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Car Market going forward (2 Viewers)

What could go wrong
Delinquencies
Yeah, it's gonna get ugly.

Ford's February numbers out Ford sales up 23% over last Feb. F-Series truck sales up 22%. Again, that's with the average new Ford at almost $50K, and the average F-Series truck at $66K.

Fewer supply chain issues compared to Feb 2021 surely help account for some of the volume increase, but buyers clearly aren't shying away from buying vehicles that cost as much as the median household income.
 
Nothing is going to drop in price ever again. All of these companies that have raised prices during inflation are sitting there thinking: "well, people are still buying stuff...."

Welcome to the new normal. Makes me want to puke.
2023 Chevy Bolt EUV got a $6300 price drop from the 2022 version :shrug:
 
What could go wrong
Delinquencies
Yeah, it's gonna get ugly.

Ford's February numbers out Ford sales up 23% over last Feb. F-Series truck sales up 22%. Again, that's with the average new Ford at almost $50K, and the average F-Series truck at $66K.

Fewer supply chain issues compared to Feb 2021 surely help account for some of the volume increase, but buyers clearly aren't shying away from buying vehicles that cost as much as the median household income.
Fleet industry was up way more than the retail side. Could be masking weaker demand.
 
I really wish someone would build a GD basic car. Safe, reliable, no frills. Think Honda Civic with no backup cameras, blue tooth, navigation, power anything............
Brand new 15 grand.
Heck a brand new Kia Rio is like 19 grand and, if you compared it to a new car from 2010, it would seem like it has all the bells and whistles.
I want a car with no bells or whistles. As Steve Martin once said, "four wheels and a ****in seat".
 
I really wish someone would build a GD basic car. Safe, reliable, no frills. Think Honda Civic with no backup cameras, blue tooth, navigation, power anything............
Brand new 15 grand.
Heck a brand new Kia Rio is like 19 grand and, if you compared it to a new car from 2010, it would seem like it has all the bells and whistles.
I want a car with no bells or whistles. As Steve Martin once said, "four wheels and a ****in seat".
Nissan Versa
 
Traded in my 2016 Chevy Silverado for a Genesis GV70. The Genesis has so damn many bells and whistles I am still reading and watching videos 2 days later. It massages your butt while driving.
 
I really wish someone would build a GD basic car. Safe, reliable, no frills. Think Honda Civic with no backup cameras, blue tooth, navigation, power anything............
Brand new 15 grand.
Heck a brand new Kia Rio is like 19 grand and, if you compared it to a new car from 2010, it would seem like it has all the bells and whistles.
I want a car with no bells or whistles. As Steve Martin once said, "four wheels and a ****in seat".
Nissan Versa
Try again
 
I really wish someone would build a GD basic car. Safe, reliable, no frills. Think Honda Civic with no backup cameras, blue tooth, navigation, power anything............
Brand new 15 grand.
Heck a brand new Kia Rio is like 19 grand and, if you compared it to a new car from 2010, it would seem like it has all the bells and whistles.
I want a car with no bells or whistles. As Steve Martin once said, "four wheels and a ****in seat".
Nissan Versa
Try again
Nissan Versa

 
Listen, a lot of this price issue is demand. Americans want what they want.

Most Americans buy more car than they should. Collectively, we are the problem, not the carmakers.

You think there are other countries where 22 year old women drive Escalades? There is not.
I'm thinking it's more of an inventory problem.
The major Honda dealership near me hasn't had hardly any new inventory for like 2 years now, and it isn't cause there is a line down the street.
 
I really wish someone would build a GD basic car. Safe, reliable, no frills. Think Honda Civic with no backup cameras, blue tooth, navigation, power anything............
Brand new 15 grand.
Heck a brand new Kia Rio is like 19 grand and, if you compared it to a new car from 2010, it would seem like it has all the bells and whistles.
I want a car with no bells or whistles. As Steve Martin once said, "four wheels and a ****in seat".
Nissan Versa
Try again
Nissan Versa
Show me a link to the cheapest new Nissan Versa you can find
 
Nothing is going to drop in price ever again. All of these companies that have raised prices during inflation are sitting there thinking: "well, people are still buying stuff...."

Welcome to the new normal. Makes me want to puke.

Edit: Actually, after rethinking things I agree. It will likely get worse.
 
Last edited:
I really wish someone would build a GD basic car. Safe, reliable, no frills. Think Honda Civic with no backup cameras, blue tooth, navigation, power anything............
Brand new 15 grand.
Heck a brand new Kia Rio is like 19 grand and, if you compared it to a new car from 2010, it would seem like it has all the bells and whistles.
I want a car with no bells or whistles. As Steve Martin once said, "four wheels and a ****in seat".
Backup cameras are actually very important for safety. So much easier to see when backing out versus not having it.
 
I really wish someone would build a GD basic car. Safe, reliable, no frills. Think Honda Civic with no backup cameras, blue tooth, navigation, power anything............
Brand new 15 grand.
Heck a brand new Kia Rio is like 19 grand and, if you compared it to a new car from 2010, it would seem like it has all the bells and whistles.
I want a car with no bells or whistles. As Steve Martin once said, "four wheels and a ****in seat".
Backup cameras are actually very important for safety. So much easier to see when backing out versus not having it.
I barely use mine, plus it's barely functional in the winter cause it's constantly obstructed.
 
I really wish someone would build a GD basic car. Safe, reliable, no frills. Think Honda Civic with no backup cameras, blue tooth, navigation, power anything............
Brand new 15 grand.
Heck a brand new Kia Rio is like 19 grand and, if you compared it to a new car from 2010, it would seem like it has all the bells and whistles.
I want a car with no bells or whistles. As Steve Martin once said, "four wheels and a ****in seat".
I'm guessing it's obsolete now, but you just described our '16 caravan. That dealer hated working with us.

Do you want power anything?!?

Locks and windows. We'll install our own remote car starter. That's it.
 
I really wish someone would build a GD basic car. Safe, reliable, no frills. Think Honda Civic with no backup cameras, blue tooth, navigation, power anything............
Brand new 15 grand.
Heck a brand new Kia Rio is like 19 grand and, if you compared it to a new car from 2010, it would seem like it has all the bells and whistles.
I want a car with no bells or whistles. As Steve Martin once said, "four wheels and a ****in seat".
It's very difficult to make a car without a backup camera now. HIGH legal liability risk. Extremely high. It's basically like trying to make a car without a seatbelt.
 
One of my proudest moments as a dad is watching my 17 year old son backing his 2005 Escape into parking spaces. All mirrors.

Backup cameras are for old farts who can’t turn their old sore necks anymore.
 
It’s tough to know how long the rise in used car prices will last.

definitely wait until tax season is over - if there's any chance for some price drops it won't be until then
How true is this with the standard deduction changes? Are people really so bad at filling out their w2 forms? Was nearly sure the average refund was at like 40 year lows. It's so low it's impacting hr block bottom line as they make loans on those.
 
It’s tough to know how long the rise in used car prices will last.

definitely wait until tax season is over - if there's any chance for some price drops it won't be until then
How true is this with the standard deduction changes? Are people really so bad at filling out their w2 forms? Was nearly sure the average refund was at like 40 year lows. It's so low it's impacting hr block bottom line as they make loans on those.

it's an 8% difference ...

wtf man.
 
It’s tough to know how long the rise in used car prices will last.

definitely wait until tax season is over - if there's any chance for some price drops it won't be until then
How true is this with the standard deduction changes? Are people really so bad at filling out their w2 forms? Was nearly sure the average refund was at like 40 year lows. It's so low it's impacting hr block bottom line as they make loans on those.

it's an 8% difference ...

wtf man.
8% in what?
 
I really wish someone would build a GD basic car. Safe, reliable, no frills. Think Honda Civic with no backup cameras, blue tooth, navigation, power anything............
Brand new 15 grand.
Heck a brand new Kia Rio is like 19 grand and, if you compared it to a new car from 2010, it would seem like it has all the bells and whistles.
I want a car with no bells or whistles. As Steve Martin once said, "four wheels and a ****in seat".
My son bought one of these in 2021. An 08 civic. He loves it. I don’t know if I could live without the rear cam now. But I do like driving his car occasionally.
 
It’s tough to know how long the rise in used car prices will last.

definitely wait until tax season is over - if there's any chance for some price drops it won't be until then
How true is this with the standard deduction changes? Are people really so bad at filling out their w2 forms? Was nearly sure the average refund was at like 40 year lows. It's so low it's impacting hr block bottom line as they make loans on those.
For too many people, overpaying taxes is their savings plan. Then they use their “found free money” to buy as car or whatever.
 
It’s tough to know how long the rise in used car prices will last.

definitely wait until tax season is over - if there's any chance for some price drops it won't be until then
How true is this with the standard deduction changes? Are people really so bad at filling out their w2 forms? Was nearly sure the average refund was at like 40 year lows. It's so low it's impacting hr block bottom line as they make loans on those.

it's an 8% difference ...

wtf man.
8% in what?

I made it up ...how the living **** would someone know how much the prices would be impacted by the std tax deduction?

seemed like a ****ty, snarky question and I gave you a ****ty, snarky answer.
 
It’s tough to know how long the rise in used car prices will last.

definitely wait until tax season is over - if there's any chance for some price drops it won't be until then
How true is this with the standard deduction changes? Are people really so bad at filling out their w2 forms? Was nearly sure the average refund was at like 40 year lows. It's so low it's impacting hr block bottom line as they make loans on those.

it's an 8% difference ...

wtf man.
8% in what?

I made it up ...how the living **** would someone know how much the prices would be impacted by the std tax deduction?

seemed like a ****ty, snarky question and I gave you a ****ty, snarky answer.
It was a honest comment. I really don't think tax season matters as much as it did in the 90s or whatever. Waiting or planning around it seems foolish with the new tax rules for MFJ especially.
 
It’s tough to know how long the rise in used car prices will last.

definitely wait until tax season is over - if there's any chance for some price drops it won't be until then
How true is this with the standard deduction changes? Are people really so bad at filling out their w2 forms? Was nearly sure the average refund was at like 40 year lows. It's so low it's impacting hr block bottom line as they make loans on those.

it's an 8% difference ...

wtf man.
8% in what?

I made it up ...how the living **** would someone know how much the prices would be impacted by the std tax deduction?

seemed like a ****ty, snarky question and I gave you a ****ty, snarky answer.
It was a honest comment. I really don't think tax season matters as much as it did in the 90s or whatever. Waiting or planning around it seems foolish with the new tax rules for MFJ especially.

people get tax returns ...they wait for those returns to splurge on larger purchases for them

if you want to argue that FACT

then we have nothing more to discuss here.
 
It’s tough to know how long the rise in used car prices will last.

definitely wait until tax season is over - if there's any chance for some price drops it won't be until then
How true is this with the standard deduction changes? Are people really so bad at filling out their w2 forms? Was nearly sure the average refund was at like 40 year lows. It's so low it's impacting hr block bottom line as they make loans on those.

it's an 8% difference ...

wtf man.
8% in what?

I made it up ...how the living **** would someone know how much the prices would be impacted by the std tax deduction?

seemed like a ****ty, snarky question and I gave you a ****ty, snarky answer.
It was a honest comment. I really don't think tax season matters as much as it did in the 90s or whatever. Waiting or planning around it seems foolish with the new tax rules for MFJ especially.

people get tax returns ...they wait for those returns to splurge on larger purchases for them

if you want to argue that FACT

then we have nothing more to discuss here.
I wouldn't wait on a car purchase thinking this is some way to get a price break. That's all.
 
It’s tough to know how long the rise in used car prices will last.

definitely wait until tax season is over - if there's any chance for some price drops it won't be until then
How true is this with the standard deduction changes? Are people really so bad at filling out their w2 forms? Was nearly sure the average refund was at like 40 year lows. It's so low it's impacting hr block bottom line as they make loans on those.

it's an 8% difference ...

wtf man.
8% in what?

I made it up ...how the living **** would someone know how much the prices would be impacted by the std tax deduction?

seemed like a ****ty, snarky question and I gave you a ****ty, snarky answer.
It was a honest comment. I really don't think tax season matters as much as it did in the 90s or whatever. Waiting or planning around it seems foolish with the new tax rules for MFJ especially.

people get tax returns ...they wait for those returns to splurge on larger purchases for them

if you want to argue that FACT

then we have nothing more to discuss here.
I wouldn't wait on a car purchase thinking this is some way to get a price break. That's all.

hang onto that ...

it's ok to admit you're wrong - didn't realize you were that way

I'll steer clear ...you do the same
 
"four wheels and a ****in seat"
crucial quote. you know what, man? you don't want dealer accessories anyway. unless it's a moonroof or something. want the "premium sound system?" for the same amount of money they charge for their weak, limp crap, a man can "invest" in some real, quality, aftermarket equipment. Aftermarket gear is backed by legit R&D that will turn heads, garner the admiration of one's peers, and increase your metabolism with no side effects, provided that you also tint your windows. The availability and range of aftermarket automotive products is so sick and vast, paying money for manufacturer "extras" is dumb at worst, and shortsighted at best. Same thing with "free" oil changes. I even think some of the so-called "airbag recalls" are just fear-mongering incentives to get you back in the door with your wallet. Next thing you know you're getting a "free" oil change but paying 68 dollars for some zit-faced kid to spray two shots of brake cleaner on your throttle body for "scheduled maintenance."
 
I really wish someone would build a GD basic car. Safe, reliable, no frills. Think Honda Civic with no backup cameras, blue tooth, navigation, power anything............
Brand new 15 grand.
Heck a brand new Kia Rio is like 19 grand and, if you compared it to a new car from 2010, it would seem like it has all the bells and whistles.
I want a car with no bells or whistles. As Steve Martin once said, "four wheels and a ****in seat".
I betcha that car isn't there.
The Nissan dealerships near me don't even sell a Versa apparently. Not even on their website.

I’ve have yet to see a new Z in the wild or at a dealer.
 
I really wish someone would build a GD basic car. Safe, reliable, no frills. Think Honda Civic with no backup cameras, blue tooth, navigation, power anything............
Brand new 15 grand.
Heck a brand new Kia Rio is like 19 grand and, if you compared it to a new car from 2010, it would seem like it has all the bells and whistles.
I want a car with no bells or whistles. As Steve Martin once said, "four wheels and a ****in seat".

2023 Mitsubishi Mirage $15,991- original MSRP is at $17,991. It's down in Tampa, FL but it comes w/5 year 60k bumper to bumper warranty, 10 year powertrain from the factory and 4 star crash rating from NHTSA- I have no personal knowledge, experience nor history with the brand nor model. Just did a bit of googling to help you with your quest.
 
Alright. 10 grand. Four wheel and a ****in seat.
And not one of those Chinese 1 sester things.
C'mon, LFG!!!!! Somebody make me one of these!!!! If you build it, we will come
 
I really wish someone would build a GD basic car. Safe, reliable, no frills. Think Honda Civic with no backup cameras, blue tooth, navigation, power anything............
Brand new 15 grand.
Heck a brand new Kia Rio is like 19 grand and, if you compared it to a new car from 2010, it would seem like it has all the bells and whistles.
I want a car with no bells or whistles. As Steve Martin once said, "four wheels and a ****in seat".

2023 Mitsubishi Mirage $15,991- original MSRP is at $17,991. It's down in Tampa, FL but it comes w/5 year 60k bumper to bumper warranty, 10 year powertrain from the factory and 4 star crash rating from NHTSA- I have no personal knowledge, experience nor history with the brand nor model. Just did a bit of googling to help you with your quest.
Mitusbishi makes some decent low end stuff. For whatever reason just got blown out by Nissan. Feel like the Altima is a weaker offering than the Mirage overall.
 
Mitusbishi also had a really decent low end pure EV (i-MiEV) well before any other JP brands did, it didn't sell at all. The mfg. incentives on that thing for lease and purchase had it casting a shadow on like 12500 for a time before they bailed on it in the US market. The Leaf was more or less the same car tech wise and cost 3x as much. The i-MiEV was one of the few cars that actually made a decent case for Chad charging standard. Tiny battery packs could charge stupid fast on that standard, but it didn't catch on. Could go 20-80% in like 20 minutes.
 
It’s tough to know how long the rise in used car prices will last.

definitely wait until tax season is over - if there's any chance for some price drops it won't be until then
How true is this with the standard deduction changes? Are people really so bad at filling out their w2 forms? Was nearly sure the average refund was at like 40 year lows. It's so low it's impacting hr block bottom line as they make loans on those.
For too many people, overpaying taxes is their savings plan. Then they use their “found free money” to buy as car or whatever.

My wife and I were this way back when we had little to no money. Our tax return every year was enough to pay for our family vacation we take every year in June. We never tried to do "tax return planning" because we were fearful of making a mistake of not being able to take that trip.

It was the only one our family with little kids could afford. We only took one vacation a year. And we really couldn't save for it all year: we were living off of a contractors income and my wife working part time so she could be home with the kids.

So yeah, I know a lot of people do this. It's a little bit of a safety net for them. I've been there - it sucks to have to live that way. But it's reality for a lot of people.

I know you aren't poo-pooing that thought process - just sharing the experience of one family that had to rely on it.
 
I’ve been looking at new 4Runners for 4 months. They finally have a few in-stock, but they add on all this crap and want 3-4k over sticker. This is for the lower trims, not the TRD PROs.

I told them I guess I’m out…ridiculous
 
I’ve been looking at new 4Runners for 4 months. They finally have a few in-stock, but they add on all this crap and want 3-4k over sticker. This is for the lower trims, not the TRD PROs.

I told them I guess I’m out…ridiculous

2023 4Runner SR5 (very basic) has a $40k sticker but they're taking $1,000 off MSRP. It has a VIN, window sticker and it's listed on their website and they have other 4Runner's listed, not marked down as much but still, it's not over MSRP so there's that. To me, if I can't see a VIN, it's not real. If it's a used vehicle and I can't see a window sticker, I request to see it and if they won't supply one, I buy one from https://monroneylabels.com/ - I have no affiliation with any of this, just passing along info.
 
I really wish someone would build a GD basic car. Safe, reliable, no frills. Think Honda Civic with no backup cameras, blue tooth, navigation, power anything............
Brand new 15 grand.
Heck a brand new Kia Rio is like 19 grand and, if you compared it to a new car from 2010, it would seem like it has all the bells and whistles.
I want a car with no bells or whistles. As Steve Martin once said, "four wheels and a ****in seat".
Backup cameras are actually very important for safety. So much easier to see when backing out versus not having it.
I barely use mine, plus it's barely functional in the winter cause it's constantly obstructed.
Clean it off!
It’s tough to know how long the rise in used car prices will last.

definitely wait until tax season is over - if there's any chance for some price drops it won't be until then
How true is this with the standard deduction changes? Are people really so bad at filling out their w2 forms? Was nearly sure the average refund was at like 40 year lows. It's so low it's impacting hr block bottom line as they make loans on those.
For too many people, overpaying taxes is their savings plan. Then they use their “found free money” to buy as car or whatever.

My wife and I were this way back when we had little to no money. Our tax return every year was enough to pay for our family vacation we take every year in June. We never tried to do "tax return planning" because we were fearful of making a mistake of not being able to take that trip.

It was the only one our family with little kids could afford. We only took one vacation a year. And we really couldn't save for it all year: we were living off of a contractors income and my wife working part time so she could be home with the kids.

So yeah, I know a lot of people do this. It's a little bit of a safety net for them. I've been there - it sucks to have to live that way. But it's reality for a lot of people.

I know you aren't poo-pooing that thought process - just sharing the experience of one family that had to rely on it.

I definitely think it’s better to save every month yourself but Ultimately you need to do what gives you the greatest long term comfort.
We’re getting more money back this year than last year and I expected to actually owe. So I’m failing tax planning anyway 🤷
 
I’ve been looking at new 4Runners for 4 months. They finally have a few in-stock, but they add on all this crap and want 3-4k over sticker. This is for the lower trims, not the TRD PROs.

I told them I guess I’m out…ridiculous

2023 4Runner SR5 (very basic) has a $40k sticker but they're taking $1,000 off MSRP. It has a VIN, window sticker and it's listed on their website and they have other 4Runner's listed, not marked down as much but still, it's not over MSRP so there's that. To me, if I can't see a VIN, it's not real. If it's a used vehicle and I can't see a window sticker, I request to see it and if they won't supply one, I buy one from https://monroneylabels.com/ - I have no affiliation with any of this, just passing along info.
Maybe there is a slimmer of hope in the future!
 
I’ve been looking at new 4Runners for 4 months. They finally have a few in-stock, but they add on all this crap and want 3-4k over sticker. This is for the lower trims, not the TRD PROs.

I told them I guess I’m out…ridiculous

2023 4Runner SR5 (very basic) has a $40k sticker but they're taking $1,000 off MSRP. It has a VIN, window sticker and it's listed on their website and they have other 4Runner's listed, not marked down as much but still, it's not over MSRP so there's that. To me, if I can't see a VIN, it's not real. If it's a used vehicle and I can't see a window sticker, I request to see it and if they won't supply one, I buy one from https://monroneylabels.com/ - I have no affiliation with any of this, just passing along info.
Maybe there is a slimmer of hope in the future!
Additional dealer markup on the regular units will slowly come down this year. Toyota is still in the tightest inventory position.
 

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