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Champ Bailey (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter rascal
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CalBear
Footballguy
Too bad they don't show him getting caught from behind by a TE from the other side of the field.
Fever in the Funkhouse
Footballguy
I believe that was Ben Watson (NE). One of the coolest plays I've seen over the past few years. It was a 90 yard run down from behind, and he shoved Champ about 10 yards out of bounds, keeping him from scoring.
Too bad they don't show him getting caught from behind by a TE from the other side of the field.
Too bad they don't show him getting caught from behind by a TE from the other side of the field.
yeah because one play like that, never mind the fact that a) took away a NE score, b) resulted in a Denver TD, is going to take away everything else he has done. Brilliant.
CalBear
Footballguy
What, are you his publicist or something? He's a good player, but overrated. Denver's defense did not get better when he arrived--in fact, it was better in 2003 than it has been in any year since.
SSOG
Moderator
Champ Bailey is so totally NOT overrated. No player in the league is even half as far ahead of his peers as Champ Bailey is... and he plays at one of the most important positions, to boot. He led the league in takeaways last year despite being probably the least-targeted CB in the game. Think about that for a second- despite having fewer opportunities than anyone else, he made more plays than anyone else. His Ints per Target has to be one of the highest numbers in NFL history. No CB in the last 25 years has had as many INTs over a 2-year span as Bailey has had his last two seasons in Denver (and no CB in the entire HoF has 18 picks in 2 years). And he's not just picking the ball off, either- he's averaging 17 yards a return, and leads the league in return yards over the last two seasons. And he's excelling for so long at a position where there's historically so much fluctuation from year to year. Look at the "top-5 CB lists" from year to year, and the one constant has been Champ Bailey. Bailey has made 7 straight Pro Bowls. The only other CB with close to that year-to-year consistency over that span is Ronde Barber (4 pro bowls over that span)- everyone else has less than half as many pro bowls as Bailey.Also, as for Denver's defense being better in 2003 than any year since... only if you go strictly by yardage without looking at anything else, which is a pretty asinine way to evaluate defenses (especially because it penalizes defenses that are really, really good- the best defenses tend to win a lot of games, and teams that win games tend to have lots of leads, and teams that have leads face a lot of pass attempts, and teams that face a lot of pass attempts give up more yards because the average pass attempt nets more yards than the average rush attempt). According to scoring defenses, Denver has ranked 8th, 4th, 10th, and 9th (meaning 2003 was their second worst season, and the last two years have been their best seasons). In 2003, the entire defense totaled 9 INTs- which was the average for Bailey alone over the past two seasons- and finished 31st in the league in takeaways. In 2006, the defense finished 12th in takeaways, and in 2005, the defense finished THIRD IN THE LEAGUE in takeaways. And Denver has done this despite hemorrhaging passrushers, losing Bertrand Berry after 2003, Reggie Hayward after 2004, and Trevor Pryce after 2005.CalBear said:
If you like Football Outsiders, their stats also sum it up nicely. Denver had the 10th best pass defense in 2006, the 5th best pass defense in 2005, the 4th best pass defense in 2004... and the 14th best pass defense in 2003.
By any rational measure (not simple yards allowed), 2005 was arguably Denver's best defense since the Dan Reeves era. While I might have agreed with you that Bailey was overrated after 2004, there is no way he's overrated after 2005 and 2006. He's Deion Sanders in his prime, except he's doing it against tougher rules.
Seriously, I think you say this stuff just to get a rise out of me.
Edit: I forgot to even mention how TIMELY his interceptions wind up being. It's not like just feasts on offenses in garbage time while the game is already out of reach. He has game-changing and SEASON-changing plays, like the pick-6 against San Diego early in 2005 that turned around the entire Broncos season, or the near pick-6 against New England that wound up being a 14 point swing, or the slew of picks inside the 5 yard line last season (I believe his first 8 INTs of the season all came inside the 5 yard line, making them complete drive-killers... and of the two that didn't, one of them was returned for a score).
Edit #2: Oh, and he tackles, too. You could take game tape of Champ Bailey and market it as an instructional video on how to make an open-field tackle. It's absolutely textbook. He's taken down Steven Jackson, Larry Johnson, LaDanian Tomlinson, Deuce McAllister, and more, all with equal ease.
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chook
Footballguy
Champ is nothing short of top shelf, anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves. I'd love it if he played for the Niners. Some pretty sweet kudos from Rod Smith in that video also.
CalBear
Footballguy
The 2003 and 2004 teams had identical 10-6 records. Here are some stats for you.
2003 |---------- PASSING -----------||----- RUSHING -----| TOTAL CMP ATT YD YPA TD INT ATT YD YPA TD YD 266 494 3049 6.17 17 9 379 1605 4.23 11 4654NFL rank ---> 3 9 6 9 7 32 2 7 19 11 32004 |---------- PASSING -----------||----- RUSHING -----| TOTAL CMP ATT YD YPA TD INT ATT YD YPA TD YD 272 485 3213 6.62 17 12 396 1512 3.82 16 4725NFL rank ---> 6 5 6 8 4 27 3 4 9 23 4So in 2003, teams attempted more passes against the Broncos than they did in 2004, but completed fewer passes for fewer yards and fewer yards per attempt, with the same number of passing TDs. The only passing measure Denver improved in was INTs, where they had 3 more. The 2005 and 2006 passing defenses also didn't beat the 2003 defense in terms of passing yards per attempt against, passing yardage against or passing TDs against.Bailey gets INTs, yes. He's perhaps the best interceptor in the league. Other than that, he's overrated.
TheGreatest
Footballguy
Stats can be deceiving IMO. Bailey is far from overated. Your talking team defense and Champ only covers one side of the field. C. Bailey is the best corner in the league and most would agree. I think you are going to be in the vast minority thinking he is overated.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Portis > Champ and T.Bell. Game over. Have a nice day.
I don't even think that Portis > Champ. Maybe you're assigning a negative number to Bell?lord_helmet
Footballguy
I think it was Rod Smith who once said something along these lines:
"Champ Bailey is the best overall football player I ever played with, and I played with Elway"
"Champ Bailey is the best overall football player I ever played with, and I played with Elway"
Absolutely. While he got 2nd in the voting for Defensive Player of the Year last season, it was a close vote with many thinking he should have got 1st. I agree because he has far fewer chances to make a play than a linebacker. The two things that stand out to me about last season - above all his other plays - are 1) Champ intercepting the only 2 balls thrown his way vs. the Cardinals AND 2) Champ falling behind Harrison vs. Indy and then beating Harrison to the ball. Manning discussed it after the game and gave big kudos. MANY say he takes away his side of the field. That's domination Dan, domination.Anyone who discredits his abilities should know they will be laughed at by 99.9% of anyone with knowledge of the NFL. You've seriously just gotta want to argue with everybody when you discredit Champ.
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
Anyone with the name Champ is destined for great things.
Easily one of the best football players in the entire league, and easily the best at his position.
Easily one of the best football players in the entire league, and easily the best at his position.
SSOG,
I agree with your statement that Bailey is incredible, but you were incorrect on him getting less looks, Here is an article that breaks that down
Teams don't shy away from Bailey
By KC Joyner
ESPN Insider
(Archive)
Updated: May 24, 2007, 10:59 AM ET
Comment
Email
Print
Champ Bailey is by far the top cornerback in the NFL. His 4.7 yards per attempt total last year was the best of any cornerback in the four years I have been breaking down tape. Since Bailey is always the best cornerback on the field no matter who lines up on the other side of him, it seems logical offenses would stay away from him under any circumstances.
May 22 Glossary
YPA (Yards Per Attempt): A quick barometer of a quarterback/wide receiver/tight end's efficiency.
• Complete Glossary
However, Bailey was thrown at 65 times in 2006, while Darrent Williams, the starter opposite Bailey for 14 games last season, had only 73 passes thrown his way. Bailey had 4.1 passes thrown at him per game, versus 5.2 for Williams.
Interestingly enough, Bailey and Williams were but one example of a number of odd cornerback pass distributions:
• Chris McAlister (7.3 YPA) had 97 passes thrown at him, versus 83 for Samari Rolle (10.1 YPA).
• Antoine Winfield spent the 2006 season lining up opposite a revolving door of cornerbacks on the other side of the field, yet still had 89 passes thrown his way, the seventh-highest total in the league.
• DeAngelo Hall isn't as good as many pundits suggest, but he played opposite Allen Rossum and Jason Webster, both of whom posted YPA totals over 10 yards. Despite the obvious weakness on the other side of the field, Hall had 87 passes directed at him.
Those aren't the only top cornerbacks who had a lot of passes thrown their way. In fact, the top-20 list of the most targeted cornerbacks from 2006 includes a slew of big names.
1. Anthony Henry, Dallas Cowboys -- 100
2. Chris McAlister, Baltimore Ravens -- 97
3. Charles Tillman, Chicago Bears -- 96
4. Carlos Rogers, Washington Redskins -- 96
5. Rashean Mathis, Jacksonville Jaguars -- 95
6. Quentin Jammer, San Diego Chargers -- 94
7. Antoine Winfield, Minnesota Vikings -- 89
8. DeAngelo Hall, Atlanta Falcons -- 87
9. Antrel Rolle, Arizona Cardinals -- 86
10. Fred Smoot, Minnesota Vikings -- 86
11. Fred Thomas, New Orleans Saints -- 86
12. Ronde Barber, Tampa Bay Buccaneers -- 85
13. Dunta Robinson, Houston Texans -- 84
14. Samari Rolle, Baltimore Ravens -- 83
15. Dre' Bly, Detroit Lions -- 83
16. Brian Williams, Jacksonville Jaguars -- 82
17. Asante Samuel, New England Patriots -- 82
18. Drayton Florence, San Diego Chargers -- 81
19. Daven Holly, Cleveland Browns -- 80
20. Will Allen, Miami Dolphins -- 80
Ronde Barber, Dunta Robinson, Dre Bly, Rashean Mathis, Asante Samuel and Will Allen are all arguably the best cornerbacks on their teams, yet were also the most targeted cornerbacks.
So why don't teams avoid the best cornerbacks? There are four possible reasons:
1. The best cornerback is often assigned to cover the top wide receiver. Offensive coordinators may want to stay away from the stronger cornerback if possible, but aren't willing to let their best receiver be taken out of the game.
2. Defensive coordinators will often help the weaker cornerback by rolling coverage his way, giving the offense a choice of throwing into the strength of the defensive coverage or taking its chances against the stronger cornerback.
3. A quarterback can't be expected to change his reads just because there is a less favorable matchup on one side of the field. If the play call says he is supposed to look at the receiver on the side of the stronger cornerback, he will look that way.
4. Some passing plays are predicated on how far off the receiver the cornerback lines up. For example, if a cornerback is playing seven or more yards off the wide receiver, the quarterback and receiver will often have a silent signal call to each other to change the play to a quick hitch pass.
The quick hitch, which is also called a smoke screen, is a pass where the quarterback takes a one-step drop and throws immediately to the receiver. A lot of the best cornerbacks in the league play soft coverage in an effort to stop the deep pass, and are willing to give up these kinds of plays in return.
There are still numerous instances where an offensive coordinator will consistently target the weaker cornerback in a secondary, but the metrics show that in most cases a topflight cornerback cannot expect to take off any games.
I agree with your statement that Bailey is incredible, but you were incorrect on him getting less looks, Here is an article that breaks that down
Teams don't shy away from Bailey
By KC Joyner
ESPN Insider
(Archive)
Updated: May 24, 2007, 10:59 AM ET
Comment
Champ Bailey is by far the top cornerback in the NFL. His 4.7 yards per attempt total last year was the best of any cornerback in the four years I have been breaking down tape. Since Bailey is always the best cornerback on the field no matter who lines up on the other side of him, it seems logical offenses would stay away from him under any circumstances.
May 22 Glossary
YPA (Yards Per Attempt): A quick barometer of a quarterback/wide receiver/tight end's efficiency.
• Complete Glossary
However, Bailey was thrown at 65 times in 2006, while Darrent Williams, the starter opposite Bailey for 14 games last season, had only 73 passes thrown his way. Bailey had 4.1 passes thrown at him per game, versus 5.2 for Williams.
Interestingly enough, Bailey and Williams were but one example of a number of odd cornerback pass distributions:
• Chris McAlister (7.3 YPA) had 97 passes thrown at him, versus 83 for Samari Rolle (10.1 YPA).
• Antoine Winfield spent the 2006 season lining up opposite a revolving door of cornerbacks on the other side of the field, yet still had 89 passes thrown his way, the seventh-highest total in the league.
• DeAngelo Hall isn't as good as many pundits suggest, but he played opposite Allen Rossum and Jason Webster, both of whom posted YPA totals over 10 yards. Despite the obvious weakness on the other side of the field, Hall had 87 passes directed at him.
Those aren't the only top cornerbacks who had a lot of passes thrown their way. In fact, the top-20 list of the most targeted cornerbacks from 2006 includes a slew of big names.
1. Anthony Henry, Dallas Cowboys -- 100
2. Chris McAlister, Baltimore Ravens -- 97
3. Charles Tillman, Chicago Bears -- 96
4. Carlos Rogers, Washington Redskins -- 96
5. Rashean Mathis, Jacksonville Jaguars -- 95
6. Quentin Jammer, San Diego Chargers -- 94
7. Antoine Winfield, Minnesota Vikings -- 89
8. DeAngelo Hall, Atlanta Falcons -- 87
9. Antrel Rolle, Arizona Cardinals -- 86
10. Fred Smoot, Minnesota Vikings -- 86
11. Fred Thomas, New Orleans Saints -- 86
12. Ronde Barber, Tampa Bay Buccaneers -- 85
13. Dunta Robinson, Houston Texans -- 84
14. Samari Rolle, Baltimore Ravens -- 83
15. Dre' Bly, Detroit Lions -- 83
16. Brian Williams, Jacksonville Jaguars -- 82
17. Asante Samuel, New England Patriots -- 82
18. Drayton Florence, San Diego Chargers -- 81
19. Daven Holly, Cleveland Browns -- 80
20. Will Allen, Miami Dolphins -- 80
Ronde Barber, Dunta Robinson, Dre Bly, Rashean Mathis, Asante Samuel and Will Allen are all arguably the best cornerbacks on their teams, yet were also the most targeted cornerbacks.
So why don't teams avoid the best cornerbacks? There are four possible reasons:
1. The best cornerback is often assigned to cover the top wide receiver. Offensive coordinators may want to stay away from the stronger cornerback if possible, but aren't willing to let their best receiver be taken out of the game.
2. Defensive coordinators will often help the weaker cornerback by rolling coverage his way, giving the offense a choice of throwing into the strength of the defensive coverage or taking its chances against the stronger cornerback.
3. A quarterback can't be expected to change his reads just because there is a less favorable matchup on one side of the field. If the play call says he is supposed to look at the receiver on the side of the stronger cornerback, he will look that way.
4. Some passing plays are predicated on how far off the receiver the cornerback lines up. For example, if a cornerback is playing seven or more yards off the wide receiver, the quarterback and receiver will often have a silent signal call to each other to change the play to a quick hitch pass.
The quick hitch, which is also called a smoke screen, is a pass where the quarterback takes a one-step drop and throws immediately to the receiver. A lot of the best cornerbacks in the league play soft coverage in an effort to stop the deep pass, and are willing to give up these kinds of plays in return.
There are still numerous instances where an offensive coordinator will consistently target the weaker cornerback in a secondary, but the metrics show that in most cases a topflight cornerback cannot expect to take off any games.
SSOG
Moderator
There wasn't a single CB in the entire article with fewer targets than Bailey, so I don't see what you're getting at there
. Joyner listed 25 or so CBs, and Bailey had *SIGNIFICANTLY* fewer looks than any of them.Also, claims that all Bailey does is intercept the ball are ludicrous. As Joyner said, no other CB allowed fewer yards per attempt against- hardly the sign of someone who doesn't do anything except get interceptions. Seems like a sign of also having the best coverage in the league, too.Prodigal19
Footballguy
How is Champ Bailey overrated?He gets a ton of interceptions at clutch times. He rarely ever gets beat deep. He allowed 0 TDs last year and only like 1 the year before. He is one of the best if not the best tackling CB in the game. He takes away the entire of the field. he often intercepts passes that arent even to his guy.
According to football outsiders Denver was by far the best against opposing number 1 WRs. According to KC Joyner he had the least YPA against of any CB.
So I ask again. How is champ Bailey overrated?
IAmTheBruteSquad
Footballguy
Champ Bailey is "The Man." And he knows he's "The Man." And yet he has the leadership characteristics of integrity, humility, and respect for the game. And, beyond just being the most dominate defensive player in the game, that's the real reason that he's "The Man."
phthalatemagic
Footballguy
Why would a TE chase a CB. The only reason I can think of is that the CB somehow got the ball.
Borat
Footballguy
You do realize that's not his real name, right?
Borat
Footballguy
Portis > Champ and T.Bell. Game over. Have a nice day.
There are at least a dozen RBs comparable to Clinton Portis in terms of ability. There is not a CB in the league who is comparable to Bailey.
jurb26
Footballguy
I really don't get the amount of love Champ that seems to be going around. I guess it really just shows the what have you done for me lately nature of the NFL. Champ had a GREAT season in 2006. He was pretty dang good in 2005 as well, but no where near the hands down best CB in the league, let alone defensive player. Champ has been inconsistent for most of his career thus far. He looked average at times in Washington and that is a major reason they traded him. I can appreciate as much as anyone the superb play Champ displayed last year. I just am not ready to mark him as "that" good until I see it with more consistency.
Borat
Footballguy
I would agree with this. Lately, no one has been on par with Bailey, but you are correct in that he has been inconsistent over the course of his career.
Penguin
Footballguy
Jurb26, Just curious, who would be on your top 5 cornerbacks list?
jurb26
Footballguy
Right now, I have no problem with Champ being listed as the best CB or top 5. Only I don't see all this separation that others seem to based off of 1 superb season. From reading all the posts and articles this off-season you would think Champ had been playing at his 2006 level for several years. The harsh reality is that he has not. Actually most of his career has not even been close to last years performance. Champ has been able to put up the best 2 seasons of his career in consecutive years however. So maybe he is just hitting his prime for whatever reason. At any rate here is the list you requested:BaileyMathisMcAlisterSamuelTrufantOthers:AsomughaClementsSheppardS. BrownNewman
Consistency? 60+ tackles and 8+ INT's the last two years isn't good enough for you? WOW And he wasn't "nowhere near the best CB in 2005". DOUBLE WOW
BTW here's a idea...maybe he didn't put up similar type numbers in Washington because the rest of his team sucked?
BTW here's a idea...maybe he didn't put up similar type numbers in Washington because the rest of his team sucked?
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jurb26
Footballguy
Riiight, that was it. Then what about his 1st year in Den?Not sure it really matters. You clearly couldn't even read the post properly.
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Prodigal19
Footballguy
I can see where you are coming from.The fact is that champ played much much better the past 2 years than he did any previous year. This is mainly because he started palying off the receivers a lot more, which he really likes.Jim Bates is no the new defensive coordinator, and his system has the corner backs do a lot of press coverage man to man. Bates has said that he will try to accommodate what bailey is great at though.So I guess we will see if Champ can keep his dominance up.Champ without a doubt has been the best corner back over the last 2 years though.jurb26 said:
jurb26
Footballguy
I'd certainly agree that Champ's strength is playing a "soft" coverage. He excels in his backpedal and with ball skills. I can't even tell you how many INTs Bailey had last year that looked to be gimmes because of this. He would just stay in his backpedal and QBs would seemingly throw the ball right to him. I think one of the reasons Den went with this soft coverage scheme on the corners is because of the poor range they have had at S. They still don't have a safety that has range or cover skills IMO, so I doubt the scheme will change much. Yes, Champ really has only been dominant the past 2 years. There is really no 2 ways about that if you ask me.
Bailey is Godly.
I think if you asked every owner in the league who would you rather have Bailey or Portis, Even that Jackass Snyder might admit he messed up that one.
In fact as a fantasy player you start to ignore defenders, but Champ is one that I for one love to watch. He stops the best WR ( Or TE) on the other team every week.
I think if you asked every owner in the league who would you rather have Bailey or Portis, Even that Jackass Snyder might admit he messed up that one.
In fact as a fantasy player you start to ignore defenders, but Champ is one that I for one love to watch. He stops the best WR ( Or TE) on the other team every week.
SSOG
Moderator
I think the problem is you're expecting consistancy from a position with very little consistancy, historically. Look how the "top 5 CBs" lists change from year to year and you'll see that NOBODY remains dominant from year to year. The only guys who are great every year are Bailey, and to a lesser extent, Ronde Barber and Chris McAllister. Bailey has made 7 straight pro bowls- the only other CB in the league that has made even HALF that amount during that span is Ronde Barber with 4. All other CBs have 3 or less. CBs simply aren't consistant from year to year. While Champ has been a bit inconsistant, he's been far less so than the rest of his peers.Prior to 2 years ago, he wasn't inarguably the top CB in the league, but he was certainly in the top 5... but after the last two seasons (especially considering he played 2005 with several injuries), there's no question that he's hands down the best CB in the league. Especially after last year, which has to go down as one of the top 5 CB seasons in NFL history, especially when you consider how much the rules were stacked against him. He was one of the least targeted CBs in the league, but he still led the league in INTs, and he also led the league in YPA against (meaning he wasn't gambling to make big plays). He didn't allow a TD, he had 7 INTs inside the 5 yard line (drive-killers), and he returned a pick for a score. Unbelievable.
Prodigal19
Footballguy
That is what I loveThose three stats should not belong to he same CB, it simply does not seem possible. It really shows how well he played last year and I simply cant imagine a corner having a better year than he did last year.
Saints-Man
Footballguy
He is a superior CB to Deion Sanders.
SSOG
Moderator
Whether Dr. Z likes him or not, the stats are pretty clear. Lowest YPA on passes against. One of the lowest targets in the league. Most big plays. And this is ignoring his tackling ability (he's one of the top 5 CBs in the league in run support, probably top 3 with Winfield and Barber), and it's also without adjusting for the quality of his competition (usually pretty top-notch). And I don't know what he's talking about when he says Bailey gets into one "walkabout per contest", since Bailey gave up 0 TDs and the lowest YPA against. Does that mean that Bailey screws up only once per game? I'd love a CB who only screwed up 16 times a season. When he says that Bailey gets beaten on occassion, does that mean there are other CBs who don't?I think that Dr. Z is just too hung up on the idea of finding no-names and who-dats, championing the underdog, and it just turns his stomach to go along with the general consensus.
Phlash
Footballguy
The only people who say Champ Bailey is overrated are the ones who don't watch him play. I make a point of watching him when NFL Replay is on, just to see if I can find a flaw in his game. I can't. Not only does he shut down the best receivers in the NFL, but he can tackle any RB/TE/WR with ease, while not going out and trying to hurt himself ala Rodney Harrison. His play style is in one word solid, and while solid usually means the guy is decent, Champ is so much more than that. He is solid in that he has no holes in his game, whatsoever. If he gets beat, its usually a rare occurrence of the defense coordinator screwing up with the call or miscommunication with the safeties, but make no mistake, Champ is a beast. If any GM in history was starting a team and needed a #1 CB, Champ Bailey would be the first choice by anyone. I say he's the best ever.
jurb26
Footballguy
Yeah, we've never watched him play. I'd say you only watch him play 2 seasons, not 8. Certainly not his 1st 5 in Wash. I've already said that his 2006 season was extremely impressive. It is hardly the norm for Champ though. Anyone who has "watched him play" would be able to see that.
Tau837
Footballguy
I don't think Bailey is as good as Deion Sanders, Rod Woodson (if you consider him a corner), **** (Night Train) Lane, or Mel Blount. I'd say he is in the neighborhood of Mike Haynes, Darrell Green, and Aeneas Williams. And I'm sure there are other names, these are just the ones that came to mind for me. And, yes, I realize it's hard to compare CBs across eras because of rule changes.
