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Cards, Fitzgerald not close to deal (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter azgroover
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mad sweeney
Footballguy
Don't you have to surge first, before you can resurge?
PatsFoxboro
Footballguy
Fitzgerald will be happy to play out his current contract and make his 32 million. The Cars have zero leverage and only risk pissing off their best player.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
there were a couple of odd things about graves' statements...
first, berry taking a pay cut probably speaks a lot more to how much time he has missed since his first & one good year there (a few years ago), than to his character...
i also did a double take when the article mentioned the were exhorting fitz to stay by appealing to his desire to play for a winner?
as noted, fitz has all the leverage (unless cards attempt to trade him... & trade may be difficult if he hasn't signed a new contract)... he can make a lot of money just by not making any changes next two seasons... if ARI wants to reup for THEIR purposes (slaray cap relief), they need to entice him in a way that makes sense on HIS terms... he isn't going to sign a bad contract just to get the team out of a bad contract they wrote...
first, berry taking a pay cut probably speaks a lot more to how much time he has missed since his first & one good year there (a few years ago), than to his character...
i also did a double take when the article mentioned the were exhorting fitz to stay by appealing to his desire to play for a winner?
as noted, fitz has all the leverage (unless cards attempt to trade him... & trade may be difficult if he hasn't signed a new contract)... he can make a lot of money just by not making any changes next two seasons... if ARI wants to reup for THEIR purposes (slaray cap relief), they need to entice him in a way that makes sense on HIS terms... he isn't going to sign a bad contract just to get the team out of a bad contract they wrote...
Pat Patriot
Footballguy
It amazes me that the NFL Players Association (it shouldnt because Gene Upshaw is their leader) doesnt work with the league to create a rookie salary cap similar to the NBA. The NFL Players collective bargaining agreement guarantees them a certain percentage of revenues. Why they wouldnt want to give a larger portion of that pie to veterans as opposed to unproven rookies is beyond me.
The fact that agents are using Rookie contracts, and the guarantees that go with them at the top of the draft as starting points, is going to make it difficult on GM's.
Arizona is in a tough spot. It is very difficult to have a non-QB count $14 million and then $17 million against the cap. Based solely on salary cap and circumstances that they have put themselves in, the Cardinals might be better off letting Fitz walk and resigning Bryant Johnson.
I dont think Fitz would be getting $27+ million in guarantees on the open market.
The fact that agents are using Rookie contracts, and the guarantees that go with them at the top of the draft as starting points, is going to make it difficult on GM's.
Arizona is in a tough spot. It is very difficult to have a non-QB count $14 million and then $17 million against the cap. Based solely on salary cap and circumstances that they have put themselves in, the Cardinals might be better off letting Fitz walk and resigning Bryant Johnson.
I dont think Fitz would be getting $27+ million in guarantees on the open market.
If Calvin Johnson got 27+ in guarantees there would be more than one team willing to give Fitz that. He's arguably the best WR in the NFL and he's only 24.
Pat Patriot
Footballguy
Please quote me ANY NFL contract with greater than $27 million in guarantees that was not a QB contract. Tom Brady didnt get that much in guarantees. There might be one you can quote but I cant think of one.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I was actually at the home win against the Chargers that got them into the playoffs, I lived in SD by then and went to visit the folks. Although I was never a Cards fan, I grew up there and went to ASU at the same time as Plummer, Tillman and a high school teammate/neighborhood kid Steve Bush TE (proof that a long snapper can make 10 mil in 8 years in the NFL) and always rooted for them when those two were on the team. The only thing fun about those bench seats in the blazing sun was a/ getting smashed just like I did in college and b/watching outnumbered Cards fans tussling with Cowboys fans in their only annual sellout. And for the record, my whole 6 person family went to the exploratory exhibition game at SunDevil Stadium to see if they could support an NFL team. Gb vs Horse Face Elway. As a lifetime Hawks fan (their lifetime not mine) I went just to see Johnny Bucktooth sacked in person. So I remember their 'dynasty', but other than that it's been 19 horrible seasons in the sun. Although I can tell you that in the new stadium it's a whole different story. Went there in the 06 season for a Seahawks game and could not believe the sea of red and the show of support for the team.
As for Fitz, he has the team by the short and curlies. As a Seahawks fan I'd love to see them cut him and I'd love to see them eat the cap space to keep him. Bidwell spent so long pinching pennies that when he started spending money he had no experience in it and made some blunders. So Fitz stays and makes 14 or 32 mil, winner Fitz! Or he leaves and gets a huge contract somewhere else with a ton up front, winner Fitz! Hell, if he got cut any front runner could grab him including his college town of Pittsburgh where Worthlessburger wants a tall WR. I highly doubt Fitz is worrying one iota about his contract situation with the Cards. Hopefully they and other teams will learn from this horrible contract.
I do think it's stupid to use another player's renegotiation as a ploy of good character and laugh at the idea that Fitz should stay with a "winner" like the Cards. Aside from beating the Seahawks once two years in a row, they're still cellar dwellers, they just had more company this season.
And my other great Cards memory is the last minute win over Minnesota that knocked the purple expletive eaters out of the playoffs. My boy Steve "caught" one of the two late TDs for the win. I think if it had been challenged it would've been overturned. Never seen a team so utterly destroyed as the Viqueens just sitting on the field like they all were concussed by Dresden style bombing.
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Right in the initial article.Parker wouldn't talk about contract details but did acknowledge that he is seeking more than the $27.2 million in guarantees that Detroit receiver Calvin Johnson, the second pick in last year's draft, received in his six-year deal.
delusional
Footballguy
Eagles? 
jerseys finest
Footballguy
makes the most sense. but as an eagles fan, i refuse to get my hopes up. They do have the cap space and one of the best "capologists" in the NFL to handle or restructure the deal fitz has right now. With Fitz, despite the division they are in, they will be a contender if DMac stays healthy(personally i think he does, the string of fluke injuries is over). Lito sheppard is quietly, but obviously on the block as he is seeking a new contract and the birds dont want to pay him what he thinks he deserves. Fitz has said philly is one of less then a handful of teams he would like to play for if a trade were the route it went. Random blurbs out of philly have been they will be actively pursuing a #1 WR once FA begins and fitz is at the top of their board.Fitz for Sheppard(with random draft picks and possibly other player exchanged as well) is a great deal for both teams. not purely player for player wise, but with all the surrounding circumstances included. does it happen? doubtful. is it the right move for both teams, assuming a contract cant and/or wont be worked out between fitz and the cards? definately.Eagles?
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delusional
Footballguy
Would set up the Eagles to draft McLovin in the 1st to fill that hole left by Lito in the future
3nOut
Footballguy
i thought they were talking about the Lins resurgence? the b]resurge comment, however, still applies.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
another way to look at it is the situation is somewhat unprecedented... there has never been a WR this good & this young potentially coming out in free agency with this much salary cap money available... if he were to come out in the next year or two, i think using calvin johnson as a starting point is VERY conservative... it shouldn't be a controversial statement to suggest that fitz is a much more proven commodity in the NFL...
erymer
Footballguy
jerseys finest
Footballguy
sounds like it, but anything is possible. It all depends on Fitz. If he refuses to sign a new contract and play his current one out, the team isn't going to be able to make any big name or even very solid free agent pick ups over the next 2 years (maybe 3 if they franchise tag him). In that time, Boldin is obviously going to be wanting a new contract as he has played above and beyond his current cotract. putting the cards in an even bigger bind. Thats not even counting the other big name players they have that want or need new contracts soon(dansby, wilson are 2 that pop into my head) They are not in good shape with the cap as is and unless the cards figure out some cap miracles, regardless of if the cap continues to rise at its pace, they are currently looking like a stagnant team that isn't going to get much better then it currently is. Hard for me to believe the cards think they are a superbowl team with the current roster. Sure they have some pieces, but a superbowl roster it is not.
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mad sweeney
Footballguy
I love it. Well we gave him a nice fat contract but never expected to have to pay it. He deserves it, but we expected to renegotiate and pay him less. On one hand, Fitz playing for his current contract seriously impedes his team, and therefore his own chances to win. But he earned his payday and deserves his money. Should he be forced to take less in order to help his team? Team oficials are pretty much calling him out in public to do so, which is pretty cheesy. Either way, whatever hurts the Cards chances (which is almost every Fitz scenario at this point) is fine by me.
redman
Footballguy
It's standard operating procedure for contracts over, say, three years in length to be designed to be cap friendly by backloading the contract, with the idea that they are renegotiated at some interim period of time. I'm not sure how I can see that as folly.
massraider
Footballguy
Isn't Fitz on his rookie deal? I don't think what you are saying is true of rookie deals.It's standard operating procedure for contracts over, say, three years in length to be designed to be cap friendly by backloading the contract, with the idea that they are renegotiated at some interim period of time. I'm not sure how I can see that as folly.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I realize that, especially with your team's MO, but I don't recall an incentive laden rookie contract biting a team so hard as this one does. Factor in the fact that they have so little room under the cap and several others who are in similar boats and it looks like some fairly poor cap management and expectations. And whether it's folly or not, the Cards are in a tough spot and in many ways lose out no matter what they do, and that pleases me.It's standard operating procedure for contracts over, say, three years in length to be designed to be cap friendly by backloading the contract, with the idea that they are renegotiated at some interim period of time. I'm not sure how I can see that as folly.
redman
Footballguy
Actually, you're right, although for the wrong reasons.Isn't Fitz on his rookie deal? I don't think what you are saying is true of rookie deals.It's standard operating procedure for contracts over, say, three years in length to be designed to be cap friendly by backloading the contract, with the idea that they are renegotiated at some interim period of time. I'm not sure how I can see that as folly.
Standard rookie contracts tend to be between one and four years, depending upon where (or if) they were drafted, however high draft picks get contracts that are longer, such as seven year contracts. Those tend to emphasize front-end bonus, and low salary. They do tend to get renegotiated, but usually because the player wants another good payday (after presumably producing well) rather than the team desiring to avoid the cap hit.This is precisely the way that Fitzgerald and the Cardinals are talking now - Fitz wants a big payday befitting the stature of the player he's developed into, and the team generally wants to keep him happy and is willing to discuss renegotiating but has the remaining years on his rookie deal to fall back on.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Who are you saying can fall back on the contract? It's the contract that is making renegotiations next to impossible since Fitz just has to show up the next 2 years and make $30 million.Actually, you're right, although for the wrong reasons.Isn't Fitz on his rookie deal? I don't think what you are saying is true of rookie deals.It's standard operating procedure for contracts over, say, three years in length to be designed to be cap friendly by backloading the contract, with the idea that they are renegotiated at some interim period of time. I'm not sure how I can see that as folly.
Standard rookie contracts tend to be between one and four years, depending upon where (or if) they were drafted, however high draft picks get contracts that are longer, such as seven year contracts. Those tend to emphasize front-end bonus, and low salary. They do tend to get renegotiated, but usually because the player wants another good payday (after presumably producing well) rather than the team desiring to avoid the cap hit.
This is precisely the way that Fitzgerald and the Cardinals are talking now - Fitz wants a big payday befitting the stature of the player he's developed into, and the team generally wants to keep him happy and is willing to discuss renegotiating but has the remaining years on his rookie deal to fall back on.
redman
Footballguy
I haven't looked up the terms of the contract. Do the base salary levels escalate that much in years 5 and 6? If so, that's a somewhat unusual rookie contract, but I would still expect the all parties involved to have assumed when it was signed that they'd renegotiate and extend before then. Again, people get too hung up on the total value of contracts, when so much of them are simply fluff and/or are there to simply allow amortization of large bonuses over the length of the deal to diminish cap impact.Who are you saying can fall back on the contract? It's the contract that is making renegotiations next to impossible since Fitz just has to show up the next 2 years and make $30 million.Actually, you're right, although for the wrong reasons.Isn't Fitz on his rookie deal? I don't think what you are saying is true of rookie deals.It's standard operating procedure for contracts over, say, three years in length to be designed to be cap friendly by backloading the contract, with the idea that they are renegotiated at some interim period of time. I'm not sure how I can see that as folly.
This is precisely the way that Fitzgerald and the Cardinals are talking now - Fitz wants a big payday befitting the stature of the player he's developed into, and the team generally wants to keep him happy and is willing to discuss renegotiating but has the remaining years on his rookie deal to fall back on.
massraider
Footballguy
I haven't heard that Fitz wanted a payday. All I have heard is that the Cards are having problems because of his big cap number. And those ridiculous cap numbers are the tail end of his rookie contract. For a rookie contract to contain not one, but two years with really bad cap numbers, that definitely strikes me as bad management. They hit a bullseye on a draft pick, he reached his escalators, and now the Cards are scrambling to adjust his deal.I would think the only way Fitz could help them out is by extending his deal. I don't think denying yourself the chance at free agency is a good move, business-wise.Actually, you're right, although for the wrong reasons.Isn't Fitz on his rookie deal? I don't think what you are saying is true of rookie deals.It's standard operating procedure for contracts over, say, three years in length to be designed to be cap friendly by backloading the contract, with the idea that they are renegotiated at some interim period of time. I'm not sure how I can see that as folly.
This is precisely the way that Fitzgerald and the Cardinals are talking now - Fitz wants a big payday befitting the stature of the player he's developed into, and the team generally wants to keep him happy and is willing to discuss renegotiating but has the remaining years on his rookie deal to fall back on.
I also think renegotiated rookie deals are a lot less common than you think. Extensions? Sure. But to have such unwieldy contract numbers at the end of a rook deal is unusual. That Cards exec can say all he wants about "expectaions", but if they were relying on Fitz to renegotiate and extend his deal, they were dreaming.
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They escalte quite a bit. His rookie contract was full of incentives, and he has hit those incentives. He is supposed to make $14.6 million this year, and $17.1 million next year.I haven't looked up the terms of the contract. Do the base salary levels escalate that much in years 5 and 6? If so, that's a somewhat unusual rookie contract, but I would still expect the all parties involved to have assumed when it was signed that they'd renegotiate and extend before then. Again, people get too hung up on the total value of contracts, when so much of them are simply fluff and/or are there to simply allow amortization of large bonuses over the length of the deal to diminish cap impact.Who are you saying can fall back on the contract? It's the contract that is making renegotiations next to impossible since Fitz just has to show up the next 2 years and make $30 million.Actually, you're right, although for the wrong reasons.Isn't Fitz on his rookie deal? I don't think what you are saying is true of rookie deals.It's standard operating procedure for contracts over, say, three years in length to be designed to be cap friendly by backloading the contract, with the idea that they are renegotiated at some interim period of time. I'm not sure how I can see that as folly.
This is precisely the way that Fitzgerald and the Cardinals are talking now - Fitz wants a big payday befitting the stature of the player he's developed into, and the team generally wants to keep him happy and is willing to discuss renegotiating but has the remaining years on his rookie deal to fall back on.
redman
Footballguy
Sorry - I've been using "renegotiate" and "extend" interchangeably. In truth, both of those occur simultaneously. I'd never expect the player to simply accept less over the same remaining life of his contract.I haven't heard that Fitz wanted a payday. All I have heard is that the Cards are having problems because of his big cap number. And those ridiculous cap numbers are the tail end of his rookie contract. For a rookie contract to contain not one, but two years with really bad cap numbers, that definitely strikes me as bad management. They hit a bullseye on a draft pick, he reached his escalators, and now the Cards are scrambling to adjust his deal.I would think the only way Fitz could help them out is by extending his deal. I don't think denying yourself the chance at free agency is a good move, business-wise.Actually, you're right, although for the wrong reasons.Isn't Fitz on his rookie deal? I don't think what you are saying is true of rookie deals.It's standard operating procedure for contracts over, say, three years in length to be designed to be cap friendly by backloading the contract, with the idea that they are renegotiated at some interim period of time. I'm not sure how I can see that as folly.
This is precisely the way that Fitzgerald and the Cardinals are talking now - Fitz wants a big payday befitting the stature of the player he's developed into, and the team generally wants to keep him happy and is willing to discuss renegotiating but has the remaining years on his rookie deal to fall back on.
I also think renegotiated rookie deals are a lot less common than you think. Extensions? Sure. But to have such unwieldy contract numbers at the end of a rook deal is unusual. That Cards exec can say all he wants about "expectaions", but if they were relying on Fitz to renegotiate and extend his deal, they were dreaming.
The Man With No Name
Footballguy
Does anyone know how much he has made in each season of his career?
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
The Cards dug the hole... now lie in it. This is what happens when you place all that money in the back end of the contract. The Cards only chance is to make him the richest WR ever... because if they don't; someone else will.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
good point, & with the cap expanding, there is a possibility of biggest ever-type contracts every few years... but fitz is definitely THAT GOOD to be mentioned in the same breath as the greatest WRs in the game (you don't really even need to qualify it with young WRs... he is just a great WR period)...one of the most highly touted collegiate WRs prospects ever, one of the best starts to a career for an NFL WR (along with guys like moss & boldin), squeaky clean, great football IQ, coveted work ethic... how could he NOT command one of the highest contracts ever for a WR...some people think he isn't blazing fast, but i think he ran a 4.4 at his Combine &/or Pitt pro day... he may not have the most explosive RAC skills among the elite WRs (guys like steve smith, chad johnson), but he partly compensates by being one of the best red zone targets in the game (tall, big, great hops, strong hands, outstanding athleticism & ball skills to high point the ball, concentration & tenacity to get the majority of 50/50 balls, etc)... EXCEPTIONALLY well rounded, with arguably no critical flaws in ANY facet of his overall game (don't think he has rep as an ELITE blocker, but he has a big body & is willing & able, so not necessarily a slouch, either... & it isn't like a lot of other elite WRs were ALSO known as elite blockers)...
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jerseys finest
Footballguy
if im not mistaken, the cardinals are already 5 mil over the cap this year. The intangibles with Fitz are undoubted, and he deserves to be paid as such, his contract is just debilitating to the cardinals team if he doesn't renegotiate his current deal. With his numbers, over the next 3 years (14.3, 17.1 and 20+ mil if they choose to franchise him), it will force them not to retain some players they want, keep them from signing any major FA's, and they wont be able to sign many other big players of their own who will want/need contracts over those next 3 years. Fitz has no need to renegotiate other then if he really really wants to stay with the cards. If that were the case, i think it would be done already. It just doesn't seem smart for a team in the cardinals situation to hold onto a contract like that. it will make it nearly impossible for them to improve their team in those next 3 years unless he decides to renegotiate or they figure out some cap miracles.
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BoltBacker
Footballguy
Sounds to me like Parker wants to find out how much Moss/Berrian/Bryant Johnson/Hackett/Stallworth are going to get before signing anything. Right now he's looking at Calvin Johnson's contract as a starting point for negotiations and if someone gives one of those guys mad $ in a market with a lot of teams with cap space then he'll have a new starting point in negotiations for the extension. I can understand why Graves would want this extension done sooner than later but I can also see why Parker would want it later than sooner. Parker's holding all the cards... Graves just looks dumb talking to the press about any of it. He looks like a whiny tool that's trying to paint Fitz and his agent as the reason ARZ won't be able to get anything done this off season because they signed the contract he offered.
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
The Cards need to make this desicion soon... B Johnson is going to become a FA on Feb 29th... if they can not keep Fitz, they can not stand to lose Johnson either.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Based on their last statements I think they are keeping Fitz period. How much they can afford to put around Fitz depends on when he signs the extension. BJohnson is gone imo. How can the afford to pay Fitz/Boldin/Johnson even after Fitz lowers his cap hit this season with an extension? IMO Johnson is going to get way overpaid by someone anyway. If you have Fitz/Boldin you certainly don't need to overpay to keep Johnson.
King of the Wolfies
Footballguy
I've heard the only thing holding Fitz back from signing a new contract is the number of years. Fitz wants out in 4 and the Cards want 6.
LILB811
Footballguy
Looks like there will not be a restructured deal done today.
This hurts the Cardinals big time going forward. Does this make them more likely to move Fitz even though they said they would not?
This hurts the Cardinals big time going forward. Does this make them more likely to move Fitz even though they said they would not?
That is the multi million dollar question Graves will have to ask. If they move Fitz, how much of a cap hit would they take?
massraider
Footballguy
A lot less than the $32 mill they owe him over the next two years.
dagwood
Footballguy
It cracks me up that Fitz signs an incentive laden contract, produces, the incentives kick in and now he is made to feel like the BG if he doesn't redo his deal. According to the team, he will be holding them back from signing people to get better. He will be the one forcing them to cut good players.
WHAT ABOUT THE STIFFS WITH GUARANTEED DEALS WHO ARE NOT PRODUCING!
Why doesn't the team go to them and request they renegotiate.
Fitz is doing exactly what he should be doing...period.
WHAT ABOUT THE STIFFS WITH GUARANTEED DEALS WHO ARE NOT PRODUCING!
Why doesn't the team go to them and request they renegotiate.
Fitz is doing exactly what he should be doing...period.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
It is not very often a player holds all the (for lack of a better word) cards.
Fitzs hand: http://tiptonholdemhouse.home.insightbb.com/royal_flush.jpg
It can`t be beat.
Fitzs hand: http://tiptonholdemhouse.home.insightbb.com/royal_flush.jpg
It can`t be beat.
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Winning IS Everything
Footballguy
LILB811
Footballguy
When Fitz signed his rookie contract, it was structured so that if he performed above expectations he would have leverage in negotiating a new contract. The point was that after the 2007 season, he would sign an enormous contract with Arizona with tons and tons of guaranteed money, but reducing his huge cap hit for 2008 and 2009. The two sides haven’t been able to agree to this point, and unless they do, Arizona will have to take this hit or trade him. They don’t want him to take less money. They want to sign him to a new contract that reduces their cap number. Fitz is gonna get paid, it’s just unsure by who.
When Fitz signed his rookie contract, it was structured so that if he performed above expectations he would have leverage in negotiating a new contract. The point was that after the 2007 season, he would sign an enormous contract with Arizona with tons and tons of guaranteed money, but reducing his huge cap hit for 2008 and 2009. The two sides haven’t been able to agree to this point, and unless they do, Arizona will have to take this hit or trade him. They don’t want him to take less money. They want to sign him to a new contract that reduces their cap number. Fitz is gonna get paid, it’s just unsure by who.
Well, let's say you're Fitz, and you don't renegotiate, you get $14Mil this year, and then next year Arizona cuts you because your salary is $17Mil, not guaranteed. He is 25 becomes a FA and get's $30Mil guaranteed or so next year, now he can get $40+Million guaranteed , why should he take $25Mil guaranteed to help the Cards now?
This assumes he stays healthy and has a decent year. Fitz doesn't need to do anything right now. Why renegotiate, it hurts him long term.
Well, let's say you're Fitz, and you don't renegotiate, you get $14Mil this year, and then next year Arizona cuts you because your salary is $17Mil, not guaranteed. He is 25 becomes a FA and get's $30Mil guaranteed or so next year, now he can get $40+Million guaranteed , why should he take $25Mil guaranteed to help the Cards now?
This assumes he stays healthy and has a decent year. Fitz doesn't need to do anything right now. Why renegotiate, it hurts him long term.
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dagwood
Footballguy
The bolded quotes are the type of nonsense I am talking about.
LILB811
Footballguy
It's the same reason players can't stand the franchise tag being placed on them. Financial and family security are usually most important. I'm sure he'd rather have that now.
