Carolina RB situation moving forward (2 Viewers)

[rawdog]

Own both Williams/Stewart. And like many in that boat, was anticipating Deangelo falling away into a change of pace role while Stewart evolved into not just the goaline guy but the workhorse guy.

Instead, it seems to work more like Tennessee, where Williams is Chris Johnson (though not as good) and Stewart plays the LenDale tough yards role moving forward.

Anybody see a second-half shift to Stewart still possible or is it basically going to be what it is b/c they're winning, etc?

It's an awful guessing game every week but that's what you get I guess for investing in a RBBC.

 

[Kiddnets]

I assume it will be status quo the rest of the year - I like Stewart for next year alot though - what is dangelo's contract status? Are we just right back in a Deshaun/Deangelo situation the next few years? Why does Car spend high draft picks for RBs only to use them as a GL/change of pace RB - dont they know they can get that in later rds....

 

[Warhogs]

I think it is what it is unless one of them suffers an injury.

 

[p00h]

not going to be status quo, and certainly not going to be more towards stewart. Going to be deangelo 20+ carries, and stewart getting some looks here and there. I think the vulturing will lessen as well. If they're inside the 3, I can see them trotting stewart out there, but other than that scenario, if deangelo is in there, and they're inside the 10, they will likely keep deangelo in. He's really playing pretty damn well...

 

[thehornet]

not going to be status quo, and certainly not going to be more towards stewart. Going to be deangelo 20+ carries, and stewart getting some looks here and there. I think the vulturing will lessen as well. If they're inside the 3, I can see them trotting stewart out there, but other than that scenario, if deangelo is in there, and they're inside the 10, they will likely keep deangelo in. He's really playing pretty damn well...

DeAngelo is playing well, but this is not true. Stewart will get carries. Each game will dictate how each are used.

 

[Englishteacher]

not going to be status quo, and certainly not going to be more towards stewart. Going to be deangelo 20+ carries, and stewart getting some looks here and there. I think the vulturing will lessen as well. If they're inside the 3, I can see them trotting stewart out there, but other than that scenario, if deangelo is in there, and they're inside the 10, they will likely keep deangelo in. He's really playing pretty damn well...

no.

 

[T Bell]

not going to be status quo, and certainly not going to be more towards stewart. Going to be deangelo 20+ carries, and stewart getting some looks here and there. I think the vulturing will lessen as well. If they're inside the 3, I can see them trotting stewart out there, but other than that scenario, if deangelo is in there, and they're inside the 10, they will likely keep deangelo in. He's really playing pretty damn well...

DeAngelo is playing well, but this is not true. Stewart will get carries. Each game will dictate how each are used.

:XThese two guys appear for the short term to be on equal footing, with Fox sticking with whoever has the hot hand for any given game. If they're both running well, they both get carries. It's an impossible situation to predict. I wish it were different as I'm as Stewart owner, but that's the way it is, for this year at least.

 

[Englishteacher]

Stewart is better than Deangello but this is going to remain RBBC. They like what they have going on now. John Fox is a pound it out coach so for him this current RBBC deal helps him do that. Slight chance later in the year we see Stewart get a little more of the work than what's going on but this could be it for the rest of the year. Slight edge to Stewart just bc he's the GL back.

 

[Deuce'sWild]

Stewart is better than Deangello but this is going to remain RBBC. They like what they have going on now. John Fox is a pound it out coach so for him this current RBBC deal helps him do that. Slight chance later in the year we see Stewart get a little more of the work than what's going on but this could be it for the rest of the year. Slight edge to Stewart just bc he's the GL back.

I own both and I'm not so sure Stu is the GL back. Depends on the package. DWill seems to get just as many GL looks.

 

[Da Guru]

D-Willy is playing much better than I thought he would.

I thought J-Stew would slowly take over the feature back role but that has not been the case.

The NFL is more of a two RB league now rather than to have onbe guy getting 90% of the carries.

 

[Black]

Own both Williams/Stewart. And like many in that boat, was anticipating Deangelo falling away into a change of pace role while Stewart evolved into not just the goaline guy but the workhorse guy.Instead, it seems to work more like Tennessee, where Williams is Chris Johnson (though not as good) and Stewart plays the LenDale tough yards role moving forward.Anybody see a second-half shift to Stewart still possible or is it basically going to be what it is b/c they're winning, etc?It's an awful guessing game every week but that's what you get I guess for investing in a RBBC.

The CAR backfield is like a poor-man's TEN backfield. I own all 4 backs, and often start LenDale/CJ4.24. I have tried to start DeAngelo/Stewart against weak DEF, but haven't had much luck catching DeAngelo's good games.I should have learned, as in years past, I have had Davis/Foster, Foster/DeAngelo....and Fox always starts the Vet, spells with the rookie.I have thought to possibly try to trade DeAngelo after getting nearly 100 yards and a TD and sit on Jon Stewart, but might be willing to trade Jon Stewart and keep DeAngelo for games vs. bad DEF when I need a Flex. Other than that, it's a waiting and guessing game.

 

[Kiddnets]

anyone have any thoughts on how this will shake out in 2009?

 

[simey]

I assume it will be status quo the rest of the year - I like Stewart for next year alot though - what is dangelo's contract status?

Deangelo has two more years left on his contract. Fox loves to run the ball, and he loves having two good RB's. It will be a RBBC for some time in Pantherville.

 

[NDMatt]

not going to be status quo, and certainly not going to be more towards stewart. Going to be deangelo 20+ carries, and stewart getting some looks here and there. I think the vulturing will lessen as well. If they're inside the 3, I can see them trotting stewart out there, but other than that scenario, if deangelo is in there, and they're inside the 10, they will likely keep deangelo in. He's really playing pretty damn well...

DeAngelo is playing well, but this is not true. Stewart will get carries. Each game will dictate how each are used.

Does anyone have any insight as to which games/matchup would indicate a larger role for either Williams or Stewart? It seems it would be more valuable to be able to forecast which RB would carry the larger role as opposed to looking back on it...

 

[FantasyTrader]

anyone have any thoughts on how this will shake out in 2009?

It's a real shame DeAngelo didn't show this passion until he was faced with extinction. I watched DeAngelo in several games his first couple of years and this year - he's just a different RB. It's almost like it finally dawned on him that any run could be his last and he's running with as much passion as I've seen out of any RB this year. Too bad it took the Panthers tying up an extremely talented back to make that happen. If it ain't broke, I don't see John Fox fixing it. One of two things will need to happen for one of these two to become a top 10 RB - salary cap or injury. To me, the undervalued name is DeAngelo. He's only 25 years old and he ain't DeShaun Foster. DWill has has always had the talent and if he's finally decided to buckle down and throw his heart into this - look out.

Most of the talk I hear is about Stewart, how unfortunate this situation is for such a talented rookie. IMO, we could look back on this in a couple of years and DWill was being suppressed by this as much as the rook.

 

[Tau837]

Surprised at how people are sticking with their belief that it will be relatively equal going forward or even still shifting towards Stewart later this year. I posted this yesterday in the Williams thread:

Williams 4.4 ypc on 120 carriesStewart 3.8 ypc on 96 carriesWilliams 6.3 ypr on 12 catchesStewart 3.0 ypr on 4 catchesWilliams 0 fumbles lostStewart 1 fumble lostIt gets worse for Stewart. Check their splits by month:Stewart in September: 4.3 ypc on 46 carries and no catchesStewart in October: 3.2 ypc on 50 carries and 3.0 ypr on 4 catches and the 1 lost fumbleWilliams in September: 3.7 ypc on 54 carries and 4.0 ypr on 6 catchesWilliams in October: 4.9 ypc on 66 carries and 8.7 ypr on 6 catchesI would not sell high on Williams.1. Stewart is trending down and Williams is trending up.2. Williams is presumably better in pass protection.3. Stewart is Carolina's #1 kickoff returner.4. Carolina is in position to secure a first round bye in the playoffs if they keep playing well, meaning they will give the ball to the players that put them in the best position to win without regard to other considerations.IMO the stage is set for Williams to be featured the rest of the way, with Stewart taking on a lesser role.

 

[maxwelledison]

Stewart is better than Deangello but this is going to remain RBBC. They like what they have going on now. John Fox is a pound it out coach so for him this current RBBC deal helps him do that. Slight chance later in the year we see Stewart get a little more of the work than what's going on but this could be it for the rest of the year. Slight edge to Stewart just bc he's the GL back.

People need to stop saying this because there is simply no evidence for it whatsoever.

 

[BobbyLayne]

2. Williams is presumably better in pass protection.

While I agree with some of your analysis, just a point of information on this one...you're presuming because Stewart is the rook and D-Will the vet, the young guy is deficient. Not true; DeAngelo's poor pass blocking has been cited throughout his career, while the bigger stronger back was praised from the get go that he was ahead the usual rookie curve in this area.That was the assessment back in preseason, and held true the first few weeks of the season...honestly haven't seen the Panthers live so not sure if it still holds true.

 

[BobbyLayne]

3. Stewart is Carolina's #1 kickoff returner.

Incorrect, Mark Jones has taken all kick returns the last 2 games. Stewart had exactly 1 kickoff return Week 6 Week 5, so he has been phased out of that role.Sorry for being a stickler...loved everything else you wrote, think it's a spot on assessment. 52% of carries in Sept v. 57% in October seems insignificant, but couple with Williams far more effective results, I think it trends to 60/40. Fox loves to mix the styles (like many NFL coaches these days), so no way does Stewart become marginalized, but I do think there is clear preference.I also think there is no loyalty factor at play here; whoever is the hot hand will get the carries, and the flow of each game will dictate the ratio at times. If Stewart busts off a long one like he did in preseason, I could see him getting fed 20 times in a game. I could also see him going right back to 8-10 touches the very next week after that happened.

 

[Tau837]

2. Williams is presumably better in pass protection.

While I agree with some of your analysis, just a point of information on this one...you're presuming because Stewart is the rook and D-Will the vet, the young guy is deficient. Not true; DeAngelo's poor pass blocking has been cited throughout his career, while the bigger stronger back was praised from the get go that he was ahead the usual rookie curve in this area.That was the assessment back in preseason, and held true the first few weeks of the season...honestly haven't seen the Panthers live so not sure if it still holds true.

I know pass protection was cited in the past as a problem for Williams, but I thought I had read/heard that he has improved in that area this year. Can any homers comment on this?Plus, I thought Williams had been playing the role of third down back... doesn't that imply that he is better at pass protection? I don't know how to figure this out from stats and have seen no Panthers games since they are not on in my area. Williams has had 20 touches on 3rd down, compared to 10 for Stewart, but that is not necessarily conclusive.

Edit to add: A Google search turned up several preseason references to the fact that Williams improved his pass protection during this past offseason. I also found this from 9/17/08:

INSIDE THE GAME: One thing to keep in mind when it comes to Carolina’s running back tandem.

As of right now, Williams is better in pass protection, which is not unusual considering Stewart is a rookie who is still learning the offense.

After one play on Sunday where Jake Delhomme got sacked, the Panthers immediately pulled Stewart and put in Williams on the next play, an obvious passing down. Whether that was a coincidence or not remains unclear, but it seemed a rather obvious change. When asked to compare their blocking ability, Fox avoided the question by saying, “They are different backs but they are both very effective.”

 

[simey]

3. Stewart is Carolina's #1 kickoff returner.

Incorrect, Mark Jones has taken all kick returns the last 2 games. Stewart had exactly 1 kickoff return Week 6 Week 5, so he has been phased out of that role.

Stewart got shaken up from a really hard hit the last time he did a kickoff return, and Fox said he didn't want him returning anymore unless they were short on returners. He doesn't want him hurt.

 

[T Bell]

3. Stewart is Carolina's #1 kickoff returner.

Incorrect, Mark Jones has taken all kick returns the last 2 games. Stewart had exactly 1 kickoff return Week 6 Week 5, so he has been phased out of that role.

Stewart got shaken up from a really hard hit the last time he did a kickoff return, and Fox said he didn't want him returning anymore unless they were short on returners. He doesn't want him hurt.

Apparently it took that hard hit on Stewart to teach Fox that Stewart could be hit hard while returning kicks. You see? He can be taught!

 

[Tau837]

3. Stewart is Carolina's #1 kickoff returner.

Incorrect, Mark Jones has taken all kick returns the last 2 games. Stewart had exactly 1 kickoff return Week 6 Week 5, so he has been phased out of that role.

OK, that's what I get for using ESPN's depth chart.

Sorry for being a stickler...loved everything else you wrote, think it's a spot on assessment. 52% of carries in Sept v. 57% in October seems insignificant, but couple with Williams far more effective results, I think it trends to 60/40. Fox loves to mix the styles (like many NFL coaches these days), so no way does Stewart become marginalized, but I do think there is clear preference.I also think there is no loyalty factor at play here; whoever is the hot hand will get the carries, and the flow of each game will dictate the ratio at times. If Stewart busts off a long one like he did in preseason, I could see him getting fed 20 times in a game. I could also see him going right back to 8-10 touches the very next week after that happened.

 

[sinatravolta]

I haven't done a detailed analysis - but it has looked to me like when Carolina is ahead - it's a more even split and maybe going in Stewart's direction. When they're behind or in passing mode - it's looked like Williams gets more chances.

But I agree there is also a trend towards Williams in general. I would think something like 60/40 Williams the rest of the way - but knowing that's it's also going to vary from game to game.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Edit to add: A Google search turned up several preseason references to the fact that Williams improved his pass protection during this past offseason. I also found this from 9/17/08:

INSIDE THE GAME: One thing to keep in mind when it comes to Carolina’s running back tandem.

As of right now, Williams is better in pass protection, which is not unusual considering Stewart is a rookie who is still learning the offense.

After one play on Sunday where Jake Delhomme got sacked, the Panthers immediately pulled Stewart and put in Williams on the next play, an obvious passing down. Whether that was a coincidence or not remains unclear, but it seemed a rather obvious change. When asked to compare their blocking ability, Fox avoided the question by saying, “They are different backs but they are both very effective.”

That kind of goes along with the other stuff you hear about DeAngelo...he's more professional, takes on more of a leadership role in the locker room...props for him growing up and working hard.I drafted Stewart but I've been very impressed/suprised with Williams.

 

[Tau837]

One more thing. Some will tend to dismiss the differences in ypc based on Stewart getting the short yardage and GL work.

Stewart has 13 carries for 41 yards in situations with 0-2 yards to go (1st through 4th downs). Remove those carries, and with 3+ yards to go, he has 83/321 rushing... 3.87 ypc. Williams only has 2 carries for 6 yards in such situations, so his ypc with 3+ yards to go is 118 carries for 516 yards... 4.37 ypc. So it is clear Stewart is the short yardage back, no doubt about it. But it is also clear that Williams is better in all other situations.

Inside the red zone, Stewart has 15 touches, all carries, for 55 yards, 5 TDs, and 1 fumble lost. Williams has 13 touches (12 carries, 1 reception) for 55 yards, 3 TDs, and no fumbles lost. Looks pretty even to me... so I don't really see an edge for Stewart as a red zone back. Now, if it is short yardage in the red zone, including within a few yards of the goal line, he probably is the guy.

I could see this evolving to a largely situational split, with Stewart also providing a breather for Williams in addition to short yardage and mop up duties.

 

[T Bell]

One more thing. Some will tend to dismiss the differences in ypc based on Stewart getting the short yardage and GL work.Stewart has 13 carries for 41 yards in situations with 0-2 yards to go (1st through 4th downs). Remove those carries, and with 3+ yards to go, he has 83/321 rushing... 3.87 ypc. Williams only has 2 carries for 6 yards in such situations, so his ypc with 3+ yards to go is 118 carries for 516 yards... 4.37 ypc. So it is clear Stewart is the short yardage back, no doubt about it. But it is also clear that Williams is better in all other situations.Inside the red zone, Stewart has 15 touches, all carries, for 55 yards, 5 TDs, and 1 fumble lost. Williams has 13 touches (12 carries, 1 reception) for 55 yards, 3 TDs, and no fumbles lost. Looks pretty even to me... so I don't really see an edge for Stewart as a red zone back. Now, if it is short yardage in the red zone, including within a few yards of the goal line, he probably is the guy.I could see this evolving to a largely situational split, with Stewart also providing a breather for Williams in addition to short yardage and mop up duties.

Here's their breakdown by down:1st down:

NAME 	POS 	YR 	RSH 	RSHYD 	YD/RSH 	FD 	RSHTD 	FANT PT1	DeAngelo Williams	rb	2008	62	256	4.13	8	0	27.302	Jonathan Stewart	rb	2008	44	180	4.09	6	3	37.20

2nd down:

NAME 	POS 	YR 	RSH 	RSHYD 	YD/RSH 	FD 	RSHTD 	FANT PT1	DeAngelo Williams	rb	2008	46	170	3.70	10	1	24.102	Jonathan Stewart	rb	2008	40	140	3.50	9	1	20.00

3rd down:

NAME 	POS 	YR 	RSH 	RSHYD 	YD/RSH 	FD 	RSHTD 	FANT PT1	DeAngelo Williams	rb	2008	13	99	7.62	5	2	38.702	Jonathan Stewart	rb	2008	10	37	3.70	4	1	9.70

4th down:

NAME 	POS 	YR 	RSH 	RSHYD 	YD/RSH 	FD 	RSHTD 	FANT PT1	Jonathan Stewart	rb	2008	1	2	2.00	1	0	0.20

This looks to me like the big difference here is 3rd down runs, where Williams averages 7.62 ypc and Stewart averages 3.7 ypc. Is this because Williams is the beneficiary of cheap yards on draws on 3rd-and-long while Stewart, as the short yardage back, has to slog it out for his 3rd down yards on 3rd-and-short? Let's find out:3rd down and 4 or less:

NAME 	POS 	YR 	RSH 	RSHYD 	YD/RSH 	FD 	RSHTD 	FANT PT1	DeAngelo Williams	rb	2008	1	15	15.00	1	1	13.902	Jonathan Stewart	rb	2008	7	19	2.71	4	1	7.90

3rd down and 5 or more:

NAME 	POS 	YR 	RSH 	RSHYD 	YD/RSH 	FD 	RSHTD 	FANT PT1	DeAngelo Williams	rb	2008	12	84	7.00	4	1	24.802	Jonathan Stewart	rb	2008	3	18	6.00	0	0	1.80

The answer? Yep, DeAngelo Williams gets the cheap 3rd down yards more often, while Stewart gets the tough assignments on 3rd down. Of note, their ypc average on 3rd down and 5 or more is very similar. This isn't a put-down of Williams who has done well with his opportunities. Rather, it explains the descrepancy between their numbers and shows that they're much more evenly matched than some might be thinking.

 

[ninerfanatic492000]

from what i've seen deangelo has scored many of his TD's from like 10-15yards out. he hasn't necessarily been in on traditional goaline work.

 

[thehornet]

Stewart is better than Deangello but this is going to remain RBBC. They like what they have going on now. John Fox is a pound it out coach so for him this current RBBC deal helps him do that. Slight chance later in the year we see Stewart get a little more of the work than what's going on but this could be it for the rest of the year. Slight edge to Stewart just bc he's the GL back.

People need to stop saying this because there is simply no evidence for it whatsoever.

please....DeAngelo Williams is only effective because of what Stewart brings to the table. If Stewart doesnt pound the middle, defenses game plan directly for DeAngelo who is best on the outskirts and weak inside tackles. Pro defenses are too quick getting outside for DeAngelo type RB's who's best features are getting to the outside.

 

[FantasyTrader]

Stewart is better than Deangello but this is going to remain RBBC. They like what they have going on now. John Fox is a pound it out coach so for him this current RBBC deal helps him do that. Slight chance later in the year we see Stewart get a little more of the work than what's going on but this could be it for the rest of the year. Slight edge to Stewart just bc he's the GL back.

People need to stop saying this because there is simply no evidence for it whatsoever.

please....DeAngelo Williams is only effective because of what Stewart brings to the table. If Stewart doesnt pound the middle, defenses game plan directly for DeAngelo who is best on the outskirts and weak inside tackles. Pro defenses are too quick getting outside for DeAngelo type RB's who's best features are getting to the outside.

I think you're wrong. Some of DeAngelo's better runs this year have been straight up the gut.

 

[BalcoBomber]

I am a Stewart owner and would rather have DeAngelo. Agreed that Stewart is trending down and DeAngelo is trending up. The only way Stewart breaks into my line-up is with an injury to DeAngelo making Stewart a full-time starter.

 

[Tau837]

DeAngelo Williams is only effective because of what Stewart brings to the table. If Stewart doesnt pound the middle, defenses game plan directly for DeAngelo who is best on the outskirts and weak inside tackles. Pro defenses are too quick getting outside for DeAngelo type RB's who's best features are getting to the outside.

This is false. Here are Williams' splits from this season so far:Right Sideline 14/57 (4.1 ypc)

Right Side 20/64 (3.2 ypc)

Middle 57/278 (4.9 ypc)

Left Side 14/68 (4.9 ypc)

Left Sideline 14/56 (4.0 ypc)

Here are his splits from last year:

Right Sideline 22/70 (3.2 ypc)

Right Side 51/199 (3.9 ypc)

Middle 36/201 (5.6 ypc)

Left Side 21/177 (8.4 ypc)

Left Sideline 14/70 (5.0 ypc)

 

[T Bell]

Stewart is better than Deangello but this is going to remain RBBC. They like what they have going on now. John Fox is a pound it out coach so for him this current RBBC deal helps him do that. Slight chance later in the year we see Stewart get a little more of the work than what's going on but this could be it for the rest of the year. Slight edge to Stewart just bc he's the GL back.

People need to stop saying this because there is simply no evidence for it whatsoever.

please....DeAngelo Williams is only effective because of what Stewart brings to the table. If Stewart doesnt pound the middle, defenses game plan directly for DeAngelo who is best on the outskirts and weak inside tackles. Pro defenses are too quick getting outside for DeAngelo type RB's who's best features are getting to the outside.

I think you're wrong. Some of DeAngelo's better runs this year have been straight up the gut.

By all means, everyone keep arguing about runs up the middle and who's faster, and ignore the fact that I've solved the mystery regarding how these guys are used differently.

 

[thehornet]

DeAngelo Williams is only effective because of what Stewart brings to the table. If Stewart doesnt pound the middle, defenses game plan directly for DeAngelo who is best on the outskirts and weak inside tackles. Pro defenses are too quick getting outside for DeAngelo type RB's who's best features are getting to the outside.

This is false. Here are Williams' splits from this season so far:Right Sideline 14/57 (4.1 ypc)

Right Side 20/64 (3.2 ypc)

Middle 57/278 (4.9 ypc)

Left Side 14/68 (4.9 ypc)

Left Sideline 14/56 (4.0 ypc)

Here are his splits from last year:

Right Sideline 22/70 (3.2 ypc)

Right Side 51/199 (3.9 ypc)

Middle 36/201 (5.6 ypc)

Left Side 21/177 (8.4 ypc)

Left Sideline 14/70 (5.0 ypc)

no offense, but you missed the most important part of the paragraph. DeAngelo is able to run up the middle because Stewart does it so effectively. IF DeAngelo was alone, he wouldnt have half of his success. They compliment eachother well, but if there is one guy between the two that is a workhorse and an everydown back, its Stewart. The crazy thing about Stewart is that he can get outside too. Some people see a couple of good games by DeAngelo and all fo a sudden he is the guy to own. Let's bump this later in the year, next year, or whenever....fantasy footballers are so finicky and lose faith so fast.

 

[FantasyTrader]

DeAngelo Williams is only effective because of what Stewart brings to the table. If Stewart doesnt pound the middle, defenses game plan directly for DeAngelo who is best on the outskirts and weak inside tackles. Pro defenses are too quick getting outside for DeAngelo type RB's who's best features are getting to the outside.

This is false. Here are Williams' splits from this season so far:Right Sideline 14/57 (4.1 ypc)

Right Side 20/64 (3.2 ypc)

Middle 57/278 (4.9 ypc)

Left Side 14/68 (4.9 ypc)

Left Sideline 14/56 (4.0 ypc)

Here are his splits from last year:

Right Sideline 22/70 (3.2 ypc)

Right Side 51/199 (3.9 ypc)

Middle 36/201 (5.6 ypc)

Left Side 21/177 (8.4 ypc)

Left Sideline 14/70 (5.0 ypc)

no offense, but you missed the most important part of the paragraph. DeAngelo is able to run up the middle because Stewart does it so effectively. IF DeAngelo was alone, he wouldnt have half of his success. They compliment eachother well, but if there is one guy between the two that is a workhorse and an everydown back, its Stewart. The crazy thing about Stewart is that he can get outside too. Some people see a couple of good games by DeAngelo and all fo a sudden he is the guy to own. Let's bump this later in the year, next year, or whenever....fantasy footballers are so finicky and lose faith so fast.

I'm genuinely trying to understand your reasoning. Are you saying the reason DWill is able to run up the middle is because JStew is running it up the middle? And if this really is your reasoning - this would be the 1st time I've ever seen the argument used that a RB who's getting 12 attempts per game is wearing down the D for the back who's getting more attempts per game. And for the record, I love Jonathan Stewart. I just don't see why the need in RBBC's, to make one guy the engine that's driving it's success and another guy the RB that's living off of the other's success. Maybe <gasp> it's possible they're making each other better!

 

[Tau837]

DeAngelo Williams is only effective because of what Stewart brings to the table. If Stewart doesnt pound the middle, defenses game plan directly for DeAngelo who is best on the outskirts and weak inside tackles. Pro defenses are too quick getting outside for DeAngelo type RB's who's best features are getting to the outside.

This is false. Here are Williams' splits from this season so far:Right Sideline 14/57 (4.1 ypc)

Right Side 20/64 (3.2 ypc)

Middle 57/278 (4.9 ypc)

Left Side 14/68 (4.9 ypc)

Left Sideline 14/56 (4.0 ypc)

Here are his splits from last year:

Right Sideline 22/70 (3.2 ypc)

Right Side 51/199 (3.9 ypc)

Middle 36/201 (5.6 ypc)

Left Side 21/177 (8.4 ypc)

Left Sideline 14/70 (5.0 ypc)

no offense, but you missed the most important part of the paragraph. DeAngelo is able to run up the middle because Stewart does it so effectively. IF DeAngelo was alone, he wouldnt have half of his success. They compliment eachother well, but if there is one guy between the two that is a workhorse and an everydown back, its Stewart. The crazy thing about Stewart is that he can get outside too. Some people see a couple of good games by DeAngelo and all fo a sudden he is the guy to own. Let's bump this later in the year, next year, or whenever....fantasy footballers are so finicky and lose faith so fast.

Stewart wasn't there last year to make it easy for Williams to run effectively up the middle, yet he averaged 5.6 ypc. Who was making it easy for him then, Deshaun Foster? I haven't lost faith in Stewart. It's not so much about him to me. I have felt all along that Williams has been very underrated and he's showing it.

 

[Tau837]

DeAngelo Williams is only effective because of what Stewart brings to the table. If Stewart doesnt pound the middle, defenses game plan directly for DeAngelo who is best on the outskirts and weak inside tackles. Pro defenses are too quick getting outside for DeAngelo type RB's who's best features are getting to the outside.

This is false. Here are Williams' splits from this season so far:Right Sideline 14/57 (4.1 ypc)

Right Side 20/64 (3.2 ypc)

Middle 57/278 (4.9 ypc)

Left Side 14/68 (4.9 ypc)

Left Sideline 14/56 (4.0 ypc)

Here are his splits from last year:

Right Sideline 22/70 (3.2 ypc)

Right Side 51/199 (3.9 ypc)

Middle 36/201 (5.6 ypc)

Left Side 21/177 (8.4 ypc)

Left Sideline 14/70 (5.0 ypc)

no offense, but you missed the most important part of the paragraph. DeAngelo is able to run up the middle because Stewart does it so effectively. IF DeAngelo was alone, he wouldnt have half of his success. They compliment eachother well, but if there is one guy between the two that is a workhorse and an everydown back, its Stewart. The crazy thing about Stewart is that he can get outside too. Some people see a couple of good games by DeAngelo and all fo a sudden he is the guy to own. Let's bump this later in the year, next year, or whenever....fantasy footballers are so finicky and lose faith so fast.

I'm genuinely trying to understand your reasoning. Are you saying the reason DWill is able to run up the middle is because JStew is running it up the middle? And if this really is your reasoning - this would be the 1st time I've ever seen the argument used that a RB who's getting 12 attempts per game is wearing down the D for the back who's getting more attempts per game. And for the record, I love Jonathan Stewart. I just don't see why the need in RBBC's, to make one guy the engine that's driving it's success and another guy the RB that's living off of the other's success. Maybe <gasp> it's possible they're making each other better!

 

[Tau837]

One more thing. Some will tend to dismiss the differences in ypc based on Stewart getting the short yardage and GL work.Stewart has 13 carries for 41 yards in situations with 0-2 yards to go (1st through 4th downs). Remove those carries, and with 3+ yards to go, he has 83/321 rushing... 3.87 ypc. Williams only has 2 carries for 6 yards in such situations, so his ypc with 3+ yards to go is 118 carries for 516 yards... 4.37 ypc. So it is clear Stewart is the short yardage back, no doubt about it. But it is also clear that Williams is better in all other situations.Inside the red zone, Stewart has 15 touches, all carries, for 55 yards, 5 TDs, and 1 fumble lost. Williams has 13 touches (12 carries, 1 reception) for 55 yards, 3 TDs, and no fumbles lost. Looks pretty even to me... so I don't really see an edge for Stewart as a red zone back. Now, if it is short yardage in the red zone, including within a few yards of the goal line, he probably is the guy.I could see this evolving to a largely situational split, with Stewart also providing a breather for Williams in addition to short yardage and mop up duties.

Here's their breakdown by down:1st down:

NAME 	POS 	YR 	RSH 	RSHYD 	YD/RSH 	FD 	RSHTD 	FANT PT1	DeAngelo Williams	rb	2008	62	256	4.13	8	0	27.302	Jonathan Stewart	rb	2008	44	180	4.09	6	3	37.20

2nd down:

NAME 	POS 	YR 	RSH 	RSHYD 	YD/RSH 	FD 	RSHTD 	FANT PT1	DeAngelo Williams	rb	2008	46	170	3.70	10	1	24.102	Jonathan Stewart	rb	2008	40	140	3.50	9	1	20.00

3rd down:

NAME 	POS 	YR 	RSH 	RSHYD 	YD/RSH 	FD 	RSHTD 	FANT PT1	DeAngelo Williams	rb	2008	13	99	7.62	5	2	38.702	Jonathan Stewart	rb	2008	10	37	3.70	4	1	9.70

4th down:

NAME 	POS 	YR 	RSH 	RSHYD 	YD/RSH 	FD 	RSHTD 	FANT PT1	Jonathan Stewart	rb	2008	1	2	2.00	1	0	0.20

This looks to me like the big difference here is 3rd down runs, where Williams averages 7.62 ypc and Stewart averages 3.7 ypc. Is this because Williams is the beneficiary of cheap yards on draws on 3rd-and-long while Stewart, as the short yardage back, has to slog it out for his 3rd down yards on 3rd-and-short? Let's find out:3rd down and 4 or less:

NAME 	POS 	YR 	RSH 	RSHYD 	YD/RSH 	FD 	RSHTD 	FANT PT1	DeAngelo Williams	rb	2008	1	15	15.00	1	1	13.902	Jonathan Stewart	rb	2008	7	19	2.71	4	1	7.90

3rd down and 5 or more:

NAME 	POS 	YR 	RSH 	RSHYD 	YD/RSH 	FD 	RSHTD 	FANT PT1	DeAngelo Williams	rb	2008	12	84	7.00	4	1	24.802	Jonathan Stewart	rb	2008	3	18	6.00	0	0	1.80

The answer? Yep, DeAngelo Williams gets the cheap 3rd down yards more often, while Stewart gets the tough assignments on 3rd down. Of note, their ypc average on 3rd down and 5 or more is very similar. This isn't a put-down of Williams who has done well with his opportunities. Rather, it explains the descrepancy between their numbers and shows that they're much more evenly matched than some might be thinking.

Good post. However, this does not show the trends by month. Consider:1st down in September:Williams 30/103/0 (3.43 ypc)Stewart 21/90/2 (4.09 ypc)1st down in October:Williams 32/153/0 (4.78 ypc)Stewart 23/90/1 (3.91 ypc)2nd down in September:Williams 21/87/0 (4.14 ypc)Stewart 18/83/1 (4.61 ypc)2nd down in October:Williams 25/83/1 (3.32 ypc)Stewart 22/57/0 (2.59 ypc)3rd down in September:Williams 4/11/0 (2.75 ypc)Stewart 6/24/1 (4.00 ypc)3rd down in October:Williams 9/88/2 (9.78 ypc)Stewart 4/13/0 (3.25 ypc)On all 3 downs in September, Stewart was at 4+ ypc and was better than Williams. On all 3 downs in October, Stewart was below 4 ypc, and Williams was better.

 

[jurb26]

Stewart backers are really making themselves look silly now.

 

[Jayrod]

Stewart backers are really making themselves look silly now.

Really?

 

[thehornet]

DeAngelo Williams is only effective because of what Stewart brings to the table. If Stewart doesnt pound the middle, defenses game plan directly for DeAngelo who is best on the outskirts and weak inside tackles. Pro defenses are too quick getting outside for DeAngelo type RB's who's best features are getting to the outside.

This is false. Here are Williams' splits from this season so far:Right Sideline 14/57 (4.1 ypc)

Right Side 20/64 (3.2 ypc)

Middle 57/278 (4.9 ypc)

Left Side 14/68 (4.9 ypc)

Left Sideline 14/56 (4.0 ypc)

Here are his splits from last year:

Right Sideline 22/70 (3.2 ypc)

Right Side 51/199 (3.9 ypc)

Middle 36/201 (5.6 ypc)

Left Side 21/177 (8.4 ypc)

Left Sideline 14/70 (5.0 ypc)

no offense, but you missed the most important part of the paragraph. DeAngelo is able to run up the middle because Stewart does it so effectively. IF DeAngelo was alone, he wouldnt have half of his success. They compliment eachother well, but if there is one guy between the two that is a workhorse and an everydown back, its Stewart. The crazy thing about Stewart is that he can get outside too. Some people see a couple of good games by DeAngelo and all fo a sudden he is the guy to own. Let's bump this later in the year, next year, or whenever....fantasy footballers are so finicky and lose faith so fast.

I'm genuinely trying to understand your reasoning. Are you saying the reason DWill is able to run up the middle is because JStew is running it up the middle? And if this really is your reasoning - this would be the 1st time I've ever seen the argument used that a RB who's getting 12 attempts per game is wearing down the D for the back who's getting more attempts per game. And for the record, I love Jonathan Stewart. I just don't see why the need in RBBC's, to make one guy the engine that's driving it's success and another guy the RB that's living off of the other's success. Maybe <gasp> it's possible they're making each other better!

All i am trying to say is that Stewart is better at keeping defenses honest. He can pund out a few extra yards and get critical first downs even when an opposing team stacks the line. DeAngelo isn't that type of back. He is dynamic and feeds off of Stewart's ability to keep a team playing small and up the middle. This enables the Panthers to call Williams number to do a varity of things - get outside short screen passes, etc. He has been successful for those reasons.Also, i do agree that the 2 make eachother better. However, Stewart doesn't NEED Williams, whereas Williams does need someone to split with. Stewart, believe it or not is fast and quick and has the ability to get outside as well. Stewart is what is known as an EVERY down back. DeAngelo will never have that label.

 

[FantasyTrader]

Okay. That's phrased better than your first response. I'll buy the fact that Stewart is better than Williams in short yardage situations. I think the Pantheres are using a good blend of both backs right now.

I don't know that I agree DeAngelo Williams needs to be blended with another back. The Panthers struggled with O-line health the last few years and last year the loss of Delhomme didn't do the running game any favors. I agree with you that Stewart will be a VERY good standalone back. But I'm not so sure Williams isn't a standalone back himself at this point the way he's running.

 

[Tau837]

However, Stewart doesn't NEED Williams, whereas Williams does need someone to split with. Stewart, believe it or not is fast and quick and has the ability to get outside as well. Stewart is what is known as an EVERY down back. DeAngelo will never have that label.

Here are the games in Williams' career when he got 15+ carries:

Rushing Receiving Week Date Att Yds Y/A Rec Yds Y/R RRTD1 7-Sep-08 18 86 4.8 1 4 4 04 28-Sep-08 16 57 3.6 2 9 4.5 05 5-Oct-08 20 123 6.2 1 25 25 37 19-Oct-08 18 66 3.7 1 4 4 18 26-Oct-08 17 108 6.4 2 15 7.5 1 Rushing Receiving Week Date Att Yds Y/A Rec Yds Y/R RRTD1 9-Sep-07 15 62 4.1 1 13 13 013 2-Dec-07 17 82 4.8 1 46 46 015 16-Dec-07 15 61 4.1 2 11 5.5 117 30-Dec-07 20 121 6.1 2 Rushing Receiving Week Date Att Yds Y/A Rec Yds Y/R RRTD11 19-Nov-06 20 114 5.7 2 24 12 012 26-Nov-06 17 63 3.7 3 23 7.7 013 4-Dec-06 17 74 4.4 7 101 14.4 116 24-Dec-06 21 82 3.9 1 5 5 0That is 231/1099 (4.76 ypc) rushing and 24/280 (11.67 ypr) receiving with 9 TDs in 13 games.For a few games at the end of 2006 and 2007 seasons, they gave him the ball, and he responded with very good performances. By no means does this conclusively show that Williams could be a feature back for 16 games, but it's a lot better evidence that he could than you have to show he couldn't.

 

[Tau837]

Okay. That's phrased better than your first response. I'll buy the fact that Stewart is better than Williams in short yardage situations. I think the Pantheres are using a good blend of both backs right now.

I don't know that I agree DeAngelo Williams needs to be blended with another back. The Panthers struggled with O-line health the last few years and last year the loss of Delhomme didn't do the running game any favors. I agree with you that Stewart will be a VERY good standalone back. But I'm not so sure Williams isn't a standalone back himself at this point the way he's running.

 

[Bayhawks]

All i am trying to say is that Stewart is better at keeping defenses honest. He can pund out a few extra yards and get critical first downs even when an opposing team stacks the line. DeAngelo isn't that type of back. He is dynamic and feeds off of Stewart's ability to keep a team playing small and up the middle. This enables the Panthers to call Williams number to do a varity of things - get outside short screen passes, etc. He has been successful for those reasons.

Also, i do agree that the 2 make eachother better. However, Stewart doesn't NEED Williams, whereas Williams does need someone to split with. Stewart, believe it or not is fast and quick and has the ability to get outside as well. Stewart is what is known as an EVERY down back. DeAngelo will never have that label.

Wait, so you're saying that you have observed something about Stewart and Williams' respective running abilities that NO NFL defensive player or Defensive Coordinator has seen? Because according to what you have bolded above, Williams has been able to be successful because defenses play small and pack the middle to stop the inside running game. If, however, they had seen what you see (with regards to the difference in Stewart and Williams' running ability) they would only need to pack the middle when Stewart in the game, since DeAngelo isn't "that type of back." Your logic doesn't make sense. If you think you have seen something a/b these 2 players' abilities, GUARANTEED that a defensive coach/player has seen it. They study the game WAY more than we do. So if you were right, the defenses would know when to stack the middle, and when to guard the edges, based on which RB is in the game. Therefore, it's reasonable to conclude that (while Stewart MAY be the better inside runner) defenses have to respect Williams up the middle b/c he is good enough there.

 

[T Bell]

One more thing. Some will tend to dismiss the differences in ypc based on Stewart getting the short yardage and GL work.Stewart has 13 carries for 41 yards in situations with 0-2 yards to go (1st through 4th downs). Remove those carries, and with 3+ yards to go, he has 83/321 rushing... 3.87 ypc. Williams only has 2 carries for 6 yards in such situations, so his ypc with 3+ yards to go is 118 carries for 516 yards... 4.37 ypc. So it is clear Stewart is the short yardage back, no doubt about it. But it is also clear that Williams is better in all other situations.Inside the red zone, Stewart has 15 touches, all carries, for 55 yards, 5 TDs, and 1 fumble lost. Williams has 13 touches (12 carries, 1 reception) for 55 yards, 3 TDs, and no fumbles lost. Looks pretty even to me... so I don't really see an edge for Stewart as a red zone back. Now, if it is short yardage in the red zone, including within a few yards of the goal line, he probably is the guy.I could see this evolving to a largely situational split, with Stewart also providing a breather for Williams in addition to short yardage and mop up duties.

Here's their breakdown by down:1st down:

NAME 	POS 	YR 	RSH 	RSHYD 	YD/RSH 	FD 	RSHTD 	FANT PT1	DeAngelo Williams	rb	2008	62	256	4.13	8	0	27.302	Jonathan Stewart	rb	2008	44	180	4.09	6	3	37.20

2nd down:

NAME 	POS 	YR 	RSH 	RSHYD 	YD/RSH 	FD 	RSHTD 	FANT PT1	DeAngelo Williams	rb	2008	46	170	3.70	10	1	24.102	Jonathan Stewart	rb	2008	40	140	3.50	9	1	20.00

3rd down:

NAME 	POS 	YR 	RSH 	RSHYD 	YD/RSH 	FD 	RSHTD 	FANT PT1	DeAngelo Williams	rb	2008	13	99	7.62	5	2	38.702	Jonathan Stewart	rb	2008	10	37	3.70	4	1	9.70

4th down:

NAME 	POS 	YR 	RSH 	RSHYD 	YD/RSH 	FD 	RSHTD 	FANT PT1	Jonathan Stewart	rb	2008	1	2	2.00	1	0	0.20

This looks to me like the big difference here is 3rd down runs, where Williams averages 7.62 ypc and Stewart averages 3.7 ypc. Is this because Williams is the beneficiary of cheap yards on draws on 3rd-and-long while Stewart, as the short yardage back, has to slog it out for his 3rd down yards on 3rd-and-short? Let's find out:3rd down and 4 or less:

NAME 	POS 	YR 	RSH 	RSHYD 	YD/RSH 	FD 	RSHTD 	FANT PT1	DeAngelo Williams	rb	2008	1	15	15.00	1	1	13.902	Jonathan Stewart	rb	2008	7	19	2.71	4	1	7.90

3rd down and 5 or more:

NAME 	POS 	YR 	RSH 	RSHYD 	YD/RSH 	FD 	RSHTD 	FANT PT1	DeAngelo Williams	rb	2008	12	84	7.00	4	1	24.802	Jonathan Stewart	rb	2008	3	18	6.00	0	0	1.80

The answer? Yep, DeAngelo Williams gets the cheap 3rd down yards more often, while Stewart gets the tough assignments on 3rd down. Of note, their ypc average on 3rd down and 5 or more is very similar. This isn't a put-down of Williams who has done well with his opportunities. Rather, it explains the descrepancy between their numbers and shows that they're much more evenly matched than some might be thinking.

Good post. However, this does not show the trends by month. Consider:1st down in September:Williams 30/103/0 (3.43 ypc)Stewart 21/90/2 (4.09 ypc)1st down in October:Williams 32/153/0 (4.78 ypc)Stewart 23/90/1 (3.91 ypc)2nd down in September:Williams 21/87/0 (4.14 ypc)Stewart 18/83/1 (4.61 ypc)2nd down in October:Williams 25/83/1 (3.32 ypc)Stewart 22/57/0 (2.59 ypc)3rd down in September:Williams 4/11/0 (2.75 ypc)Stewart 6/24/1 (4.00 ypc)3rd down in October:Williams 9/88/2 (9.78 ypc)Stewart 4/13/0 (3.25 ypc)On all 3 downs in September, Stewart was at 4+ ypc and was better than Williams. On all 3 downs in October, Stewart was below 4 ypc, and Williams was better.

Ok, I got what you're saying now. I'm curious as to everyones' thoughts about why this is. We're not far enough into the season for me to believe it's conditioning. Has this been the product of an unreported Stewart injury or something?

 

[thehornet]

All i am trying to say is that Stewart is better at keeping defenses honest. He can pund out a few extra yards and get critical first downs even when an opposing team stacks the line. DeAngelo isn't that type of back. He is dynamic and feeds off of Stewart's ability to keep a team playing small and up the middle. This enables the Panthers to call Williams number to do a varity of things - get outside short screen passes, etc. He has been successful for those reasons.

Also, i do agree that the 2 make eachother better. However, Stewart doesn't NEED Williams, whereas Williams does need someone to split with. Stewart, believe it or not is fast and quick and has the ability to get outside as well. Stewart is what is known as an EVERY down back. DeAngelo will never have that label.

Wait, so you're saying that you have observed something about Stewart and Williams' respective running abilities that NO NFL defensive player or Defensive Coordinator has seen? Because according to what you have bolded above, Williams has been able to be successful because defenses play small and pack the middle to stop the inside running game. If, however, they had seen what you see (with regards to the difference in Stewart and Williams' running ability) they would only need to pack the middle when Stewart in the game, since DeAngelo isn't "that type of back." Your logic doesn't make sense. If you think you have seen something a/b these 2 players' abilities, GUARANTEED that a defensive coach/player has seen it. They study the game WAY more than we do. So if you were right, the defenses would know when to stack the middle, and when to guard the edges, based on which RB is in the game. Therefore, it's reasonable to conclude that (while Stewart MAY be the better inside runner) defenses have to respect Williams up the middle b/c he is good enough there.

I really don't know how to make myself anymore clear. DeAngelo Williams is not an every down back. He never has been and never will be. Fox knows this, other coaches know this and so do i. If they thought they were all set with Williams then they wouldnt have drafted arguably the best RB in the draft. Williams os splitting carries with a rookie running back while he is in his 4th year in the league. He HASNT proven that he can carry the load by himself. if you cannot see this then you are blind. It isn't my point of view.the part that you bolded has nothing to do with Williams. It has everything to do with Stewart and how he creates mismatches for the Panthers offense while utilizing Williams. DeAngelo is essentially a change of pace back having a nice half season. This isn't to say he isnt talented. He had a great career at Memphis and he can be succesful in the NFL, but he has limitations. Stewart meanwhile, is held down by nothing. he is the full package.

Just because your flavor of the week has had a few games that look nice doesn;t mean it's a direct result of him coming into his own. He has had years to prove himself and year after year he splits carries. Whether it be with a washed up vet (Foster) or a rookie (Stewart).

I really cant wait until Stewart becomes a TOP5 RB in this league. I have patience.

 

[Football Girl]

http://www.heraldonline.com/247/story/916838.html

Article on Carolina RB situation

"You guys keep trying to separate them; We look at them kind of together," coach John Fox said. "It's our running back position. Both of them have played well."

I don't know who's right or wrong in the above argument, but as a long-time Panther fan I can tell you that this is a true RBBC unless one of them gets hurt. Fox loves having 2 guys to play.

 

[Tyrion]

http://www.heraldonline.com/247/story/916838.html

Article on Carolina RB situation

"You guys keep trying to separate them; We look at them kind of together," coach John Fox said. "It's our running back position. Both of them have played well."

I don't know who's right or wrong in the above argument, but as a long-time Panther fan I can tell you that this is a true RBBC unless one of them gets hurt. Fox loves having 2 guys to play.

Has it reached the point that we have long-time Panther fans now?

 

[Football Girl]

http://www.heraldonline.com/247/story/916838.html

Article on Carolina RB situation

"You guys keep trying to separate them; We look at them kind of together," coach John Fox said. "It's our running back position. Both of them have played well."

I don't know who's right or wrong in the above argument, but as a long-time Panther fan I can tell you that this is a true RBBC unless one of them gets hurt. Fox loves having 2 guys to play.

Has it reached the point that we have long-time Panther fans now?

Good point