RBM
Footballguy
Really? Because Im terrified about the D. Nothing annoys me more than a qb just sitting back and having his way with us and I think that happens too often.
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Chicago Bears 2012 Offseason Thread (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter benson_will_lead_the_way
- Start date
The Tick
Footballguy
Exactly. If we do what stat suggested and go WR/OL first two picks, I just have visions of Rodgers and Stafford being able to sit up there and wait for someone to get open. Peppers is great, but really needs some help on the other side.I actually really liked RBM's shark pool draft. I like the pass rusher in the first followed up by a guard. I know guard isn't our BIGGEST OL need, but since we don't need a RT, when we don't get one of the maybe 2 immediate start LT's, guard may be the place we can get a ready to start upgrade in the second. He then got a WR in the third, where I think there were some pretty decent guys sitting around that could be a 2/3 option with Bennett.
Statcruncher
Footballguy
Great points, but no matter who you have rushing those guys you are going to get burnt eventually. If Chicago can't consistently put points on the board chances are they're going nowhere.My nightmare is Chicago being inept offensively. A porous o-line that doesn't give Cutler time to go through his progressions because Marshall is double/triple covered doesn't sound good to me. Marshall's addition is only effective if the Bears can punish defenses who sellout to remove him from Chicago's gameplan, right now Chicago doesn't have a healthy WR on the roster who can do that. Conversely, a Chicago offense that can reliably get TD's on the board and let the defense play with a lead can help force opposing offenses to become one-dimensional. Regardless I've never been more interested in a draft. I'm a homer but I truly think with a solid draft the Bears are legitimate contenders.
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KCitons
Footballguy
I've already put my thoughts on record. I don't see them taking Offensive players with the 1st two picks. They have done nothing to help the defense this offseason. So, I still say DE/DT at #19 and DB at #50. The 3rd round may bring an OL, but I am skeptical.
As a Defensive minded coach, I don't see Lovie sitting back and watching while Emery spends Free Agent money on a backup QB, a #2 RB, and two special teams WR's. And also spend the first 2 draft picks on more offensive players.
The only outside help added on defense was Kelvin Hayden (how does he offset the loss of Graham and Bowman?) Granted, they resigned Izzy and Steltz.
As a Defensive minded coach, I don't see Lovie sitting back and watching while Emery spends Free Agent money on a backup QB, a #2 RB, and two special teams WR's. And also spend the first 2 draft picks on more offensive players.
The only outside help added on defense was Kelvin Hayden (how does he offset the loss of Graham and Bowman?) Granted, they resigned Izzy and Steltz.
mlball77
Footballguy
Yeah, I'm starting to see things your way a bit regarding the draft. I do think OL should be addressed, but it doesn't seem likely anymore (based on what we've seen thus far and comments from Lovie etc.). Part of me would like to see more help at WR, but it isn't a glaring need any longer. Marshall, Bennett, Hester, Sanzenbacher, D Thomas, E Weems and hopefully J Knox... make up a decent group at least. Decent is a vast improvement at WR.
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flapgreen
Footballguy
It's not that I'm not worried about the D at all, but I'm much more worried about Jay. Even as the defense has aged, they're still in top half of the league. For the O, that's another story. If we continue to let Jay get hammered, improving the D won't mean much. My opinion is to focus more in OL and wr position this season, and on D more next season. Of course, I'm fairly certain it will be the opposite. It's the Lovie way. I hope Emery forces him to take a closer look at the O, but I don't think he's in a position to do that, yet. He will give Lovie the players he wants this season.
I don't think the issue with the offense is nearly so much scoring points (they were top 10 in points before Cutler and Forte got hurt if I remember correctly), especially because their defense and ST contribute to scoring more than other teams- that's not really the problem. Keeping your quarterbacks from turning the ball over and getting hurt is the issue.
The Bears mediocre offensive lines go back longer than Martz or Cutler- you can go back 10 years and see the misses with high draft picks and the resulting carousel of quarterbacks. You just don't see that with franchises that value the health of the QB- Brady and Manning's injuries were the exceptions to the rules of their careers. Its a remarkable event if a Bears QB survives a season without missing time or seeing the IR. Its well and good to have an experience backup QB, but if you wanted Jason Campbell to take you into the playoffs you should have fired Cutler and paid Campbell a fraction of his money... assuming both don't get hurt in succession. Meanwhile you've got Packer and Colts and Patriots and Saints backup QBs whose names nobody ever hears of, year after year. Something is demonstrably not right about the Bears approach.
The Bears mediocre offensive lines go back longer than Martz or Cutler- you can go back 10 years and see the misses with high draft picks and the resulting carousel of quarterbacks. You just don't see that with franchises that value the health of the QB- Brady and Manning's injuries were the exceptions to the rules of their careers. Its a remarkable event if a Bears QB survives a season without missing time or seeing the IR. Its well and good to have an experience backup QB, but if you wanted Jason Campbell to take you into the playoffs you should have fired Cutler and paid Campbell a fraction of his money... assuming both don't get hurt in succession. Meanwhile you've got Packer and Colts and Patriots and Saints backup QBs whose names nobody ever hears of, year after year. Something is demonstrably not right about the Bears approach.
KCitons
Footballguy
The one thing that I always want to see with any NFL team is the ability to let the draft come to you. I can see the signing of Marshall as being a definite bonus and it eliminates having to move up in the draft to take Floyd (if the Bears were worried he wouldn't make it to them) It also protects us against reaching for someone at #19, such as Hill.
My concerns will be how the draft unfolds in the first 18 picks and that it could make the Bears War Room reach for need, instead of making a choice of best player available. I still believe, if the Bears would have signed some OL help, like Winston, it would have made drafting an OL much less urgent. At this point the best we can hope is that one of the top 2 OL drops to #19. If not, do you move back in the draft if your desire is to take an OL first? If so, then you would be getting a lesser talent.
I see there being a plethora of DE/DT/DB talent sitting there at #19. I also see 2-3 OL gone, Floyd and possibly K Wright gone. If you have positioned your team correctly through Free Agency, you should be able to dictate best player in the draft for you. I'm not sure the Bears have done this.
My concerns will be how the draft unfolds in the first 18 picks and that it could make the Bears War Room reach for need, instead of making a choice of best player available. I still believe, if the Bears would have signed some OL help, like Winston, it would have made drafting an OL much less urgent. At this point the best we can hope is that one of the top 2 OL drops to #19. If not, do you move back in the draft if your desire is to take an OL first? If so, then you would be getting a lesser talent.
I see there being a plethora of DE/DT/DB talent sitting there at #19. I also see 2-3 OL gone, Floyd and possibly K Wright gone. If you have positioned your team correctly through Free Agency, you should be able to dictate best player in the draft for you. I'm not sure the Bears have done this.
The Tick
Footballguy
I am more worried about the limited window we have left with our D and getting immediate impact players that are going to give us the best shot of making some type of run before we need to completely start our defense over.I know we need to protect Jay better, but if there isn't an immediate starter at #19, Kalil, Decastro, maybe Reiff, we just can't reach because we need to protect Jay better. We reach and get a guy who will be a good tackle in a year or two, we missed that window. If it's not an immediate impact and improvement over what we have, I don't think we can pull the trigger. And I’ll say, year’s one and two, I don’t think that Stanford guy will be THAT much better than Webb to justify spending our first round pick on him.'flapgreen said:
Same at WR right, if Floyd is still there, I think that's an immediate impact player and I’d be happy to take him. Any WR after that, I think is more of a guy who will help in a year or two.
I keep pumping up DE because I think we will be able to find that impact pass rusher still there at 19 that will be able to start and be a major improvement over Idonije. Same thing at CB, but I think DL is a larger need for how we play our defense.
KCitons
Footballguy
Impact now is why you would add a player through free agency. Winston wasn't cut because he was a bad player, he was a cap casualty. I think we missed the boat with him.
The Tick
Footballguy
Would have loved to have picked up some OL help in FA. I can't think of a single reason why they didn't at least get something. I also disagree, the first round as much about teams trying to get immediate starters to close gaps on their team as it is to build up future starters. Later rounds, not so much, you know there are more developmental guys there, but a good portion of the time in Rd1 you are looking for the start now impact guy.
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flapgreen
Footballguy
I don't always see it that way. I think the Giants knew JPP wasn't going to make an immediate impact in his first season. Look at him now. Kiper and all of the talking heads said the Giants drafted him too high. Every player, even in the first round, isn't going to make an immediate impact. I think it's short-sighted to only draft guys with that line of thinking. What if it's a guy you expect to be a future star but will be gone by the time you draft in the second? What if we draft 20th again next year and the top two OL are gone by 20? Wait another year until our draft spot matches up with the player we want. If you think a player will be a future star, whether in that year or the next, you take him. Screw draft position if he's the guy you want and he won't be there for your next pick. The Giants took that approach with JPP. If they think Glenn or Martin will be an elite player, they should take him. Emery says he wants to build the team through the draft. Tice and Lovie like our ####ty ### players on the OL that every else in the league laughs at. I don't see the writers and reporters constantly asking Lovie about the defense. It's always about the OL. There's a reason for that. They freaking suck. I know I know. I've said it a thousand times. They suck! They suck! They suck!!! If we go through the offseason without addressing the pitiful OL while we had the cap space to do something about it, someone is going to get fired. A lot of teams like their ####### players, Lovie. It doesn't mean they don't go out and try to get better ones, you goof! See Green Bay.I also don't fall into the line of thinking that we couldn't draft anyone at 19 that would be better than Webb or some of the other turds on the OL. You kidding me? This must be the worst draft for OL in the history of the freaking NFL! Even a younger guy that has to develop for a couple years, as most do, they're already better than the trash heap we have currently. Most of the current guys are either getting older or have little potential or athletic ability to start with. Is Chris Spencer even starting next season? We're paying him 3 freaking million. With our cap space, this was the year to go out and get a guy like Grubbs, Nicks or Winston. Did we? Of course not. We like our players.
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KCitons
Footballguy
I can agree that the first round is about finding immediate impact players (the salary alone warrants this type of thinking) My concern is that the players available will not fit the immediate needs that the Bears have (specifically the offensive line) My other concern is that not every player is going to become a serviceable player in the NFL. Because of this, I would have expected the Bears to add through Free Agency. It has been obvious that past drafts were not very kind to the Bears. A good reason why we acquired our QB and now a #1 WR through trades. In order of the next best players on the roster came through the draft (Forte, Urlacher) and through FA (Peppers)When you think about the number of players that are available Free Agents may come with a little higher price, but at least you have an NFL resume. Maybe, things will finally be better with Emery leading the way in this draft. But, the window is closing quickly.
flapgreen
Footballguy
The rookie wage scale makes first round salaries pretty inconsequential at this point. That's why the Rams got so much for their 2nd pick. A couple years ago, you could barely give away a top 5 pick. I'm not saying it decreases their importance, but not in the way it once did.
Now, we have extra cap space but not much else to spend it on. Even after the rookie salaries, we would've still had enough to sign Grubbs or Winston, and a mid-range DE or Okoye. Those guys are long gone now. People can spin it however they like, but at the end of the day, we had the money to sign quality starters on DL and OL and didn't. Emery can't be that dumb. I have no doubt that some of what was done or not done came from higher up. Remember George's "Money us no object" speech before free agency? Tricked us again, McCaskey's!
Now, we have extra cap space but not much else to spend it on. Even after the rookie salaries, we would've still had enough to sign Grubbs or Winston, and a mid-range DE or Okoye. Those guys are long gone now. People can spin it however they like, but at the end of the day, we had the money to sign quality starters on DL and OL and didn't. Emery can't be that dumb. I have no doubt that some of what was done or not done came from higher up. Remember George's "Money us no object" speech before free agency? Tricked us again, McCaskey's!
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flapgreen
Footballguy
To paraphrase Lovie from a couple weeks ago, bringing in another LT would make it appear we aren't comfortable with J'Marcus at LT, which we are. #knowsthings
The Tick
Footballguy
Seriously, just bring someone in, and if Webb can beat him out, great, we have an experienced backup ready to step in if anything goes wrong. WE ONLY HAVE TWO TACKLES ON THE ROSTER!!! Maybe Flap is going to get his way and come hell or high water they are drafting a LT at 19. There's got to be a plan in there somewhere. I hope.'flapgreen said:
RBM
Footballguy
Statcruncher
Footballguy
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Statcruncher
Footballguy
Good, it will be nice to not hear him whining about salary.
Statcruncher
Footballguy
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The Tick
Footballguy
No f-ing kidding. Love what Briggs brings on the field, but man, I don't think I've ever heard many in the league complain so much about contracts year after year. On the positive side, I was always impressed how he would put the complaing away when the season would come around and not let it effect his play. He really kept it in the offseason from what I can mainly remember and I always respected that.I bet this just keeps pissing off Forte. Not saying it should, but I bet seeing his teammates getting extensions when he doesn't feel they are offering him a fair contract has got to bug him.
KCitons
Footballguy
OK, just trying to look at this from all sides.
Any chance the Bears stand pat with their offer to Forte. Draft a RB in Round 2 or 3. (maybe D Martin, L Miller) At that point, you still have a one-two punch with Bush and a young back. (and at a much cheaper overall cost.
I love Forte. (in fact he is the 2nd highest paid player on my fantasy team) But, when I look at this situation long term, do I really want to have my 26 and a 28 year old RB's signed to long term deals? It makes sense that the Bears want to franchise Forte for one more year and then grab a young back in the draft next year. With the devaluing of RB's, there will be a lot of talent in the 2-5th rounds
Any chance the Bears stand pat with their offer to Forte. Draft a RB in Round 2 or 3. (maybe D Martin, L Miller) At that point, you still have a one-two punch with Bush and a young back. (and at a much cheaper overall cost.
I love Forte. (in fact he is the 2nd highest paid player on my fantasy team) But, when I look at this situation long term, do I really want to have my 26 and a 28 year old RB's signed to long term deals? It makes sense that the Bears want to franchise Forte for one more year and then grab a young back in the draft next year. With the devaluing of RB's, there will be a lot of talent in the 2-5th rounds
RBM
Footballguy
This pisses me off and smacks as cheap and low class. Forte has been a great soldier and deserves his reward. We dont need to be adding to our needs either. We have a stud rb, we dont need to be wasting a valuable pick on the same position because we want to be cheap swindlers.
KCitons
Footballguy
Without knowing what the Bears have offered, its hard to determine who is being cheap and who is asking for too much.
Again, just looking at it from all angles. How much becomes, too much for Forte? Especially when every other team is devaluing RB's in both FA and the draft.
It comes down to Dollars and Sense.
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The Tick
Footballguy
The more I think about this, the more I think that the fans may be the only ones really worried at this point. We have offered him a contract most likely somewhere north of 14mil guaranteed. He wants more, so he's not planning on coming around. Fine, he's a vet, he will be in shape when things work out. There really isn't a rush and I think both sides are just playing chicken to see what will happen first, either the bears up their offer, or Forte lowers his we meet. It's way too early in negotiation time to think that either camp has put forward their absolute final offer.My current guess is it happens 1 week into training camp Forte comes in, and has another good year. That's plenty of time to get him up to speed, and it gives Bush a good chance to work with the first team and be ready to play.All along the Bears have done a good job handling Briggs and his contract issues and I think the same will work out with Forte. I guess I could be wrong, but I think the fans are most likely the only ones thinking things that we are down to panic time.
Statcruncher
Footballguy
It's hard to tell who's side to be on because we don't know what numbers are being thrown around. IMO Forte has earned a payday and if the Bears value loyalty at all they'll give him a decent contract. I don't think a 4 year or possibly a 5 year deal is out of bounds. They just signed an older Bush to a 4 year contract so they kinda shot the age excuse out from underneath themselves. I'm guessing the guaranteed money is the issue, and it's impossible to evaluate unless you have the contract length, base salary, and bonuses to factor in as well. Regardless, I hope they get Forte back in the fold unless he's asking for completely stupid money.
The Tick
Footballguy
I'm not sure if right now Forte would sign the Lynch deal... it sounds like he is asking for much more at this point. Come training camp, unless one side breaks before then, I think he will sign for something pretty close to that contract. Which I don't think was too bad.
KCitons
Footballguy
thats the problem with NFL salaries. Teams are going to use players that have under performed since receiving big paydays and players are going to site lesser quality players getting big pay days.
Obviously, both sides think that they are correct. I agree, there is a lot of time for this game of Chicken to play out. My opinion, is that Forte is not one to sit out an entire season.
With that said, the Bears would have no choice but to roll with Bush/Bell if Forte decides to hold out. At that point, the draft is a distant memory. The window of "championship" is still closing and you are another year older.
By being proactive, you draft a RB this year. Knowing that you have Bush signed for 4 years. You instantly become younger and cheaper at the RB position. You then trade Forte for whatever you can get. (If you are not going to pay him what he wants, tell him to find another team that will) You would then be able to spend some of the savings from Forte on other areas.
It's sad. I can't believe I'm saying it, but it's best for the Bears to cut ties with Forte?
Obviously, both sides think that they are correct. I agree, there is a lot of time for this game of Chicken to play out. My opinion, is that Forte is not one to sit out an entire season.
With that said, the Bears would have no choice but to roll with Bush/Bell if Forte decides to hold out. At that point, the draft is a distant memory. The window of "championship" is still closing and you are another year older.
By being proactive, you draft a RB this year. Knowing that you have Bush signed for 4 years. You instantly become younger and cheaper at the RB position. You then trade Forte for whatever you can get. (If you are not going to pay him what he wants, tell him to find another team that will) You would then be able to spend some of the savings from Forte on other areas.
It's sad. I can't believe I'm saying it, but it's best for the Bears to cut ties with Forte?
The Tick
Footballguy
At this point, not at all. No matter how "pissed" Forte sounds, I still think it is likely that this all gets worked out in plenty of time. There was a time when I didn't see how Briggs would play for the Bears again, but then today he's talking about how he never wanted to go anywhere else and is happy that he will be ending his career as a Bear.
They just need to work though this contract and Forte will be ready to go. If there really was a true impasse, I think there would be more trade rumors out there, because if the Bears didn't think they were going to be able to work something out, they would have to try and make a trade.
If things do fall apart, I think Bush, Bell, and a FA RB as a backup would still be a better option than spending a high round pick on a RB.
They just need to work though this contract and Forte will be ready to go. If there really was a true impasse, I think there would be more trade rumors out there, because if the Bears didn't think they were going to be able to work something out, they would have to try and make a trade.
If things do fall apart, I think Bush, Bell, and a FA RB as a backup would still be a better option than spending a high round pick on a RB.
Statcruncher
Footballguy
For some perspective on what Forte brings to the table I thought I'd dig around and see how replaceable/irreplaceable he really is. On a team where Walter Payton and Gale Sayers played their entire careers, some of Forte's accomplishments are impressive:
Chicago Bear Rookie Records:
Most rushing attempts: 316
Most rushing yards: 1,238
Most receptions: 63
Most yards from scrimmage: 1,715
Chicago Bear Team Records:
Most receptions by a RB: 63
Most receptions in a playoff game: 10
First RB in franchise history to have 4 consecutive seasons of 50+ receptions
First player in franchise history with at least 1,400 scrimmage yards in his first 4 NFL seasons
Other Notables:
Joins Edgerrin James as the only rookie players in NFL history to rush for over 1,000 yards and post more than 60 catches
Joins Hershel Walker as the only players in NFL history to rush for over 700 rushing yards and have 400 receiving yards in each of their first 4 seasons
Check out some highlights but prepare to mute the music. The ridiculous slide then cut at 56 seconds required several views.
Chicago Bear Rookie Records:
Most rushing attempts: 316
Most rushing yards: 1,238
Most receptions: 63
Most yards from scrimmage: 1,715
Chicago Bear Team Records:
Most receptions by a RB: 63
Most receptions in a playoff game: 10
First RB in franchise history to have 4 consecutive seasons of 50+ receptions
First player in franchise history with at least 1,400 scrimmage yards in his first 4 NFL seasons
Other Notables:
Joins Edgerrin James as the only rookie players in NFL history to rush for over 1,000 yards and post more than 60 catches
Joins Hershel Walker as the only players in NFL history to rush for over 700 rushing yards and have 400 receiving yards in each of their first 4 seasons
Check out some highlights but prepare to mute the music. The ridiculous slide then cut at 56 seconds required several views.
So if Lynch got paid a billion dollars, Forte should expect a billion +1? Why should the Bears allow another teams terrible salary management affect their own? You don't give a contract for a guy based on what he's done, you offer it to him based on what you expect him to do and what the market value of that means. The Bears are right not to overpay a running back in today's NFL. When was the last time a team with a top paid RB won a superbowl? Ahmad Bradshaw is making 4.5 million this year and Jacobs walked to play backup on another team (maybe). Green Bay doesn't even really have a RB1, their fullback is their top paid back. The Saints pay 4 running backs, not one. Do the Steelers or the Colts or the Patriots pay top dollar for a RB? Nuh uh. Those 6 teams account for 13 out of 18 Superbowl appearances in the last 9 seasons.Now lets look at the teams with the six highest paid backs- Minnesota, Oakland, Tennessee, Houston, Carolina, Seattle...Now which list do you figure knows what the hell its doing?
flapgreen
Footballguy
Agree completely.
DoubleG
Footballguy
The
smiley aint enough. HELL YEAH!I knew someone would come up with the "he should at least make as much as Lynch" "reasoning". 
and again The Bears should NOT EVER emulate the Seahawks. How many Superbowls have the Seahawks won? That's what percentage of the time the Bears should do anything remotely close to what the Seahawks do - ZERO.
Nike changed the Seahawk unis - everyone loves 'em. Green Bay told Nike "#### off, thanks"
Bad management decisions by one team should not dictate what the Bears do. Lynch got paid stupid money for half of 1 good season. That doesn't make it right, nor does it make it what the Bears should do.
Child, please.
RBM
Footballguy
Are you guys freakin kidding me? He deserves to get paid like the other top rbs who just signed deals are. You think Matt is going to be ok with less than Lynch because the "Seahawks dont know what they are doing"? Are you out of your mind? Thats not how this business works.
If you want to cut him loose and aim to be a high octane passing offense like those other teams mentioned, fine say that...but the other thing is just stupid.
And good luck turning into that high octane passing offense with our line and wrs.
If you want to cut him loose and aim to be a high octane passing offense like those other teams mentioned, fine say that...but the other thing is just stupid.
And good luck turning into that high octane passing offense with our line and wrs.
flapgreen
Footballguy
How soon Bears fans themselves forget what Forte has done and will continue to do for this team. Guy has carried this putrid offense for a few years. He's far from done and deserves to get paid. Cut ties with the guy because his peanuts rookie contract is up and he won't take less than other elite backs? The guy put it all on the line for years and never said a word. Now fans act like he's a whiny ##### and want him to shut up. Talk about no appreciation or recognition of what he has done. Get rid of him and bring in the next elite back! Last I checked, this team revolves around running the ball and Forte is one of the best in the league. Whatever. I'm not even having this ridiculous conversation anymore. If it's one thing I can say about the Bears, it's that they have always taken care of their own.
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RBM
Footballguy
twistd
Footballguy
The other thing to consider is that the RB position has really been devalued. Teams are moving to multiple backs sharing the load. Adding Bush is a way to lessen the load on Forte. It really makes no sense to sign a big money, long term contract with Forte. I think that signing him to a Gore type contract makes sense. But if he is asking for Deangelo Williams type of money, or AP money, it doesn't make any sense. A big part of the problem here is we don't know what the Bears are offering and what Forte is asking. If he is reasonable about his expectations then this is on the Bears. If he is asking for too much, then it is on him. But the days where you signed a workhorse back and counted on him for 350 carries a year are largely gone. The value of RBs around the league reflects that.
RBM
Footballguy
Not true at all. Look at the two big backs that were free agents this year, Lynch and Foster. Both got big deals, and I bet Ray Rice gets a big deal from Baltimore when they figure it out.
Statcruncher
Footballguy
I don't know what's going on, but Flapgreen has been making sense lately.
KCitons
Footballguy
I will add one more team to your list. The Ravens? Probably the one team that you could argue mirrors the Bears. A run first offense, strong defense and a passing game that has had some struggles. You also have a RB (Rice) that has been a large part of the offense over the past few years. The Ravens and Rice are in the same situation as the Bears and Forte. Most will say Rice is a better back than Forte. But the landscape of the NFL today shows that putting too much of your cap space into one player at the RB position is not a formula to win. Should Forte get paid the same as Rice?I already stated that I am a fan of Forte and what he has done for this team. But, I keep reading comments from fans that we should pay Forte. How much should we pay him? Whatever he wants? What do you think the reaction would be if the Bears announced they signed Forte to a 7 year $100 million deal? After all ADP was 26 years old last year when the Vikings inked that deal, Forte is the same age now.And wtf do the Saints, Pats, Steelers and Green Bay have to do with the Bears? Completely different offenses. You can win with either if you are good on both sides.
Fact remains, we don't know what Forte is asking and what the Bears are offering. I was just looking at it from a Business side. (I know, not all fans can do this) The only rumors we have is that the Bears offered Forte a 4yr/$26 million contract (similar to Gores) Sure there will be guaranteed money up front. But, that breaks down to just over $6 million per year. Didn't the Bears just sign an older Michael Bush to 2yr/$14 million contract? That's $7 million per year. (Bush is making over $7 million guaranteed in 2012) So, we know that the Gore contract should not be enough to satisfy Forte.
We also know the Panther's signed a 28 year old DeAngelo Williams to a 5yr/$43 million contract. DWill has shared the backfield with JStew for the past 4 years. Forte and Williams have similar stat lines for their careers, Except Forte has done the same with 2 less years. Williams is getting paid $8.6 million per year on average. (and he is 2 years older than Forte, and in a RBBC)
This brings us to Lynch's deal. When you compare the career stat lines, Forte again comes out on top. And he did it in 4 years as compared to Lynch's 5 years. (granted Lynch has never been the Bell Cow in an offense) But, Lynch is the same age as Forte and he was awarded a 4yr/$31 million contract. The contract is back loaded, and I'm not sure Lynch will see all of the money in 2014 or 2015, but it still averages out to around $7.5 million per year.
So here is your scale of comparison:
Gore (28 years old) 4yr/$26 million ($6.5 mil avg)
DWill (28 years old) 5yr/$43 million ($8.6 mil avg)
Lynch (26 years old) 4yr/$31 million ($7.75 mil avg)
M Bush (28 years old) 2yr/$14 million ($7 mil avg)
ADP (26 years old) 7yr/$100 million ($14.2 mil avg)
Where do you put Forte? Can you really offer him Gore money, when you just signed your #2 RB to a $7 million per year contract? How many people have already said that M Lynch's contract was too much? really? It's only $750k per year more than you are paying Bush?
So, now we are looking at DWill money. Is Forte worth $8.6 million per year? Is he better than DWill? Does he deserve more than $8.6 per year? If he is then he has to fall between DWill and ADP money? $10-$11 million per year?
Is there a fan out there that would be happy with $18 million per year wrapped up in your RB position? You can't have it both ways. If you truly believe that Forte should be paid what he is due (or worth), then you have to be willing to swallow these numbers for the next 5 years.
This is the only reason why I brought up the point about letting Forte walk. Even if the Bears want to pay him, is it the best choice for the team?
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The Tick
Footballguy
I belevie Bush was signed to a 4 year $14 mil contract, so that shifts your numbers off a bit.I will add one more team to your list. The Ravens? Probably the one team that you could argue mirrors the Bears. A run first offense, strong defense and a passing game that has had some struggles. You also have a RB (Rice) that has been a large part of the offense over the past few years. The Ravens and Rice are in the same situation as the Bears and Forte. Most will say Rice is a better back than Forte. But the landscape of the NFL today shows that putting too much of your cap space into one player at the RB position is not a formula to win. Should Forte get paid the same as Rice?I already stated that I am a fan of Forte and what he has done for this team. But, I keep reading comments from fans that we should pay Forte. How much should we pay him? Whatever he wants? What do you think the reaction would be if the Bears announced they signed Forte to a 7 year $100 million deal? After all ADP was 26 years old last year when the Vikings inked that deal, Forte is the same age now.Fact remains, we don't know what Forte is asking and what the Bears are offering. I was just looking at it from a Business side. (I know, not all fans can do this) The only rumors we have is that the Bears offered Forte a 4yr/$26 million contract (similar to Gores) Sure there will be guaranteed money up front. But, that breaks down to just over $6 million per year. Didn't the Bears just sign an older Michael Bush to 2yr/$14 million contract? That's $7 million per year. So, we know that the Gore contract should not be enough to satisfy Forte.We also know the Panther's signed a 28 year old DeAngelo Williams to a 5yr/$43 million contract. DWill has shared the backfield with JStew for the past 4 years. Forte and Williams have similar stat lines for their careers, Except Forte has done the same with 2 less years. Williams is getting paid $8.6 million per year on average. (and he is 2 years older than Forte, and in a RBBC)This brings us to Lynch's deal. When you compare the career stat lines, Forte again comes out on top. And he did it in 4 years as compared to Lynch's 5 years. (granted Lynch has never been the Bell Cow in an offense) But, Lynch is the same age as Forte and he was awarded a 4yr/$31 million contract. The contract is back loaded, and I'm not sure Lynch will see all of the money in 2014 or 2015, but it still averages out to around $7.5 million per year.So here is your scale of comparison:Gore (28 years old) 4yr/$26 million ($6.5 mil avg)DWill (28 years old) 5yr/$43 million ($8.6 mil avg)Lynch (26 years old) 4yr/$31 million ($7.75 mil avg)M Bush (28 years old) 2yr/$14 million ($7 mil avg)ADP (26 years old) 7yr/$100 million ($14.2 mil avg)Where do you put Forte? Can you really offer him Gore money, when you just signed your #2 RB to a $7 million per year contract? How many people have already said that M Lynch's contract was too much? really? It's only $750k per year more than you are paying Bush? So, now we are looking at DWill money. Is Forte worth $8.6 million per year? Is he better than DWill? Does he deserve more than $8.6 per year? If he is then he has to fall between DWill and ADP money? $10-$11 million per year? Is there a fan out there that would be happy with $18 million per year wrapped up in your RB position? You can't have it both ways. If you truly believe that Forte should be paid what he is due (or worth), then you have to be willing to swallow these numbers for the next 5 years. This is the only reason why I brought up the point about letting Forte walk. Even if the Bears want to pay him, is it the best choice for the team?And wtf do the Saints, Pats, Steelers and Green Bay have to do with the Bears? Completely different offenses. You can win with either if you are good on both sides.
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flapgreen
Footballguy
Right. It's difficult to make a judgement without knowing the contract offer, but if I had to guess, Forte isn't asking for anything near ADP money. Of course that's just my opinion. He's never seemed like the greedy type.
However, this team will be much worse off without him. I like Bush, but he isn't Forte. If he's asking for anything in the ballpark of reasonable, you pay him. Without Forte, we have one weapon on offense in Marshall. We're not New England or Green Bay and I think comparing us those teams does little to prove anything.
However, this team will be much worse off without him. I like Bush, but he isn't Forte. If he's asking for anything in the ballpark of reasonable, you pay him. Without Forte, we have one weapon on offense in Marshall. We're not New England or Green Bay and I think comparing us those teams does little to prove anything.
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KCitons
Footballguy
I went back and marked through my errors on Bush. He is still making over $7 million in 2012. Even if you throw Bush out of the equation, how much do you offer Forte?I belevie Bush was signed to a 4 year $14 mil contract, so that shifts your numbers off a bit.I will add one more team to your list. The Ravens? Probably the one team that you could argue mirrors the Bears. A run first offense, strong defense and a passing game that has had some struggles. You also have a RB (Rice) that has been a large part of the offense over the past few years. The Ravens and Rice are in the same situation as the Bears and Forte. Most will say Rice is a better back than Forte. But the landscape of the NFL today shows that putting too much of your cap space into one player at the RB position is not a formula to win. Should Forte get paid the same as Rice?I already stated that I am a fan of Forte and what he has done for this team. But, I keep reading comments from fans that we should pay Forte. How much should we pay him? Whatever he wants? What do you think the reaction would be if the Bears announced they signed Forte to a 7 year $100 million deal? After all ADP was 26 years old last year when the Vikings inked that deal, Forte is the same age now.Fact remains, we don't know what Forte is asking and what the Bears are offering. I was just looking at it from a Business side. (I know, not all fans can do this) The only rumors we have is that the Bears offered Forte a 4yr/$26 million contract (similar to Gores) Sure there will be guaranteed money up front. But, that breaks down to just over $6 million per year. Didn't the Bears just sign an older Michael Bush to 2yr/$14 million contract? That's $7 million per year. So, we know that the Gore contract should not be enough to satisfy Forte.We also know the Panther's signed a 28 year old DeAngelo Williams to a 5yr/$43 million contract. DWill has shared the backfield with JStew for the past 4 years. Forte and Williams have similar stat lines for their careers, Except Forte has done the same with 2 less years. Williams is getting paid $8.6 million per year on average. (and he is 2 years older than Forte, and in a RBBC)This brings us to Lynch's deal. When you compare the career stat lines, Forte again comes out on top. And he did it in 4 years as compared to Lynch's 5 years. (granted Lynch has never been the Bell Cow in an offense) But, Lynch is the same age as Forte and he was awarded a 4yr/$31 million contract. The contract is back loaded, and I'm not sure Lynch will see all of the money in 2014 or 2015, but it still averages out to around $7.5 million per year.So here is your scale of comparison:Gore (28 years old) 4yr/$26 million ($6.5 mil avg)DWill (28 years old) 5yr/$43 million ($8.6 mil avg)Lynch (26 years old) 4yr/$31 million ($7.75 mil avg)M Bush (28 years old) 2yr/$14 million ($7 mil avg)ADP (26 years old) 7yr/$100 million ($14.2 mil avg)Where do you put Forte? Can you really offer him Gore money, when you just signed your #2 RB to a $7 million per year contract? How many people have already said that M Lynch's contract was too much? really? It's only $750k per year more than you are paying Bush? So, now we are looking at DWill money. Is Forte worth $8.6 million per year? Is he better than DWill? Does he deserve more than $8.6 per year? If he is then he has to fall between DWill and ADP money? $10-$11 million per year? Is there a fan out there that would be happy with $18 million per year wrapped up in your RB position? You can't have it both ways. If you truly believe that Forte should be paid what he is due (or worth), then you have to be willing to swallow these numbers for the next 5 years. This is the only reason why I brought up the point about letting Forte walk. Even if the Bears want to pay him, is it the best choice for the team?And wtf do the Saints, Pats, Steelers and Green Bay have to do with the Bears? Completely different offenses. You can win with either if you are good on both sides.
