Hoart Petterson
Footballguy
Because they'll be starting a veteran QB who knows the system?
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Carson Palmer: When do we move on for 2011? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter FavreAndAwayAnIdiot
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Hoart Petterson
Footballguy
For real? They have words for people who do this.
CalBear
Footballguy
Yeah. They call them "Bengals."
FallenHero32
Footballguy
Why not? There is no punishment you can hand out to Carson at this point. If they employer wants to play the game of spite, Carson might as well hit him back.
kinglochness
Footballguy
That's not the kind of guy Palmer is. He's been a QB in the league for years and has made the big money. He doesn't need to come back for money and certainly isn't going to comeback for a chance to win there. Brown's mindset is the reason the Bungles are a laughing stock. At least trade the guy and get something for him. I can see a analyst chair opening up for Palmer as we speak though.
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
Ocho *did* demand a trade a couple of years ago. They didn't budge. I think both parties (Brown and Palmer) are being immature about this.
Hoart Petterson
Footballguy
Spite? What spite? Palmer's making 12 million per. He didn't sign that massive contract extension with a gun to his head. If he was unsure he wanted to stay, why sign to such a long deal? He said in 2005 after signing through 2014, "hopefully this is the last place I'll end up playing. It's so rare to see a person have a 5-, 8-, 10-, 12-year career in one place. And I feel very fortunate that it looks like that's going to be my future." He seemed pretty thankful to take their millions back then. Now he's taking his ball and going home because he's "frustrated" and wants "a fresh start". Boo-hoo. Poor Carson. I honestly can't believe people would side with him or any professional athlete who pulls stuff like this.'FallenHero32 said:
Hoart Petterson
Footballguy
Analyst? I don't think he has the wherewithal for that.'kinglochness said:
CalBear
Footballguy
No wonder the Bengals never get good free agents.
Phantom Knight
Footballguy
I am a "honor your contract" guy. And rarely side with athletes who do not so. It is possible (probable) that I don't know all the details or that I am incorrect in what I think I know regarding this situation. If so, please correct me! That said.... I believe (ie, opinion) that Carson was given an impression from the Bengals of what their vision would be and of how they would try to mold a winner at the time he signed his contract and that this impacted his decision to sign. He clearly has honored the contract to this point. Meanwhile, the Bengals have done nothing to change their reputation for the better - at least nothing that the common man would be able to see from the outside.If Carson were trying to get his pay while not playing or while being a malcontent, I would side strongly with the Bengals. However, if he is legally able to retire while forfeiting his salary in the process, I have no problem with what he is doing. He held up his end of the bargain (fact). The Bengals did not hold up their end of the bargan (opinion). He has not been a malcontent. He put his effort in as he should have. My take on his actions here are that he is a man of his word, he made a deep seated personal decision, he informed the Bengals - I won't play for you again. That leaves them with two options - trade him (Carson's obvious preference) or force him to retire. Short and simple - man to man. He knew the consequences, he said his piece, he accepted whatever would happen. The Bengals are free to make their own decision. I do not think that it is right to question whichever route they decide to go in the end. The pragmatic option would be to trade him to get something for him. The line-in-the-sand approach, as costly as it might be, makes it clear that if you sign with the Bengals, you will be expected to honor that contract. My personal hope is that (and I cringe saying this), that they trade him. But should they not and should he quietly retire as he has said he would, I have nothing but respect for the man. Certainly he is a wealthy man, but not so wealthy that this year's contract is insignificant to him. To walk away from the opportunity to pocket that quietly and with his dignity intact might not be a noble act but certainly is enough to garner my respect.
QuizGuy66
Footballguy
The Bengals won't budge. They've never budged. I still think Palmer handled this terribly. He made his pronouncement at a time when the Bengals, by rule, could not do anything about it - even if they wanted to let him go. His brother, frankly, has shown much more leadership over the last few months. Boomer worked out a similar think with Brown the year before he got traded. He requested a trade and Brown said no - but drafted Klingler. The next year they then traded Boomer. Carson's actions prevented this kind of orderly transition from being possible and I think that's part of where Brown's resentment comes from, to be honest.If Brown sold the team tomorrow I'd be ecstatic but to be honest I really think Carson can pound sand.
-QG
Wasn't it Palmer that drew the line in the sand?
bengalbuck
Footballguy
Ocho did demand a trade a few years ago and the Redskins offered 2 1st round picks. One of the reasons expressed at the time for not making the trade (a terrible move in hindsight) was that it would set a bad precedent to allow him to force a trade.Well, the precedent was set and here we are with Carson still demanding a trade.
I'll say this...if Brown would have set the precedent back in 2008 that he would do what was best for the franchise and not act like a jilted teenage girl, and would have got 2 first for Chad, Carson would most likely still be a Bengal and not wanting out.
This is just digging the hole deeper and deeper.
kinglochness
Footballguy
Really? I think he's got the look and he's well spoken. Can't be worse than Emmitt Smith was.
kinglochness
Footballguy
I get the stand by your word thing. At some point, don't you have to cut bait though. Kind of seems like the empty can rattles the most. Guys like TO or Randy Moss can force their way out of a place because they don't mind showing up and being a problem. A guy like Palmer can suck it up or retire. Doesn't really seem right to me.
Sudoku_in_the_Bathtub
Footballguy
At the end of the day, HE signed a contract. If he doesn't want to live up to it, he can walk away.
CalBear
Footballguy
That sounds like exactly what he's planning to do. The point is, it would make more sense from the Bengals' perspective to get something for him than to get nothing for him. Unless Mike Brown wants to play stupid dominance games to prove he's the alpha male.
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Sudoku_in_the_Bathtub
Footballguy
Mike Brown put it well:
No player is bigger than an organization. A refreshing stand here.
CalBear
Footballguy
If you start with the known fact that Mike Brown is a cheapskate loser who has no interest in putting a good product on the field, his position makes sense. Because there's nothing about his position that is going to help the Bengals, now or in the future. Is trotting out Jordan Palmer "taking a stand"? No, it's taking a knee.
Sudoku_in_the_Bathtub
Footballguy
Same guy that handed Palmer 6 years 118 million?
Palmer quit on his teammates and organization. He is now considered retired by the organization and wish him well.
Palmer quit on his teammates and organization. He is now considered retired by the organization and wish him well.
whoknew
Footballguy
I can't see how this is refreshing. If I were a Bengal fan, I'd be furious. Mike Brown is letting his ego get in the way of a good business decision.
cheese
Footballguy
As a Bengals fan, I'm splitting hairs as to which guy I hate more between Palmer and Brown so if one of them can get screwed without hurting the team I'm cool with that. I'm not convinced that this is such a clear "bad business decision". First of all, we don't (or at least I don't) really know yet how this helps or hurts them with the salary cap. Second, there is at least some value in standing your ground about demanding trades (who DOESN'T want out of Cincy right now?). Third, there is at least a 1% chance Palmer comes back to Cincy now which would have been impossible any other way.Honestly, I don't really care. Its just something to talk about. Of the reasons to be furious as a Bengals fan, this ranks about 200th. A 2012 2nd round pick for Palmer isn't going to make or break this franchise.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Did Mike Brown honor his commitment to Laveraneous Coles?I understand that there are some difference between the owners being allowed contracually to void the contract and a player that wants his release from that contract - but Brown comes across as talking out of both sides of his mouth when he talks about "contract and commitment". If the Bengals do release Ochocinco then it further makes this point.Bottom line is that he isn't really "rewarding" Palmer by trading him away (unless even Mike Brown considers getting out of Cincinnati as a reward), he'd only beusing his assets in a way that makes the most sense for the good of his organization at this point.As far as setting a precedent - most players would not be able to carry through on their threat to retire, since most players don't make and/or save the money that Palmer has.
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I don't envy you, but it is good to see you stick with your team. I also see both sides and while Palmer did sign and ask to leave, there certainly could have been spoken word about team situations (coaching, etc) that was a handshake when the deal was made (i.e. if we are under .500 at so and so point, I want to be traded). As a headhunter, I feel this happens way too much in when my candidates meet with hiring managers (i.e. if a position opens in management, I want to be strongly considered) and it rarely works out. With that said, Mike Brown over the past few years has been more willing to spend than in the past. I am not going to say he spends in the right way, just that he was willing to take on guys like Pacman, Roy Williams, Tank Williams, TO...that is a cast of characters, but certainly more expensive than street UDFAs filling those roles.
Yes, he did.The players give up their rights for future years in exchange for guaranteed money up front, which Brown paid to Coles and Ochocinco. As for Palmer, he has been paid 68 million over the last 5 years (of his 118 mil). For comparison, Brady signed a 78 million, 5 year deal just last year. Palmer exchanged his rights to the next 4 years for a chunk of guaranteed money during the first 5 years.
Clifford
Footballguy
He turned down 2 1sts from the Skins (guaranteed high picks) for a malcontent prima donna WR? He really has no business running a football team.ya the rumor was that the skins offered a first plus third that could escalate. i think ppl are making too much of the metagame here. its not going to incite players to demand trades and its not going to hinder the bengals ability to sign players as much as yall think. the issue is how dumb brown is to prefer nothing over something.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
You're implying that there are no benefits to letting Palmer walk away. On the contrary, I can think of several potential benefits -- most importantly, it will prevent other Bengals players from demanding trades.
CalBear
Footballguy
Playing hardball with Ochocinco didn't keep Palmer from demanding a trade, did it? At best, all you'll do is keep people from wanting to play for the Bengals. As if they needed any encouragement.
Mike Brown is making the right business decision.After I don't know how many sub par seasons, the NFL consensus is that Palmer is either washed up, or in decline.
Please Brown haters, tell me what you think he would fetch on the open market? When you do that , be sure to factor in time and place, as they are a factor. Here are the facts for those too feeble-minded to understand basic supply and demand:
[*]Before free agengy started, there were as many as 10 O.K starting or former starting veteran qbs on the market.
[*]There are a plethora of rookie and 2nd year qbs that are currently on rosters, with opportunities to start.
[*]In looking at each team there are 20 of 32 teams that are effectivley set with who they want as the starter this year.
Effectively, Palmer picked a pretty bad time to throw his hissy fit. Factor in that he is coming off a 4 - 12 season, over the last two years his qb rating is 82, which is ok but not elite by any stretch of the imagination, and that he is throwing his team under the bus, which actually is a sign of BAD leadership, something all teams are scrambling to get...right.
So what would they get in a trade? A third or a fourth? I highly doubt it. Probably exactly what the Redskins will get for McNabb, two sixth round picks. Are two sixth round picks worth letting a player dictate how to run an organization? NO!!!!!!!!!
In essense, if Palmer really wants to play, he is acting really stupid. Anyone who thinks the Bengals are in the wrong here is a little errant in their thinking.
Organizational loyalty is not a two way street in the NFL. It never has been. Players give that up when they agree to get paid millions of dollars to play a game.
habsfan
Footballguy
I think the bottom line is that in terms of value to the Bengals, the order is:1. Carson playing2. Carson retiring (saving the team money)3. Carson's trade valueIf option 3 were seen as anywhere near the first two, this wouldn't likely be happening.
I look at this a lot like raising kids.....sometimes as parents we make decisions and draw lines in the sand that really suck sometimes.....it's really hard to do....and it makes it difficult for awhile.....but the thing is, we have to....for the long run....for down the road so we don't keep dealing with the same issues over and over again down the road....
don't kid yourself....if Brown caves a precedent will be set....
players threatening to retire in order to try and force a trade out of town absolutely cannot be something that becomes common place in this league...
been sitting here trying to think of another example of this exact situation where this worked.....but can't think of anything....the BMarsh example doesn't count....where a player actually retired when his bluff was called, or where an owner actually traded that player when the said they were going to retire otherwise....
edit: oh and sorry it is not a two way street...it is a double standard when it comes to what owners can do and what players can do.....and what is fair....it just is....deal with it or find another job...
don't kid yourself....if Brown caves a precedent will be set....
players threatening to retire in order to try and force a trade out of town absolutely cannot be something that becomes common place in this league...
been sitting here trying to think of another example of this exact situation where this worked.....but can't think of anything....the BMarsh example doesn't count....where a player actually retired when his bluff was called, or where an owner actually traded that player when the said they were going to retire otherwise....
edit: oh and sorry it is not a two way street...it is a double standard when it comes to what owners can do and what players can do.....and what is fair....it just is....deal with it or find another job...
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Joe Summer
Footballguy
I would switch 1 & 2. Palmer has much more value to the team if he's retired. This team is in rebuilding mode and Palmer is no longer the elite-level QB that he was a few years ago. The Bengals would be much better off by putting that $50 million toward other players.
QuizGuy66
Footballguy
Not a For the billionth time (and I notice it's now up to 2 1sts rather than a 1st and 3rd - I swear it'll be 9 1st rounders when it's mentioned 5 years from now), the reason they didn't move Ocho was as much because of the accelerated cap hit they would have taken at the time which would've been massive - they don't like to carry dead cap money.-QG
QuizGuy66
Footballguy
This is spot on. Again, if Carson plays in the NFL again it'll be in 2012 at the earliest.-QG
Joe Summer
Footballguy
I think Palmer will report at the end of camp this year. Even multimillionaires can't pass up $11.5 million in free money.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
in '99, the bengals passed on ditka's offer of his entire draft (including 1.12, but missing a 2nd) PLUS a 2000 1st (turned into second overall) & 3rd, in order to select ricky williams (redskin's casserly later took him up on it)... they used the pick on akili smith (in fairness, CLE had same offer and used it on couch first overall)... the next three picks after smith (other than williams) were edgerrin james, torry holt and champ bailey...
the bengals do seem like a team that is not particularly creative in the draft, fairly stodgy and set in their ways, and tend to not move up or down a lot...
the bengals do seem like a team that is not particularly creative in the draft, fairly stodgy and set in their ways, and tend to not move up or down a lot...
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Clifford
Footballguy
He's still in the top half of QBs in the league. Wait until the fans get a full dose of Dalton. They'll be wishing they had Palmer.
Well, when Ocho admitted to what he had learned about holding out, he did start with "Unless you are the QB, . . ."
How bad can it be? If they finish worse than they did with Palmer, they end up drafting Luck next year.
QuizGuy66
Footballguy
See this is a fair criticism (though it's apples and oranges to the Ocho hold-out drama). This is the one that really haunts me as a Bengals fan.-QG
Very few players have accumulated enough money to simply retire on a whim. Most spend a lot while they are in the league, and it's simply not an option to quit when they have productive years left. I doubt this would be a major issue, as Palmer is an exception in that he has plenty of cash stashed away. A couple of million isn't going to cut it. Still, I don't mind Palmer getting stuck here. The guy is a total hypocrite, bagging on Ocho when he held out demanding a trade, then doing essentially the same thing. He deserves whatever he gets.
