Catholics - Why Pray to Mary/Saints Instead of God Directly? (1 Viewer)

[cstu]

Seems a convoluted way to get a message to God.

"Hey Mary, pass this on to Jesus, will ya?"

 

[Apple Jack]

Seems a convoluted way to get a message to God.

"Hey Mary, pass this on to Jesus, will ya?"

Then you have to hope Jesus gets the message right when he passes it on to God. Sometimes there's a lot of information in the inflection and specific verbiage that can be lost in both translation and the retelling. Ask Mary to ask Jesus what the bible originally looked like. Dios mio!

 

[dutch]

god's vm is always full and he gets so many emails it takes him forever to respond so it's just easier to go through his assistants. Supposedly he gets the messages but I have my doubts.

 

[higgins]

As human beings it's easier to feel emotion/gratitude/love/etc. towards something that you can picture concretely than it is to something unknowable/unfathomable.

 

[dutch]

As human beings it's easier to feel emotion/gratitude/love/etc. towards something that you can picture concretely than it is to something unknowable/unfathomable.

and unreal

 

[Apple Jack]

As human beings it's easier to feel emotion/gratitude/love/etc. towards something that you can picture concretely than it is to something unknowable/unfathomable.

Is that more or less the official line on this?

 

[cstu]

Also, it must suck being a saint and spending eternity as a messenger.

Heaven indeed.

 

[Parrothead]

god's secretary?

 

[higgins]

As human beings it's easier to feel emotion/gratitude/love/etc. towards something that you can picture concretely than it is to something unknowable/unfathomable.

Is that more or less the official line on this?

Not at all -- I'm not even religious -- it just seemed obvious to me.

 

[Flying V]

You don't know a thing about brown-nosing, do you?

 

[cstu]

From the way I understand it, the saints are supposed to be a 'boost' for your prayers - much like when a bunch of people get together to pray for someone.

Seems like a popularity game though, as if the more friends makes it more likely God will help you.

 

[Apple Jack]

So the saints are kinda like your hype man?

 

[Lutherman2112]

Seems a convoluted way to get a message to God.

"Hey Mary, pass this on to Jesus, will ya?"

Intercession means to plea on anothers behalf. In practice intercession is a petitionary prayer on behalf of a fellow believer.(ie, would you please pray for the Smith family during this difficult time)

To Catholics, asking the Saints for prayer on their behalf is just like asking family and friends.

 

[timschochet]

Polytheism.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Because she appeared on my toast.

 

[mr roboto]

From the way I understand it, the saints are supposed to be a 'boost' for your prayers - much like when a bunch of people get together to pray for someone.

Seems like a popularity game though, as if the more friends makes it more likely God will help you.

The bold above is how it's been explained to me. Like if I asked a fellow alive Christian to pray for me for some concern.

 

[shader]

Just a non-biblical tradition. Like rosary beads, crosses, hail marys, statues, etc.

 

[Balance]

Just a non-biblical tradition. Like rosary beads, crosses, hail marys, statues, etc.

And Christmas and easter and wearing crosses.

 

[Dentist]

It's kind of like when you call microsoft support. Odds are you're not going to be able to get Bill Gates or Paul Allen on the phone, but there are plenty of competent operators standing by to meet your needs.

 

[LinusMarr]

I never understood that as a non catholic going to catholic school for a couple of years. Never understood the confession part either. I guess i cut to the chase and go right to the big guy...

 

[shader]

Just a non-biblical tradition. Like rosary beads, crosses, hail marys, statues, etc.

And Christmas and easter and wearing crosses.

true

 

[T Bell]

It's kind of like when you call microsoft support. Odds are you're not going to be able to get Bill Gates or Paul Allen on the phone, but there are plenty of competent operators standing by to meet your needs.

Does this mean that they have a Hindi accent?

 

[Dentist]

It's kind of like when you call microsoft support. Odds are you're not going to be able to get Bill Gates or Paul Allen on the phone, but there are plenty of competent operators standing by to meet your needs.

Does this mean that they have a Hindi accent?

most of the biblical stuff did happen over in the middle east

 

[mphtrilogy]

the nature of faith is believing that your source of inspiration will allow the universe to connect more strongly with your "intention". hence a better success rate if you firmly "believe" it is the key to the success many have had in "the secret", the power of intention and abraham hicks. So for those who connect strongly to a saint or to mary, may indeed open a better conduit, if you will, to the "source", aka "the universe", aka "God", etc..

hope this helps

namaste

 

[Rick James]

From the way I understand it, the saints are supposed to be a 'boost' for your prayers - much like when a bunch of people get together to pray for someone.

Seems like a popularity game though, as if the more friends makes it more likely God will help you.

The bold above is how it's been explained to me. Like if I asked a fellow alive Christian to pray for me for some concern.

interesting. As a baptist/methodist (attend both churches), I never knew this about Catholics.

 

[T Bell]

You have to feel for Mary - she gets knocked up out of wedlock, concocts this enormous story to cover it up, and now has to pass along prayer requests for all eternity while listening to claims that her image is everywhere from toast to tinted windows.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Couldn't we have stopped this thread title at "Why Pray?"

 

[Captain Quinoa]

Couldn't we have stopped this thread title at "Why Pray?"

you could, but that would be a different topic.

 

[mr roboto]

From the way I understand it, the saints are supposed to be a 'boost' for your prayers - much like when a bunch of people get together to pray for someone.

Seems like a popularity game though, as if the more friends makes it more likely God will help you.

The bold above is how it's been explained to me. Like if I asked a fellow alive Christian to pray for me for some concern.

interesting. As a baptist/methodist (attend both churches), I never knew this about Catholics.

It's kind of ironic because the Catholic practice of praying to the saints is rooted in the priesthood of all believers, yet they practically deny this belief by lifting the priesthood above the congregation as a mediator between them and God.

 

[Psychopav]

Just a non-biblical tradition. Like rosary beads, crosses, hail marys, statues, etc.

Sola scriptura, sola fide, etc.

 

[Psychopav]

From the way I understand it, the saints are supposed to be a 'boost' for your prayers - much like when a bunch of people get together to pray for someone.

Seems like a popularity game though, as if the more friends makes it more likely God will help you.

The bold above is how it's been explained to me. Like if I asked a fellow alive Christian to pray for me for some concern.

interesting. As a baptist/methodist (attend both churches), I never knew this about Catholics.

It's kind of ironic because the Catholic practice of praying to the saints is rooted in the priesthood of all believers, yet they practically deny this belief by lifting the priesthood above the congregation as a mediator between them and God.

Not really.

 

[Rick James]

From the way I understand it, the saints are supposed to be a 'boost' for your prayers - much like when a bunch of people get together to pray for someone.

Seems like a popularity game though, as if the more friends makes it more likely God will help you.

The bold above is how it's been explained to me. Like if I asked a fellow alive Christian to pray for me for some concern.

interesting. As a baptist/methodist (attend both churches), I never knew this about Catholics.

It's kind of ironic because the Catholic practice of praying to the saints is rooted in the priesthood of all believers, yet they practically deny this belief by lifting the priesthood above the congregation as a mediator between them and God.

which is why I'm not Catholic. why ask your priest for forgiveness when I can pray to God directly? doesn't make sense to me

 

[Psychopav]

Seems a convoluted way to get a message to God.

"Hey Mary, pass this on to Jesus, will ya?"

Intercession means to plea on anothers behalf. In practice intercession is a petitionary prayer on behalf of a fellow believer.(ie, would you please pray for the Smith family during this difficult time)

To Catholics, asking the Saints for prayer on their behalf is just like asking family and friends.

Good answer!

 

[Psychopav]

From the way I understand it, the saints are supposed to be a 'boost' for your prayers - much like when a bunch of people get together to pray for someone.

Seems like a popularity game though, as if the more friends makes it more likely God will help you.

The bold above is how it's been explained to me. Like if I asked a fellow alive Christian to pray for me for some concern.

interesting. As a baptist/methodist (attend both churches), I never knew this about Catholics.

It's kind of ironic because the Catholic practice of praying to the saints is rooted in the priesthood of all believers, yet they practically deny this belief by lifting the priesthood above the congregation as a mediator between them and God.

which is why I'm not Catholic. why ask your priest for forgiveness when I can pray to God directly? doesn't make sense to me

Here's why:

The practice of Confession arises from the example and command of Jesus, who showed that human nature could be used by God as an instrument of grace and forgiveness. He said "That you may know that the Son of Man has the power to forgive sin..." (Mt. 9:6; Mk 2:7-10; Lk 5:21-24). The Hebrew title He used was "ben Adam" meaning "Son of Adam." This was the Hebrew way of saying "a human being." Jesus always gloried in His Humanity, since through It He redeemed us. He communicated this authority to His Apostles on Easter night, "Whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven, whose sins you shall retain they are retained" (Jn 20:19-23). In this way He gave the Apostles the power to give "Peace" (v.21), which is nothing less than the reconciliation of man with God.

The text even makes clear how Confession is to be conducted. Christ's representative, the priest, must decide whether to forgive or retain. Therefore, the penitent must confess each and every serious sin, that is anything which separates him from Christ. If the priest judges he is truly sorry, He must absolve since Christ's Passion merited forgiveness for every repentant sinner. Only if the person shows no willingness to give up sin does the priest retain, that is withhold absolution, as we "do not give what is holy to dogs" (Mt 7:6).

In one form or another the Sacrament of Penance has been in continuous practice in the Church. Its existence in all the Churches of the First Millenium, even those separated from Rome, shows its apostolicity. The present Catholic discipline of secret confession dates to the early middle ages, though there are suggestions of an even earlier practice. Prior to that, confession of sins involved lengthy public penance for great sins such as adultery, murder and apostasy from the faith. Thankfully, it is much easier today. The point was, however, that serious sin is a horrendous offense against God that ought to be rare among the baptized but frequently is not. In the second and third century theological battles were fought over whether Penance could be received more than once after Baptism. The rigorists, like Tertullian, left the Church and their movements passed into history. Even the practice of the sacrament today is no encouragement to sin, as they thought. On the contrary it requires humility to confess your sins. It also gives great peace to hear the priest say in Jesus' name "I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." It is Christ's will that we hear those words.

Although God CAN forgive sin directly it requires a perfect motive: love of Him and sorrow over having offended such a good Lord. An imperfect motive would mean we have not fully turned from our sin back to God. Not every one can rise to the occasion, so rather than excluding the marginal person struggling with sins, perhaps even over a lifetime, Christ has given us the Sacrament in which He raises us up, even when our sorrow is weak and imperfect. This shows the dependence of the sacrament on grace and mercy. As Jesus himself said, He came not to save the self-righteous but the sinner.

 

[cstu]

He said "That you may know that the Son of Man has the power to forgive sin..." (Mt. 9:6; Mk 2:7-10; Lk 5:21-24).

How does one throwaway line in the Bible justify forcing people to confess their sins to a human being? That line suggests that a human being *CAN* forgive sin but not *MUST* forgive sin.

 

[Psychopav]

He said "That you may know that the Son of Man has the power to forgive sin..." (Mt. 9:6; Mk 2:7-10; Lk 5:21-24).

How does one throwaway line in the Bible justify forcing people to confess their sins to a human being? That line suggests that a human being *CAN* forgive sin but not *MUST* forgive sin.

One throwaway line?

He communicated this authority to His Apostles on Easter night, "Whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven, whose sins you shall retain they are retained" (Jn 20:19-23).

 

[St. Louis Bob]

Whe you could use a favor from the don, it's helpful to be in good graces with his wife.

HTH

 

[Bull Dozier]

From the way I understand it, the saints are supposed to be a 'boost' for your prayers - much like when a bunch of people get together to pray for someone.

Seems like a popularity game though, as if the more friends makes it more likely God will help you.

The bold above is how it's been explained to me. Like if I asked a fellow alive Christian to pray for me for some concern.

interesting. As a baptist/methodist (attend both churches), I never knew this about Catholics.

It's kind of ironic because the Catholic practice of praying to the saints is rooted in the priesthood of all believers, yet they practically deny this belief by lifting the priesthood above the congregation as a mediator between them and God.

which is why I'm not Catholic. why ask your priest for forgiveness when I can pray to God directly? doesn't make sense to me

Here's why:

The practice of Confession arises from the example and command of Jesus, who showed that human nature could be used by God as an instrument of grace and forgiveness. He said "That you may know that the Son of Man has the power to forgive sin..." (Mt. 9:6; Mk 2:7-10; Lk 5:21-24). The Hebrew title He used was "ben Adam" meaning "Son of Adam." This was the Hebrew way of saying "a human being." Jesus always gloried in His Humanity, since through It He redeemed us. He communicated this authority to His Apostles on Easter night, "Whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven, whose sins you shall retain they are retained" (Jn 20:19-23). In this way He gave the Apostles the power to give "Peace" (v.21), which is nothing less than the reconciliation of man with God.

The text even makes clear how Confession is to be conducted. Christ's representative, the priest, must decide whether to forgive or retain. Therefore, the penitent must confess each and every serious sin, that is anything which separates him from Christ. If the priest judges he is truly sorry, He must absolve since Christ's Passion merited forgiveness for every repentant sinner. Only if the person shows no willingness to give up sin does the priest retain, that is withhold absolution, as we "do not give what is holy to dogs" (Mt 7:6).

In one form or another the Sacrament of Penance has been in continuous practice in the Church. Its existence in all the Churches of the First Millenium, even those separated from Rome, shows its apostolicity. The present Catholic discipline of secret confession dates to the early middle ages, though there are suggestions of an even earlier practice. Prior to that, confession of sins involved lengthy public penance for great sins such as adultery, murder and apostasy from the faith. Thankfully, it is much easier today. The point was, however, that serious sin is a horrendous offense against God that ought to be rare among the baptized but frequently is not. In the second and third century theological battles were fought over whether Penance could be received more than once after Baptism. The rigorists, like Tertullian, left the Church and their movements passed into history. Even the practice of the sacrament today is no encouragement to sin, as they thought. On the contrary it requires humility to confess your sins. It also gives great peace to hear the priest say in Jesus' name "I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." It is Christ's will that we hear those words.

Although God CAN forgive sin directly it requires a perfect motive: love of Him and sorrow over having offended such a good Lord. An imperfect motive would mean we have not fully turned from our sin back to God. Not every one can rise to the occasion, so rather than excluding the marginal person struggling with sins, perhaps even over a lifetime, Christ has given us the Sacrament in which He raises us up, even when our sorrow is weak and imperfect. This shows the dependence of the sacrament on grace and mercy. As Jesus himself said, He came not to save the self-righteous but the sinner.

This is why I love biblical battles, from one little quote from Jesus, some people claim "the text even makes clear how Confession is to be conducted" even in the face of the fact that debates have raged for 2000 years on this very point. Obviously, nothing is "clear" on this issue.

Not to mention the fact that even not all Catholic priests do not require you to confess every sin in order to be forgiven.

 

[fatness]

Here's why:

The practice of Confession arises from the example and command of Jesus, who showed that human nature could be used by God as an instrument of grace and forgiveness. He said "That you may know that the Son of Man has the power to forgive sin..." (Mt. 9:6; Mk 2:7-10; Lk 5:21-24). The Hebrew title He used was "ben Adam" meaning "Son of Adam." This was the Hebrew way of saying "a human being." Jesus always gloried in His Humanity, since through It He redeemed us. He communicated this authority to His Apostles on Easter night, "Whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven, whose sins you shall retain they are retained" (Jn 20:19-23). In this way He gave the Apostles the power to give "Peace" (v.21), which is nothing less than the reconciliation of man with God.

The text even makes clear how Confession is to be conducted. Christ's representative, the priest, must decide whether to forgive or retain. Therefore, the penitent must confess each and every serious sin, that is anything which separates him from Christ. If the priest judges he is truly sorry, He must absolve since Christ's Passion merited forgiveness for every repentant sinner. Only if the person shows no willingness to give up sin does the priest retain, that is withhold absolution, as we "do not give what is holy to dogs" (Mt 7:6).

In one form or another the Sacrament of Penance has been in continuous practice in the Church. Its existence in all the Churches of the First Millenium, even those separated from Rome, shows its apostolicity. The present Catholic discipline of secret confession dates to the early middle ages, though there are suggestions of an even earlier practice. Prior to that, confession of sins involved lengthy public penance for great sins such as adultery, murder and apostasy from the faith. Thankfully, it is much easier today. The point was, however, that serious sin is a horrendous offense against God that ought to be rare among the baptized but frequently is not. In the second and third century theological battles were fought over whether Penance could be received more than once after Baptism. The rigorists, like Tertullian, left the Church and their movements passed into history. Even the practice of the sacrament today is no encouragement to sin, as they thought. On the contrary it requires humility to confess your sins. It also gives great peace to hear the priest say in Jesus' name "I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." It is Christ's will that we hear those words.

Although God CAN forgive sin directly it requires a perfect motive: love of Him and sorrow over having offended such a good Lord. An imperfect motive would mean we have not fully turned from our sin back to God. Not every one can rise to the occasion, so rather than excluding the marginal person struggling with sins, perhaps even over a lifetime, Christ has given us the Sacrament in which He raises us up, even when our sorrow is weak and imperfect. This shows the dependence of the sacrament on grace and mercy. As Jesus himself said, He came not to save the self-righteous but the sinner.

That's like all the small print at the end of Verizon bills which explains nothing and nobody reads.

 

[Jewell]

My understanding (and I'm no authority on this) is that different saints are best suited to help you with different things you're praying for. For example, St. Patrick is the saint to pray to if you wanted to drive away a snake, but if you wanted to chat with that snake instead then St. Francis is your guy.

 

[T Bell]

My understanding (and I'm no authority on this) is that different saints are best suited to help you with different things you're praying for. For example, St. Patrick is the saint to pray to if you wanted to drive away a snake, but if you wanted to chat with that snake instead then St. Francis is your guy.

Yeah, it's kind of like the Greek gods.

Do you ever wonder if one of the saints is bored with his avocation and wishes he could go back to saint school and get a new specialty?

 

[Flying V]

... if you wanted to chat with that snake instead then St. Francis is your guy.

Which is pretty impressive for a guy labeled a sissy.

 

[Dentist]

My understanding (and I'm no authority on this) is that different saints are best suited to help you with different things you're praying for. For example, St. Patrick is the saint to pray to if you wanted to drive away a snake, but if you wanted to chat with that snake instead then St. Francis is your guy.

Definitely.. a take on the roman/greek era of having "gods of thunder or war or water" now we've just recharacterized things as saints and assigned them some different tasks.

There's even a patron saint of dentistry!

 

[[icon]]

So the saints are kinda like your hype man?

Like Heems!

Heems is my Hypeman.

 

[proninja]

Just a non-biblical tradition. Like rosary beads, crosses, hail marys, statues, etc.

Sola scriptura, sola fide, etc.

Finally some fightin' words coming back the other way.

I'd argue, along with most protestants, that the five solas are fairly strongly rooted in scripture.

 

[Psychopav]

From the way I understand it, the saints are supposed to be a 'boost' for your prayers - much like when a bunch of people get together to pray for someone.

Seems like a popularity game though, as if the more friends makes it more likely God will help you.

The bold above is how it's been explained to me. Like if I asked a fellow alive Christian to pray for me for some concern.

interesting. As a baptist/methodist (attend both churches), I never knew this about Catholics.

It's kind of ironic because the Catholic practice of praying to the saints is rooted in the priesthood of all believers, yet they practically deny this belief by lifting the priesthood above the congregation as a mediator between them and God.

which is why I'm not Catholic. why ask your priest for forgiveness when I can pray to God directly? doesn't make sense to me

Here's why:

The practice of Confession arises from the example and command of Jesus, who showed that human nature could be used by God as an instrument of grace and forgiveness. He said "That you may know that the Son of Man has the power to forgive sin..." (Mt. 9:6; Mk 2:7-10; Lk 5:21-24). The Hebrew title He used was "ben Adam" meaning "Son of Adam." This was the Hebrew way of saying "a human being." Jesus always gloried in His Humanity, since through It He redeemed us. He communicated this authority to His Apostles on Easter night, "Whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven, whose sins you shall retain they are retained" (Jn 20:19-23). In this way He gave the Apostles the power to give "Peace" (v.21), which is nothing less than the reconciliation of man with God.

The text even makes clear how Confession is to be conducted. Christ's representative, the priest, must decide whether to forgive or retain. Therefore, the penitent must confess each and every serious sin, that is anything which separates him from Christ. If the priest judges he is truly sorry, He must absolve since Christ's Passion merited forgiveness for every repentant sinner. Only if the person shows no willingness to give up sin does the priest retain, that is withhold absolution, as we "do not give what is holy to dogs" (Mt 7:6).

In one form or another the Sacrament of Penance has been in continuous practice in the Church. Its existence in all the Churches of the First Millenium, even those separated from Rome, shows its apostolicity. The present Catholic discipline of secret confession dates to the early middle ages, though there are suggestions of an even earlier practice. Prior to that, confession of sins involved lengthy public penance for great sins such as adultery, murder and apostasy from the faith. Thankfully, it is much easier today. The point was, however, that serious sin is a horrendous offense against God that ought to be rare among the baptized but frequently is not. In the second and third century theological battles were fought over whether Penance could be received more than once after Baptism. The rigorists, like Tertullian, left the Church and their movements passed into history. Even the practice of the sacrament today is no encouragement to sin, as they thought. On the contrary it requires humility to confess your sins. It also gives great peace to hear the priest say in Jesus' name "I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." It is Christ's will that we hear those words.

Although God CAN forgive sin directly it requires a perfect motive: love of Him and sorrow over having offended such a good Lord. An imperfect motive would mean we have not fully turned from our sin back to God. Not every one can rise to the occasion, so rather than excluding the marginal person struggling with sins, perhaps even over a lifetime, Christ has given us the Sacrament in which He raises us up, even when our sorrow is weak and imperfect. This shows the dependence of the sacrament on grace and mercy. As Jesus himself said, He came not to save the self-righteous but the sinner.

This is why I love biblical battles, from one little quote from Jesus, some people claim "the text even makes clear how Confession is to be conducted" even in the face of the fact that debates have raged for 2000 years on this very point. Obviously, nothing is "clear" on this issue.Not to mention the fact that even not all Catholic priests do not require you to confess every sin in order to be forgiven.

Boy, with that much room for error in interpretation, you'd think Christ would have set up some sort of authoritative body to safeguard the truth.As far as the bolded, they don't? Maybe you left out the word "serious" in front of sin on purpose in order to make that a true statement?

It's true that sins are forgiven any number of ways, even under normal circumstances. But serious sins should normally be taken to the sacrament of reconciliation for forgiveness.

 

[quickhands]

Seems a convoluted way to get a message to God.

"Hey Mary, pass this on to Jesus, will ya?"

do you ever ask someone to pray for you? same thing

 

[Psychopav]

Just a non-biblical tradition. Like rosary beads, crosses, hail marys, statues, etc.

Sola scriptura, sola fide, etc.

Finally some fightin' words coming back the other way. I'd argue, along with most protestants, that the five solas are fairly strongly rooted in scripture.

I'd argue that they're not as strongly rooted as the tradition of apostolic succession, without which sacred scripture is a matter of personal interpretation. Then I'd refer you to discussion in every thread about Christianity this board has ever seen.

 

[Psychopav]

Seems a convoluted way to get a message to God.

"Hey Mary, pass this on to Jesus, will ya?"

do you ever ask someone to pray for you? same thing

And you don't ask just anyone to pray for you, you ask the people who you perceive to be pious.

 

[mr roboto]

Wasn't the doctrine of papal or apostolic succession in response to property rights and claims hundreds of years after the first apostles? The requirements for being an elder in the NT do not include some type of linear succession from the apostles anyway.