Can you explain why you have faith in your religion? (1 Viewer)

[KCitons]

I think the problem here is the suppressing of gays rights to marriage. Can you imagine Jesus and the apostles getting involved in the political aspects of Rome and trying to change the laws? I realize they were an extreme minority, but Jesus could have made big changes. He was offered "all the kingdoms of the world", but that wasn't his purpose at the time. Religious people who rant and rave and try to make political issues aren't really showing love, I would agree.

I think the key in a lot of the points raised in this thread is that you can't judge 100% of people who identify as Christians, based on the actions of some. Just because some preacher says "Well God took your daughter so he could have more angels" doesn't mean that the bible and Christianity is wrong, it means that there is a preacher that has a warped outlook on the bible and on God.

Can we take this a step further. How does the Bible compare to the Declaration of Independence?

After only 200 years, the DOI has limitations, but allowed for the people to make changes as times change.

But 2000 years after the Bible, the different religions don't have the same ability to be flexible as things change. They have painted themselves into a corner.

Can you expand on this? How have they painted themselves in a corner?

An example would be the Catholic Churches stance on divorce, purgatory, marriage between people with different religions. Painting themselves into a corner may not have been the best analogy. Hypocrisy is a better word. If God says, and the Catholic Church believes, that people with different religions can't be married, what does it say when the church makes this change? Did God tell someone that it's now OK?

 

[shader]

I think the problem here is the suppressing of gays rights to marriage. Can you imagine Jesus and the apostles getting involved in the political aspects of Rome and trying to change the laws? I realize they were an extreme minority, but Jesus could have made big changes. He was offered "all the kingdoms of the world", but that wasn't his purpose at the time. Religious people who rant and rave and try to make political issues aren't really showing love, I would agree.

I think the key in a lot of the points raised in this thread is that you can't judge 100% of people who identify as Christians, based on the actions of some. Just because some preacher says "Well God took your daughter so he could have more angels" doesn't mean that the bible and Christianity is wrong, it means that there is a preacher that has a warped outlook on the bible and on God.

Can we take this a step further. How does the Bible compare to the Declaration of Independence?

After only 200 years, the DOI has limitations, but allowed for the people to make changes as times change.

But 2000 years after the Bible, the different religions don't have the same ability to be flexible as things change. They have painted themselves into a corner.

Can you expand on this? How have they painted themselves in a corner?

An example would be the Catholic Churches stance on divorce, purgatory, marriage between people with different religions. Painting themselves into a corner may not have been the best analogy. Hypocrisy is a better word. If God says, and the Catholic Church believes, that people with different religions can't be married, what does it say when the church makes this change? Did God tell someone that it's now OK?

Oh I agree that most churches have painted themselves into a corner in this area, I just wanted to make sure I was understanding exactly what you were saying. Once you start saying "well that law doesn't apply", then very quickly the members of the church will realize that they can basically pick and choose how they live their life. From there, you reach the point that many have reached today, where they live like they want Monday through Saturday, repent on Sunday and feel that Jesus loves everyone so as long as you are trying to be nice to people it doesn't much matter how you live your life.

The Catholic Church is a different animal because they basically believe that they can create their own laws, and aren't solely tied to the bible, from what I can understand.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Hey Joe,

Here's one of my main issues, and what feels like a real intellectual dissonance. Everything is part of God's plan. Everything. I mean, many religious people think he gives us our lottery victories and our stubbed toes. Everything happens for a reason. By the same token, they say things like "save me from ____." Or "God has averted a disaster." Or something similar. How does that fit for you? I get that "God works in mysterious ways" is the general retort, but really - "God is love" and "God killed 5,500 people today from complications related to AIDS" seem like they just cannot be reconciled. I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that either everything is not part of God's plan or He doesn't have a grand plan for each of us that involves benevolence.

To quote Boyz N The Hood (which I somehow keep doing when messaging back and forth with you - that's weird) "Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the Hood."

I'm with you Henry. I don't get it either. The common argument is that either God is all powerful and doesn't care. Or that God cares and isn't all powerful. It can manifest itself in lighter riddle type stuff like "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?" or more serious things like what you're saying about how does God allow AIDS? People way smarter and infinitely more capable than I am have debated this forever. My answer, is that I don't really know why God allows those things. But I think the way I see it is as God essentially "turning over" mankind to let us do what we want. That's the "broken" world with evil and pain and suffering and death and all that.

We're stuck with the world. God can't allow sin. Man has sinned. So we're stuck. I see "the plan" is that God offered us a way not to be "stuck" and separated from God eternally. In the Old Testament, the Jewish people (God's chosen people) worked this out with animal sacrifices. You did something a little bad, you sacrificed a bird. You did something really bad, you sacrificed a bull. Christians believe the New Testament part of the bible and that God changed that sacrifice system by sending Jesus. Jesus became the sacrifice for mankind and allowed God and mankind to be reconciled.

So bad stuff still happens here. Christians aren't immune from bad stuff. A cross around your neck isn't a lucky charm so good things follow you. In fact, there is a good bit of writing in the bible telling Christians to expect more pain and suffering. Paul is the guy who wrote a ton of the New Testament. He was shipwrecked, beaten, jailed and was tortured and beheaded under Nero. Peter, a disciple of Jesus was crucified upside down. John the Baptist was beheaded when the king's wife's daughter got to make a wish. That's why I tend to dismiss my fellow American Christians who scream bloody murder when something pretty minor separating church and state is done.

So back to the point. Bad stuff happens here. But Christians believe God's offered a way to be unstuck when it comes to eternity. But I'll also say quickly - living the Christian life in my opinion isn't some kind of penance or drudgery or work we do here so we can have heaven. I'd contend that following the tenets of Jesus with the two biggest being Love God and Love Your Neighbor (and your neighbor is everyone) is the best way to live. (Matthew chapter 22, verse 34-40)

Sorry to ramble so much there and be scattered.

J

And I think this is the sticking point, Joe - I'm not asking why God has "allowed" sin or "allowed" AIDS. I'm asking why God made sin. Why God made AIDS. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3.That's the cognitive dissonance I'm talking about. He's not allowing the existence of horrible things, and we can't figure out why He'd let that happen. He created them. At least according to the Bible.

Hi Henry. There are some people talk about evil not being created but being the absence of good. Is that fully satisfying? Probably not.

J

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7.

Hi Henry,Yes, there's something similar in the book of Amos as well. There is argument on how the word "rah" is translated to evil.

"It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV."

Not sure if that makes any difference. It's definitely one that is tough.

By far the bigger point though and one that is talked about over and over instead of being referenced in a few verses is God sending Jesus to reconcile Man to God.

J

Yeah, most modern bibles don't translate that word as evil. And God did bring calamity upon evildoers in the past, and promises to do it in the future as well. It doesn't say he causes ALL calamity though, just that he causes it.

Shall there be evil in a city, and he not done it? (May be a word or two off. This is from memory.). Amos chapter... 3?

And, again, he has made everything that exists. Very clearly stated over and over. AIDs is a thing. It exists. In fact, it's a virus and thus arguably a living thing. Can someone else make living things?

Yes. it's the Amos 3:6 verse I referenced above.

6When the ram’s horn blows a warning,
shouldn’t the people be alarmed?
Does disaster come to a city
unless the lord has planned it?

It's absolutely hard to understand God bringing disaster to a city. The Noah movie recently brought that to the fore front. Not easy for sure.

J

 

[butcher boy]

The simple solution to me is that maybe organized religion should get out of the business of creating laws telling people how to live their lives and focus more on living harmoniously with each other and getting closer to god.

 

[Henry Ford]

HF,

I feel like you aren't addressing any of the other points I've made, but insteading choosing to take a dogmatic view on what God "creating all things" means. I don't think God specifically chose all of the genetic qualities that compromise who I am. But I think He created man, the genetic code, and the hereditary laws. But the rise of a virus that can cause death to humans is not God's fault, as without man's original sin, there would be no death and no ability for a virus to do any damage. So, no, I don't believe that God decided in the late 20th century to directly create a virus in monkeys and cause it to mutate to humans and become the modern AIDS virus.

And as I said earlier, if all man lived according to God's moral laws, AIDS would never have been a worldwide problem anyway.

It looks like I'm missing all of your other points. The only point I've seen in this conversation is that you take exception to the idea that God creates mutations in viruses, cancer, and other horrible things. I don't think that refutes what I'm saying at all. You simply cannot get around the fact that the Bible clearly states over and over that God creates calamity, disaster, and horrible things. God states that he creates horrible things. This is not consistent with an omnibenevolent God.

You also seem to have a problem with me taking the Bible literally, or dogmatically. Which is also fine. But if that statement is false, if God didn't create every thing on Earth, if he doesn't create calamity, or disaster, or evil, or whatever you want to call it - what's true in the Bible? If He isn't the all-powerful creator of everything in the Universe, what would I be worshipping?

Also, one final point - what exactly is your belief about how AIDS moved to humans? What is it about God's moral law that doesn't allow human beings to come into blood-to-blood contact with a primate?

 

[shader]

HF,

I feel like you aren't addressing any of the other points I've made, but insteading choosing to take a dogmatic view on what God "creating all things" means. I don't think God specifically chose all of the genetic qualities that compromise who I am. But I think He created man, the genetic code, and the hereditary laws. But the rise of a virus that can cause death to humans is not God's fault, as without man's original sin, there would be no death and no ability for a virus to do any damage. So, no, I don't believe that God decided in the late 20th century to directly create a virus in monkeys and cause it to mutate to humans and become the modern AIDS virus.

And as I said earlier, if all man lived according to God's moral laws, AIDS would never have been a worldwide problem anyway.

It looks like I'm missing all of your other points. The only point I've seen in this conversation is that you take exception to the idea that God creates mutations in viruses, cancer, and other horrible things. I don't think that refutes what I'm saying at all. You simply cannot get around the fact that the Bible clearly states over and over that God creates calamity, disaster, and horrible things. God states that he creates horrible things. This is not consistent with an omnibenevolent God.

You also seem to have a problem with me taking the Bible literally, or dogmatically. Which is also fine. But if that statement is false, if God didn't create every thing on Earth, if he doesn't create calamity, or disaster, or evil, or whatever you want to call it - what's true in the Bible? If He isn't the all-powerful creator of everything in the Universe, what would I be worshipping?

Also, one final point - what exactly is your belief about how AIDS moved to humans? What is it about God's moral law that doesn't allow human beings to come into blood-to-blood contact with a primate?

This is an exhausting sidebar. I'll give it one more try.

1. I clearly admitted that God causes disaster. But he doesn't cause ALL disaster. Man has to take a lot of blame for much of the badness that exists (something any atheist clearly believes)

2. I can't quite figure out what you think the bible teaches as to God's omnipotence or His creation of everything. You seem to be struggling with the idea that God can be all-powerful, but not have a hand in everything that happens. For instance, I believe he's my Creator, and also Father. But that doesn't mean He reached down and designed every part of me, just as my physical father didn't sit down and design my DNA. God created humans and is the source of life. As such, he's our Creator. I'm struggling to follow your point, as this seems really basic to me, but it seems as if you have your own ideas of what you want the bible to believe, though you don't believe the bible. That's kind of silly, if you ask me, but it's obviously your right.

3. The actual spread of AIDS to man wasn't a moral issue. It was a mutation in an imperfect world. It's the spread of AIDS into a killer of millions of people that was caused, in part, by people living in a way that morally, wasn't biblical.

 

[Henry Ford]

HF,

I feel like you aren't addressing any of the other points I've made, but insteading choosing to take a dogmatic view on what God "creating all things" means. I don't think God specifically chose all of the genetic qualities that compromise who I am. But I think He created man, the genetic code, and the hereditary laws. But the rise of a virus that can cause death to humans is not God's fault, as without man's original sin, there would be no death and no ability for a virus to do any damage. So, no, I don't believe that God decided in the late 20th century to directly create a virus in monkeys and cause it to mutate to humans and become the modern AIDS virus.

And as I said earlier, if all man lived according to God's moral laws, AIDS would never have been a worldwide problem anyway.

It looks like I'm missing all of your other points. The only point I've seen in this conversation is that you take exception to the idea that God creates mutations in viruses, cancer, and other horrible things. I don't think that refutes what I'm saying at all. You simply cannot get around the fact that the Bible clearly states over and over that God creates calamity, disaster, and horrible things. God states that he creates horrible things. This is not consistent with an omnibenevolent God.

You also seem to have a problem with me taking the Bible literally, or dogmatically. Which is also fine. But if that statement is false, if God didn't create every thing on Earth, if he doesn't create calamity, or disaster, or evil, or whatever you want to call it - what's true in the Bible? If He isn't the all-powerful creator of everything in the Universe, what would I be worshipping?

Also, one final point - what exactly is your belief about how AIDS moved to humans? What is it about God's moral law that doesn't allow human beings to come into blood-to-blood contact with a primate?

This is an exhausting sidebar. I'll give it one more try.

1. I clearly admitted that God causes disaster. But he doesn't cause ALL disaster. Man has to take a lot of blame for much of the badness that exists (something any atheist clearly believes)

2. I can't quite figure out what you think the bible teaches as to God's omnipotence or His creation of everything. You seem to be struggling with the idea that God can be all-powerful, but not have a hand in everything that happens. For instance, I believe he's my Creator, and also Father. But that doesn't mean He reached down and designed every part of me, just as my physical father didn't sit down and design my DNA. God created humans and is the source of life. As such, he's our Creator. I'm struggling to follow your point, as this seems really basic to me, but it seems as if you have your own ideas of what you want the bible to believe, though you don't believe the bible. That's kind of silly, if you ask me, but it's obviously your right.

3. The actual spread of AIDS to man wasn't a moral issue. It was a mutation in an imperfect world. It's the spread of AIDS into a killer of millions of people that was caused, in part, by people living in a way that morally, wasn't biblical.

I'm not struggling with the idea that God can be all-powerful but not have a hand in everything that happens, I'm struggling with how an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God creates horrible things. That's it. The response to that issue has been "God didn't create evil" or "God didn't make the horrible things happen" but rather that he let them happen. Leaving aside the implications of the type of God we're discussing letting these things happen to innocents, the idea that God didn't make horrible things happen is, frankly, inconsistent with the Bible. It just is. He destroyed the entire Earth by water. He turned someone to salt for looking back. He specifically states that he creates awful things in Isaiah. My point is not that an omnipotent God must have created every individual thing, my point is that "The God that made the world and all things therein" "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create [whatever word you want to use here other than evil]: I the LORD do all these things." are inconsistent with the view that God is omnibenevolent. That's all.

And I'm fine with that, I can definitely dig it, but I don't find the concept of an all-powerful being who thinks one of the ten worst things I could ever do is say His name with the wrong intention to be worthy of worship. That's my point. It's not that it's impossible that there's a God, it's that even if such a being existed, I can't get on board with bowing down and worshipping Him.

 

[shader]

HF,

I feel like you aren't addressing any of the other points I've made, but insteading choosing to take a dogmatic view on what God "creating all things" means. I don't think God specifically chose all of the genetic qualities that compromise who I am. But I think He created man, the genetic code, and the hereditary laws. But the rise of a virus that can cause death to humans is not God's fault, as without man's original sin, there would be no death and no ability for a virus to do any damage. So, no, I don't believe that God decided in the late 20th century to directly create a virus in monkeys and cause it to mutate to humans and become the modern AIDS virus.

And as I said earlier, if all man lived according to God's moral laws, AIDS would never have been a worldwide problem anyway.

It looks like I'm missing all of your other points. The only point I've seen in this conversation is that you take exception to the idea that God creates mutations in viruses, cancer, and other horrible things. I don't think that refutes what I'm saying at all. You simply cannot get around the fact that the Bible clearly states over and over that God creates calamity, disaster, and horrible things. God states that he creates horrible things. This is not consistent with an omnibenevolent God.

You also seem to have a problem with me taking the Bible literally, or dogmatically. Which is also fine. But if that statement is false, if God didn't create every thing on Earth, if he doesn't create calamity, or disaster, or evil, or whatever you want to call it - what's true in the Bible? If He isn't the all-powerful creator of everything in the Universe, what would I be worshipping?

Also, one final point - what exactly is your belief about how AIDS moved to humans? What is it about God's moral law that doesn't allow human beings to come into blood-to-blood contact with a primate?

This is an exhausting sidebar. I'll give it one more try.

1. I clearly admitted that God causes disaster. But he doesn't cause ALL disaster. Man has to take a lot of blame for much of the badness that exists (something any atheist clearly believes)

2. I can't quite figure out what you think the bible teaches as to God's omnipotence or His creation of everything. You seem to be struggling with the idea that God can be all-powerful, but not have a hand in everything that happens. For instance, I believe he's my Creator, and also Father. But that doesn't mean He reached down and designed every part of me, just as my physical father didn't sit down and design my DNA. God created humans and is the source of life. As such, he's our Creator. I'm struggling to follow your point, as this seems really basic to me, but it seems as if you have your own ideas of what you want the bible to believe, though you don't believe the bible. That's kind of silly, if you ask me, but it's obviously your right.

3. The actual spread of AIDS to man wasn't a moral issue. It was a mutation in an imperfect world. It's the spread of AIDS into a killer of millions of people that was caused, in part, by people living in a way that morally, wasn't biblical.

I'm not struggling with the idea that God can be all-powerful but not have a hand in everything that happens, I'm struggling with how an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God creates horrible things. That's it. The response to that issue has been "God didn't create evil" or "God didn't make the horrible things happen" but rather that he let them happen. Leaving aside the implications of the type of God we're discussing letting these things happen to innocents, the idea that God didn't make horrible things happen is, frankly, inconsistent with the Bible. It just is. He destroyed the entire Earth by water. He turned someone to salt for looking back. He specifically states that he creates awful things in Isaiah. My point is not that an omnipotent God must have created every individual thing, my point is that "The God that made the world and all things therein" "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create [whatever word you want to use here other than evil]: I the LORD do all these things." are inconsistent with the view that God is omnibenevolent. That's all.

And I'm fine with that, I can definitely dig it, but I don't find the concept of an all-powerful being who thinks one of the ten worst things I could ever do is say His name with the wrong intention to be worthy of worship. That's my point. It's not that it's impossible that there's a God, it's that even if such a being existed, I can't get on board with bowing down and worshipping Him.

It can be difficult to understand. However, when the world is in opposition to God and his laws, God has no problem bringing destruction on people that He created that are living abhorrently. The bible says the pre-flood world was "full of violence" and that demons came down to earth among other things. So we could sit back and worry about how God could cause that destruction, or we could take the bible's word for it that the world at the time was an awful place.

It sounds like you don't feel that God has the right to destroy humans who aren't obedient or who live in opposition to His laws. I like the questioning that Abraham asked God before God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. He obviously struggled with God saying he was going to destroy those cities.

The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.[SIZE=.65em][d][/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked?[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[e][/SIZE] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it?[SIZE=.75em]25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”[/SIZE]

The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”

[SIZE=.75em]27 [/SIZE]Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, [SIZE=.75em]28 [/SIZE]what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”

“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”

[SIZE=.75em]29 [/SIZE]Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”

He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”

[SIZE=.75em]30 [/SIZE]Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”

He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”

[SIZE=.75em]31 [/SIZE]Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”

He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”

[SIZE=.75em]32 [/SIZE]Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”

He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”

 

[Henry Ford]

HF,

I feel like you aren't addressing any of the other points I've made, but insteading choosing to take a dogmatic view on what God "creating all things" means. I don't think God specifically chose all of the genetic qualities that compromise who I am. But I think He created man, the genetic code, and the hereditary laws. But the rise of a virus that can cause death to humans is not God's fault, as without man's original sin, there would be no death and no ability for a virus to do any damage. So, no, I don't believe that God decided in the late 20th century to directly create a virus in monkeys and cause it to mutate to humans and become the modern AIDS virus.

And as I said earlier, if all man lived according to God's moral laws, AIDS would never have been a worldwide problem anyway.

It looks like I'm missing all of your other points. The only point I've seen in this conversation is that you take exception to the idea that God creates mutations in viruses, cancer, and other horrible things. I don't think that refutes what I'm saying at all. You simply cannot get around the fact that the Bible clearly states over and over that God creates calamity, disaster, and horrible things. God states that he creates horrible things. This is not consistent with an omnibenevolent God.

You also seem to have a problem with me taking the Bible literally, or dogmatically. Which is also fine. But if that statement is false, if God didn't create every thing on Earth, if he doesn't create calamity, or disaster, or evil, or whatever you want to call it - what's true in the Bible? If He isn't the all-powerful creator of everything in the Universe, what would I be worshipping?

Also, one final point - what exactly is your belief about how AIDS moved to humans? What is it about God's moral law that doesn't allow human beings to come into blood-to-blood contact with a primate?

This is an exhausting sidebar. I'll give it one more try.

1. I clearly admitted that God causes disaster. But he doesn't cause ALL disaster. Man has to take a lot of blame for much of the badness that exists (something any atheist clearly believes)

2. I can't quite figure out what you think the bible teaches as to God's omnipotence or His creation of everything. You seem to be struggling with the idea that God can be all-powerful, but not have a hand in everything that happens. For instance, I believe he's my Creator, and also Father. But that doesn't mean He reached down and designed every part of me, just as my physical father didn't sit down and design my DNA. God created humans and is the source of life. As such, he's our Creator. I'm struggling to follow your point, as this seems really basic to me, but it seems as if you have your own ideas of what you want the bible to believe, though you don't believe the bible. That's kind of silly, if you ask me, but it's obviously your right.

3. The actual spread of AIDS to man wasn't a moral issue. It was a mutation in an imperfect world. It's the spread of AIDS into a killer of millions of people that was caused, in part, by people living in a way that morally, wasn't biblical.

I'm not struggling with the idea that God can be all-powerful but not have a hand in everything that happens, I'm struggling with how an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God creates horrible things. That's it. The response to that issue has been "God didn't create evil" or "God didn't make the horrible things happen" but rather that he let them happen. Leaving aside the implications of the type of God we're discussing letting these things happen to innocents, the idea that God didn't make horrible things happen is, frankly, inconsistent with the Bible. It just is. He destroyed the entire Earth by water. He turned someone to salt for looking back. He specifically states that he creates awful things in Isaiah. My point is not that an omnipotent God must have created every individual thing, my point is that "The God that made the world and all things therein" "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create [whatever word you want to use here other than evil]: I the LORD do all these things." are inconsistent with the view that God is omnibenevolent. That's all.

And I'm fine with that, I can definitely dig it, but I don't find the concept of an all-powerful being who thinks one of the ten worst things I could ever do is say His name with the wrong intention to be worthy of worship. That's my point. It's not that it's impossible that there's a God, it's that even if such a being existed, I can't get on board with bowing down and worshipping Him.

It can be difficult to understand. However, when the world is in opposition to God and his laws, God has no problem bringing destruction on people that He created that are living abhorrently. The bible says the pre-flood world was "full of violence" and that demons came down to earth among other things. So we could sit back and worry about how God could cause that destruction, or we could take the bible's word for it that the world at the time was an awful place.

It sounds like you don't feel that God has the right to destroy humans who aren't obedient or who live in opposition to His laws. I like the questioning that Abraham asked God before God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. He obviously struggled with God saying he was going to destroy those cities.

The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.[SIZE=.65em][d][/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked?[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[e][/SIZE] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it?[SIZE=.75em]25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”[/SIZE]

The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”

[SIZE=.75em]27 [/SIZE]Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, [SIZE=.75em]28 [/SIZE]what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”

“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”

[SIZE=.75em]29 [/SIZE]Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”

He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”

[SIZE=.75em]30 [/SIZE]Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”

He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”

[SIZE=.75em]31 [/SIZE]Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”

He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”

[SIZE=.75em]32 [/SIZE]Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”

He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”

I think if there's a God he has the "right" to do whatever He wants. But a petty, jealous, omnipotent jerk who brings death and destruction to Earth, kills babies, hands down rules and punishments I feel are unfair and, often, random, and doesn't have my best interests at heart isn't someone I'd worship. For any reason. Which is why "God is love" and "He has a plan for us all" tend to resonate better with lots of people than "Sinners in the hands of an angry God."

I believe very strongly that we should all be nice to each other. I don't believe that's really how the God discussed in the Bible does things.

I guess what I'm saying is, the only reason I can find to believe in God - the utility of it - doesn't even work for me. I don't find the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible comforting, forgiving, or loving. The only reason to believe in particulars of God - what He allegedly wants, for instance - is the Bible. And either it's wrong about a lot of very strong statements, or he's not a terribly nice God from my perspective. Either one of those brings me right back to the start.

 

[matuski]

HF,

I feel like you aren't addressing any of the other points I've made, but insteading choosing to take a dogmatic view on what God "creating all things" means. I don't think God specifically chose all of the genetic qualities that compromise who I am. But I think He created man, the genetic code, and the hereditary laws. But the rise of a virus that can cause death to humans is not God's fault, as without man's original sin, there would be no death and no ability for a virus to do any damage. So, no, I don't believe that God decided in the late 20th century to directly create a virus in monkeys and cause it to mutate to humans and become the modern AIDS virus.

And as I said earlier, if all man lived according to God's moral laws, AIDS would never have been a worldwide problem anyway.

How would all man live by his laws when there are still men today that have never heard of your god?

Did he forget that part? Oops?

 

[timschochet]

shader, if what you write is accurate, then God can't "love" mankind- or if He does, the word "love" would have a completely different meaning to Him than we understand the term.

When I got home from work last night, I discovered my two daughters hadn't cleaned their rooms. I knew beforehand this would be the case, because I knew they would screw around and forget. However, despite the fact that I knew it would be the case, I was still angered, and so I drowned my older daughter to death as a punishment. My younger daughter begged me for forgiveness, so I spared her for now. That's because I love both of them so much.

 

[proninja]

Theologians talk about God's soverign will vs his permissive will. Essentially, everything that happens is within God's will, because if God did not will it to happen, it would not have happened. God's soverign will is the things he directly causes. God's permissive will covers the things God himself did not cause, but did indeed will to happen.

This brings up the problem of evil. It's a tough one. I don't claim to have a good answer.

 

[shader]

shader, if what you write is accurate, then God can't "love" mankind- or if He does, the word "love" would have a completely different meaning to Him than we understand the term.

When I got home from work last night, I discovered my two daughters hadn't cleaned their rooms. I knew beforehand this would be the case, because I knew they would screw around and forget. However, despite the fact that I knew it would be the case, I was still angered, and so I drowned my older daughter to death as a punishment. My younger daughter begged me for forgiveness, so I spared her for now. That's because I love both of them so much.

Well that's quite an exaggeration...

 

[timschochet]

shader, if what you write is accurate, then God can't "love" mankind- or if He does, the word "love" would have a completely different meaning to Him than we understand the term.

When I got home from work last night, I discovered my two daughters hadn't cleaned their rooms. I knew beforehand this would be the case, because I knew they would screw around and forget. However, despite the fact that I knew it would be the case, I was still angered, and so I drowned my older daughter to death as a punishment. My younger daughter begged me for forgiveness, so I spared her for now. That's because I love both of them so much.

Well that's quite an exaggeration...

Is it? You're the one that brought up God's punishments- the Flood, Sodom, etc., and then still suggested that God loves mankind. It's hard for me to find the two ideas to be compatible.

 

[Henry Ford]

shader, if what you write is accurate, then God can't "love" mankind- or if He does, the word "love" would have a completely different meaning to Him than we understand the term.

When I got home from work last night, I discovered my two daughters hadn't cleaned their rooms. I knew beforehand this would be the case, because I knew they would screw around and forget. However, despite the fact that I knew it would be the case, I was still angered, and so I drowned my older daughter to death as a punishment. My younger daughter begged me for forgiveness, so I spared her for now. That's because I love both of them so much.

Well that's quite an exaggeration...

Tell that to Nadab and Abihu.

 

[The Commish]

The simple solution to me is that maybe organized religion should get out of the business of creating laws telling people how to live their lives and focus more on living harmoniously with each other and getting closer to god.

Can you explain this....which organized religion is creating laws? If you want to argue that the politicians had no business constructing the laws as they have, you probably won't get much push back. Is that what you mean?

 

[shader]

HF,

I feel like you aren't addressing any of the other points I've made, but insteading choosing to take a dogmatic view on what God "creating all things" means. I don't think God specifically chose all of the genetic qualities that compromise who I am. But I think He created man, the genetic code, and the hereditary laws. But the rise of a virus that can cause death to humans is not God's fault, as without man's original sin, there would be no death and no ability for a virus to do any damage. So, no, I don't believe that God decided in the late 20th century to directly create a virus in monkeys and cause it to mutate to humans and become the modern AIDS virus.

And as I said earlier, if all man lived according to God's moral laws, AIDS would never have been a worldwide problem anyway.

How would all man live by his laws when there are still men today that have never heard of your god?

Did he forget that part? Oops?

Fair question.

1. First off, there are very few people today alive who haven't heard of God or the bible. You would be hard pressed to find a language that doesn't have the bible or parts of the bible translated into that language.

2. I don't believe that God will punish non-christians in hellfire, so I don't struggle with this. I actually believe most non-christians will get another chance, but that's really getting outside of the scope of the thread.

 

[matuski]

Theologians talk about God's soverign will vs his permissive will. Essentially, everything that happens is within God's will, because if God did not will it to happen, it would not have happened. God's soverign will is the things he directly causes. God's permissive will covers the things God himself did not cause, but did indeed will to happen.

This brings up the problem of evil. It's a tough one. I don't claim to have a good answer.

The problem extends beyond just "evil".

Are all the non Christians in the world part of his will?

 

[shader]

shader, if what you write is accurate, then God can't "love" mankind- or if He does, the word "love" would have a completely different meaning to Him than we understand the term.

When I got home from work last night, I discovered my two daughters hadn't cleaned their rooms. I knew beforehand this would be the case, because I knew they would screw around and forget. However, despite the fact that I knew it would be the case, I was still angered, and so I drowned my older daughter to death as a punishment. My younger daughter begged me for forgiveness, so I spared her for now. That's because I love both of them so much.

Well that's quite an exaggeration...

Is it? You're the one that brought up God's punishments- the Flood, Sodom, etc., and then still suggested that God loves mankind. It's hard for me to find the two ideas to be compatible.

When it comes to Sodom, I already quoted the scriptures. God didn't see righteous people in Sodom, or before the flood. He saw bad, violent people. In the US, bad, violent people are put to death, and many see that as justice...why does God (who can see the heart) not have the right to do the same?

 

[timschochet]

HF,

I feel like you aren't addressing any of the other points I've made, but insteading choosing to take a dogmatic view on what God "creating all things" means. I don't think God specifically chose all of the genetic qualities that compromise who I am. But I think He created man, the genetic code, and the hereditary laws. But the rise of a virus that can cause death to humans is not God's fault, as without man's original sin, there would be no death and no ability for a virus to do any damage. So, no, I don't believe that God decided in the late 20th century to directly create a virus in monkeys and cause it to mutate to humans and become the modern AIDS virus.

And as I said earlier, if all man lived according to God's moral laws, AIDS would never have been a worldwide problem anyway.

How would all man live by his laws when there are still men today that have never heard of your god?

Did he forget that part? Oops?

Fair question.

1. First off, there are very few people today alive who haven't heard of God or the bible. You would be hard pressed to find a language that doesn't have the bible or parts of the bible translated into that language.

2. I don't believe that God will punish non-christians in hellfire, so I don't struggle with this. I actually believe most non-christians will get another chance, but that's really getting outside of the scope of the thread.

You've stated this before, and IMO, it makes your beliefs far more moral than those of mainstream Christianity. However, it DOES put you outside of mainstream Christian thought (if I recall correctly, you also don't believe in the Trinity.)

 

[timschochet]

shader, if what you write is accurate, then God can't "love" mankind- or if He does, the word "love" would have a completely different meaning to Him than we understand the term.

When I got home from work last night, I discovered my two daughters hadn't cleaned their rooms. I knew beforehand this would be the case, because I knew they would screw around and forget. However, despite the fact that I knew it would be the case, I was still angered, and so I drowned my older daughter to death as a punishment. My younger daughter begged me for forgiveness, so I spared her for now. That's because I love both of them so much.

Well that's quite an exaggeration...

Is it? You're the one that brought up God's punishments- the Flood, Sodom, etc., and then still suggested that God loves mankind. It's hard for me to find the two ideas to be compatible.

When it comes to Sodom, I already quoted the scriptures. God didn't see righteous people in Sodom, or before the flood. He saw bad, violent people. In the US, bad, violent people are put to death, and many see that as justice...why does God (who can see the heart) not have the right to do the same?

Well, for one thing, we don't put entire towns to death. We don't have a collective form of justice here. I have to assume there were children and infants who died in the Flood and in Sodom, right? What was their crime?

 

[shader]

HF,

I feel like you aren't addressing any of the other points I've made, but insteading choosing to take a dogmatic view on what God "creating all things" means. I don't think God specifically chose all of the genetic qualities that compromise who I am. But I think He created man, the genetic code, and the hereditary laws. But the rise of a virus that can cause death to humans is not God's fault, as without man's original sin, there would be no death and no ability for a virus to do any damage. So, no, I don't believe that God decided in the late 20th century to directly create a virus in monkeys and cause it to mutate to humans and become the modern AIDS virus.

And as I said earlier, if all man lived according to God's moral laws, AIDS would never have been a worldwide problem anyway.

How would all man live by his laws when there are still men today that have never heard of your god?

Did he forget that part? Oops?

Fair question.

1. First off, there are very few people today alive who haven't heard of God or the bible. You would be hard pressed to find a language that doesn't have the bible or parts of the bible translated into that language.

2. I don't believe that God will punish non-christians in hellfire, so I don't struggle with this. I actually believe most non-christians will get another chance, but that's really getting outside of the scope of the thread.

You've stated this before, and IMO, it makes your beliefs far more moral than those of mainstream Christianity. However, it DOES put you outside of mainstream Christian thought (if I recall correctly, you also don't believe in the Trinity.)

I agree 100%

 

[shader]

shader, if what you write is accurate, then God can't "love" mankind- or if He does, the word "love" would have a completely different meaning to Him than we understand the term.

When I got home from work last night, I discovered my two daughters hadn't cleaned their rooms. I knew beforehand this would be the case, because I knew they would screw around and forget. However, despite the fact that I knew it would be the case, I was still angered, and so I drowned my older daughter to death as a punishment. My younger daughter begged me for forgiveness, so I spared her for now. That's because I love both of them so much.

Well that's quite an exaggeration...

Is it? You're the one that brought up God's punishments- the Flood, Sodom, etc., and then still suggested that God loves mankind. It's hard for me to find the two ideas to be compatible.

When it comes to Sodom, I already quoted the scriptures. God didn't see righteous people in Sodom, or before the flood. He saw bad, violent people. In the US, bad, violent people are put to death, and many see that as justice...why does God (who can see the heart) not have the right to do the same?

Well, for one thing, we don't put entire towns to death. We don't have a collective form of justice here. I have to assume there were children and infants who died in the Flood and in Sodom, right? What was their crime?

Jesus said there would be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. That helps me in difficult questions like this. The world was ruined with violence. God warned people through Enoch and then Noah and the people didn't listen. If it was an eternal judgment to hellfire for the children and babies that died, then that would seem immoral. If they get another chance (children and infants) through a resurrection, than the judgment doesn't seem too harsh for me. At some level you have faith built on all the GOOD things you've seen from God, and you have faith that the "Judge of all the Earth" is going to do what's right.

 

[Henry Ford]

Jesus said there would be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. That helps me in difficult questions like this. The world was ruined with violence. God warned people through Enoch and then Noah and the people didn't listen. If it was an eternal judgment to hellfire for the children and babies that died, then that would seem immoral. If they get another chance (children and infants) through a resurrection, than the judgment doesn't seem too harsh for me. At some level you have faith built on all the GOOD things you've seen from God, and you have faith that the "Judge of all the Earth" is going to do what's right.

Like what?

 

[butcher boy]

The simple solution to me is that maybe organized religion should get out of the business of creating laws telling people how to live their lives and focus more on living harmoniously with each other and getting closer to god.

Can you explain this....which organized religion is creating laws? If you want to argue that the politicians had no business constructing the laws as they have, you probably won't get much push back. Is that what you mean?

Does Christianity not tell people things like being gay is a sin or having an abortion is a sin? That's what I mean by a law, not actual government legislation. Although many of them DO stick their nose into the government. Prop 8 in California passed basically because it was funded by the Mormons for example.

My point was religion should stick to worshipping their higher power of choice and not be in the business of telling people what to do with their bodies.

 

[shader]

Jesus said there would be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. That helps me in difficult questions like this. The world was ruined with violence. God warned people through Enoch and then Noah and the people didn't listen. If it was an eternal judgment to hellfire for the children and babies that died, then that would seem immoral. If they get another chance (children and infants) through a resurrection, than the judgment doesn't seem too harsh for me. At some level you have faith built on all the GOOD things you've seen from God, and you have faith that the "Judge of all the Earth" is going to do what's right.

Like what?

Blue skies, my wife, my daughter, my son, happiness, food, sex, love, wine, the universe, the earth, our bodies, warmth, snow, the bible, my personal beliefs (a huge component of this list, but I don't need to list them all), science, air, technology, my brain, family, friends, music, God's promises for the future. That's just a quick few that I can quickly type in 2 minutes. There are many, many more but the point is that God has provided a great overall world that man has screwed up. I don't blame God for the evils that are in the world, as most of them are caused by man, imo.

 

[butcher boy]

Jesus said there would be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. That helps me in difficult questions like this. The world was ruined with violence. God warned people through Enoch and then Noah and the people didn't listen. If it was an eternal judgment to hellfire for the children and babies that died, then that would seem immoral. If they get another chance (children and infants) through a resurrection, than the judgment doesn't seem too harsh for me. At some level you have faith built on all the GOOD things you've seen from God, and you have faith that the "Judge of all the Earth" is going to do what's right.

Like what?

Blue skies, my wife, my daughter, my son, happiness, food, sex, love, wine, the universe, the earth, our bodies, warmth, snow, the bible, my personal beliefs (a huge component of this list, but I don't need to list them all), science, air, technology, my brain, family, friends, music, God's promises for the future. That's just a quick few that I can quickly type in 2 minutes. There are many, many more but the point is that God has provided a great overall world that man has screwed up. I don't blame God for the evils that are in the world, as most of them are caused by man, imo.

Did god also create earthquakes and tornadoes and hurricanes and droughts and the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs?

 

[B-Deep]

Hi tim,

That's absolutely a fair question. And I think it's the one people most often ask. Christians included. As someone who's lost two people very close to me, my best friend at 22 and my brother who was 43, I've struggled with this. Clearly, a look at the news at any time shows tons of this.

I don't know there are any totally satisfactory answers. And it's something mankind has wrestled with forever. In it's most basic form, we see it as the world is "fallen" meaning that as the world rejected God, now it's difficult. And there is disease and death. We have a separation between ourselves and God that is bridged by Jesus.

But on Earth, there is death and evil and suffering. And it sucks. But it's the cards we're dealt here. And it's not "fair" that some deal with way more difficult circumstances than others. Most of us live like royalty compared to the rest of the world's population. Is that fair? Not really. So I don't have answers there.

One thing that has helped me some on the death thing is trying to think about how long we really have here. My brother dying at 43 seems very young to me. Parents do a lot of things for their kids. Burying them like my parents did my brother doesn't seem like one they should have to do. But on the other hand, nobody expects to live forever. We all know we'll die at some point. I'm not sure it's the right way to look at it like we're all "owed" our 95 years. Who knows, I could have cancer right now and be dead next year at 51. Few people are angry at a funeral for the guy who was 100. Yet we feel cheated when the guy was 40. I'm not criticizing, I'm saying I do too. And for a child, it's unimaginable. Hearing a story like BB's is just crushing to me. So I don't have solid answers. But I have come to the idea that I'm not sure we're all owed some amount of time.

But it's definitely a real question. When my best friend died, I was incredibly angry at God. I basically "opted out" of "the game" saying, "Forget this. If this is how it's played, count me out". And I stayed there for about 10 years. But that was a while ago. For me, it was coming around to an understanding that this isn't all about me and what's "fair" to me. But I'm not discounting the question at all. I get it.

J

Hey Joe,

Here's one of my main issues, and what feels like a real intellectual dissonance. Everything is part of God's plan. Everything. I mean, many religious people think he gives us our lottery victories and our stubbed toes. Everything happens for a reason. By the same token, they say things like "save me from ____." Or "God has averted a disaster." Or something similar. How does that fit for you? I get that "God works in mysterious ways" is the general retort, but really - "God is love" and "God killed 5,500 people today from complications related to AIDS" seem like they just cannot be reconciled. I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that either everything is not part of God's plan or He doesn't have a grand plan for each of us that involves benevolence.

To quote Boyz N The Hood (which I somehow keep doing when messaging back and forth with you - that's weird) "Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the Hood."

I'm with you Henry. I don't get it either. The common argument is that either God is all powerful and doesn't care. Or that God cares and isn't all powerful. It can manifest itself in lighter riddle type stuff like "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?" or more serious things like what you're saying about how does God allow AIDS? People way smarter and infinitely more capable than I am have debated this forever. My answer, is that I don't really know why God allows those things. But I think the way I see it is as God essentially "turning over" mankind to let us do what we want. That's the "broken" world with evil and pain and suffering and death and all that.

We're stuck with the world. God can't allow sin. Man has sinned. So we're stuck. I see "the plan" is that God offered us a way not to be "stuck" and separated from God eternally. In the Old Testament, the Jewish people (God's chosen people) worked this out with animal sacrifices. You did something a little bad, you sacrificed a bird. You did something really bad, you sacrificed a bull. Christians believe the New Testament part of the bible and that God changed that sacrifice system by sending Jesus. Jesus became the sacrifice for mankind and allowed God and mankind to be reconciled.

So bad stuff still happens here. Christians aren't immune from bad stuff. A cross around your neck isn't a lucky charm so good things follow you. In fact, there is a good bit of writing in the bible telling Christians to expect more pain and suffering. Paul is the guy who wrote a ton of the New Testament. He was shipwrecked, beaten, jailed and was tortured and beheaded under Nero. Peter, a disciple of Jesus was crucified upside down. John the Baptist was beheaded when the king's wife's daughter got to make a wish. That's why I tend to dismiss my fellow American Christians who scream bloody murder when something pretty minor separating church and state is done.

So back to the point. Bad stuff happens here. But Christians believe God's offered a way to be unstuck when it comes to eternity. But I'll also say quickly - living the Christian life in my opinion isn't some kind of penance or drudgery or work we do here so we can have heaven. I'd contend that following the tenets of Jesus with the two biggest being Love God and Love Your Neighbor (and your neighbor is everyone) is the best way to live. (Matthew chapter 22, verse 34-40)

Sorry to ramble so much there and be scattered.

J

And I think this is the sticking point, Joe - I'm not asking why God has "allowed" sin or "allowed" AIDS. I'm asking why God made sin. Why God made AIDS. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3.

That's the cognitive dissonance I'm talking about. He's not allowing the existence of horrible things, and we can't figure out why He'd let that happen. He created them. At least according to the Bible.

Hi Henry. There are some people talk about evil not being created but being the absence of good. Is that fully satisfying? Probably not.

J

God created existence

and he did so with full knowledge of all events that would ever transpire

if you believe those god created sin and allows sin to exist. before he created man there was no sin, and when he created man he knew man would sin

he created the tree of knowledge of good and evil and created eve knowing eve would sin and knowing all the suffering that would bring

I don't believe that at all

then god does not know the future?

is god's knowledge bound by the constraints of time?

 

[B-Deep]

i think my above question is key

if god is not all knowing, then perhaps he created man knowing man could screw up but not knowing he would

but if god knows the future, god knew when he created man all the screwups involved, and decided to create him anyway...then the screwups are on god as much as man

I have not met many who think that man can do anything god did not know man was going to do.

 

[Henry Ford]

Jesus said there would be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. That helps me in difficult questions like this. The world was ruined with violence. God warned people through Enoch and then Noah and the people didn't listen. If it was an eternal judgment to hellfire for the children and babies that died, then that would seem immoral. If they get another chance (children and infants) through a resurrection, than the judgment doesn't seem too harsh for me. At some level you have faith built on all the GOOD things you've seen from God, and you have faith that the "Judge of all the Earth" is going to do what's right.

Like what?

Blue skies, my wife, my daughter, my son, happiness, food, sex, love, wine, the universe, the earth, our bodies, warmth, snow, the bible, my personal beliefs (a huge component of this list, but I don't need to list them all), science, air, technology, my brain, family, friends, music, God's promises for the future. That's just a quick few that I can quickly type in 2 minutes. There are many, many more but the point is that God has provided a great overall world that man has screwed up. I don't blame God for the evils that are in the world, as most of them are caused by man, imo.

But you've already said that God doesn't do all of the minutiae - the "design of your DNA" and such. Your wife, your daughter, your son, family, friends, etc... especially your personal beliefs (which are yours to freely choose or not choose, right?)

If He's responsible for your wife being who she is, is He also responsible for the wives who are awful? If for food, then also for lack of food? If for the "promises of the future" - then also the past?

Is this just a matter of defining God as "He who created all the good stuff and bears no responsibility for the bad stuff"?

 

[shader]

Jesus said there would be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. That helps me in difficult questions like this. The world was ruined with violence. God warned people through Enoch and then Noah and the people didn't listen. If it was an eternal judgment to hellfire for the children and babies that died, then that would seem immoral. If they get another chance (children and infants) through a resurrection, than the judgment doesn't seem too harsh for me. At some level you have faith built on all the GOOD things you've seen from God, and you have faith that the "Judge of all the Earth" is going to do what's right.

Like what?

Blue skies, my wife, my daughter, my son, happiness, food, sex, love, wine, the universe, the earth, our bodies, warmth, snow, the bible, my personal beliefs (a huge component of this list, but I don't need to list them all), science, air, technology, my brain, family, friends, music, God's promises for the future. That's just a quick few that I can quickly type in 2 minutes. There are many, many more but the point is that God has provided a great overall world that man has screwed up. I don't blame God for the evils that are in the world, as most of them are caused by man, imo.

Did god also create earthquakes and tornadoes and hurricanes and droughts and the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs?

I'm struggling to see where this conversation is going. The name of the thread is "

Can you explain why you have faith in your religion?"Yet, we seem to be at a point where the non-believers are beginning to try and poke holes in people's feelings about life and the world in general.

Just so we are clear, I don't believe this world is as God intended or will stay as God intended forever. God's timeline is much different than ours, as the universe is billions of years old. So the time period, while long to us, is a cosmic blip. Bringing up every bad thing that happens isn't going to damage my faith, as I'm fully aware of the bad things that are happening. In fact, go read Matthew 24 for a list of things that Jesus predicted would happen in the future. Or read 2 Timothy 3 for more info. The bible says things will get worse before they get better, so pointing out all the bad things that occur isn't really productive here.

 

[Henry Ford]

Jesus said there would be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. That helps me in difficult questions like this. The world was ruined with violence. God warned people through Enoch and then Noah and the people didn't listen. If it was an eternal judgment to hellfire for the children and babies that died, then that would seem immoral. If they get another chance (children and infants) through a resurrection, than the judgment doesn't seem too harsh for me. At some level you have faith built on all the GOOD things you've seen from God, and you have faith that the "Judge of all the Earth" is going to do what's right.

Like what?

Blue skies, my wife, my daughter, my son, happiness, food, sex, love, wine, the universe, the earth, our bodies, warmth, snow, the bible, my personal beliefs (a huge component of this list, but I don't need to list them all), science, air, technology, my brain, family, friends, music, God's promises for the future. That's just a quick few that I can quickly type in 2 minutes. There are many, many more but the point is that God has provided a great overall world that man has screwed up. I don't blame God for the evils that are in the world, as most of them are caused by man, imo.

Did god also create earthquakes and tornadoes and hurricanes and droughts and the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs?

I'm struggling to see where this conversation is going. The name of the thread is "

Can you explain why you have faith in your religion?"Yet, we seem to be at a point where the non-believers are beginning to try and poke holes in people's feelings about life and the world in general.

Just so we are clear, I don't believe this world is as God intended or will stay as God intended forever. God's timeline is much different than ours, as the universe is billions of years old. So the time period, while long to us, is a cosmic blip. Bringing up every bad thing that happens isn't going to damage my faith, as I'm fully aware of the bad things that are happening. In fact, go read Matthew 24 for a list of things that Jesus predicted would happen in the future. Or read 2 Timothy 3 for more info. The bible says things will get worse before they get better, so pointing out all the bad things that occur isn't really productive here.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm not trying to poke holes in your beliefs. I was in a conversation with Joe about one of the main issues I struggle with, and you jumped into the conversation trying to respond. I'm happy to drop it, but I'm not trying to poke holes in your theories, I'm expressing why your explanations don't make any headway with me.

 

[shader]

i think my above question is key

if god is not all knowing, then perhaps he created man knowing man could screw up but not knowing he would

but if god knows the future, god knew when he created man all the screwups involved, and decided to create him anyway...then the screwups are on god as much as man

I have not met many who think that man can do anything god did not know man was going to do.

I don't believe God actively searches out to see all of the future, no. There is a difference in having the ability, and doing so. For instance, if there is a God that created the universe, he could rightly be called All-Powerful, right? But that doesn't require the use of unlimited power all the time or else the universe wouldn't remain stable but would be flooded with unlimited power.

Earlier I posted some scriptures about Abraham's conversation with Yahweh/Jehovah about Sodom and Gomorrah. Read Genesis 18:20,21. It appears that God went to investigate the matter at Sodom and Gomorrah and actively examined the hearts of the people. If he already decided that they were going to sin, because he had hard-coded it into the future, than that entire act would have been a big charade. There are many other examples too.

The matter of free will is a deep subject that has had a lot written about it. But God was happy with his creation of Adam and Eve, and so I'd guess that He hadn't at that point looked into the future to see what would happen. I realize that this isn't a normal view, but it makes sense to me.

 

[shader]

Jesus said there would be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. That helps me in difficult questions like this. The world was ruined with violence. God warned people through Enoch and then Noah and the people didn't listen. If it was an eternal judgment to hellfire for the children and babies that died, then that would seem immoral. If they get another chance (children and infants) through a resurrection, than the judgment doesn't seem too harsh for me. At some level you have faith built on all the GOOD things you've seen from God, and you have faith that the "Judge of all the Earth" is going to do what's right.

Like what?

Blue skies, my wife, my daughter, my son, happiness, food, sex, love, wine, the universe, the earth, our bodies, warmth, snow, the bible, my personal beliefs (a huge component of this list, but I don't need to list them all), science, air, technology, my brain, family, friends, music, God's promises for the future. That's just a quick few that I can quickly type in 2 minutes. There are many, many more but the point is that God has provided a great overall world that man has screwed up. I don't blame God for the evils that are in the world, as most of them are caused by man, imo.

Did god also create earthquakes and tornadoes and hurricanes and droughts and the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs?

I'm struggling to see where this conversation is going. The name of the thread is "

Can you explain why you have faith in your religion?"Yet, we seem to be at a point where the non-believers are beginning to try and poke holes in people's feelings about life and the world in general.

Just so we are clear, I don't believe this world is as God intended or will stay as God intended forever. God's timeline is much different than ours, as the universe is billions of years old. So the time period, while long to us, is a cosmic blip. Bringing up every bad thing that happens isn't going to damage my faith, as I'm fully aware of the bad things that are happening. In fact, go read Matthew 24 for a list of things that Jesus predicted would happen in the future. Or read 2 Timothy 3 for more info. The bible says things will get worse before they get better, so pointing out all the bad things that occur isn't really productive here.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm not trying to poke holes in your beliefs. I was in a conversation with Joe about one of the main issues I struggle with, and you jumped into the conversation trying to respond. I'm happy to drop it, but I'm not trying to poke holes in your theories, I'm expressing why your explanations don't make any headway with me.

no problem, I suppose I did butt in.

 

[The Commish]

The simple solution to me is that maybe organized religion should get out of the business of creating laws telling people how to live their lives and focus more on living harmoniously with each other and getting closer to god.

Can you explain this....which organized religion is creating laws? If you want to argue that the politicians had no business constructing the laws as they have, you probably won't get much push back. Is that what you mean?

Does Christianity not tell people things like being gay is a sin or having an abortion is a sin? That's what I mean by a law, not actual government legislation. Although many of them DO stick their nose into the government. Prop 8 in California passed basically because it was funded by the Mormons for example.

My point was religion should stick to worshipping their higher power of choice and not be in the business of telling people what to do with their bodies.

Homosexual sex is specified in the Bible. The opinions on abortion stem from "thou shall not kill". Not sure I've ever heard anyone refer to abortion as a "sin" though. The rest of what you say is a bit odd. Just because a person is religious doesn't mean they don't have a say in government. That's not how it works. I tend to agree that no one should be more concerned with other people and what they are doing over being concerned with themselves and what they are doing.

 

[B-Deep]

Jesus said there would be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. That helps me in difficult questions like this. The world was ruined with violence. God warned people through Enoch and then Noah and the people didn't listen. If it was an eternal judgment to hellfire for the children and babies that died, then that would seem immoral. If they get another chance (children and infants) through a resurrection, than the judgment doesn't seem too harsh for me. At some level you have faith built on all the GOOD things you've seen from God, and you have faith that the "Judge of all the Earth" is going to do what's right.

Like what?

Blue skies, my wife, my daughter, my son, happiness, food, sex, love, wine, the universe, the earth, our bodies, warmth, snow, the bible, my personal beliefs (a huge component of this list, but I don't need to list them all), science, air, technology, my brain, family, friends, music, God's promises for the future. That's just a quick few that I can quickly type in 2 minutes. There are many, many more but the point is that God has provided a great overall world that man has screwed up. I don't blame God for the evils that are in the world, as most of them are caused by man, imo.

Did god also create earthquakes and tornadoes and hurricanes and droughts and the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs?

I'm struggling to see where this conversation is going. The name of the thread is "

Can you explain why you have faith in your religion?"Yet, we seem to be at a point where the non-believers are beginning to try and poke holes in people's feelings about life and the world in general.

Just so we are clear, I don't believe this world is as God intended or will stay as God intended forever. God's timeline is much different than ours, as the universe is billions of years old. So the time period, while long to us, is a cosmic blip. Bringing up every bad thing that happens isn't going to damage my faith, as I'm fully aware of the bad things that are happening. In fact, go read Matthew 24 for a list of things that Jesus predicted would happen in the future. Or read 2 Timothy 3 for more info. The bible says things will get worse before they get better, so pointing out all the bad things that occur isn't really productive here.

that is fine, and i am not one who thinks that all christains need to believe the same thing. On the contrary i think all faith and all belief should be highly indiviualized

but your view, if i am reading it right. is not what i hear most often

if this is not what god intended that would be the same as not in god's plan. It seems to imply some limits on god if man is able to act in ways that god did not or could not account for. all the time someone passes and people say "it was all part of god's plans". Some people have trouble with a god whose plan includes the horrible as well as the beautiful

and i think that's a core of the faith question.

I think why you are getting questions is some of what you say is atypical, but that should not be taken as an insult in the least bit. I encourage atypical beliefs

 

[B-Deep]

i think my above question is key

if god is not all knowing, then perhaps he created man knowing man could screw up but not knowing he would

but if god knows the future, god knew when he created man all the screwups involved, and decided to create him anyway...then the screwups are on god as much as man

I have not met many who think that man can do anything god did not know man was going to do.

I don't believe God actively searches out to see all of the future, no. There is a difference in having the ability, and doing so. For instance, if there is a God that created the universe, he could rightly be called All-Powerful, right? But that doesn't require the use of unlimited power all the time or else the universe wouldn't remain stable but would be flooded with unlimited power.

Earlier I posted some scriptures about Abraham's conversation with Yahweh/Jehovah about Sodom and Gomorrah. Read Genesis 18:20,21. It appears that God went to investigate the matter at Sodom and Gomorrah and actively examined the hearts of the people. If he already decided that they were going to sin, because he had hard-coded it into the future, than that entire act would have been a big charade. There are many other examples too.

The matter of free will is a deep subject that has had a lot written about it. But God was happy with his creation of Adam and Eve, and so I'd guess that He hadn't at that point looked into the future to see what would happen. I realize that this isn't a normal view, but it makes sense to me.

if there is a God that created the universe, he could rightly be called All-Powerful, right?

I actually do not agree. I can envision a god that could start a big bang and not know or be able to control every aspect of what happens. but i am an outlier there.

but, overall your view makes a lot more sense to me than an all knowing all powerful god who is love and created man knowing that man would sin and knowing the consequences.

 

[B-Deep]

the beautiful thing about faith, though,is you may be right or wrong as may I, as may an atheist or a buddhist

and maybe perhaps we all are, though i am not sure i could explain how

 

[shader]

Jesus said there would be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. That helps me in difficult questions like this. The world was ruined with violence. God warned people through Enoch and then Noah and the people didn't listen. If it was an eternal judgment to hellfire for the children and babies that died, then that would seem immoral. If they get another chance (children and infants) through a resurrection, than the judgment doesn't seem too harsh for me. At some level you have faith built on all the GOOD things you've seen from God, and you have faith that the "Judge of all the Earth" is going to do what's right.

Like what?

Blue skies, my wife, my daughter, my son, happiness, food, sex, love, wine, the universe, the earth, our bodies, warmth, snow, the bible, my personal beliefs (a huge component of this list, but I don't need to list them all), science, air, technology, my brain, family, friends, music, God's promises for the future. That's just a quick few that I can quickly type in 2 minutes. There are many, many more but the point is that God has provided a great overall world that man has screwed up. I don't blame God for the evils that are in the world, as most of them are caused by man, imo.

Did god also create earthquakes and tornadoes and hurricanes and droughts and the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs?

I'm struggling to see where this conversation is going. The name of the thread is "

Can you explain why you have faith in your religion?"Yet, we seem to be at a point where the non-believers are beginning to try and poke holes in people's feelings about life and the world in general.

Just so we are clear, I don't believe this world is as God intended or will stay as God intended forever. God's timeline is much different than ours, as the universe is billions of years old. So the time period, while long to us, is a cosmic blip. Bringing up every bad thing that happens isn't going to damage my faith, as I'm fully aware of the bad things that are happening. In fact, go read Matthew 24 for a list of things that Jesus predicted would happen in the future. Or read 2 Timothy 3 for more info. The bible says things will get worse before they get better, so pointing out all the bad things that occur isn't really productive here.

that is fine, and i am not one who thinks that all christains need to believe the same thing. On the contrary i think all faith and all belief should be highly indiviualized

but your view, if i am reading it right. is not what i hear most often

if this is not what god intended that would be the same as not in god's plan. It seems to imply some limits on god if man is able to act in ways that god did not or could not account for. all the time someone passes and people say "it was all part of god's plans". Some people have trouble with a god whose plan includes the horrible as well as the beautiful

and i think that's a core of the faith question.

I think why you are getting questions is some of what you say is atypical, but that should not be taken as an insult in the least bit. I encourage atypical beliefs

 

[KCitons]

The simple solution to me is that maybe organized religion should get out of the business of creating laws telling people how to live their lives and focus more on living harmoniously with each other and getting closer to god.

Can you explain this....which organized religion is creating laws? If you want to argue that the politicians had no business constructing the laws as they have, you probably won't get much push back. Is that what you mean?

Does Christianity not tell people things like being gay is a sin or having an abortion is a sin? That's what I mean by a law, not actual government legislation. Although many of them DO stick their nose into the government. Prop 8 in California passed basically because it was funded by the Mormons for example.

My point was religion should stick to worshipping their higher power of choice and not be in the business of telling people what to do with their bodies.

Homosexual sex is specified in the Bible. The opinions on abortion stem from "thou shall not kill". Not sure I've ever heard anyone refer to abortion as a "sin" though. The rest of what you say is a bit odd. Just because a person is religious doesn't mean they don't have a say in government. That's not how it works. I tend to agree that no one should be more concerned with other people and what they are doing over being concerned with themselves and what they are doing.

Where is "thou shalt not create"? Why the negative stance on stem cell research.

 

[Joe T]

oof

 

[cstu]

The bible says things will get worse before they get better, so pointing out all the bad things that occur isn't really productive here.

The logic of this from an omnipotent being doesn't bother you?

 

[mr roboto]

Why am I a Christian? This is going to sound trite and typical to non-believers, but it's the answer.

When I trusted in Christ for salvation and submitted my will to God's will my life changed. When I did the things the Bible says will bring joy and peace, they work. When I do the things the Bible says will bring unhappiness and strife, they do. The drastic change in my life and in many of my family's and friend's lives is the most compelling reason I believe that God exists and Jesus is who he says he is.

I'm never going to be intellectually satisfied with any belief system. At times I've personally rejected certain doctrines like Biblical Innerancy, God's complete Sovereignty, the Trinity. I've wrestled very deeply with many of the questions posed in this thread and others on the first page here. I wrestle with singing joyfully in Church on Sunday when I know I'm doubting some of what's taught.

I always come back to Jesus. I trust Him. Who he was, what he did. That has never been in doubt for me. I've built back the doctrines I've doubted by simply going back to Jesus' teachings and seeing if he held those beliefs.

Christianity is not (as we can know it) a completely intellectually satisfying belief system. If that's what you are looking for you won't find it. That's why Scripture says that salvation comes through faith. Faith is NOT an intellectual word in that context. It's a relational word meaning trust.

I trust Jesus. Honestly and unapologetically. And I really can't claim perfect knowledge beyond that.

 

[cstu]

When I did the things the Bible says will bring joy and peace, they work. When I do the things the Bible says will bring unhappiness and strife, they do.

Interesting, the less I've attended church and paid attention to the Bible the better my life got.

 

[The Commish]

Jesus said there would be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. That helps me in difficult questions like this. The world was ruined with violence. God warned people through Enoch and then Noah and the people didn't listen. If it was an eternal judgment to hellfire for the children and babies that died, then that would seem immoral. If they get another chance (children and infants) through a resurrection, than the judgment doesn't seem too harsh for me. At some level you have faith built on all the GOOD things you've seen from God, and you have faith that the "Judge of all the Earth" is going to do what's right.

Like what?

Blue skies, my wife, my daughter, my son, happiness, food, sex, love, wine, the universe, the earth, our bodies, warmth, snow, the bible, my personal beliefs (a huge component of this list, but I don't need to list them all), science, air, technology, my brain, family, friends, music, God's promises for the future. That's just a quick few that I can quickly type in 2 minutes. There are many, many more but the point is that God has provided a great overall world that man has screwed up. I don't blame God for the evils that are in the world, as most of them are caused by man, imo.

Did god also create earthquakes and tornadoes and hurricanes and droughts and the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs?

I'm struggling to see where this conversation is going. The name of the thread is "

Can you explain why you have faith in your religion?"Yet, we seem to be at a point where the non-believers are beginning to try and poke holes in people's feelings about life and the world in general.

Just so we are clear, I don't believe this world is as God intended or will stay as God intended forever. God's timeline is much different than ours, as the universe is billions of years old. So the time period, while long to us, is a cosmic blip. Bringing up every bad thing that happens isn't going to damage my faith, as I'm fully aware of the bad things that are happening. In fact, go read Matthew 24 for a list of things that Jesus predicted would happen in the future. Or read 2 Timothy 3 for more info. The bible says things will get worse before they get better, so pointing out all the bad things that occur isn't really productive here.

that is fine, and i am not one who thinks that all christains need to believe the same thing. On the contrary i think all faith and all belief should be highly indiviualized

but your view, if i am reading it right. is not what i hear most often

if this is not what god intended that would be the same as not in god's plan. It seems to imply some limits on god if man is able to act in ways that god did not or could not account for. all the time someone passes and people say "it was all part of god's plans". Some people have trouble with a god whose plan includes the horrible as well as the beautiful

and i think that's a core of the faith question.

I think why you are getting questions is some of what you say is atypical, but that should not be taken as an insult in the least bit. I encourage atypical beliefs

This discussion always intrigues me when I watch folks having it. Word study on this topic of "omniscience" has lead me to a different belief than a lot of folks. IMO, most people go further than necessary in their assertions on this topic. Greg Boyd probably sums it up best for me. If God creates all the scenarios a person faces along with all the consequences/rewards, it's immaterial if he knows which choice you actually make, no? He's still going to know everything. Now this becomes problematic for those that believe he's pulling on the strings of every aspect of our lives but that belief is in direct conflict with "free will".

 

[datonn]

This discussion always intrigues me when I watch folks having it. Word study on this topic of "omniscience" has lead me to a different belief than a lot of folks. IMO, most people go further than necessary in their assertions on this topic. Greg Boyd probably sums it up best for me. If God creates all the scenarios a person faces along with all the consequences/rewards, it's immaterial if he knows which choice you actually make, no? He's still going to know everything. Now this becomes problematic for those that believe he's pulling on the strings of every aspect of our lives but that belief is in direct conflict with "free will".

Greg Boyd was my theology and apologetics professor as an undergrad in college, back when dinosaurs still roamed the Earth. Took a summer session class with him too...with only 4-5 other students in the class, so I got to know him well. I always thought he was spiritually/intellectually put together better than almost anyone else I knew. Brilliant man. Borderline INSANE at the same time (i.e. running ultra-marathons), LOL. But his mind would get so far ahead of his mouth that he'd sometimes struggle with studdering or tripping over his own words. One of the best professors I had...though he was later effectively run out of the college for his (lack of) stance related to homosexuality.

 

[mr roboto]

This discussion always intrigues me when I watch folks having it. Word study on this topic of "omniscience" has lead me to a different belief than a lot of folks. IMO, most people go further than necessary in their assertions on this topic. Greg Boyd probably sums it up best for me. If God creates all the scenarios a person faces along with all the consequences/rewards, it's immaterial if he knows which choice you actually make, no? He's still going to know everything. Now this becomes problematic for those that believe he's pulling on the strings of every aspect of our lives but that belief is in direct conflict with "free will".

Greg Boyd was my theology and apologetics professor as an undergrad in college, back when dinosaurs still roamed the Earth. Took a summer session class with him too...with only 4-5 other students in the class, so I got to know him well. I always thought he was spiritually/intellectually put together better than almost anyone else I knew. Brilliant man. Borderline INSANE at the same time (i.e. running ultra-marathons), LOL. But his mind would get so far ahead of his mouth that he'd sometimes struggle with studdering or tripping over his own words. One of the best professors I had...though he was later effectively run out of the college for his (lack of) stance related to homosexuality.

Boyd was my theology prof. The year before he left. He wasn't run out for his lack of stance on that. It was the Open Theism controversy.

 

[matuski]

Jesus said there would be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. That helps me in difficult questions like this. The world was ruined with violence. God warned people through Enoch and then Noah and the people didn't listen. If it was an eternal judgment to hellfire for the children and babies that died, then that would seem immoral. If they get another chance (children and infants) through a resurrection, than the judgment doesn't seem too harsh for me. At some level you have faith built on all the GOOD things you've seen from God, and you have faith that the "Judge of all the Earth" is going to do what's right.

Like what?

Blue skies, my wife, my daughter, my son, happiness, food, sex, love, wine, the universe, the earth, our bodies, warmth, snow, the bible, my personal beliefs (a huge component of this list, but I don't need to list them all), science, air, technology, my brain, family, friends, music, God's promises for the future. That's just a quick few that I can quickly type in 2 minutes. There are many, many more but the point is that God has provided a great overall world that man has screwed up. I don't blame God for the evils that are in the world, as most of them are caused by man, imo.

Did god also create earthquakes and tornadoes and hurricanes and droughts and the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs?

I'm struggling to see where this conversation is going. The name of the thread is "

Can you explain why you have faith in your religion?"Yet, we seem to be at a point where the non-believers are beginning to try and poke holes in people's feelings about life and the world in general.

Just so we are clear, I don't believe this world is as God intended or will stay as God intended forever. God's timeline is much different than ours, as the universe is billions of years old. So the time period, while long to us, is a cosmic blip. Bringing up every bad thing that happens isn't going to damage my faith, as I'm fully aware of the bad things that are happening. In fact, go read Matthew 24 for a list of things that Jesus predicted would happen in the future. Or read 2 Timothy 3 for more info. The bible says things will get worse before they get better, so pointing out all the bad things that occur isn't really productive here.

Nobody is poking holes in your feelings, unless you allow them to.

We are observing the fact that there are holes in your logic.

 

[Stinger Ray]

Jesus said there would be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. That helps me in difficult questions like this. The world was ruined with violence. God warned people through Enoch and then Noah and the people didn't listen. If it was an eternal judgment to hellfire for the children and babies that died, then that would seem immoral. If they get another chance (children and infants) through a resurrection, than the judgment doesn't seem too harsh for me. At some level you have faith built on all the GOOD things you've seen from God, and you have faith that the "Judge of all the Earth" is going to do what's right.

Like what?

Blue skies, my wife, my daughter, my son, happiness, food, sex, love, wine, the universe, the earth, our bodies, warmth, snow, the bible, my personal beliefs (a huge component of this list, but I don't need to list them all), science, air, technology, my brain, family, friends, music, God's promises for the future. That's just a quick few that I can quickly type in 2 minutes. There are many, many more but the point is that God has provided a great overall world that man has screwed up. I don't blame God for the evils that are in the world, as most of them are caused by man, imo.

Did god also create earthquakes and tornadoes and hurricanes and droughts and the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs?

I'm struggling to see where this conversation is going. The name of the thread is "

Can you explain why you have faith in your religion?"Yet, we seem to be at a point where the non-believers are beginning to try and poke holes in people's feelings about life and the world in general.

Just so we are clear, I don't believe this world is as God intended or will stay as God intended forever. God's timeline is much different than ours, as the universe is billions of years old. So the time period, while long to us, is a cosmic blip. Bringing up every bad thing that happens isn't going to damage my faith, as I'm fully aware of the bad things that are happening. In fact, go read Matthew 24 for a list of things that Jesus predicted would happen in the future. Or read 2 Timothy 3 for more info. The bible says things will get worse before they get better, so pointing out all the bad things that occur isn't really productive here.

Nobody is poking holes in your feelings, unless you allow them to.

We are observing the fact that there are holes in your logic.

Who cares?

 

[Stinger Ray]

When I did the things the Bible says will bring joy and peace, they work. When I do the things the Bible says will bring unhappiness and strife, they do.

Interesting, the less I've attended church and paid attention to the Bible the better my life got.

That is great!