Can you be insensitive and not be an "-ist"? (1 Viewer)

[adonis]

It seems common in today's culture for folks to be quick to the trigger of calling people who are insensitive an "-ist".  

Dress up in blackface, you 100% have to be a racist.

Don't want to call people by their preferred gender pronouns, you're some kind of -phobic.

Call a black person eloquent - a ticket straight to being called a racist.

Discuss data-backed gender preferences, and you're a misogynist.

Is it possible anymore to have an opinion on these subject that don't make you an "-ist?"

For example, i think a 25 year old from the 1980's could dress in blackface and not necessarily be a racist.  I'm probably setting myself up for a world of hurt for admitting this, but there it is.

I believe that folks can be uncomfortable using people's preferred gender pronouns without being some kind of phobic.

I believe that using the word eloquent to describe a black person doesn't necessarily make it a racist statement.

It feels like at some public level, we've lost our collective ####### minds.

 

[squistion]

It seems common in today's culture for folks to be quick to the trigger of calling people who are insensitive an "-ist".  

Dress up in blackface, you 100% have to be a racist.

For example, i think a 25 year old from the 1980's could dress in blackface and not necessarily be a racist.  I'm probably setting myself up for a world of hurt for admitting this, but there it is.

Yes, they would not necessarily be a racist, but they shouldn't have been so clueless as to not know that it would be found to be offensive to some people.

 

[adonis]

Yes, they would not necessarily be a racist, but they shouldn't have been so clueless as to not know that it would be found to be offensive to some people.

It's a funny concept to blame the clueless for being clueless.

 

[IC FBGCav]

It seems common in today's culture for folks to be quick to the trigger of calling people who are insensitive an "-ist".  

Dress up in blackface, you 100% have to be a racist.

Don't want to call people by their preferred gender pronouns, you're some kind of -phobic.

Call a black person eloquent - a ticket straight to being called a racist.

Discuss data-backed gender preferences, and you're a misogynist.

Is it possible anymore to have an opinion on these subject that don't make you an "-ist?"

For example, i think a 25 year old from the 1980's could dress in blackface and not necessarily be a racist.  I'm probably setting myself up for a world of hurt for admitting this, but there it is.

I believe that folks can be uncomfortable using people's preferred gender pronouns without being some kind of phobic.

I believe that using the word eloquent to describe a black person doesn't necessarily make it a racist statement.

It feels like at some public level, we've lost our collective ####### minds.

You can discuss all that face to face.  You can't do it with typed words.  Hence being a human.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I believe that using the word eloquent to describe a black person doesn't necessarily make it a racist statement.

I thought articulate was the word that was racist? Now eloquent is too? 

 

[adonis]

I thought articulate was the word that was racist? Now eloquent is too? 

I think if you imply a black person speaks good...you're suspect of making racist comments.  

I dunno, too often I see folks having to tapdance through conversations, avoiding certain subjects, phrases, adjectives even if they're intended goodly.

And in addition to that, we're retroactively applying today's societal values to pictures from decades ago.  God help us all.

 

[IC FBGCav]

I think if you imply a black person speaks good...you're suspect of making racist comments.  

I dunno, too often I see folks having to tapdance through conversations, avoiding certain subjects, phrases, adjectives even if they're intended goodly.

And in addition to that, we're retroactively applying today's societal values to pictures from decades ago.  God help us all.

Do you think white pepole use the "N" word often?

 

[AAABatteries]

“Speaks good”??

*This post doesn’t make me a vocabulary elitist, it just makes me an #######.

 

[timschochet]

People always accuse me of calling them a racist. It’s almost never true. 95% of the time, I call actions racist. All sorts of non-racist people, including me, commit racist thoughts or racist actions. The more blatant ones need to be called out and criticized or condemned, but that still rarely makes the person a racist. 

So this applies to blackface- wearing blackface is a racist act. It should be condemned. But it doesn’t necessarily make you a racist person. That would require a pattern of deliberate behavior rather than incident. 

 

[IC FBGCav]

People always accuse me of calling them a racist. It’s almost never true. 95% of the time, I call actions racist. All sorts of non-racist people, including me, commit racist thoughts or racist actions. The more blatant ones need to be called out and criticized or condemned, but that still rarely makes the person a racist. 

So this applies to blackface- wearing blackface is a racist act. It should be condemned. But it doesn’t necessarily make you a racist person. That would require a pattern of deliberate behavior rather than incident. 

When is the last time in person you heard a white person use the N word in a racist way?

 

[adonis]

“Speaks good”??

*This post doesn’t make me a vocabulary elitist, it just makes me an #######.

Was trying to joke around being articulate.  I have attended the Zoolander school for kids who can't read good.

 

[timschochet]

When is the last time in person you heard a white person use the N word in a racist way?

A few months ago. 

 

[adonis]

People always accuse me of calling them a racist. It’s almost never true. 95% of the time, I call actions racist. All sorts of non-racist people, including me, commit racist thoughts or racist actions. The more blatant ones need to be called out and criticized or condemned, but that still rarely makes the person a racist. 

So this applies to blackface- wearing blackface is a racist act. It should be condemned. But it doesn’t necessarily make you a racist person. That would require a pattern of deliberate behavior rather than incident. 

I'm not saying i'm right here, but I've always had an issue understanding how an action or comment can be racist, without the intention behind it being racist.  

 

[AAABatteries]

So this applies to blackface- wearing blackface is a racist act. It should be condemned. But it doesn’t necessarily make you a racist person. That would require a pattern of deliberate behavior rather than incident. 

Given its history it’s something that should avoided but I stop short of calling it a racist act - I think for it to be definitively a racist act there has to be intent.  So, it can be a racist act and probably in reality is most of the time.

 

[IC FBGCav]

A few months ago. 

What did you say to them?

 

[timschochet]

I'm not saying i'm right here, but I've always had an issue understanding how an action or comment can be racist, without the intention behind it being racist.  

Well two points: 

1. Let me offer an example: President Trump says that illegal immigrants who come over the border are rapists and murderers. You hear that, and believe it to be true, and say so. Your comment is, IMO, a racist comment based on ignorance and false information. But because you believe it to be true, you’re not knowingly being racist, that was not your intent. 

2. Even so, you can make a racist comment, KNOW it to be a racist comment, and still not be a racist. One moment of bad behavior does not define you. Necessarily. 

 

[timschochet]

What did you say to them?

One of my tenants so I had to tread lightly. I think I smiled and said “that’s a poor choice of words; please don’t use that word around me.”, or something to that effect. 

 

[squistion]

It's a funny concept to blame the clueless for being clueless.

No, there are some things you should have known in 1984, like wearing blackface would be offensive to some people. People can be blamed for being willfully ignorant.

 

[AAABatteries]

I'm not saying i'm right here, but I've always had an issue understanding how an action or comment can be racist, without the intention behind it being racist.  

Exactly - there’s all kinds of things that real racists do that I, as a non-racist do too - grocery shopping, driving a car, read a book.  Then there’s things that racists do that are racist acts because of their intent but they still aren’t racist acts if I do them.  Let’s take a silly example - eating at McDonalds - he might not eat there because there’s an African American working there - I don’t eat there because their food sucks and is unhealthy.

 

[adonis]

Well two points: 

1. Let me offer an example: President Trump says that illegal immigrants who come over the border are rapists and murderers. You hear that, and believe it to be true, and say so. Your comment is, IMO, a racist comment based on ignorance and false information. But because you believe it to be true, you’re not knowingly being racist, that was not your intent. 

2. Even so, you can make a racist comment, KNOW it to be a racist comment, and still not be a racist. One moment of bad behavior does not define you. Necessarily. 

So you can be an accidental racist?

See, that just doesn't make sense to me.

You can be accidentally insensitive...which makes perfect sense.  But an accidental racist?

 

[IC FBGCav]

One of my tenants so I had to tread lightly. I think I smiled and said “that’s a poor choice of words; please don’t use that word around me.”, or something to that effect. 

 Love to hear the context on this.  

 

[timschochet]

 I think for it to be definitively a racist act there has to be intent.  

Here we disagree. I would go so far as to argue that the majority of racist acts are committed without racist intent.

 

[adonis]

It's a funny concept to blame the clueless for being clueless.

No, there are some things you should have known in 1984, like wearing blackface would be offensive to some people. People can be blamed for being willfully ignorant.

I guess my point is that if you're clueless, it's because you don't know things.  But yet you're blaming someone who is clueless for not knowing things.

You can say that someone shouldn't be clueless, that they should know, in 1984 that dressing in blackface in the deep south is inappropriate, but I guarantee you that you'd be surprised at how many "clueless" folks there are out there on this issue.

Folks who were in white culture, with nearly 100% white friends, at parties trying to be clever or impress folks or stand out, this kinda stuff wasn't all that uncommon in the south.  I'd say most of the time it was done out of an insensitivity, rather than overt racism.  

 

[AAABatteries]

Here we disagree. I would go so far as to argue that the majority of racist acts are committed without racist intent.

Care to give some examples?

We may be talking past each other here but I’m with Adonis - an act is an act and has to have intent behind it to make it a racist act.

 

[timschochet]

So you can be an accidental racist?

See, that just doesn't make sense to me.

You can be accidentally insensitive...which makes perfect sense.  But an accidental racist?

No. You can’t be an accidental racist. That’s why I made the distinction. You can commit a racist act without being a racist. To be a racist you need to know it and act deliberately and consistently over time. 

 

[IC FBGCav]

One of my tenants so I had to tread lightly. I think I smiled and said “that’s a poor choice of words; please don’t use that word around me.”, or something to that effect. 

Don't get me wrong with the context thing, it seems I am the only person that lived in the north and the south to here it spoken on FBG.

Somewhat regularly.

 

[adonis]

No. You can’t be an accidental racist. That’s why I made the distinction. You can commit a racist act without being a racist. To be a racist you need to know it and act deliberately and consistently over time. 

So racist acts can be committed by non racists?

Can you give an example of such a racist act committed by a non-racist?

 

[AAABatteries]

I think I would amend my statement to say the vast majority of acts are just acts.  I could make up some silly examples that would be racist no matter what I guess but black face wouldn’t be one of them. 

 

[timschochet]

Care to give some examples?

We may be talking past each other here but I’m with Adonis - an act is an act and has to have intent behind it to make it a racist act.

Sure. 

Let me offer a historical example: Plessey vs Ferguson. You k is that decision, it justified segregation for several generations. It’s principle was “separate but equal”- the writers did not believe they were discriminating against blacks. 

 

[AAABatteries]

So racist acts can be committed by non racists?

Can you give an example of such a racist act committed by a non-racist?

Yeah, I’m waiting for Tim’s examples as I’m not sure how that works either.

 

[timschochet]

So racist acts can be committed by non racists?

Can you give an example of such a racist act committed by a non-racist?

I think of dozens actually. Remember when Reggie White said Japanese people are so smart they can run a television into a watch? He thought he was being complimentary. Actually he was engaging in a racial stereotype. But that was not his intent. 

 

[AAABatteries]

Sure. 

Let me offer a historical example: Plessey vs Ferguson. You k is that decision, it justified segregation for several generations. It’s principle was “separate but equal”- the writers did not believe they were discriminating against blacks. 

Are you saying you think their decision (intent) was non-racist or that they just believed it to be non-racist?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I think everyone is an -ist of some sort.

If you’re not any other kind of -ist whatsoever, you’re probably a nonconformist.

 

[AAABatteries]

I think of dozens actually. Remember when Reggie White said Japanese people are so smart they can run a television into a watch? He thought he was being complimentary. Actually he was engaging in a racial stereotype. But that was not his intent. 

Right - but if a Japanese person said it how could it possibly be a racist act?  Especially if the person was being serious.  

 

[timschochet]

I can think of plenty of others. I would argue that the majority of people who fear illegal immigrants have subconscious racist feelings about Latinos but don’t believe they have them. I would further argue that the majority of people who, whenever there is a controversial police shooting of a black person, automatically side with the police, have subconscious racist feelings against blacks, but don’t believe they have them. And so on. 

 

[timschochet]

Are you saying you think their decision (intent) was non-racist or that they just believed it to be non-racist?

What’s the difference? Either way the intent wasn’t there.

 

[timschochet]

Right - but if a Japanese person said it how could it possibly be a racist act?  Especially if the person was being serious.  

I can’t answer that. Certainly people do make stereotyped comments about their own race from time to time. 

 

[Da Guru]

I think of dozens actually. Remember when Reggie White said Japanese people are so smart they can run a television into a watch? He thought he was being complimentary. Actually he was engaging in a racial stereotype. But that was not his intent. 

Reggie said more that that..I think he covered just about every race and religion in that speech.

 

[timschochet]

Reggie said more that that..I think he covered just about every race and religion in that speech.

Right. But I’m not sure anything he said was deliberately offensive. It was offensive to be sure, but I don’t think he knew it. 

 

[Da Guru]

Right. But I’m not sure anything he said was deliberately offensive. It was offensive to be sure, but I don’t think he knew it. 

I agree..but imagine that same speech today?  You would think it was a skit from SNL

I also think many people get unfairly labeled for a remark. Some recover, some not. White would not go over big in the gay community.

HOMOSEXUALITY IS a sin, and the plight of gays and lesbians should not be compared to that of blacks, White told lawmakers.

"Homosexuality is a decision, it's not a race," White said. "People from all different ethnic backgrounds live in this lifestyle. But people from all different ethnic backgrounds also are liars and cheaters and malicious and back-stabbing."

White said he has thought about why God created different races. Each race has certain gifts, he said.

Blacks are gifted at worship and celebration, White said.

"If you go to a black church, you see people jumping up and down because they really get into it," he said.

Whites are good at organization, White said.

"You guys do a good job of building businesses and things of that nature, and you know how to tap into money," he said.

"Hispanics were gifted in family structure, and you can see a Hispanic person, and they can put 20, 30 people in one home."

THE JAPANESE AND other Asians are inventive, and "can turn a television into a watch," White said. Indians are gifted in spirituality, he said.

 

[Sheriff Bart]

I'm a pionist. 

 

[AAABatteries]

What’s the difference? Either way the intent wasn’t there.

I was just trying to understand what you meant.

 

[The Narrator]

I think we make a mistake when we define racism by how someone *feels* about the act they commit rather than the act they commit. 

It doesn't matter what someone thinks about it - if they do racist ####, then they're doing racist ####. 

 

[adonis]

I can’t answer that. Certainly people do make stereotyped comments about their own race from time to time. 

Are stereotypes necessarily racist, or can they just be racially insensitive?

To me, racism needs to have an edge of racial superiority, with an intent to say one race is better than another.

If an action, or comment, or thought even doesn't have that hallmark, at least initially to me it's not racist.  It can be other things, primarily insensitive, ignorant, stereotypical, callous...but not necessarily racist.

 

[adonis]

I'm a pionist. 

Kinda like a pianist?

 

[AAABatteries]

I can’t answer that. Certainly people do make stereotyped comments about their own race from time to time. 

So you agree that the act isn’t racist in this example then?

Again, I think we are kind of talking past each other.

 

[adonis]

So can a person make them selves up in blackface and not be a racist, and not intend for the action to be a racist action?

Does intent even matter anymore?

And maybe moreso, does a person's self-stated intent matter, more than the projected intent folks say they have?

 

[AAABatteries]

I think we make a mistake when we define racism by how someone *feels* about the act they commit rather than the act they commit. 

It doesn't matter what someone thinks about it - if they do racist ####, then they're doing racist ####. 

Right but we got down this rabbit hole with the idea that black face falls in to the obviously racist acts.  I still maintain there’s very few of those - Tim’s example may be one but I argue differently than Tim - I think there’s a lot of racist acts that are only racist because of the intent.  

 

[Sheriff Bart]

Kinda like a pianist?

No. 

 

[adonis]

I just can't fathom how an act can be racist in and of itself.  it has to be based on the motivation of the person doing/saying/thinking it.

For instance, take the example of a white person beating a black person, physically.

Is it a racist act or not?  I guarantee you, there's not enough information there for you to determine it.  

Only when you start adding information that can cause you to get a sense of the intent from the white person, can you more appropriately assign a racist cause.

Even further, you can have completely benign actions/comments that could be racist in nature, but simply not be obvious to folks.