Can you explain why you have faith in your religion? (13 Viewers)

[datonn]

This discussion always intrigues me when I watch folks having it. Word study on this topic of "omniscience" has lead me to a different belief than a lot of folks. IMO, most people go further than necessary in their assertions on this topic. Greg Boyd probably sums it up best for me. If God creates all the scenarios a person faces along with all the consequences/rewards, it's immaterial if he knows which choice you actually make, no? He's still going to know everything. Now this becomes problematic for those that believe he's pulling on the strings of every aspect of our lives but that belief is in direct conflict with "free will".

Greg Boyd was my theology and apologetics professor as an undergrad in college, back when dinosaurs still roamed the Earth. Took a summer session class with him too...with only 4-5 other students in the class, so I got to know him well. I always thought he was spiritually/intellectually put together better than almost anyone else I knew. Brilliant man. Borderline INSANE at the same time (i.e. running ultra-marathons), LOL. But his mind would get so far ahead of his mouth that he'd sometimes struggle with studdering or tripping over his own words. One of the best professors I had...though he was later effectively run out of the college for his (lack of) stance related to homosexuality.

Boyd was my theology prof. The year before he left. He wasn't run out for his lack of stance on that. It was the Open Theism controversy.

My wife, who grew up Catholic, always loved it when I told her stories about after I left that institution to work at a Catholic university in the 1990s. How many of my co-workers were concerned...my leaving the institution (church?), hoping I would find a few Christians at said Catholic university. Since you know, Catholics fill their minds with SO many extra rules, regulations, and hokus-pokus that aren't even close to being biblical, that Catholicism barely even resembles Scripture after a while...

 

[Henry Ford]

Jesus said there would be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. That helps me in difficult questions like this. The world was ruined with violence. God warned people through Enoch and then Noah and the people didn't listen. If it was an eternal judgment to hellfire for the children and babies that died, then that would seem immoral. If they get another chance (children and infants) through a resurrection, than the judgment doesn't seem too harsh for me. At some level you have faith built on all the GOOD things you've seen from God, and you have faith that the "Judge of all the Earth" is going to do what's right.

Like what?

Blue skies, my wife, my daughter, my son, happiness, food, sex, love, wine, the universe, the earth, our bodies, warmth, snow, the bible, my personal beliefs (a huge component of this list, but I don't need to list them all), science, air, technology, my brain, family, friends, music, God's promises for the future. That's just a quick few that I can quickly type in 2 minutes. There are many, many more but the point is that God has provided a great overall world that man has screwed up. I don't blame God for the evils that are in the world, as most of them are caused by man, imo.

Did god also create earthquakes and tornadoes and hurricanes and droughts and the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs?

I'm struggling to see where this conversation is going. The name of the thread is "

Can you explain why you have faith in your religion?"Yet, we seem to be at a point where the non-believers are beginning to try and poke holes in people's feelings about life and the world in general.

Just so we are clear, I don't believe this world is as God intended or will stay as God intended forever. God's timeline is much different than ours, as the universe is billions of years old. So the time period, while long to us, is a cosmic blip. Bringing up every bad thing that happens isn't going to damage my faith, as I'm fully aware of the bad things that are happening. In fact, go read Matthew 24 for a list of things that Jesus predicted would happen in the future. Or read 2 Timothy 3 for more info. The bible says things will get worse before they get better, so pointing out all the bad things that occur isn't really productive here.

Nobody is poking holes in your feelings, unless you allow them to.

We are observing the fact that there are holes in your logic.

Who cares?

I do. He was originally responding to something I said, and trying to refute it. If there are holes in his logic, it doesn't really refute anything.

"I don't care, I believe anyway" is fine, and anyone's welcome to say that - but if you want to argue logically about something I'm saying while using logic full of holes, I guess I should be the one responding with the question "who cares?"

 

[shader]

Jesus said there would be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. That helps me in difficult questions like this. The world was ruined with violence. God warned people through Enoch and then Noah and the people didn't listen. If it was an eternal judgment to hellfire for the children and babies that died, then that would seem immoral. If they get another chance (children and infants) through a resurrection, than the judgment doesn't seem too harsh for me. At some level you have faith built on all the GOOD things you've seen from God, and you have faith that the "Judge of all the Earth" is going to do what's right.

Like what?

Blue skies, my wife, my daughter, my son, happiness, food, sex, love, wine, the universe, the earth, our bodies, warmth, snow, the bible, my personal beliefs (a huge component of this list, but I don't need to list them all), science, air, technology, my brain, family, friends, music, God's promises for the future. That's just a quick few that I can quickly type in 2 minutes. There are many, many more but the point is that God has provided a great overall world that man has screwed up. I don't blame God for the evils that are in the world, as most of them are caused by man, imo.

Did god also create earthquakes and tornadoes and hurricanes and droughts and the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs?

I'm struggling to see where this conversation is going. The name of the thread is "

Can you explain why you have faith in your religion?"Yet, we seem to be at a point where the non-believers are beginning to try and poke holes in people's feelings about life and the world in general.

Just so we are clear, I don't believe this world is as God intended or will stay as God intended forever. God's timeline is much different than ours, as the universe is billions of years old. So the time period, while long to us, is a cosmic blip. Bringing up every bad thing that happens isn't going to damage my faith, as I'm fully aware of the bad things that are happening. In fact, go read Matthew 24 for a list of things that Jesus predicted would happen in the future. Or read 2 Timothy 3 for more info. The bible says things will get worse before they get better, so pointing out all the bad things that occur isn't really productive here.

Nobody is poking holes in your feelings, unless you allow them to.

We are observing the fact that there are holes in your logic.

Well I don't agree with that. But then, I didn't expect a group of atheists to agree with the bible.

 

[Otis]

Why am I a Christian? This is going to sound trite and typical to non-believers, but it's the answer.

When I trusted in Christ for salvation and submitted my will to God's will my life changed.

Let me stop you right here. This is my fundamental question in this thread. You weren't just born this way. At some point you DECIDED to trust in christ and submit your will to god. My question is when and why? That's at the heart of the thread premise. Were you taught that by your parents? Did you grow up in an atheist household but get curious on your own, read up at a library, and decide this was for you? Were you handed a religion menu and chose this one as opposed to others?

 

[mr roboto]

Why am I a Christian? This is going to sound trite and typical to non-believers, but it's the answer.

When I trusted in Christ for salvation and submitted my will to God's will my life changed.

Let me stop you right here. This is my fundamental question in this thread. You weren't just born this way. At some point you DECIDED to trust in christ and submit your will to god. My question is when and why? That's at the heart of the thread premise. Were you taught that by your parents? Did you grow up in an atheist household but get curious on your own, read up at a library, and decide this was for you? Were you handed a religion menu and chose this one as opposed to others?

I grew up in a nominal Christian home. I believed a little growing up but didn't really make it a personal thing until college. But yes, I did grow up around the Christian religion.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Jesus said there would be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. That helps me in difficult questions like this. The world was ruined with violence. God warned people through Enoch and then Noah and the people didn't listen. If it was an eternal judgment to hellfire for the children and babies that died, then that would seem immoral. If they get another chance (children and infants) through a resurrection, than the judgment doesn't seem too harsh for me. At some level you have faith built on all the GOOD things you've seen from God, and you have faith that the "Judge of all the Earth" is going to do what's right.

Like what?

Blue skies, my wife, my daughter, my son, happiness, food, sex, love, wine, the universe, the earth, our bodies, warmth, snow, the bible, my personal beliefs (a huge component of this list, but I don't need to list them all), science, air, technology, my brain, family, friends, music, God's promises for the future. That's just a quick few that I can quickly type in 2 minutes. There are many, many more but the point is that God has provided a great overall world that man has screwed up. I don't blame God for the evils that are in the world, as most of them are caused by man, imo.

Did god also create earthquakes and tornadoes and hurricanes and droughts and the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs?

I'm struggling to see where this conversation is going. The name of the thread is "

Can you explain why you have faith in your religion?"Yet, we seem to be at a point where the non-believers are beginning to try and poke holes in people's feelings about life and the world in general.

Just so we are clear, I don't believe this world is as God intended or will stay as God intended forever. God's timeline is much different than ours, as the universe is billions of years old. So the time period, while long to us, is a cosmic blip. Bringing up every bad thing that happens isn't going to damage my faith, as I'm fully aware of the bad things that are happening. In fact, go read Matthew 24 for a list of things that Jesus predicted would happen in the future. Or read 2 Timothy 3 for more info. The bible says things will get worse before they get better, so pointing out all the bad things that occur isn't really productive here.

Nobody is poking holes in your feelings, unless you allow them to.

We are observing the fact that there are holes in your logic.

Well I don't agree with that. But then, I didn't expect a group of atheists to agree with the bible.

It kinda seems like christians don't agree with the bible when it makes their religion unappealing.

 

[Otis]

Why am I a Christian? This is going to sound trite and typical to non-believers, but it's the answer.

When I trusted in Christ for salvation and submitted my will to God's will my life changed.

Let me stop you right here. This is my fundamental question in this thread. You weren't just born this way. At some point you DECIDED to trust in christ and submit your will to god. My question is when and why? That's at the heart of the thread premise. Were you taught that by your parents? Did you grow up in an atheist household but get curious on your own, read up at a library, and decide this was for you? Were you handed a religion menu and chose this one as opposed to others?

I grew up in a nominal Christian home. I believed a little growing up but didn't really make it a personal thing until college. But yes, I did grow up around the Christian religion.

Do you recall any epiphany, and flash-of-genius moment, that made you conclude you would put your faith in this god you were learning about? Or was it just sort of all you had known, and so you just believed because that's what people did or were supposed to do? Or was it something different?

 

[KCitons]

I wonder what would have happened, had I asked if the family could forgo Sunday mass and take in a baptist ceremony, or check out what's happening at the neighborhood synagogue. (I can't even say for certain if there was a mosque in Omaha in the 1970's)

I probably would have been sent to me room to recite 10 hail mary's as a penance.

 

[datonn]

Why am I a Christian? This is going to sound trite and typical to non-believers, but it's the answer.

When I trusted in Christ for salvation and submitted my will to God's will my life changed.

Let me stop you right here. This is my fundamental question in this thread. You weren't just born this way. At some point you DECIDED to trust in christ and submit your will to god. My question is when and why? That's at the heart of the thread premise. Were you taught that by your parents? Did you grow up in an atheist household but get curious on your own, read up at a library, and decide this was for you? Were you handed a religion menu and chose this one as opposed to others?

I grew up in a Christian home. Mom and Dad played a prominent role in our church, though I think for my Dad, it was "what you do" (the same church he grew up in, his parents grew up in, etc.). While for my Mom, it was "believe, or burn in hell for eternity." Got that from her mom (my other grandmother), who was a racist and a bigot, among other endearing qualities. Since my Dad wasn't really that interested in me growing up (I was a "dependent," more than his son...sigh), my Mom put the full-court press on my sister and I related to "whatever you gotta do to not spend eternity in hell." So I believed, because I was scared into believing.

Then when I got to college, let's just say that I was unwillingly exposed to "spiritual warfare." Had previous experience with "sixth sense" types of things my whole childhood. But in college, I was exposed to what I can only say was "demonic." Was alone in my freshman dorm's bathroom one night (Nelson Hall second floor, for Mr. Roboto), just brushing my teeth and washing my face, when I was overcome by such a strong presence of evil that it literally knocked the wind out of me and I couldn't move my arms or legs. I just half-stood there, slumped over the sink, trying to gasp for breath...while "feeling" (sensing) the presence of the most awful being I have ever felt. Crouching at the corner where the wall above one of the toilet stalls met the ceiling. ~8-9 feet off the ground. The same experience one of my professors had in his office/studio on-campus one day that same semester...and the same experience one of my friends had in the school's gymnasium mere weeks after my own (though none of us talked about it until after college, or knew it happened to anyone else). The rest of that year, and the rest of my time in/after college, I was "haunted" by evil. Driving on 694, walking down Nicollet Mall in Minneapolis, etc. For some reason, I became a "target" for some pretty nasty, non-human stuff.

I remember thinking one day, after this went on for years: "If I pull back/away from God a bit...pretend none of it is real, maybe it'll go away and get better." So I did. And it did. "Sixth sense" types of experiences persisted well into my 30s (though I've had VERY few experiences the past 4-5 years). But I stopped attending church services regularly. Stopped leading Bible studies. Etc. And that dark "evil" left me alone...for the most part. I know God exists. I know evil exists as well...I've seen/felt it, not 15 feet away. I know death is not the end...as I've seen/communicated with people who've died. But the less "religious" of a life I've lived, the less I've been tormented by whatever it/that is.

So, full-circle...I never "chose" to believe in God! It was never a choice for me...as it'd be like saying that I chose to believe the Earth orbits the Sun, or that humans need air to breathe (it just is). I was scared into believing it all as a young kid, but then I was hit between the eyes with a 2x4 with it all as a young adult. That all said, I haven't feared death for years. Death, whenever it comes, seems as though it will be more "vacation" or "relief" than an end or sad. What does scare me? Evil. Not your resident FFA armchair QB tough-guy who cares more about their next beer/lay than their neighbor. I'm talking evil so powerful that even being in "its" presence can knock the wind out of you. So much so that it has consciously kept me at arm's length from God these past ~20 years. Not in my faith/belief! Rather, my being a coward for fearing what might happen (again) if I got up to my chin in affecting positive change within an organized religious community (aka church). I do what I can from "outside those walls!" But between my wanting to rage against the machine every time I hear ignorant people telling/preaching lies, and my fear of being harassed by whatever "it" is again, I've kept my distance.

So to answer Otis' question, it's never been a choice to/for me. Rather, it's more that it chose me. If that makes any sense. Believe me, life would be a whole lot easier/happier if I could just believe that all that's out there are things I can capture on audio/video, or that the only evil in the world is the actions of selfish, self-centered, self-absorbed ###holes.

Speaking of ###holes, me bearing my soul like that means it's about time to send in the clowns. So I'll head out for a while...go try and (fail to) jump two rocks 15-20 feet apart from a standing start and guess how many fingers they're holding up in front of their monitors (I'm holding up one, FWIW...lol).

 

[mr roboto]

Otis, I did grow up predominantly around either non-religious or religious Christians. As a young child, it was just something I assumed was true. By the time I made it to High School I realized there were atheists, other faiths etc. but living in a very small town I didn't get exposed to a bunch of other faiths personally.

I actually wanted to run away from my childhood faith when I left home. I wasn't living like I believed any of it and thought it was something I would just outgrow. But I had never actually trusted Christ. I just believed that the stories were probably true. The real 'epiphany' came when I actually trusted, not just intellectually believed. That's when I started to experience the peace, changed perspective on life, freedom from some stuff I was wrestling with (anxiety and some related self-medication).

 

[Henry Ford]

Datonn: and I don't mean this rudely, and I'm not questioning your experience. Do you find that people who are religious believe in your experience or think you had a psychological issue? And do you ever wonder if what happened to you was 'evil' or a psychological/psychiatric issue?

I've often wondered - especially as someone prone to panic attacks - if that feeling of dread and awfulness would present itself differently to me if I were religious or if it's something very different that feels 'evil.'. And even more I wonder why believers don't jump at these experiences and day it's the devil, but rather say it's a psychiatric episode. Just seeing if that was your experience or if you got support for your interpretation from the religious people you know.

 

[Nipsey]

datonn - your post describes something like chronic hallucinatory psychosis. You've talked in the past about stuff from your childhood, I think to have these types of demonic hallucinations would be about right for someone dealing with something like this who grew up in a super religious home. There are all kinds of things that could trigger an episode. Most of the time someone dealing with these types of disorders would be asymptomatic so you'd have to believe that what you're seeing is real because you're otherwise fine. I have no doubt you believe you saw that thing in the bathroom but it's no divine coincidence that as soon as you pulled back from religion that these occurrences have slowed. Thanks for sharing that post, it's interesting stuff. I'm guessing it would take a lot these for something to trigger an episode for you now. It would be fascinating to see if the episodes returned if you got back in deep with the church. I'm not a doctor but I'd guess it would be possible they could. I know this post is frustrating to read because you know what you saw. Sorry about that.

 

[matuski]

Oh come on. Even though you have shared these stories before, I still find it hard to take seriously.

Call me a clown for not buying it, or you seriously need to go talk to someone.

 

[shader]

Jesus said there would be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. That helps me in difficult questions like this. The world was ruined with violence. God warned people through Enoch and then Noah and the people didn't listen. If it was an eternal judgment to hellfire for the children and babies that died, then that would seem immoral. If they get another chance (children and infants) through a resurrection, than the judgment doesn't seem too harsh for me. At some level you have faith built on all the GOOD things you've seen from God, and you have faith that the "Judge of all the Earth" is going to do what's right.

Like what?

Blue skies, my wife, my daughter, my son, happiness, food, sex, love, wine, the universe, the earth, our bodies, warmth, snow, the bible, my personal beliefs (a huge component of this list, but I don't need to list them all), science, air, technology, my brain, family, friends, music, God's promises for the future. That's just a quick few that I can quickly type in 2 minutes. There are many, many more but the point is that God has provided a great overall world that man has screwed up. I don't blame God for the evils that are in the world, as most of them are caused by man, imo.

Did god also create earthquakes and tornadoes and hurricanes and droughts and the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs?

I'm struggling to see where this conversation is going. The name of the thread is "Can you explain why you have faith in your religion?"

Yet, we seem to be at a point where the non-believers are beginning to try and poke holes in people's feelings about life and the world in general.

Just so we are clear, I don't believe this world is as God intended or will stay as God intended forever. God's timeline is much different than ours, as the universe is billions of years old. So the time period, while long to us, is a cosmic blip. Bringing up every bad thing that happens isn't going to damage my faith, as I'm fully aware of the bad things that are happening. In fact, go read Matthew 24 for a list of things that Jesus predicted would happen in the future. Or read 2 Timothy 3 for more info. The bible says things will get worse before they get better, so pointing out all the bad things that occur isn't really productive here.

Nobody is poking holes in your feelings, unless you allow them to.

We are observing the fact that there are holes in your logic.

Well I don't agree with that. But then, I didn't expect a group of atheists to agree with the bible.

It kinda seems like christians don't agree with the bible when it makes their religion unappealing.

Is there a specific time I've done this in this thread? Or are you just throwing out a blanket condemnation?

 

[parasaurolophus]

Jesus said there would be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. That helps me in difficult questions like this. The world was ruined with violence. God warned people through Enoch and then Noah and the people didn't listen. If it was an eternal judgment to hellfire for the children and babies that died, then that would seem immoral. If they get another chance (children and infants) through a resurrection, than the judgment doesn't seem too harsh for me. At some level you have faith built on all the GOOD things you've seen from God, and you have faith that the "Judge of all the Earth" is going to do what's right.

Like what?

Blue skies, my wife, my daughter, my son, happiness, food, sex, love, wine, the universe, the earth, our bodies, warmth, snow, the bible, my personal beliefs (a huge component of this list, but I don't need to list them all), science, air, technology, my brain, family, friends, music, God's promises for the future. That's just a quick few that I can quickly type in 2 minutes. There are many, many more but the point is that God has provided a great overall world that man has screwed up. I don't blame God for the evils that are in the world, as most of them are caused by man, imo.

Did god also create earthquakes and tornadoes and hurricanes and droughts and the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs?

I'm struggling to see where this conversation is going. The name of the thread is "Can you explain why you have faith in your religion?"

Yet, we seem to be at a point where the non-believers are beginning to try and poke holes in people's feelings about life and the world in general.

Just so we are clear, I don't believe this world is as God intended or will stay as God intended forever. God's timeline is much different than ours, as the universe is billions of years old. So the time period, while long to us, is a cosmic blip. Bringing up every bad thing that happens isn't going to damage my faith, as I'm fully aware of the bad things that are happening. In fact, go read Matthew 24 for a list of things that Jesus predicted would happen in the future. Or read 2 Timothy 3 for more info. The bible says things will get worse before they get better, so pointing out all the bad things that occur isn't really productive here.

Nobody is poking holes in your feelings, unless you allow them to.

We are observing the fact that there are holes in your logic.

Well I don't agree with that. But then, I didn't expect a group of atheists to agree with the bible.

It kinda seems like christians don't agree with the bible when it makes their religion unappealing.

Is there a specific time I've done this in this thread? Or are you just throwing out a blanket condemnation?

Nothing specific on your end. Not trying to condemn anybody. Perhaps you believe everything as it is written in the bible.

If that is the case, well then disregard my point.

I take issue with people using the bible as a source, but then dismissing much of what is written in the bible. Most people don't believe Noah built an ark and saved two of everything. That part of the bible is ok to ignore or explain away as a story that is supposed to deliver a greater message or whatever other explanation people want to use. I am not even going to get into the really weird stuff like talking donkeys, skeleton armies, rules about cooking, or abraham since I am not a bible scholar and dont want to get into a debate about the meaning of the word day.

All I am saying is it seems very disingenuous to me to quote a book when it favors a point, but then disregard or morph a book when it is absolutely absurd to believe something else in it.

 

[mr roboto]

Please stop quoting the nested quotes. It's impossible to read on mobile.

 

[shader]

Parasaurolophus, I actually agree with your post. Jesus believed in Adam and the flood. Yet many people believe in Jesus as their savior, but don't believe as he believed. Same with morality and many other things. We may interpret things differently, such as the point about God causing calamity earlier, but if it's in the bible a Christian should believe it.

 

[Otis]

Please stop quoting the nested quotes. It's impossible to read on mobile.

If there really were a god, he'd have made MemphisFoundry fix this long ago.

/thread

 

[The Commish]

This discussion always intrigues me when I watch folks having it. Word study on this topic of "omniscience" has lead me to a different belief than a lot of folks. IMO, most people go further than necessary in their assertions on this topic. Greg Boyd probably sums it up best for me. If God creates all the scenarios a person faces along with all the consequences/rewards, it's immaterial if he knows which choice you actually make, no? He's still going to know everything. Now this becomes problematic for those that believe he's pulling on the strings of every aspect of our lives but that belief is in direct conflict with "free will".

Greg Boyd was my theology and apologetics professor as an undergrad in college, back when dinosaurs still roamed the Earth. Took a summer session class with him too...with only 4-5 other students in the class, so I got to know him well. I always thought he was spiritually/intellectually put together better than almost anyone else I knew. Brilliant man. Borderline INSANE at the same time (i.e. running ultra-marathons), LOL. But his mind would get so far ahead of his mouth that he'd sometimes struggle with studdering or tripping over his own words. One of the best professors I had...though he was later effectively run out of the college for his (lack of) stance related to homosexuality.

This discussion always intrigues me when I watch folks having it. Word study on this topic of "omniscience" has lead me to a different belief than a lot of folks. IMO, most people go further than necessary in their assertions on this topic. Greg Boyd probably sums it up best for me. If God creates all the scenarios a person faces along with all the consequences/rewards, it's immaterial if he knows which choice you actually make, no? He's still going to know everything. Now this becomes problematic for those that believe he's pulling on the strings of every aspect of our lives but that belief is in direct conflict with "free will".

Greg Boyd was my theology and apologetics professor as an undergrad in college, back when dinosaurs still roamed the Earth. Took a summer session class with him too...with only 4-5 other students in the class, so I got to know him well. I always thought he was spiritually/intellectually put together better than almost anyone else I knew. Brilliant man. Borderline INSANE at the same time (i.e. running ultra-marathons), LOL. But his mind would get so far ahead of his mouth that he'd sometimes struggle with studdering or tripping over his own words. One of the best professors I had...though he was later effectively run out of the college for his (lack of) stance related to homosexuality.

Boyd was my theology prof. The year before he left. He wasn't run out for his lack of stance on that. It was the Open Theism controversy.

Wow...that's freakin' awesome. This guy seems to be everything you guys say he is and I've only met him a few times. Both times were at camps where he was th guest speaker. I followed the issues he had with his church and I know a very little bit about the "Open Theism" controversy. And from what I know, it's the perfect illustration to bring up when we are talking about "religion" being too set in it's ways to change a position even in the face of some pretty substantial evidence. His approach and example have caused me to make drastic changes to my approach (namely to be more critical of religious dogma and question a lot more often). I'd love to hear more about your personal experiences with the guy.

 

[Jayrok]

Parasaurolophus, I actually agree with your post. Jesus believed in Adam and the flood. Yet many people believe in Jesus as their savior, but don't believe as he believed. Same with morality and many other things. We may interpret things differently, such as the point about God causing calamity earlier, but if it's in the bible a Christian should believe it.

I think in years past most all Christians believed the stories in the Bible. I certainly did. As scientific discovery proceeds (e.g. evidence for evolution, knowledge of our galaxy) many Christians find the need to adapt some beliefs to allow such discoveries while not harming the Bible in any way. More liberal believers come forth. Those that now believe in evolution and accept a very old earth... they accept that Noah's ark and Jonah as allegorical tales and not literal events.

Yet they feel they must maintain that Jesus died physically and was physically raised from the dead and that he will physically appear in the clouds one day to gather people to him.

I think mr roboto stated it well when he said it comes down to believing Jesus. You can shake supernatural stories and even the idea that perhaps the Bible isn't 100% God-breathed, but when the smoke clears, there remains Jesus and his testimony. I don't see anything wrong with having faith in Jesus. My question would be, though, is this efficient enough for salvation?

 

[The Commish]

Why am I a Christian? This is going to sound trite and typical to non-believers, but it's the answer.

When I trusted in Christ for salvation and submitted my will to God's will my life changed.

Let me stop you right here. This is my fundamental question in this thread. You weren't just born this way. At some point you DECIDED to trust in christ and submit your will to god. My question is when and why? That's at the heart of the thread premise. Were you taught that by your parents? Did you grow up in an atheist household but get curious on your own, read up at a library, and decide this was for you? Were you handed a religion menu and chose this one as opposed to others?

I grew up in a nominal Christian home. I believed a little growing up but didn't really make it a personal thing until college. But yes, I did grow up around the Christian religion.

Same here, but it wasn't until I was in college that I spent the better part of three years exploring the other religions and observing the world around me. I knew all the creeds, the catechism, songs and prayers, but I was never "touched" by them. They didn't impact me. I was going through the motions. That connection didn't happen for me until I was well out of my parents' house. I wasn't even actively going to church at the time. Oddly enough, a friend of mine was talking about a word study he was doing on the word "love" in the Bible and suggested I do the same. At the time I was reading about Hinduism. When I started that word study something just "clicked" for me.

 

[Henry Ford]

Parasaurolophus, I actually agree with your post. Jesus believed in Adam and the flood. Yet many people believe in Jesus as their savior, but don't believe as he believed. Same with morality and many other things. We may interpret things differently, such as the point about God causing calamity earlier, but if it's in the bible a Christian should believe it.

You believe that a guy built an ark big enough to house two of every animal in the world, gathered a male and a female of each, and then put them on that ark and rode out a flood that destroyed the population of the planet?

 

[shader]

Parasaurolophus, I actually agree with your post. Jesus believed in Adam and the flood. Yet many people believe in Jesus as their savior, but don't believe as he believed. Same with morality and many other things. We may interpret things differently, such as the point about God causing calamity earlier, but if it's in the bible a Christian should believe it.

You believe that a guy built an ark big enough to house two of every animal in the world, gathered a male and a female of each, and then put them on that ark and rode out a flood that destroyed the population of the planet?

Jesus believed it, did he not?

 

[Ookie Pringle]

Parasaurolophus, I actually agree with your post. Jesus believed in Adam and the flood. Yet many people believe in Jesus as their savior, but don't believe as he believed. Same with morality and many other things. We may interpret things differently, such as the point about God causing calamity earlier, but if it's in the bible a Christian should believe it.

You believe that a guy built an ark big enough to house two of every animal in the world, gathered a male and a female of each, and then put them on that ark and rode out a flood that destroyed the population of the planet?

 

[timschochet]

I would assume that just about all of us here are NFL fans right? (Otherwise its unlikely you would have found your way into this forum). What makes one an NFL fan? Not everyone who lives in the USA loves the NFL. But you are much more likely to be an NFL fan if you grew up here than if you grew up in, say, Italy.

You can argue that it was your personal choice that made you an NFL fan rather than, for example, a cricket fan, but where you are from and what you were exposed to as a kid plays a huge if not defining role.

 

[Henry Ford]

Parasaurolophus, I actually agree with your post. Jesus believed in Adam and the flood. Yet many people believe in Jesus as their savior, but don't believe as he believed. Same with morality and many other things. We may interpret things differently, such as the point about God causing calamity earlier, but if it's in the bible a Christian should believe it.

You believe that a guy built an ark big enough to house two of every animal in the world, gathered a male and a female of each, and then put them on that ark and rode out a flood that destroyed the population of the planet?

Jesus believed it, did he not?

I don't know.

 

[Henry Ford]

Parasaurolophus, I actually agree with your post. Jesus believed in Adam and the flood. Yet many people believe in Jesus as their savior, but don't believe as he believed. Same with morality and many other things. We may interpret things differently, such as the point about God causing calamity earlier, but if it's in the bible a Christian should believe it.

You believe that a guy built an ark big enough to house two of every animal in the world, gathered a male and a female of each, and then put them on that ark and rode out a flood that destroyed the population of the planet?

Why are you rolling your eyes? I think that's a legitimate question. It's pretty near impossible, even before you get to the issue of the size of the ark and the size it would have to be to house that number of animals. I'm not being insulting about it, I'm legitimately intrigued.

 

[The Commish]

Parasaurolophus, I actually agree with your post. Jesus believed in Adam and the flood. Yet many people believe in Jesus as their savior, but don't believe as he believed. Same with morality and many other things. We may interpret things differently, such as the point about God causing calamity earlier, but if it's in the bible a Christian should believe it.

You believe that a guy built an ark big enough to house two of every animal in the world, gathered a male and a female of each, and then put them on that ark and rode out a flood that destroyed the population of the planet?

Why are you rolling your eyes? I think that's a legitimate question. It's pretty near impossible, even before you get to the issue of the size of the ark and the size it would have to be to house that number of animals. I'm not being insulting about it, I'm legitimately intrigued.

I don't have a problem with the question personally as long as we understand what "the world" meant when this was written. It should be pretty obvious that the statement "we don't know what we don't know". It was true then and it's true now. It's all a matter of perspective.

 

[KCitons]

Parasaurolophus, I actually agree with your post. Jesus believed in Adam and the flood. Yet many people believe in Jesus as their savior, but don't believe as he believed. Same with morality and many other things. We may interpret things differently, such as the point about God causing calamity earlier, but if it's in the bible a Christian should believe it.

You believe that a guy built an ark big enough to house two of every animal in the world, gathered a male and a female of each, and then put them on that ark and rode out a flood that destroyed the population of the planet?

How did they repopulate the earth?

 

[Henry Ford]

Parasaurolophus, I actually agree with your post. Jesus believed in Adam and the flood. Yet many people believe in Jesus as their savior, but don't believe as he believed. Same with morality and many other things. We may interpret things differently, such as the point about God causing calamity earlier, but if it's in the bible a Christian should believe it.

You believe that a guy built an ark big enough to house two of every animal in the world, gathered a male and a female of each, and then put them on that ark and rode out a flood that destroyed the population of the planet?

Why are you rolling your eyes? I think that's a legitimate question. It's pretty near impossible, even before you get to the issue of the size of the ark and the size it would have to be to house that number of animals. I'm not being insulting about it, I'm legitimately intrigued.

I don't have a problem with the question personally as long as we understand what "the world" meant when this was written. It should be pretty obvious that the statement "we don't know what we don't know". It was true then and it's true now. It's all a matter of perspective.

Was it a different world? God said he would wipe from the face of the earth every living creature he had made. I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm not aware of His reforming of the earth at any point, so I'm assuming we have the same planet to work with. Is there another belief on this?

 

[Henry Ford]

I can honestly say that I only know two people I can discuss religion with who 100% literally believe the story of Noah and don't worry about the potential inconsistencies in the story, and they're both a little "off." I'm just enjoying the opportunity to discuss this literal interpretation of the Bible with someone who's a reasonable person and intelligent. I hope my questions don't come off as insulting, I'm actually interested in the answers.

 

[matuski]

I can honestly say that I only know two people I can discuss religion with who 100% literally believe the story of Noah and don't worry about the potential inconsistencies in the story, and they're both a little "off." I'm just enjoying the opportunity to discuss this literal interpretation of the Bible with someone who's a reasonable person and intelligent. I hope my questions don't come off as insulting, I'm actually interested in the answers.

Why do you keep apologizing for your questions?

 

[Henry Ford]

I can honestly say that I only know two people I can discuss religion with who 100% literally believe the story of Noah and don't worry about the potential inconsistencies in the story, and they're both a little "off." I'm just enjoying the opportunity to discuss this literal interpretation of the Bible with someone who's a reasonable person and intelligent. I hope my questions don't come off as insulting, I'm actually interested in the answers.

Why do you keep apologizing for your questions?

I'm not apologizing in that post, I'm explaining. Posts on a message board can be read in a number of ways - and when dealing with a sensitive subject like religion, it's easy for people to read the post in the most aggressive way possible. It's pretty clear that I don't believe what he believes about the Bible. I'd prefer to have a pleasant conversation, rather than have people roll their eyes and assume I'm being a jerk about this.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

I can honestly say that I only know two people I can discuss religion with who 100% literally believe the story of Noah and don't worry about the potential inconsistencies in the story, and they're both a little "off." I'm just enjoying the opportunity to discuss this literal interpretation of the Bible with someone who's a reasonable person and intelligent. I hope my questions don't come off as insulting, I'm actually interested in the answers.

Why do you keep apologizing for your questions?

I'm not apologizing in that post, I'm explaining. Posts on a message board can be read in a number of ways - and when dealing with a sensitive subject like religion, it's easy for people to read the post in the most aggressive way possible. It's pretty clear that I don't believe what he believes about the Bible. I'd prefer to have a pleasant conversation, rather than have people roll their eyes and assume I'm being a jerk about this.

That is good because there are certain posters in here that are being jerks.

 

[The Commish]

Parasaurolophus, I actually agree with your post. Jesus believed in Adam and the flood. Yet many people believe in Jesus as their savior, but don't believe as he believed. Same with morality and many other things. We may interpret things differently, such as the point about God causing calamity earlier, but if it's in the bible a Christian should believe it.

You believe that a guy built an ark big enough to house two of every animal in the world, gathered a male and a female of each, and then put them on that ark and rode out a flood that destroyed the population of the planet?

Why are you rolling your eyes? I think that's a legitimate question. It's pretty near impossible, even before you get to the issue of the size of the ark and the size it would have to be to house that number of animals. I'm not being insulting about it, I'm legitimately intrigued.

I don't have a problem with the question personally as long as we understand what "the world" meant when this was written. It should be pretty obvious that the statement "we don't know what we don't know". It was true then and it's true now. It's all a matter of perspective.

Was it a different world? God said he would wipe from the face of the earth every living creature he had made. I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm not aware of His reforming of the earth at any point, so I'm assuming we have the same planet to work with. Is there another belief on this?

No...my point is "The world" to them 2000 - 6000 years ago and how they knew it was very different than it is today. For example....they didn't know about the Americas or Australia or Antarctica. Heck, I'm sure there were a lot that still thought the earth was flat. If my history serves me, the assertion that it was round came around 3 BC.

 

[Henry Ford]

I can honestly say that I only know two people I can discuss religion with who 100% literally believe the story of Noah and don't worry about the potential inconsistencies in the story, and they're both a little "off." I'm just enjoying the opportunity to discuss this literal interpretation of the Bible with someone who's a reasonable person and intelligent. I hope my questions don't come off as insulting, I'm actually interested in the answers.

Why do you keep apologizing for your questions?

I'm not apologizing in that post, I'm explaining. Posts on a message board can be read in a number of ways - and when dealing with a sensitive subject like religion, it's easy for people to read the post in the most aggressive way possible. It's pretty clear that I don't believe what he believes about the Bible. I'd prefer to have a pleasant conversation, rather than have people roll their eyes and assume I'm being a jerk about this.

That is good because there are certain posters in here that are being jerks.

Yes. And not all of them are non-believers.

 

[matuski]

I can honestly say that I only know two people I can discuss religion with who 100% literally believe the story of Noah and don't worry about the potential inconsistencies in the story, and they're both a little "off." I'm just enjoying the opportunity to discuss this literal interpretation of the Bible with someone who's a reasonable person and intelligent. I hope my questions don't come off as insulting, I'm actually interested in the answers.

Why do you keep apologizing for your questions?

I'm not apologizing in that post, I'm explaining. Posts on a message board can be read in a number of ways - and when dealing with a sensitive subject like religion, it's easy for people to read the post in the most aggressive way possible. It's pretty clear that I don't believe what he believes about the Bible. I'd prefer to have a pleasant conversation, rather than have people roll their eyes and assume I'm being a jerk about this.

That is good because there are certain posters in here that are being jerks.

Questions are questions. You are assigning the emotion to it, not the ones asking the questions. Here we go again.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

I can honestly say that I only know two people I can discuss religion with who 100% literally believe the story of Noah and don't worry about the potential inconsistencies in the story, and they're both a little "off." I'm just enjoying the opportunity to discuss this literal interpretation of the Bible with someone who's a reasonable person and intelligent. I hope my questions don't come off as insulting, I'm actually interested in the answers.

Why do you keep apologizing for your questions?

I'm not apologizing in that post, I'm explaining. Posts on a message board can be read in a number of ways - and when dealing with a sensitive subject like religion, it's easy for people to read the post in the most aggressive way possible. It's pretty clear that I don't believe what he believes about the Bible. I'd prefer to have a pleasant conversation, rather than have people roll their eyes and assume I'm being a jerk about this.

That is good because there are certain posters in here that are being jerks.

Questions are questions. You are assigning the emotion to it, not the ones asking the questions. Here we go again.

No, the reality is you have come across as a condescending jerk in this thread to people about their religious beliefs.

 

[cstu]

Parasaurolophus, I actually agree with your post. Jesus believed in Adam and the flood. Yet many people believe in Jesus as their savior, but don't believe as he believed. Same with morality and many other things. We may interpret things differently, such as the point about God causing calamity earlier, but if it's in the bible a Christian should believe it.

You believe that a guy built an ark big enough to house two of every animal in the world, gathered a male and a female of each, and then put them on that ark and rode out a flood that destroyed the population of the planet?

Jesus believed it, did he not?

If he did that doesn't give him much credibility as the son of God.

 

[Henry Ford]

Parasaurolophus, I actually agree with your post. Jesus believed in Adam and the flood. Yet many people believe in Jesus as their savior, but don't believe as he believed. Same with morality and many other things. We may interpret things differently, such as the point about God causing calamity earlier, but if it's in the bible a Christian should believe it.

You believe that a guy built an ark big enough to house two of every animal in the world, gathered a male and a female of each, and then put them on that ark and rode out a flood that destroyed the population of the planet?

Why are you rolling your eyes? I think that's a legitimate question. It's pretty near impossible, even before you get to the issue of the size of the ark and the size it would have to be to house that number of animals. I'm not being insulting about it, I'm legitimately intrigued.

I don't have a problem with the question personally as long as we understand what "the world" meant when this was written. It should be pretty obvious that the statement "we don't know what we don't know". It was true then and it's true now. It's all a matter of perspective.

Was it a different world? God said he would wipe from the face of the earth every living creature he had made. I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm not aware of His reforming of the earth at any point, so I'm assuming we have the same planet to work with. Is there another belief on this?

No...my point is "The world" to them 2000 years ago and how they knew it was very different than it is today. For example....they didn't know about the Americas or Australia or Antarctica.

Which translation of the Bible would you like to use? Because in the vast majority of them, God said he would wipe from the face of the earth every living creature he had made. And he commanded that Noah retrieve two (or seven in some cases, or seven pairs, as it's sometimes translated) of every living thing that breathes. Or of all flesh wherein there is the breath of life. And then God wiped out every other living thing.

If it's something other than the perfect, unerring Word of God, then fine. People make mistakes. It happens. If you believe that the story as written - internal inconsistencies aside - is what actually happened, then there are problems.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Parasaurolophus, I actually agree with your post. Jesus believed in Adam and the flood. Yet many people believe in Jesus as their savior, but don't believe as he believed. Same with morality and many other things. We may interpret things differently, such as the point about God causing calamity earlier, but if it's in the bible a Christian should believe it.

You believe that a guy built an ark big enough to house two of every animal in the world, gathered a male and a female of each, and then put them on that ark and rode out a flood that destroyed the population of the planet?

Why are you rolling your eyes? I think that's a legitimate question. It's pretty near impossible, even before you get to the issue of the size of the ark and the size it would have to be to house that number of animals. I'm not being insulting about it, I'm legitimately intrigued.

I don't have a problem with the question personally as long as we understand what "the world" meant when this was written. It should be pretty obvious that the statement "we don't know what we don't know". It was true then and it's true now. It's all a matter of perspective.

Was it a different world? God said he would wipe from the face of the earth every living creature he had made. I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm not aware of His reforming of the earth at any point, so I'm assuming we have the same planet to work with. Is there another belief on this?

No...my point is "The world" to them 2000 - 6000 years ago and how they knew it was very different than it is today. For example....they didn't know about the Americas or Australia or Antarctica. Heck, I'm sure there were a lot that still thought the earth was flat. If my history serves me, the assertion that it was round came around 3 BC.

God didn't know about the Americas, Australia or Antarctica?

 

[The Commish]

Parasaurolophus, I actually agree with your post. Jesus believed in Adam and the flood. Yet many people believe in Jesus as their savior, but don't believe as he believed. Same with morality and many other things. We may interpret things differently, such as the point about God causing calamity earlier, but if it's in the bible a Christian should believe it.

You believe that a guy built an ark big enough to house two of every animal in the world, gathered a male and a female of each, and then put them on that ark and rode out a flood that destroyed the population of the planet?

Why are you rolling your eyes? I think that's a legitimate question. It's pretty near impossible, even before you get to the issue of the size of the ark and the size it would have to be to house that number of animals. I'm not being insulting about it, I'm legitimately intrigued.

I don't have a problem with the question personally as long as we understand what "the world" meant when this was written. It should be pretty obvious that the statement "we don't know what we don't know". It was true then and it's true now. It's all a matter of perspective.

Was it a different world? God said he would wipe from the face of the earth every living creature he had made. I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm not aware of His reforming of the earth at any point, so I'm assuming we have the same planet to work with. Is there another belief on this?

No...my point is "The world" to them 2000 years ago and how they knew it was very different than it is today. For example....they didn't know about the Americas or Australia or Antarctica.

Which translation of the Bible would you like to use? Because in the vast majority of them, God said he would wipe from the face of the earth every living creature he had made. And he commanded that Noah retrieve two (or seven in some cases, or seven pairs, as it's sometimes translated) of every living thing that breathes. Or of all flesh wherein there is the breath of life. And then God wiped out every other living thing.

If it's something other than the perfect, unerring Word of God, then fine. People make mistakes. It happens. If you believe that the story as written - internal inconsistencies aside - is what actually happened, then there are problems.

It really has nothing to do with the inerrancy/errancy though. It's the perspective and circumstances under which these accounts were written, and it goes for every single account whether literal or fable. Folks rarely take the time to study the time in which these stories were told/recorded. Granted, I find people today who believe it is a literal story to be off, but I doubt it's for the same reasons that you do.

 

[Henry Ford]

It really has nothing to do with the inerrancy/errancy though. It's the perspective and circumstances under which these accounts were written, and it goes for every single account whether literal or fable. Folks rarely take the time to study the time in which these stories were told/recorded. Granted, I find people today who believe it is a literal story to be off, but I doubt it's for the same reasons that you do.

It really does, though. If it's the literal, unerring word of God, then there's a reason to follow the wording and statements of the Bible to the letter. If it's not, then it's a document to be interpreted in varying ways based on the understanding of the time and how our understanding has progressed. It's got some mistakes in it. It's limited by man's flawed understanding of the world.

 

[KCitons]

Parasaurolophus, I actually agree with your post. Jesus believed in Adam and the flood. Yet many people believe in Jesus as their savior, but don't believe as he believed. Same with morality and many other things. We may interpret things differently, such as the point about God causing calamity earlier, but if it's in the bible a Christian should believe it.

You believe that a guy built an ark big enough to house two of every animal in the world, gathered a male and a female of each, and then put them on that ark and rode out a flood that destroyed the population of the planet?

Why are you rolling your eyes? I think that's a legitimate question. It's pretty near impossible, even before you get to the issue of the size of the ark and the size it would have to be to house that number of animals. I'm not being insulting about it, I'm legitimately intrigued.

I don't have a problem with the question personally as long as we understand what "the world" meant when this was written. It should be pretty obvious that the statement "we don't know what we don't know". It was true then and it's true now. It's all a matter of perspective.

Was it a different world? God said he would wipe from the face of the earth every living creature he had made. I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm not aware of His reforming of the earth at any point, so I'm assuming we have the same planet to work with. Is there another belief on this?

No...my point is "The world" to them 2000 - 6000 years ago and how they knew it was very different than it is today. For example....they didn't know about the Americas or Australia or Antarctica. Heck, I'm sure there were a lot that still thought the earth was flat. If my history serves me, the assertion that it was round came around 3 BC.

God didn't know about the Americas, Australia or Antarctica?

Maybe his plan was to withhold man's ability to know about those places. Similar to today's space exploration.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Parasaurolophus, I actually agree with your post. Jesus believed in Adam and the flood. Yet many people believe in Jesus as their savior, but don't believe as he believed. Same with morality and many other things. We may interpret things differently, such as the point about God causing calamity earlier, but if it's in the bible a Christian should believe it.

You believe that a guy built an ark big enough to house two of every animal in the world, gathered a male and a female of each, and then put them on that ark and rode out a flood that destroyed the population of the planet?

Why are you rolling your eyes? I think that's a legitimate question. It's pretty near impossible, even before you get to the issue of the size of the ark and the size it would have to be to house that number of animals. I'm not being insulting about it, I'm legitimately intrigued.

I don't have a problem with the question personally as long as we understand what "the world" meant when this was written. It should be pretty obvious that the statement "we don't know what we don't know". It was true then and it's true now. It's all a matter of perspective.

Was it a different world? God said he would wipe from the face of the earth every living creature he had made. I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm not aware of His reforming of the earth at any point, so I'm assuming we have the same planet to work with. Is there another belief on this?

No...my point is "The world" to them 2000 - 6000 years ago and how they knew it was very different than it is today. For example....they didn't know about the Americas or Australia or Antarctica. Heck, I'm sure there were a lot that still thought the earth was flat. If my history serves me, the assertion that it was round came around 3 BC.

God didn't know about the Americas, Australia or Antarctica?

Maybe his plan was to withhold man's ability to know about those places. Similar to today's space exploration.

Religious logic

 

[The Commish]

It really has nothing to do with the inerrancy/errancy though. It's the perspective and circumstances under which these accounts were written, and it goes for every single account whether literal or fable. Folks rarely take the time to study the time in which these stories were told/recorded. Granted, I find people today who believe it is a literal story to be off, but I doubt it's for the same reasons that you do.

It really does, though. If it's the literal, unerring word of God, then there's a reason to follow the wording and statements of the Bible to the letter. If it's not, then it's a document to be interpreted in varying ways based on the understanding of the time and how our understanding has progressed. It's got some mistakes in it. It's limited by man's flawed understanding of the world.

In this example, you can follow it to the letter and still know they weren't talking about the world as you and I know it today rather as they knew it then. I don't want to get into an errancy debate in this thread...that misses the point of it IMO.

 

[Henry Ford]

It really has nothing to do with the inerrancy/errancy though. It's the perspective and circumstances under which these accounts were written, and it goes for every single account whether literal or fable. Folks rarely take the time to study the time in which these stories were told/recorded. Granted, I find people today who believe it is a literal story to be off, but I doubt it's for the same reasons that you do.

It really does, though. If it's the literal, unerring word of God, then there's a reason to follow the wording and statements of the Bible to the letter. If it's not, then it's a document to be interpreted in varying ways based on the understanding of the time and how our understanding has progressed. It's got some mistakes in it. It's limited by man's flawed understanding of the world.

In this example, you can follow it to the letter and still know they weren't talking about the world as you and I know it today rather as they knew it then. I don't want to get into an errancy debate in this thread...that misses the point of it IMO.

But, then they are talking about it. God isn't. That's my point. And what they said is incredibly suspect.

And if you don't want to get into a debate about it, then don't. You inserted yourself into a conversation and then said you didn't want to be part of it.

 

[Jayrok]

In this example, you can follow it to the letter and still know they weren't talking about the world as you and I know it today rather as they knew it then.

A localized flood in the Mesopotamian valley doesn't make sense given the texts. Animals, including birds, were gathered into the ark.

Genesis 6:6-8 - The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

Why would a bird or most of those animals... or even people for that matter.. need to be housed in such an ark for a year? They could just move to where the flood ain't.

Why is it so difficult for people (of faith!) to discount the notion that this is meant to be a literal global flood? God will wipe the face of the earth of the human race and the animals and birds because he regretted that he made them. Did he only regret making the people and animals who lived in the Mesopotamian valley?

I'm not singling you out, GB, it just frustrates me when some try to soften the edges of scripture so that it fits neatly into modern man's understanding.

 

[Psychopav]

I actually like that point, Jayrok. I always felt like if God wants something to be symbolic, well, He really only has one medium to use to achieve that symbolism; namely, reality.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

. You inserted yourself into a conversation and then said you didn't want to be part of it.

Lol, I like that shtick.

It seems to me that it is a major shift to go from believing the bible is the inerrant word of God to thinking this is book of stories written by men. When you start throwing out parts of it, what is to say that any of it should be relied upon?