"Catching Hell" ESPN Bartman Documentary (1 Viewer)

[Da Guru]

Watched this tonight. I felt like I was watching the 21st century version of the JFK assassination. Crazy story and make Cubs fans look really bad, but they do a good job of that by themselves.

Agree. Why not blame the players? They had lots of chances afterwards to make plays.

That's what people with loser mentalities do. They create scapegoats.

The booted ground ball by Gonzo would have ended the inning. Bartman did not cost the Cubs the game/ The Cubs were too weak mentally..always have been.

 

[Mello]

Watched this tonight. I felt like I was watching the 21st century version of the JFK assassination. Crazy story and make Cubs fans look really bad, but they do a good job of that by themselves.

Agree. Why not blame the players? They had lots of chances afterwards to make plays.

That's what people with loser mentalities do. They create scapegoats.

The booted ground ball by Gonzo would have ended the inning. Bartman did not cost the Cubs the game/ The Cubs were too weak mentally..always have been.

Gonzo doesn't boot the ground ball if Alou catches the 2nd out.

 

[McJose]

Watched this tonight. I felt like I was watching the 21st century version of the JFK assassination. Crazy story and make Cubs fans look really bad, but they do a good job of that by themselves.

Agree. Why not blame the players? They had lots of chances afterwards to make plays.

That's what people with loser mentalities do. They create scapegoats.

The booted ground ball by Gonzo would have ended the inning. Bartman did not cost the Cubs the game/ The Cubs were too weak mentally..always have been.

Gonzo doesn't boot the ground ball if Alou catches the 2nd out.

If Buckner hadn't dropped that pop-fly and killed a bus-load of nuns we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[Limp Ditka]

Watched this tonight. I felt like I was watching the 21st century version of the JFK assassination. Crazy story and make Cubs fans look really bad, but they do a good job of that by themselves.

Agree. Why not blame the players? They had lots of chances afterwards to make plays.

That's what people with loser mentalities do. They create scapegoats.

The booted ground ball by Gonzo would have ended the inning. Bartman did not cost the Cubs the game/ The Cubs were too weak mentally..always have been.

Gonzo doesn't boot the ground ball if Alou catches the 2nd out.

And if the wind wasn't blowing in from the Northwest, the ball never gets within Alou's reach.Let's blame the wind.

 

[bshell27]

FTR I am a big Cubs fan. The curse is a creation of the fans, a self-fulfilling prophecy more than a curse is what I would call it.

As far as the context of 100+ years without a championship I can see the point that others who have not experienced that in their lifetime would have similar feelings, but the love/hate relationship with the cubs is passed on through more generations, and for those who have had it passed on to them, it is much more significant, IMO.

Even though we were swept, I can get over 2007-08. I will never get over 2003.

 

[bshell27]

Not quite sure why they had the background of the Buckner game. The guy who did the doc. was from Boston so that might be why. I liked the sloppy transition between the two, as if they were connected, the Cubs batting glove was a nice touch.

 

[SmoovySmoov]

Even though we were swept, I can get over 2007-08. I will never get over 2003.

 

[Walton Goggins]

It was a decent and way too long show. I feel bad for Bartman, but don't blame the fans and media for the reaction. Mistakes come with consequences. He's not a scapegoat. The momentum completely changed on that play and there's a good chance the Cubs win the series if Alou catches that. Every mistake after it was connected to that one play.

I disagree, the Cubs are losers and it's telling that just because one out wasn't potentially made with a lead in the game, with a lead in the series and even another game at home, I would say it's a good chance regardless if that out was made or not the Cubs would have lost the series. They were wound so tight and have a loser mentality that all it took was something to go wrong then it was done. Prior through Gonzo folded like a cheap suit. Did you see many freaking runs were scored in the 8th by the Marlins? Shows Marlins were clearly the better team.Wonder why they didn't talk about Yankee fans being upset that the Marlins played them in the WS vs. Cubs. Would have been another WS championship if that had happened. The Cubs would have been mental midgets in a WS vs the Yanks.

Finally, there are teams/cities out there that have gone through long losing streaks or never have won anything so to Cub fans.

Name one other team that has gone 100 years without winning it all......just one.

Unless you have lived 100 years that's irrelevant. People I know who are around my age or younger could be Yankee fans but the ones that count in your mind are the ones you remember.If you say BS then fine at least as a Cub fan you've won a WS, right? How about the teams that's never won one?

I say BS then.

Then you've won a WS so stop the crying. Lots of other people out there would love to have one WS from their team.

Most people don't celebrate wins from before their parents were born.Pretty sure I haven't cried over this team since this

Cry for a loss while playing on the road with another game left?

 

[wadegarrett]

Watched this tonight. I felt like I was watching the 21st century version of the JFK assassination. Crazy story and make Cubs fans look really bad, but they do a good job of that by themselves.

Agree. Why not blame the players? They had lots of chances afterwards to make plays.

That's what people with loser mentalities do. They create scapegoats.

The booted ground ball by Gonzo would have ended the inning. Bartman did not cost the Cubs the game/ The Cubs were too weak mentally..always have been.

Gonzo doesn't boot the ground ball if Alou catches the 2nd out.

Is this all Cubs fans' argument?

 

[bshell27]

It was a decent and way too long show. I feel bad for Bartman, but don't blame the fans and media for the reaction. Mistakes come with consequences. He's not a scapegoat. The momentum completely changed on that play and there's a good chance the Cubs win the series if Alou catches that. Every mistake after it was connected to that one play.

I disagree, the Cubs are losers and it's telling that just because one out wasn't potentially made with a lead in the game, with a lead in the series and even another game at home, I would say it's a good chance regardless if that out was made or not the Cubs would have lost the series. They were wound so tight and have a loser mentality that all it took was something to go wrong then it was done. Prior through Gonzo folded like a cheap suit. Did you see many freaking runs were scored in the 8th by the Marlins? Shows Marlins were clearly the better team.Wonder why they didn't talk about Yankee fans being upset that the Marlins played them in the WS vs. Cubs. Would have been another WS championship if that had happened. The Cubs would have been mental midgets in a WS vs the Yanks.

Finally, there are teams/cities out there that have gone through long losing streaks or never have won anything so to Cub fans.

Name one other team that has gone 100 years without winning it all......just one.

Unless you have lived 100 years that's irrelevant. People I know who are around my age or younger could be Yankee fans but the ones that count in your mind are the ones you remember.If you say BS then fine at least as a Cub fan you've won a WS, right? How about the teams that's never won one?

I say BS then.

Then you've won a WS so stop the crying. Lots of other people out there would love to have one WS from their team.

Most people don't celebrate wins from before their parents were born.Pretty sure I haven't cried over this team since this

Cry for a loss while playing on the road with another game left?

You can't be this clueless as to why this would hurt to watch can you? Having another game is irrelevant, being that close and losing on that night... Wait, I am going to have a pointless argument with my wife instead of this, I have a better chance of getting through.

 

[Mello]

Watched this tonight. I felt like I was watching the 21st century version of the JFK assassination. Crazy story and make Cubs fans look really bad, but they do a good job of that by themselves.

Agree. Why not blame the players? They had lots of chances afterwards to make plays.

That's what people with loser mentalities do. They create scapegoats.

The booted ground ball by Gonzo would have ended the inning. Bartman did not cost the Cubs the game/ The Cubs were too weak mentally..always have been.

Gonzo doesn't boot the ground ball if Alou catches the 2nd out.

Is this all Cubs fans' argument?

My point was, Bartman's actions are inseparable from the rest of the events. It's very possible things play out completely differently if he doesn't interfere. This whole idea that Bartman's just a scapegoat and Cubs' fans are stupid for giving him a hard time is just people feeling sorry for the guy. He had a negative impact at a critical time for his team. Fans are entitled to be upset. I don't blame them for the ####### chants or throwing beers. The death threats and stuff after the game went too far.

 

[TobiasFunke]

My point was, Bartman's actions are inseparable from the rest of the events. It's very possible things play out completely differently if he doesn't interfere. This whole idea that Bartman's just a scapegoat and Cubs' fans are stupid for giving him a hard time is just people feeling sorry for the guy. He had a negative impact at a critical time for his team. Fans are entitled to be upset. I don't blame them for the ####### chants or throwing beers. The death threats and stuff after the game went too far.

That's fine, but by that logic a TON of things are also inseparable from the rest of the events. The bullpen for not shutting down the Marlins in the 9th inning of Game 1 and therefore possibly ending the series in a sweep. The manager and GM for not providing a better bullpen or using it more effectively in that game. The entire Cubs lineup mustering only 2 hits off Beckett in support of a quality outing by Zambrano in Game 5. Dusty Baker for sending Prior out there for the eighth inning as a young pitcher with a ton of innings behind him that season. Dusty Baker for letting Prior pitch that many innings over the course of the season in the first place. Prior for sucking in that inning, and possibly for putting his pride over the team's best interests by not telling his manager he was tiring. And so on and so on. Do these people and events get as much blame as Bartman? After all, by your logic it's all inseparable.

 

[comfortably numb]

Something I found interesting...

One of the guys interviewed in the doc, the sportswriter, last name Drehr (I think), who was asked to write the Bartman story for ESPN a few years ago. I remember reading that article, and in it, he mentions talking to a psychologist about the whole incident. The psychologist claimed that he could get Bartman to talk openly about it, but he never got the opportunity. But he told the sprotswriter that for the most part, people don't really care about it, except for Cubs fans, and I guess to a lesser extent, sports fans. But he told the writer to ask 100 people if they know who Steve Bartman is and report his findings. The writer went to some festival in Chicago at the time, and asked 100 random people. I think there were only like 3 people who knew of Bartman. And this was in Chicago.

A tad misleading...You forgot to mention the part where it was a Amish festival.

 

[Wrigley]

Cry for a loss while playing on the road with another game left?

I was 13, and I just knew it was over......I remember thinking: DON'T PITCH TO GARVEYI for one avoided the documentary, as I didn't want to relive the event.yet, I'm still here taking the bait in this thread.

 

[comfortably numb]

Cry for a loss while playing on the road with another game left?

I was 13, and I just knew it was over......I remember thinking: DON'T PITCH TO GARVEYI for one avoided the documentary, as I didn't want to relive the event.yet, I'm still here taking the bait in this thread.

and your SIL stole all your booze, so you can't even drown all your sorrows!!

 

[Wrigley]

Cry for a loss while playing on the road with another game left?

I was 13, and I just knew it was over......I remember thinking: DON'T PITCH TO GARVEYI for one avoided the documentary, as I didn't want to relive the event.

yet, I'm still here taking the bait in this thread.

and your SIL stole all your booze, so you can't even drown all your sorrows!!

If I drank every time the Cubs lost, I'd be living at my SIL house camper.

 

[roadkill1292]

I would like to meet Bartman, shake his hand and tell him "Hang in there. Don't let the #######s get you down."

 

[Mello]

My point was, Bartman's actions are inseparable from the rest of the events. It's very possible things play out completely differently if he doesn't interfere. This whole idea that Bartman's just a scapegoat and Cubs' fans are stupid for giving him a hard time is just people feeling sorry for the guy. He had a negative impact at a critical time for his team. Fans are entitled to be upset. I don't blame them for the ####### chants or throwing beers. The death threats and stuff after the game went too far.

That's fine, but by that logic a TON of things are also inseparable from the rest of the events. The bullpen for not shutting down the Marlins in the 9th inning of Game 1 and therefore possibly ending the series in a sweep. The manager and GM for not providing a better bullpen or using it more effectively in that game. The entire Cubs lineup mustering only 2 hits off Beckett in support of a quality outing by Zambrano in Game 5. Dusty Baker for sending Prior out there for the eighth inning as a young pitcher with a ton of innings behind him that season. Dusty Baker for letting Prior pitch that many innings over the course of the season in the first place. Prior for sucking in that inning, and possibly for putting his pride over the team's best interests by not telling his manager he was tiring. And so on and so on. Do these people and events get as much blame as Bartman? After all, by your logic it's all inseparable.

No, because most of those didn't happen in that game and didn't have the same deflating effect in the stadium. The connections are not as easy to make. That 8th inning is when the collapse began and it started with Bartman's mistake. Maybe I'm alone, but when I saw that play, I knew the bottom was going to fall out. It changed the momentum. Yes, the team collapsed, but that's not going to get as much blame as the catalyst. While the comparison to Buckner was overdone, it's a decent comparison. The Red Sox had many opportunities to win that series afterwards. Buckner's error was the catalyst for their collapse though.

 

[Walton Goggins]

It was a decent and way too long show. I feel bad for Bartman, but don't blame the fans and media for the reaction. Mistakes come with consequences. He's not a scapegoat. The momentum completely changed on that play and there's a good chance the Cubs win the series if Alou catches that. Every mistake after it was connected to that one play.

I disagree, the Cubs are losers and it's telling that just because one out wasn't potentially made with a lead in the game, with a lead in the series and even another game at home, I would say it's a good chance regardless if that out was made or not the Cubs would have lost the series. They were wound so tight and have a loser mentality that all it took was something to go wrong then it was done. Prior through Gonzo folded like a cheap suit. Did you see many freaking runs were scored in the 8th by the Marlins? Shows Marlins were clearly the better team.Wonder why they didn't talk about Yankee fans being upset that the Marlins played them in the WS vs. Cubs. Would have been another WS championship if that had happened. The Cubs would have been mental midgets in a WS vs the Yanks.

Finally, there are teams/cities out there that have gone through long losing streaks or never have won anything so to Cub fans.

Name one other team that has gone 100 years without winning it all......just one.

Unless you have lived 100 years that's irrelevant. People I know who are around my age or younger could be Yankee fans but the ones that count in your mind are the ones you remember.If you say BS then fine at least as a Cub fan you've won a WS, right? How about the teams that's never won one?

I say BS then.

Then you've won a WS so stop the crying. Lots of other people out there would love to have one WS from their team.

Most people don't celebrate wins from before their parents were born.Pretty sure I haven't cried over this team since this

Cry for a loss while playing on the road with another game left?

You can't be this clueless as to why this would hurt to watch can you? Having another game is irrelevant, being that close and losing on that night... Wait, I am going to have a pointless argument with my wife instead of this, I have a better chance of getting through.

It wasn't close.

You were on the road.

It was tied.

It was the ninth inning.

It wasn't the final game of the series.

So no, to cry doesn't make sense unless you assume going into a Game 4 on the road with it tied in the 9th you believe your chances are great that you'll escape it and win and shocked if you thought you would lose. That's not logical.

 

[Walton Goggins]

Cry for a loss while playing on the road with another game left?

I was 13, and I just knew it was over......I remember thinking: DON'T PITCH TO GARVEYI for one avoided the documentary, as I didn't want to relive the event.yet, I'm still here taking the bait in this thread.

Cubs fans are really no different than a lot of other fans out there in experiencing big defeats. What's different is that Cub fans seem to have taken over the Red Sox fans attitude where they feel like it only happens to them. It doesn't and you guys aren't unique.

 

[Walton Goggins]

My point was, Bartman's actions are inseparable from the rest of the events. It's very possible things play out completely differently if he doesn't interfere. This whole idea that Bartman's just a scapegoat and Cubs' fans are stupid for giving him a hard time is just people feeling sorry for the guy. He had a negative impact at a critical time for his team. Fans are entitled to be upset. I don't blame them for the ####### chants or throwing beers. The death threats and stuff after the game went too far.

That's fine, but by that logic a TON of things are also inseparable from the rest of the events. The bullpen for not shutting down the Marlins in the 9th inning of Game 1 and therefore possibly ending the series in a sweep. The manager and GM for not providing a better bullpen or using it more effectively in that game. The entire Cubs lineup mustering only 2 hits off Beckett in support of a quality outing by Zambrano in Game 5. Dusty Baker for sending Prior out there for the eighth inning as a young pitcher with a ton of innings behind him that season. Dusty Baker for letting Prior pitch that many innings over the course of the season in the first place. Prior for sucking in that inning, and possibly for putting his pride over the team's best interests by not telling his manager he was tiring. And so on and so on. Do these people and events get as much blame as Bartman? After all, by your logic it's all inseparable.

No, because most of those didn't happen in that game and didn't have the same deflating effect in the stadium. The connections are not as easy to make. That 8th inning is when the collapse began and it started with Bartman's mistake. Maybe I'm alone, but when I saw that play, I knew the bottom was going to fall out. It changed the momentum. Yes, the team collapsed, but that's not going to get as much blame as the catalyst. While the comparison to Buckner was overdone, it's a decent comparison. The Red Sox had many opportunities to win that series afterwards. Buckner's error was the catalyst for their collapse though.

These two situations weren't the deciding factor in why they didn't win the series unless you think by leading before Game 7 you should automatically win the series.

 

[TobiasFunke]

My point was, Bartman's actions are inseparable from the rest of the events. It's very possible things play out completely differently if he doesn't interfere. This whole idea that Bartman's just a scapegoat and Cubs' fans are stupid for giving him a hard time is just people feeling sorry for the guy. He had a negative impact at a critical time for his team. Fans are entitled to be upset. I don't blame them for the ####### chants or throwing beers. The death threats and stuff after the game went too far.

That's fine, but by that logic a TON of things are also inseparable from the rest of the events. The bullpen for not shutting down the Marlins in the 9th inning of Game 1 and therefore possibly ending the series in a sweep. The manager and GM for not providing a better bullpen or using it more effectively in that game. The entire Cubs lineup mustering only 2 hits off Beckett in support of a quality outing by Zambrano in Game 5. Dusty Baker for sending Prior out there for the eighth inning as a young pitcher with a ton of innings behind him that season. Dusty Baker for letting Prior pitch that many innings over the course of the season in the first place. Prior for sucking in that inning, and possibly for putting his pride over the team's best interests by not telling his manager he was tiring. And so on and so on. Do these people and events get as much blame as Bartman? After all, by your logic it's all inseparable.

No, because most of those didn't happen in that game and didn't have the same deflating effect in the stadium. The connections are not as easy to make. That 8th inning is when the collapse began and it started with Bartman's mistake. Maybe I'm alone, but when I saw that play, I knew the bottom was going to fall out. It changed the momentum. Yes, the team collapsed, but that's not going to get as much blame as the catalyst. While the comparison to Buckner was overdone, it's a decent comparison. The Red Sox had many opportunities to win that series afterwards. Buckner's error was the catalyst for their collapse though.

Well now I see the disagreement. The bolded stuff is pure nonsense. It's been proven time and time again. If you want me to show you examples of teams winning despite negative crowd energy or losing despite positive energy I could do it until the cows come home. You're buying into a narrative instead of reality.ETA: If you truly believe in momentum and the vibe in the stadium changing the outcome of a game or a series, take a few minutes to look game by game at the 2008 ALCS and explain to me how the Rays won that series.

 

[AmosMoses]

It was a decent and way too long show. I feel bad for Bartman, but don't blame the fans and media for the reaction. Mistakes come with consequences. He's not a scapegoat. The momentum completely changed on that play and there's a good chance the Cubs win the series if Alou catches that. Every mistake after it was connected to that one play.

How is he not a scapegoat again? The only reason that play is recalled is because the fans and the team let it get into their head. That's their fault, that's the fault of a weak willed, choking team, not Bartman's.

He's only a scapegoat if you believe that his actions had nothing to do with the change in momentum of that game. That things would have played out the same without his mistake. Obviously there's no way to know, but I don't think so. I'm not saying the players were blameless.

Let's not get existential about some events contributing a minor cause to other events. Alou throwing a fit let that foul ball affect him, probably affecting the rest of the team. That doesn't happen to a player and a team with a stronger will to win.

 

[Mello]

My point was, Bartman's actions are inseparable from the rest of the events. It's very possible things play out completely differently if he doesn't interfere. This whole idea that Bartman's just a scapegoat and Cubs' fans are stupid for giving him a hard time is just people feeling sorry for the guy. He had a negative impact at a critical time for his team. Fans are entitled to be upset. I don't blame them for the ####### chants or throwing beers. The death threats and stuff after the game went too far.

That's fine, but by that logic a TON of things are also inseparable from the rest of the events. The bullpen for not shutting down the Marlins in the 9th inning of Game 1 and therefore possibly ending the series in a sweep. The manager and GM for not providing a better bullpen or using it more effectively in that game. The entire Cubs lineup mustering only 2 hits off Beckett in support of a quality outing by Zambrano in Game 5. Dusty Baker for sending Prior out there for the eighth inning as a young pitcher with a ton of innings behind him that season. Dusty Baker for letting Prior pitch that many innings over the course of the season in the first place. Prior for sucking in that inning, and possibly for putting his pride over the team's best interests by not telling his manager he was tiring. And so on and so on. Do these people and events get as much blame as Bartman? After all, by your logic it's all inseparable.

No, because most of those didn't happen in that game and didn't have the same deflating effect in the stadium. The connections are not as easy to make. That 8th inning is when the collapse began and it started with Bartman's mistake. Maybe I'm alone, but when I saw that play, I knew the bottom was going to fall out. It changed the momentum. Yes, the team collapsed, but that's not going to get as much blame as the catalyst. While the comparison to Buckner was overdone, it's a decent comparison. The Red Sox had many opportunities to win that series afterwards. Buckner's error was the catalyst for their collapse though.

Well now I see the disagreement. The bolded stuff is pure nonsense. It's been proven time and time again. If you want me to show you examples of teams winning despite negative crowd energy or losing despite positive energy I could do it until the cows come home. You're buying into a narrative instead of reality.ETA: If you truly believe in momentum and the vibe in the stadium changing the outcome of a game or a series, take a few minutes to look game by game at the 2008 ALCS and explain to me how the Rays won that series.

I do truly believe in it and think it is stronger with certain fanbases, but don't remember enough of the 2008 ALCS to really comment. The argument over if momentum exists is a good one that really can't be proven one way or the other. Plus it leads to further cliches about good teams overcoming it and such. I'll leave it that and concede you have a good point.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I do truly believe in it and think it is stronger with certain fanbases, but don't remember enough of the 2008 ALCS to really comment. The argument over if momentum exists is a good one that really can't be proven one way or the other. Plus it leads to further cliches about good teams overcoming it and such. I'll leave it that and concede you have a good point.

That's fine. You and I just have fundamentally different approaches to baseball I guess.FYI, in the 2008 ALCS the Red Sox- at the time the defending Series champions and winners of two of the last four- trailed the Rays three games to one entering Game 5. The Rays took a 7-0 lead into the 7th inning stretch of that game at Fenway, i.e. they were nine outs away from winning the series so long as they didn't blow a 7-0 lead. Which is exactly what they did. They came home with a 3-2 lead and James Shields on the mound, scored first in Game 6 ... and lost again. And then the Red Sox had the better starter in Game 7 (Lester vs. Garza) and scored first, and the building was dead. It was a textbook choke job/momentum shift by the new guys to the guys with all the playoff experience and momentum recent postseason "magic." Except the Rays went on to win the game and the series.

 

[17seconds]

Not quite sure why they had the background of the Buckner game. The guy who did the doc. was from Boston so that might be why. I liked the sloppy transition between the two, as if they were connected, the Cubs batting glove was a nice touch.

They could have positioned the doc differently, still called it "Catching Hell", but just promoted it as the story of both Buckner and Bartman.

 

[Tom Servo]

Limpy and Servo - You're right. I didn't know the last time the Indians won. It seemed to me they won in the 90's, but I couldn't have said for certain (obviously). My apologies.

The Indians went to the WS in 95 and 97. The fact that Joe Table got scared in Game 7 of the 97 WS keeps this stinky flame burning.Apology accepted GB.

 

[Sarnoff]

Something I found interesting...

One of the guys interviewed in the doc, the sportswriter, last name Drehr (I think), who was asked to write the Bartman story for ESPN a few years ago. I remember reading that article, and in it, he mentions talking to a psychologist about the whole incident. The psychologist claimed that he could get Bartman to talk openly about it, but he never got the opportunity. But he told the sprotswriter that for the most part, people don't really care about it, except for Cubs fans, and I guess to a lesser extent, sports fans. But he told the writer to ask 100 people if they know who Steve Bartman is and report his findings. The writer went to some festival in Chicago at the time, and asked 100 random people. I think there were only like 3 people who knew of Bartman. And this was in Chicago.

Here's the article.

I laugh again, hang up the phone and head to Blues Fest, a melting pot of Chicago's multicultural diversity in Grant Park. On this humid, overcast Sunday, the park is filled with more than 100,000 people. I talk to everyone from homeless men begging for change to the economically elite sipping on wine and nibbling on cheese. I talk to police officers, preachers, garbage men, yuppies, even four Indian women sitting on a park bench bobbing their heads to the blues.

I ask every single one of them, 100 people total: "Does the name Steve Bartman mean anything to you?"

Twenty-seven say yes. Seventy-three say no. One "no" is a guy wailing on a harmonica in a tattered Cubs hat. When I clue him in that Bartman has something to do with the Cubs, he still can't guess.

"I just wear the hat," he says.

 

[Sarnoff]

What was up with the crappy animated billy goat in the first half-hour or so? WTF was that anyway?

 

[SlaX]

Something I found interesting...

One of the guys interviewed in the doc, the sportswriter, last name Drehr (I think), who was asked to write the Bartman story for ESPN a few years ago. I remember reading that article, and in it, he mentions talking to a psychologist about the whole incident. The psychologist claimed that he could get Bartman to talk openly about it, but he never got the opportunity. But he told the sprotswriter that for the most part, people don't really care about it, except for Cubs fans, and I guess to a lesser extent, sports fans. But he told the writer to ask 100 people if they know who Steve Bartman is and report his findings. The writer went to some festival in Chicago at the time, and asked 100 random people. I think there were only like 3 people who knew of Bartman. And this was in Chicago.

Here's the article.

I laugh again, hang up the phone and head to Blues Fest, a melting pot of Chicago's multicultural diversity in Grant Park. On this humid, overcast Sunday, the park is filled with more than 100,000 people. I talk to everyone from homeless men begging for change to the economically elite sipping on wine and nibbling on cheese. I talk to police officers, preachers, garbage men, yuppies, even four Indian women sitting on a park bench bobbing their heads to the blues.

I ask every single one of them, 100 people total: "Does the name Steve Bartman mean anything to you?"

Twenty-seven say yes. Seventy-three say no. One "no" is a guy wailing on a harmonica in a tattered Cubs hat. When I clue him in that Bartman has something to do with the Cubs, he still can't guess.

"I just wear the hat," he says.

27 out of 100 is more like 1 out of 4. That's a bit more than the 3 previously stated.

 

[Frostillicus]

I should say though that I don't think Bartman was innocent. He acted like he was this feeble little boy or fan but he was thinking $$$ or personal greed/satisfaction when that ball was coming towards him. This should be an interesting documentary/film, by far this has been the best thing ESPN has done in the last 10 years with all these spotlights on historical sports happenings be it really old or more recent history.

What in the holy hell are you talking about?

 

[McJose]

I should say though that I don't think Bartman was innocent. He acted like he was this feeble little boy or fan but he was thinking $$$ or personal greed/satisfaction when that ball was coming towards him. This should be an interesting documentary/film, by far this has been the best thing ESPN has done in the last 10 years with all these spotlights on historical sports happenings be it really old or more recent history.

What in the holy hell are you talking about?

If MoP had a dime for every time he's heard that he'd make Trump look like a welfare mom.

 

[Arizona Ron]

GB not being a fan of any team. I bet the games, win/lose then move on with my week. Amazing how people treat teams like it's a part of their lives. Sad really.

Wow, why don't you two have a seat over there in the sactimonious box with Rick Reilly?

Fan of team >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gambling degenerate

"de·gen·er·ate/diˈjenərit/Adjective: Having lost the physical, mental, or moral qualities considered normal and desirable; showing evidence of decline."This sounds like more Fans that I know then gamblers. I lose a few bucks on a game, no big deal next week is another bet. Your Team loses and it ruins your week.

Between this & Goggins trying to play cute with my misspelling of sanctimonious, you two are trying way too hard here. When my team loses, it sucks, but my week is not ruined. HTH.

So you're saying you kick the dog but don't beat the wife. Got it.

 

[parrot]

Interesting that everyone seems to agree that it's too long. I'm listening to the director on Simmons' podcast. It was originally slated to be part of 30 for 30 and an hour long but the director thought it needed to be longer. Sounds like it was a mistake.

 

[Eephus]

Interesting that everyone seems to agree that it's too long. I'm listening to the director on Simmons' podcast. It was originally slated to be part of 30 for 30 and an hour long but the director thought it needed to be longer. Sounds like it was a mistake.

Simmons could use some help in the editing department himself

 

[Ghost Rider]

So, if you hate the Cubs and/or their fans, that's fine, but the truth of the matter is is that you have no frame of reference, and you have no idea what it's like. Bottom line: Did Bartman lose the game, and did he deserve the treatment he received? Not at all. Was it the turning point that caused the collapse? Definitely. Should there have been more about the Cubs over the years and the reason why the team and the fans were/are under so much pressure, and less about the Red Sox and preachers saying "3 to oh"? Absoultely.Haters feel free to flame away.

The near century of failure has some historical significance but there aren't many people alive who still remember the 1945 Series. Cubs fans aren't as unique as you make them out to be. Other teams have collapsed or come close repeatedly. The romanticism of Cubs and Red Sox fans is what turns a lot of neutrals off. You make it sound like the Cubs are the only bad team in the world.

Amen to this post. If you are a Cubs fan in your 20s, 30s or even 40s, you haven't suffered anywhere near as much as fans of the majority of MLB teams. Hell, if you are a 30-year old Pirates fan, you have had 30 years of mostly misery, with Sid Bream scoring to win the 1992 NLCS being as big a kick in the balls as anything the Cubs have endured in that time span.

 

[hook014]

I dont expect any Cubs fan to agree with me but my take on this hasnt changed since the night it happened. And I say this as a lifelong baseball fan who has watched religiously for 45 yrs. Yes, I'm kinda old.

Alou's reaction to the play is what changed the momentum more than anything else. And he's a pro with a decade of experience to know better. How many times has he gone to the railing to get a foul ball that was uncatchable? Too many to count.

Imagine this scenario, Alou jogs back to his position immediately after the ball drops dead with no emotion. Prior nor anyone on the team has anything to react to that's what. It's just another foul out of play, like thousands before it. They dont lose their focus and probably go on to win that game. He came out a few yrs ago and asked fans to let go of the Bartman hate. He oughta give the guy that much, it was his inability to control himself that knocked the wheels off the wagon. Teams lose opportunites by inches all the time, that's baseball. But temper tantrums by players on the field are a far different animal, one that all coaches bemoan. Because those are the things that cost his whole team the focus needed to win.

 

[Hoart Petterson]

I dont expect any Cubs fan to agree with me but my take on this hasnt changed since the night it happened. And I say this as a lifelong baseball fan who has watched religiously for 45 yrs. Yes, I'm kinda old. Alou's reaction to the play is what changed the momentum more than anything else. And he's a pro with a decade of experience to know better. How many times has he gone to the railing to get a foul ball that was uncatchable? Too many to count. Imagine this scenario, Alou jogs back to his position immediately after the ball drops dead with no emotion. Prior nor anyone on the team has anything to react to that's what. It's just another foul out of play, like thousands before it. They dont lose their focus and probably go on to win that game. He came out a few yrs ago and asked fans to let go of the Bartman hate. He oughta give the guy that much, it was his inability to control himself that knocked the wheels off the wagon. Teams lose opportunites by inches all the time, that's baseball. But temper tantrums by players on the field are a far different animal, one that all coaches bemoan. Because those are the things that cost his whole team the focus needed to win.

Alou's reaction was directly responsible for the Bartman scapegoating too. If Alou doesn't throw a tantrum nobody would ever have heard of Bartman. Bartman would have been able to watch the rest of that game from his seat as if nothing had happened.

 

[Da Guru]

I dont expect any Cubs fan to agree with me but my take on this hasnt changed since the night it happened. And I say this as a lifelong baseball fan who has watched religiously for 45 yrs. Yes, I'm kinda old. Alou's reaction to the play is what changed the momentum more than anything else. And he's a pro with a decade of experience to know better. How many times has he gone to the railing to get a foul ball that was uncatchable? Too many to count. Imagine this scenario, Alou jogs back to his position immediately after the ball drops dead with no emotion. Prior nor anyone on the team has anything to react to that's what. It's just another foul out of play, like thousands before it. They dont lose their focus and probably go on to win that game. He came out a few yrs ago and asked fans to let go of the Bartman hate. He oughta give the guy that much, it was his inability to control himself that knocked the wheels off the wagon. Teams lose opportunites by inches all the time, that's baseball. But temper tantrums by players on the field are a far different animal, one that all coaches bemoan. Because those are the things that cost his whole team the focus needed to win.

This guy gets it!

 

[McJose]

at all of the "suffering" sports fans. Come on.

 

[Oh Yes!]

So, if you hate the Cubs and/or their fans, that's fine, but the truth of the matter is is that you have no frame of reference, and you have no idea what it's like. Bottom line: Did Bartman lose the game, and did he deserve the treatment he received? Not at all. Was it the turning point that caused the collapse? Definitely. Should there have been more about the Cubs over the years and the reason why the team and the fans were/are under so much pressure, and less about the Red Sox and preachers saying "3 to oh"? Absoultely.Haters feel free to flame away.

The near century of failure has some historical significance but there aren't many people alive who still remember the 1945 Series. Cubs fans aren't as unique as you make them out to be. Other teams have collapsed or come close repeatedly. The romanticism of Cubs and Red Sox fans is what turns a lot of neutrals off. You make it sound like the Cubs are the only bad team in the world.

Amen to this post. If you are a Cubs fan in your 20s, 30s or even 40s, you haven't suffered anywhere near as much as fans of the majority of MLB teams. Hell, if you are a 30-year old Pirates fan, you have had 30 years of mostly misery, with Sid Bream scoring to win the 1992 NLCS being as big a kick in the balls as anything the Cubs have endured in that time span.

True, but almost all fans of a certain team know somebody that has witnessed a championship. My Dad, Grandpa, and Great Grandpa never saw the Cubs win a World Series.

 

[Walton Goggins]

So, if you hate the Cubs and/or their fans, that's fine, but the truth of the matter is is that you have no frame of reference, and you have no idea what it's like. Bottom line: Did Bartman lose the game, and did he deserve the treatment he received? Not at all. Was it the turning point that caused the collapse? Definitely. Should there have been more about the Cubs over the years and the reason why the team and the fans were/are under so much pressure, and less about the Red Sox and preachers saying "3 to oh"? Absoultely.

Haters feel free to flame away.

The near century of failure has some historical significance but there aren't many people alive who still remember the 1945 Series. Cubs fans aren't as unique as you make them out to be. Other teams have collapsed or come close repeatedly. The romanticism of Cubs and Red Sox fans is what turns a lot of neutrals off. You make it sound like the Cubs are the only bad team in the world.

Amen to this post. If you are a Cubs fan in your 20s, 30s or even 40s, you haven't suffered anywhere near as much as fans of the majority of MLB teams. Hell, if you are a 30-year old Pirates fan, you have had 30 years of mostly misery, with Sid Bream scoring to win the 1992 NLCS being as big a kick in the balls as anything the Cubs have endured in that time span.

True, but almost all fans of a certain team know somebody that has witnessed a championship. My Dad, Grandpa, and Great Grandpa never saw the Cubs win a World Series.

 

[Oh Yes!]

So, if you hate the Cubs and/or their fans, that's fine, but the truth of the matter is is that you have no frame of reference, and you have no idea what it's like. Bottom line: Did Bartman lose the game, and did he deserve the treatment he received? Not at all. Was it the turning point that caused the collapse? Definitely. Should there have been more about the Cubs over the years and the reason why the team and the fans were/are under so much pressure, and less about the Red Sox and preachers saying "3 to oh"? Absoultely.Haters feel free to flame away.

The near century of failure has some historical significance but there aren't many people alive who still remember the 1945 Series. Cubs fans aren't as unique as you make them out to be. Other teams have collapsed or come close repeatedly. The romanticism of Cubs and Red Sox fans is what turns a lot of neutrals off. You make it sound like the Cubs are the only bad team in the world.

Amen to this post. If you are a Cubs fan in your 20s, 30s or even 40s, you haven't suffered anywhere near as much as fans of the majority of MLB teams. Hell, if you are a 30-year old Pirates fan, you have had 30 years of mostly misery, with Sid Bream scoring to win the 1992 NLCS being as big a kick in the balls as anything the Cubs have endured in that time span.

True, but almost all fans of a certain team know somebody that has witnessed a championship. My Dad, Grandpa, and Great Grandpa never saw the Cubs win a World Series.

Sorry, this is not true.......Dad was born in 1952

are you messing w/ me?

 

[Daywalker]

Sure Mr. Turow you would not have put your hands up at a fly ball coming right at you. Doosh.

Misfortune couldn't meet a nicer guy then that Cuthbert creature. Guess that answers that save your dog/human thread.

Best line of the doc. was Buckner saying you put a major leaguer in the stands and they would go for that ball as well.

For god's sake it was 3-0, 1 out, 2 strikes after the fact. You proceeded to give up 8 runs. Enough of this changed the momentum BS. And if Alou was arranging a flight to go home early after game 6 then he deserved to lose.

 

[jomar]

My point was, Bartman's actions are inseparable from the rest of the events. It's very possible things play out completely differently if he doesn't interfere. This whole idea that Bartman's just a scapegoat and Cubs' fans are stupid for giving him a hard time is just people feeling sorry for the guy. He had a negative impact at a critical time for his team. Fans are entitled to be upset. I don't blame them for the ####### chants or throwing beers. The death threats and stuff after the game went too far.

That's fine, but by that logic a TON of things are also inseparable from the rest of the events. The bullpen for not shutting down the Marlins in the 9th inning of Game 1 and therefore possibly ending the series in a sweep. The manager and GM for not providing a better bullpen or using it more effectively in that game. The entire Cubs lineup mustering only 2 hits off Beckett in support of a quality outing by Zambrano in Game 5. Dusty Baker for sending Prior out there for the eighth inning as a young pitcher with a ton of innings behind him that season. Dusty Baker for letting Prior pitch that many innings over the course of the season in the first place. Prior for sucking in that inning, and possibly for putting his pride over the team's best interests by not telling his manager he was tiring. And so on and so on. Do these people and events get as much blame as Bartman? After all, by your logic it's all inseparable.

No, because most of those didn't happen in that game and didn't have the same deflating effect in the stadium. The connections are not as easy to make. That 8th inning is when the collapse began and it started with Bartman's mistake. Maybe I'm alone, but when I saw that play, I knew the bottom was going to fall out. It changed the momentum. Yes, the team collapsed, but that's not going to get as much blame as the catalyst. While the comparison to Buckner was overdone, it's a decent comparison. The Red Sox had many opportunities to win that series afterwards. Buckner's error was the catalyst for their collapse though.

why did it start with Bartman's mistake and not Prior's mistake of giving up a 1-out double to Pierre? that came before Castillo's at bat....

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I dont expect any Cubs fan to agree with me but my take on this hasnt changed since the night it happened. And I say this as a lifelong baseball fan who has watched religiously for 45 yrs. Yes, I'm kinda old. Alou's reaction to the play is what changed the momentum more than anything else. And he's a pro with a decade of experience to know better. How many times has he gone to the railing to get a foul ball that was uncatchable? Too many to count. Imagine this scenario, Alou jogs back to his position immediately after the ball drops dead with no emotion. Prior nor anyone on the team has anything to react to that's what. It's just another foul out of play, like thousands before it. They dont lose their focus and probably go on to win that game. He came out a few yrs ago and asked fans to let go of the Bartman hate. He oughta give the guy that much, it was his inability to control himself that knocked the wheels off the wagon. Teams lose opportunites by inches all the time, that's baseball. But temper tantrums by players on the field are a far different animal, one that all coaches bemoan. Because those are the things that cost his whole team the focus needed to win.

Alou's reaction was directly responsible for the Bartman scapegoating too. If Alou doesn't throw a tantrum nobody would ever have heard of Bartman. Bartman would have been able to watch the rest of that game from his seat as if nothing had happened.

You're crazy. You took the spirit of Hook's post and twisted it to suit you as usual.

 

[comfortably numb]

I was surprised to learn that Buckner has more career hits than Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio. And that Mr. MoP is even more extra special than I previously thought.Learn something new every day something something.

Buckner was a borderline HOFer.Wow, just looking at his stats, I didn't realize, looks like BOS traded away Buckner in season, in 1987, the year after.Then he bounced around and came back a few years later and finished his career in BOS with 22 game in 90.

 

[Eephus]

I was surprised to learn that Buckner has more career hits than Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio. And that Mr. MoP is even more extra special than I previously thought.Learn something new every day something something.

Buckner was a borderline HOFer.Wow, just looking at his stats, I didn't realize, looks like BOS traded away Buckner in season, in 1987, the year after.Then he bounced around and came back a few years later and finished his career in BOS with 22 game in 90.

It's debateable whether Buckner would even qualify for the HoVG. His 2715 career hits is his most impressive stat but is offset by his lack of power, walks and defensive value. He was a durable and slightly above average offensive producer for a long period of time but that's about it.He was selected for one All-Star game in the strike shortened 1981 season and never finished higher than 10th in MVP voting. He was on 2.1% of ballots during his one year of HoF eligibility and this was probably aided by his notoriety from 1986.

 

[TobiasFunke]

So, if you hate the Cubs and/or their fans, that's fine, but the truth of the matter is is that you have no frame of reference, and you have no idea what it's like. Bottom line: Did Bartman lose the game, and did he deserve the treatment he received? Not at all. Was it the turning point that caused the collapse? Definitely. Should there have been more about the Cubs over the years and the reason why the team and the fans were/are under so much pressure, and less about the Red Sox and preachers saying "3 to oh"? Absoultely.

Haters feel free to flame away.

The near century of failure has some historical significance but there aren't many people alive who still remember the 1945 Series. Cubs fans aren't as unique as you make them out to be. Other teams have collapsed or come close repeatedly. The romanticism of Cubs and Red Sox fans is what turns a lot of neutrals off. You make it sound like the Cubs are the only bad team in the world.

Amen to this post. If you are a Cubs fan in your 20s, 30s or even 40s, you haven't suffered anywhere near as much as fans of the majority of MLB teams. Hell, if you are a 30-year old Pirates fan, you have had 30 years of mostly misery, with Sid Bream scoring to win the 1992 NLCS being as big a kick in the balls as anything the Cubs have endured in that time span.

True, but almost all fans of a certain team know somebody that has witnessed a championship. My Dad, Grandpa, and Great Grandpa never saw the Cubs win a World Series.

Washington baseball fans haven't seen a World Series win since 1924, and have had to watch their baseball team leave town for another city twice since then (Twins in 1960, Rangers in 1971). I would happily have traded places with Cubs fans from the time I was born until we got a team again in 2005. Losing baseball is better than no baseball at all.

 

[ODoyleRules]

I dont expect any Cubs fan to agree with me but my take on this hasnt changed since the night it happened. And I say this as a lifelong baseball fan who has watched religiously for 45 yrs. Yes, I'm kinda old. Alou's reaction to the play is what changed the momentum more than anything else. And he's a pro with a decade of experience to know better. How many times has he gone to the railing to get a foul ball that was uncatchable? Too many to count. Imagine this scenario, Alou jogs back to his position immediately after the ball drops dead with no emotion. Prior nor anyone on the team has anything to react to that's what. It's just another foul out of play, like thousands before it. They dont lose their focus and probably go on to win that game. He came out a few yrs ago and asked fans to let go of the Bartman hate. He oughta give the guy that much, it was his inability to control himself that knocked the wheels off the wagon. Teams lose opportunites by inches all the time, that's baseball. But temper tantrums by players on the field are a far different animal, one that all coaches bemoan. Because those are the things that cost his whole team the focus needed to win.

Just watched the doc last night and this was my takeaway too. Alou's reaction was the catalyst for all of this. One of the strange things about that night too was the crowd on Waveland Ave. (incl. myself) - most other nights, there may not be a angry mob outside yelling ###hole to incite the rest of the stadium. I thought the viewpoint of the guy in the stadium with the video camera was good to give a proper perspective of what was really happening that night.