Charitable Work and how it relates to God / Religion if at all (1 Viewer)

[Joe Bryant]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the discussion on this. I do feel like I caused sort of a train wreck though in how poorly I communicated. 

One of my least favorite things to see on the board are posts that are offensive or insulting or condescending. I managed all three yesterday. And I apologize. 

Thank you for the feedback in helping me understand. That's always valuable. And I'll do my best to do better there in the future. Rock on. 

 

[Chemical X]

Wanted to get some feedback and opinion here.

Saw this article the other day and thought it was awesome and interesting. 

It's an Athiest group in Austin working together helping Homeless Folks. I don't know anymore than what I'm reading in the article but apparently it's a big project and they've been doing it for 8 years. That's awesome. 

My question - There is sometimes a religious component of charity. A church operates a soup kitchen or synagogue does a shelter or mosque organizes a food bank. That kind of thing. Most religions have some component of caring for others, especially those in need.

Others like this group in Austin, obviously don't have a religious component. Groups like the Peace Corps don't either (or at least I don't think they do.)

For the non religious groups doing charitable stuff (and there are a lot), what do you think is the motivation? I'd love to hear from you if you've personally done this type of stuff. But even if you haven't, if you have an opinion on it, I'd love to hear.

And this isn't any right or wrong answer. I'm only asking for opinions on it. Thanks.

i am jewish, but in name only.  non practicing.  i deliver for meals on wheels and have set up a scholarship in honour of my MIL at my wife’s old HS.  i do it for a combo of reasons.  

-to honour important people i lost too early.

-i have the means and, with no kids, can’t “take it with me”.

-trump has made this country so divided and angry, there has to be something more to life than arguing D v R.

 

[Galileo]

I will say this, all the people I know who were once Christian and have bailed on the belief have one of two things in common.  They were either Catholic OR they went to a school/college/university that was "Christian".  Every single one.  Again, another anecdote that points me towards believing that if we didn't have organized religion in this world, it might be better off.

Add me to your list.  I check both boxes...Catholic grade school --> Jesuit high school --> Texas Christian University.

 

[The Commish]

Add me to your list.  I check both boxes...Catholic grade school --> Jesuit high school --> Texas Christian University.

To be clear, it wasn't a knock on the individuals I have met, but it's incredibly (coincidental?) odd to me how similar their experiences were growing up and how religion was presented to them.

 

[Nipsey]

 For those that have positive role models who can teach them the ways of this world and how to be happy in it and how to further their self-fulfillment, I could make the argument that religion is unnecessary.  However, for those who have no role model it can be really tough. 

I don't really see it as a role model thing. I see it as a "thinking" thing. It's a difference in how people are wired. Obviously for a lot people the pull of religion is virtually inescapable and I don't think that has anything to do with who they were around in their formidable years.

 

[Galileo]

To be clear, it wasn't a knock on the individuals I have met, but it's incredibly (coincidental?) odd to me how similar their experiences were growing up and how religion was presented to them.

It was always forced upon me.  I do not recall a time where I actually accepted or internalized the faith.  I tried. I suppose my later high school years were the times when I was "most religious" and really tried to find some inner peace with it...mainly because I thought that was what I supposed to do.  It was what I was surrounded by at home...at school...  It was a source of internal stress for me for such a long time and and actually still continues to be.  My wife is very much active in the Catholic church.  Before we got married, she made me promise to raise our children in the Catholic faith.  At the time, I remember thinking "alright, no big deal.  I turned out OK and the church does offer some worthwhile lessons in human behavior."  This has turned out to be something I regret as it is now the biggest source of tension in our household with a 15 yr old and a 13 yr, now capable of independent thought trying to figure it all out.

 

[The Commish]

 For those that have positive role models who can teach them the ways of this world and how to be happy in it and how to further their self-fulfillment, I could make the argument that religion is unnecessary.  However, for those who have no role model it can be really tough. 

I don't really see it as a role model thing. I see it as a "thinking" thing. It's a difference in how people are wired. Obviously for a lot people the pull of religion is virtually inescapable and I don't think that has anything to do with who they were around in their formidable years.

Role models was a poor way of saying examples of positivity in their lives I suppose.  Reading back I didn't really word it well.  I think a better way to say it is religion CAN BE that "ah ha" moment/roadmap in one's life where they don't really have good examples of how to interact with people or the world in general.  Of course, I speak here and make comments in the context of my religion Christianity, but there isn't much in Christianity that isn't found in some form in the other religions, so I use the general term "religion".  

Even if you see it as a "thinking" thing, the thinking part has to be based on SOMETHING.  There has to be a starting point and usually that starting point is what we "know" and "observe" in the world around us.

 

[The Commish]

It was always forced upon me.  I do not recall a time where I actually accepted or internalized the faith.  I tried. I suppose my later high school years were the times when I was "most religious" and really tried to find some inner peace with it...mainly because I thought that was what I supposed to do.  It was what I was surrounded by at home...at school...  It was a source of internal stress for me for such a long time and and actually still continues to be.  My wife is very much active in the Catholic church.  Before we got married, she made me promise to raise our children in the Catholic faith.  At the time, I remember thinking "alright, no big deal.  I turned out OK and the church does offer some worthwhile lessons in human behavior."  This has turned out to be something I regret as it is now the biggest source of tension in our household with a 15 yr old and a 13 yr, now capable of independent thought trying to figure it all out.

You aren't alone GB.  I've heard this story a hundred times.

 

[Galileo]

You aren't alone GB.  I've heard this story a hundred times.

As have I.  In many ways I think my religious background is responsible for steering me towards a degree/career in physics...that and a psychotic high school physics teacher! 

 

[Politician Spock]

This is true and not true.  Stay with me here.  For those that have positive role models who can teach them the ways of this world and how to be happy in it and how to further their self-fulfillment, I could make the argument that religion is unnecessary.  However, for those who have no role model it can be really tough.  Is it impossible?  No.  But it can be really tough to the point where I might use the words "they need their religion".  I'm glad you got this back on track with your post.  This continues to go back to my point that religion is a tool and it's only as useful to the individual as their ability to use it.  So it's easy to see, if it is indeed a tool in your toolbox for navigating the world, depending on how you use it, it can be the best or worst thing ever.  If believers lean on it too much, it will be a hindrance.  If they don't lean on it enough they will go astray.  

I appreciate your perspective on religion, but in regards to christianity, it's a religion that gains followers by convincing people that without it you're going to hell. A lot of christians are christian simply because it's an insurance policy if after death christianity proves to be true. It's not something they use to navigate the world. In fact, the deeper they go into the religion, the more they avoid the world. I would describe many of them as being institutionalized in that they can't really function without their safe christian shell surrounding them.  

 

[Politician Spock]

I don't really see it as a role model thing. I see it as a "thinking" thing. It's a difference in how people are wired. Obviously for a lot people the pull of religion is virtually inescapable and I don't think that has anything to do with who they were around in their formidable years.

Yes, there is a TON of group thought, especially within christianity. This is why there are so many different denominations. Being "like minded" is a commandment, so the minority that doesn't conform to the group though of the majority are ostracized, which sometimes results in the minority forming a new denomination. 

 

[msommer]

It was always forced upon me.  I do not recall a time where I actually accepted or internalized the faith.  I tried. I suppose my later high school years were the times when I was "most religious" and really tried to find some inner peace with it...mainly because I thought that was what I supposed to do.  It was what I was surrounded by at home...at school...  It was a source of internal stress for me for such a long time and and actually still continues to be.  My wife is very much active in the Catholic church.  Before we got married, she made me promise to raise our children in the Catholic faith.  At the time, I remember thinking "alright, no big deal.  I turned out OK and the church does offer some worthwhile lessons in human behavior."  This has turned out to be something I regret as it is now the biggest source of tension in our household with a 15 yr old and a 13 yr, now capable of independent thought trying to figure it all out.

Don't worry, they will (figure it out). Mine did (17 and 15 now)

 

[The Commish]

I appreciate your perspective on religion, but in regards to christianity, it's a religion that gains followers by convincing people that without it you're going to hell. A lot of christians are christian simply because it's an insurance policy if after death christianity proves to be true. It's not something they use to navigate the world. In fact, the deeper they go into the religion, the more they avoid the world. I would describe many of them as being institutionalized in that they can't really function without their safe christian shell surrounding them.  

I'm sure there are some that believe this, and I know there are several who get a lot of air time that believe this.  This characterization is a very broad characterization of millions of people that I believe is quite off base.  Based on all my life experiences, they are a clear minority.  No matter if I am doing work in Pakistan, or talking with people in China or working in South America, there has never been a group where I felt a "sales pitch" (that's sort of how I read the above) was ever necessary especially for those hearing the gospel for the first time.  Most new Christians I interact with are drawn to the example that Jesus lived.  Even the most jaded person towards religion would find it difficult to disagree with the way he lived his life as described in scripture.  

TL'DR:  I think you characterization and quantities are the exact opposite.  I'm interested to know what world experiences you've had to lead you to believe otherwise.  This stuff fascinates me.

 

[The Commish]

Yes, there is a TON of group thought, especially within christianity. This is why there are so many different denominations. Being "like minded" is a commandment, so the minority that doesn't conform to the group though of the majority are ostracized, which sometimes results in the minority forming a new denomination. 

First:  Which commandment covers us having to be "like minded"?

Second:  How is so many different denominations an example of being "like minded"?  It would be the opposite wouldn't it?  The reason there are so many denominations within the religion is because they DON'T all interpret/believe scripture the same way.  If they did, there'd only be on sect, right?

 

[Politician Spock]

I'm sure there are some that believe this, and I know there are several who get a lot of air time that believe this.  This characterization is a very broad characterization of millions of people that I believe is quite off base.  Based on all my life experiences, they are a clear minority.  No matter if I am doing work in Pakistan, or talking with people in China or working in South America, there has never been a group where I felt a "sales pitch" (that's sort of how I read the above) was ever necessary especially for those hearing the gospel for the first time.  Most new Christians I interact with are drawn to the example that Jesus lived.  Even the most jaded person towards religion would find it difficult to disagree with the way he lived his life as described in scripture.  

TL'DR:  I think you characterization and quantities are the exact opposite.  I'm interested to know what world experiences you've had to lead you to believe otherwise.  This stuff fascinates me.

Most christians are consumed with who Jesus was when he was born, and what he did when he died. What he actually did during his life is less important. 

This isn't just my opinion. James Tabor (Professor in the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina) wrote an entire book on that issue, and explains why they do that in his book "Paul and Jesus". It's a good read. You should pick up a copy. 

 

[Politician Spock]

First:  Which commandment covers us having to be "like minded"?

Romans 15:5; 2 Corinthians 13:11; Philippians 2:2; Philippians 2:20; and 1 Peter 3:8.

Second:  How is so many different denominations an example of being "like minded"?  It would be the opposite wouldn't it?  The reason there are so many denominations within the religion is because they DON'T all interpret/believe scripture the same way.  If they did, there'd only be on sect, right?

Because all denominations don't believe all denominations are saved. 

 

[The Commish]

Most christians are consumed with who Jesus was when he was born, and what he did when he died. What he actually did during his life is less important. 

This isn't just my opinion. James Tabor (Professor in the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina) wrote an entire book on that issue, and explains why they do that in his book "Paul and Jesus". It's a good read. You should pick up a copy. 

I've read it.  And I'll just respond by saying, his sample set wasn't as large as it should have been.

And it should be noted that I don't AT ALL disagree that there are Christians out there as you describe.  My rub is the use of the word "most" in your characterizations with no other qualifiers.  There's simply no way a generalization like that applies to such a large religion spread across the world.  So, "most that I know or have talked to" is different than "most" for example.  The ONLY thing I would use "most" with no other qualifiers with is a statement like "Most Christians believe that Jesus is the savior of this world from the punishment from sin".  

 

[The Commish]

Romans 15:5; 2 Corinthians 13:11; Philippians 2:2; Philippians 2:20; and 1 Peter 3:8.

Sorry...when you say commandment, I assume the 10 commandments.  I don't consider these commandments in the Biblical sense.  Thanks for clarifying though.

Because all denominations don't believe all denominations are saved. 

If I'm being honest, I don't know all the politics between the denominations.  I know there are some that are "once saved, always saved" and "you can be saved, but you can also lose it" etc.  Regardless....all this disagreement still seems to point to the opposite of your assertion that group thought is rampant.  There are many different denominations who have varying beliefs/interpretation of scripture.

Anyway, I don't want to hijack this thread any further.  I'm happy to continue the discussion in PM or whatever, but I don't imagine our tangent here is what JB intended.  Have a good evening.

 

[Buttonhook]

I'm not religious anymore, but given I was for 30+ years of my life, I'll throw in my thoughts. 

I don't think the world would be much different at all, except that some people would stop giving god credit for everything good that ever happens, and blaming sinners for everything bad that ever happens, and all the social institutions that religions stole ownership of, like marriage and Christmas, would return back to their social roots.  

I do think some people are going to have extreme perceptions on how different the world would be. For example, the LGBT community would no longer suffer from the hate they experience. So if things like that are what make you feel the world would be an infinitely better place, then I have no reason to disagree with you. But my initial feelings are that for most people things wouldn't be much different at all. 

PS - I agree with a lot of what you said, but I'm surprised to read the bolded.  What about all of the wars and mass executions in the name of religion?  It's all over the world and throughout history, but as a more specific/modern example, you don't think the Middle East would be different without any religion?  Seems like religion and secular wars have been the main reason that region has struggled to advance as a society.

 

[The Commish]

I'm not religious anymore, but given I was for 30+ years of my life, I'll throw in my thoughts. 

I don't think the world would be much different at all, except that some people would stop giving god credit for everything good that ever happens, and blaming sinners for everything bad that ever happens, and all the social institutions that religions stole ownership of, like marriage and Christmas, would return back to their social roots.  

I do think some people are going to have extreme perceptions on how different the world would be. For example, the LGBT community would no longer suffer from the hate they experience. So if things like that are what make you feel the world would be an infinitely better place, then I have no reason to disagree with you. But my initial feelings are that for most people things wouldn't be much different at all. 

PS - I agree with a lot of what you said, but I'm surprised to read the bolded.  What about all of the wars and mass executions in the name of religion?  It's all over the world and throughout history, but as a more specific/modern example, you don't think the Middle East would be different without any religion?  Seems like religion and secular wars have been the main reason that region has struggled to advance as a society.

I wrestle with this from time to time but keep coming back to the conclusion that "bad people are going to do bad things regardless of the menu of options for justification in front of them".  They'll pick something else.  I don't see a scenario where a power hungry group like ISIS is going to say "Damn, without religion, I have no reason for trying to take control of this region...bummer"

 

[Buttonhook]

I wrestle with this from time to time but keep coming back to the conclusion that "bad people are going to do bad things regardless of the menu of options for justification in front of them".  They'll pick something else.  I don't see a scenario where a power hungry group like ISIS is going to say "Damn, without religion, I have no reason for trying to take control of this region...bummer"

There are plenty of bad people doing bad things without religion as a reason, but there's also millions of people trying to do harm to other people specifically in the name of religion, and I'm not convinced these same groups of people would have the same motivation if they didn't firmly believe they were "doing God's work" by eradicating others who don't believe in their religion.

 

[matuski]

There are plenty of bad people doing bad things without religion as a reason, but there's also millions of people trying to do harm to other people specifically in the name of religion, and I'm not convinced these same groups of people would have the same motivation if they didn't firmly believe they were "doing God's work" by eradicating others who don't believe in their religion.

Agree with Commish here.

Religion is a tool.  The most ingenious tool man ever made.  But just a tool none-the-less.

In Commish's "menu of options" reference - religion is a one stop shop.

 

[The Commish]

There are plenty of bad people doing bad things without religion as a reason, but there's also millions of people trying to do harm to other people specifically in the name of religion, and I'm not convinced these same groups of people would have the same motivation if they didn't firmly believe they were "doing God's work" by eradicating others who don't believe in their religion.

I get this POV sort of.  Where I struggle is that somehow, there is something specific to religion that would make a person be "bad" that nothing else would.  I may be cynical in thinking this, but I believe bad people are just bad by nature.  Their motive to exist is so they can be bad, hold power over and want to dominate others.  Whether this is learned or part of their physical make up isn't really clear to me, so I struggle pointing to any specific worldly influence and saying THAT is what makes them bad.  Hopefully, I am making sense, but maybe not.

 

[Buttonhook]

I get this POV sort of.  Where I struggle is that somehow, there is something specific to religion that would make a person be "bad" that nothing else would.  I may be cynical in thinking this, but I believe bad people are just bad by nature.  Their motive to exist is so they can be bad, hold power over and want to dominate others.  Whether this is learned or part of their physical make up isn't really clear to me, so I struggle pointing to any specific worldly influence and saying THAT is what makes them bad.  Hopefully, I am making sense, but maybe not.

I don't think it's human nature for the majority of individual people to be aggressive and start wars.  It's the brain-washing and people's fear of not complying with the masses that often forces them to do something "bad" that may not come naturally.  Religion skews people's perception of others by creating another level of separation within societies and it generates an "us-against-them" mentality.     

 

[mquinnjr]

Helping those who are less fortunate than you

I share this sentiment. A good work doesn't have to be driven by a religious organization. It's not right if it does, or wrong if it doesn't. It is recognition by the individual that it is good to give back and help those less fortunate than the charitable contributor, be it time and/or money. What being a good person for the betterment of humanity (without a requirement for religious motivation) is all about.

 

[The Commish]

I don't think it's human nature for the majority of individual people to be aggressive and start wars.  It's the brain-washing and people's fear of not complying with the masses that often forces them to do something "bad" that may not come naturally.  Religion skews people's perception of others by creating another level of separation within societies and it generates an "us-against-them" mentality.     

Ok....but this response is about brain-washing....using religion to brain-wash someone....again, it's a tool.  And I don't disagree that people do use it as a tool.  I am asserting that if the desire is to brain-wash and you take the tool of religion away, they'll use another tool, like politics or gender shaming, or race wars etc.  

Lots of things can be used to skew a person's perception of others.  That's not unique to religion, so I struggle to see how if one removes religion, those on the quest to brain-wash won't simply find something else to use.

 

[Politician Spock]

There are plenty of bad people doing bad things without religion as a reason, but there's also millions of people trying to do harm to other people specifically in the name of religion, and I'm not convinced these same groups of people would have the same motivation if they didn't firmly believe they were "doing God's work" by eradicating others who don't believe in their religion.

I agree with Commish. The issues in the middle east have far more to do with people fighting for land their families have been pushed off of than it does religious extremism. The Ottoman Empire existed for centuries as a beacon of Islam. While it had it's issues, the current USA "empire" is far more violent than they were. So despite many people claiming how violent Islam is, history doesn't support that claim. In fact, Christianity's history is pretty violent, despite how peaceful it seems today.

I think if religion was gone, Palestinians would still be pissed by the "western" occupation of their land. I say "western" as Israel is a "religious" nation, but I think they would continue to occupy Palestinian land simply due to the belief that it was theirs before it become owned by Palestinians. In short, yes Commish is correct that the area would still be a cluster #### even without religion. 

 

[-OZ-]

Charity, with a little personal fun.

With religious undertones but not really.

http://fundraising.stjude.org/site/TR?px=4957861&pg=personal&fr_id=75946

 

[Buttonhook]

I agree with Commish. The issues in the middle east have far more to do with people fighting for land their families have been pushed off of than it does religious extremism. The Ottoman Empire existed for centuries as a beacon of Islam. While it had it's issues, the current USA "empire" is far more violent than they were. So despite many people claiming how violent Islam is, history doesn't support that claim. In fact, Christianity's history is pretty violent, despite how peaceful it seems today.

I think if religion was gone, Palestinians would still be pissed by the "western" occupation of their land. I say "western" as Israel is a "religious" nation, but I think they would continue to occupy Palestinian land simply due to the belief that it was theirs before it become owned by Palestinians. In short, yes Commish is correct that the area would still be a cluster #### even without religion. 

Fair enough, I appreciate your thoughts.  What about the Protestant-Catholic battles?  You think those drunk Irish guys would still find a reason to fight? (I think I know the answer to this one...)

 

[Politician Spock]

Fair enough, I appreciate your thoughts.  What about the Protestant-Catholic battles?  You think those drunk Irish guys would still find a reason to fight? (I think I know the answer to this one...)

Since the pope stopped saying that protestants are going to hell, those battles aren't what they used to be. Which is evidence that as Commish says, religion is just used for different agendas. At first the popes didn't like not having power over protestants. But eventually they got used to it.  

 

[CowboysFromHell]

Wanted to get some feedback and opinion here.

Saw this article the other day and thought it was awesome and interesting. 

It's an Athiest group in Austin working together helping Homeless Folks. I don't know anymore than what I'm reading in the article but apparently it's a big project and they've been doing it for 8 years. That's awesome. 

My question - There is sometimes a religious component of charity. A church operates a soup kitchen or synagogue does a shelter or mosque organizes a food bank. That kind of thing. Most religions have some component of caring for others, especially those in need.

Others like this group in Austin, obviously don't have a religious component. Groups like the Peace Corps don't either (or at least I don't think they do.)

For the non religious groups doing charitable stuff (and there are a lot), what do you think is the motivation? I'd love to hear from you if you've personally done this type of stuff. But even if you haven't, if you have an opinion on it, I'd love to hear.

And this isn't any right or wrong answer. I'm only asking for opinions on it. Thanks.

For me personally, I was raised a Christian, and did lots of charity work as a young man.  When I became an atheist 20+ years ago, my worldview obviously underwent a dramatic shift, but I never lost that desire to help others.  I now see this life for what it is:  a very small blip in the history of time and the vastness of a cold, uncaring universe.  With that perspective, I realize just how precious our lives are and that they are all we have.  There is nothing after we die.  So, I focus on my time here and now and make the very most of it.  This also gives me a sense of brotherhood with all humans, all animals on this pale blue dot we call Earth.  We're all in this together and we all want basically the same things out of life.  I feel like everyone should have a fair go at it, and obviously not everyone does.  So, let's help those along that got a raw deal based on when/where they were randomly born into this thing.  What each of us does with it beyond that is up to him/her.