you will get out of Newton this year. Currently he is going as QB4 pick #17....to rich for my blood. Especially when QB 8 is going around pick #60.

So to be clear..you don't disagree that he will put up top 4 QB numbers-ahead of your Mannings/Romo/Rivers crowd; you just wouldn't draft a QB early when you can get a decent option much later? So your comment about 'giving you Rodgers, Brees, Stafford, Vick, Manning, Romo, Rivers, Manning all day over him' really only applies to the last half of that statement as you'll get similar production to Rodgers/Brees/Stafford but have to pay similarly for it? Right?

I don't think he will put up top 4 fantasy QB numbers..... 6-12 range is probably where I would put him with him likely being around 8. I believe he is being overdrafted and that is why I would take those QBs all day over him. If you want to ignore fantasy he is an average QB currently, but a great runner/athlete. He's exciting and I understand the enthusiasm...it was the same for Vick years ago. If I was starting an NFL franchise I would take Rodgers, Brees, Stafford, Manning over him.

Are we clear?

LOL at average.

Do yourself a favor and look up whose rookie record he just beat and check back with us. You are making yourself look foolish here.

 

[lbouchard]

How many QBs peaked their rookie year?

Rick Mirer

Rick Mirer couldn't throw to his left at all. Newton has no such obvious flaws

 

[ImTheScientist]

Do yourself a favor and look up whose rookie record he just beat and check back with us. You are making yourself look foolish here.

He needs to cut down on the 17 INTS and had needs to have a higher completion percentage before he's more than average as a QB. He's an excellent runner. But as a passer .... just average. Its cool that he broke a rookie yardage record but that doesn't mean he's a good QB. The passing part of his game is clearly just average right now.Cam was 18th in the NFL in completion percentage, 15th in QB rating. For reference TJax had a better completion percentage than Cam....and TJax is just average.http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/completionPctA link for you to enjoy.lol u...Please let me know where you rank him as a passer? I'd be interested.

 

[werdnoynek]

Do yourself a favor and look up whose rookie record he just beat and check back with us. You are making yourself look foolish here.

He needs to cut down on the 17 INTS and had needs to have a higher completion percentage before he's more than average as a QB. He's an excellent runner. But as a passer .... just average. Its cool that he broke a rookie yardage record but that doesn't mean he's a good QB. The passing part of his game is clearly just average right now.Cam was 18th in the NFL in completion percentage, 15th in QB rating. For reference TJax had a better completion percentage than Cam....and TJax is just average.http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/completionPctA link for you to enjoy.lol u...Please let me know where you rank him as a passer? I'd be interested.

it's amazing how hard you're working to downplay his record breaking rookie season. record breaking does not equal average and to think he is never going to improve on that rookie season at 23 years of age, imo, you're delusional. how about trying to compare his rookie numbers to other nfl rookie numbers... not someone who's been in the league for 7 years. i'll just leave these here...Rookie RecordsMost passing yards by a rookie in a game (432), September 18, 2011 vs. Green Bay PackersMost passing yards by a rookie in a season (4,051), 2011First rookie in NFL history to pass for more than 400 yards in back to back games, September 11, 2011 vs. Arizona Cardinals and September 18, 2011 vs. Green Bay PackersFirst rookie in NFL history to throw for 10 touchdowns and run for 10 touchdowns in a season.Fourth rookie quarterback to throw for 3,000 yards in a season.Third most pass TDs (21) in a rookie season.Most total touchdowns by a rookie NFL player: 35 (21 pass, 14 rush).Most rushing yards by a rookie quarterback: 706Most rushing touchdowns by a rookie quarterback: 14Along with Andy Dalton, the two make the first pair of rookie QB's to make the Pro BowlOther RecordsMost passing yards by a quarterback in debut game (422), September 11, 2011 vs. Arizona CardinalsMost passing yards by a quarterback in first two games (854), September 11, 2011 vs. Arizona Cardinals and September 18, 2011 vs Green Bay PackersFirst quarterback in NFL history to pass for more than 400 yards in first career start, September 11, 2011 vs. Arizona CardinalsSixth quarterback to throw for 400+ yards in back to back gamesFirst quarterback in NFL history to pass for more than 400 yards in first two career starts, September 11, 2011 vs. Arizona Cardinals and September 18, 2011 vs. Green Bay PackersFastest player to throw for 1,000 yards (at Arizona Cardinals, vs Green Bay Packers, and vs Jacksonville Jaguars).First player in NFL history with at least five rushing touchdowns and five passing touchdowns in his first five gamesMost rushing touchdowns in single season by a quarterback (14), achieved on December 4, 2011 vs Tampa Bay Buccaneers.Second player in NFL history with 20+ pass TDs and 10+ rush TDs in a season, Joining Kordell Stewart ('97).First player in NFL history with 4,000+ pass yards and 10+ rush TDs in a season.First player in NFL history with 4,000+ pass yards and 500+ rush yards in a season.Had a passing touchdown and a rushing touchdown in the same game eight times, tying the NFL single-season record - previously. accomplished by Steve Grogan of the New England Patriots in 1976 and Daunte Culpepper of the Minnesota Vikings in 2002.average... LOL

 

[TheFanatic]

So far all we have is a gut feeling by some guy who thinks a guy shattering the rookie record of Manning is average. And his reasoning so far that he will go from that to average is that the team around him sucks.

This is like trying to make sense out of a Picasso. The mindset here is a convoluted mess... Time to move on. The guy just doesn't get it or is trolling or both...

 

[werdnoynek]

So far all we have is a gut feeling by some guy who thinks a guy shattering the rookie record of Manning is average. And his reasoning so far that he will go from that to average is that the team around him sucks. This is like trying to make sense out of a Picasso. The mindset here is a convoluted mess... Time to move on. The guy just doesn't get it or is trolling or both...

 

[ImTheScientist]

Do yourself a favor and look up whose rookie record he just beat and check back with us. You are making yourself look foolish here.

He needs to cut down on the 17 INTS and had needs to have a higher completion percentage before he's more than average as a QB. He's an excellent runner. But as a passer .... just average. Its cool that he broke a rookie yardage record but that doesn't mean he's a good QB. The passing part of his game is clearly just average right now.Cam was 18th in the NFL in completion percentage, 15th in QB rating. For reference TJax had a better completion percentage than Cam....and TJax is just average.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/completionPct

A link for you to enjoy.

lol u...

Please let me know where you rank him as a passer? I'd be interested.

how about trying to compare his rookie numbers to other nfl rookie numbers... not someone who's been in the league for 7 years.

One of the best rookie seasons ... no doubt... but unless he improves that won't move him to the upper echelon of NFL passers. So again, "He needs to cut down on the 17 INTS and had needs to have a higher completion percentage before he's more than average as a QB. He's an excellent runner."

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Do yourself a favor and look up whose rookie record he just beat and check back with us. You are making yourself look foolish here.

He needs to cut down on the 17 INTS and had needs to have a higher completion percentage before he's more than average as a QB. He's an excellent runner. But as a passer .... just average. Its cool that he broke a rookie yardage record but that doesn't mean he's a good QB. The passing part of his game is clearly just average right now.Cam was 18th in the NFL in completion percentage, 15th in QB rating. For reference TJax had a better completion percentage than Cam....and TJax is just average.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/completionPct

A link for you to enjoy.

lol u...

Please let me know where you rank him as a passer? I'd be interested.

how about trying to compare his rookie numbers to other nfl rookie numbers... not someone who's been in the league for 7 years.

One of the best rookie seasons ... no doubt... but unless he improves that won't move him to the upper echelon of NFL passers. So again, "He needs to cut down on the 17 INTS and had needs to have a higher completion percentage before he's more than average as a QB. He's an excellent runner."

Greg Cosell was very impressed by Cam's pocket presence/awareness and skills in his rookie year. I didn't like Cam coming out of college, but after looking more into him...i'm impressed. He needs more WR's around him...but I think his future is bright and he will develop.

 

[werdnoynek]

Do yourself a favor and look up whose rookie record he just beat and check back with us. You are making yourself look foolish here.

He needs to cut down on the 17 INTS and had needs to have a higher completion percentage before he's more than average as a QB. He's an excellent runner. But as a passer .... just average. Its cool that he broke a rookie yardage record but that doesn't mean he's a good QB. The passing part of his game is clearly just average right now.Cam was 18th in the NFL in completion percentage, 15th in QB rating. For reference TJax had a better completion percentage than Cam....and TJax is just average.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/completionPct

A link for you to enjoy.

lol u...

Please let me know where you rank him as a passer? I'd be interested.

how about trying to compare his rookie numbers to other nfl rookie numbers... not someone who's been in the league for 7 years.

One of the best rookie seasons ... no doubt... but unless he improves that won't move him to the upper echelon of NFL passers. So again, "He needs to cut down on the 17 INTS and had needs to have a higher completion percentage before he's more than average as a QB. He's an excellent runner."

well at least we've moved past the average title...

 

[floods]

One of the best rookie seasons ... no doubt... but unless he improves that won't move him to the upper echelon of NFL passers. So again, "He needs to cut down on the 17 INTS and had needs to have a higher completion percentage before he's more than average as a QB. He's an excellent runner."

It was the greatest rookie season of any player at any position in the history of the NFL. In a year with no camp. At the hardest position.You can nitpick all you want, but what you're saying is the equivalent of, "Sure, Randy Moss had one of the best rookie seasons, but I'm not sold until I see him do it again next season." The absurdity of your statements is astounding to the point that it's obvious that you're trolling (and doing decently well).