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Chinese warship cuts off US Navy ship, marking 2nd military provocation in week (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Faust
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rockaction
Footballguy
I love when commies and fascists and warlords use international human rights language. Oh, so you know the word hegemony, do you?
rockaction
Footballguy
So far as I know, we’re not trying to annex Mexico or claiming it to be ours. Location ain’t everything. Try again though.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Also, do Chinese naval ships often traverse around the gulf of Mexico? What would be the purpose?
Relatedly, are there any international waters between Florida and Cuba, or are ships not allowed through without permission from one of the 2 governments?
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
China doesn't like us being close to Taiwan, but they can't do anything about it besides pulling little stunts like this. Show of weakness.
kupcho1
Footballguy
Location is extremely important here. This strait is next to China's mainland as well as Taiwan's.
This is analogous to a China Monroe Doctrine (warned European powers not to interfere in the affairs of the Western Hemisphere). It held that "any intervention in the political affairs of the Americas by foreign powers is a potentially hostile act against the United States."
So it is ok if we're doing it. Not so much if another world power doesn't want us interfering. Got it.
kupcho1
Footballguy
Yeah, it is until it isn't.
I don't know why we feel we need to be the world's police force. Bad enough what's happening in Ukraine, do we need another front?
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
This thread has a chance to turn political very quickly.
rockaction
Footballguy
Our actions in the Ukraine are humanitarian and necessary for world order, and a million lamentations cannot make them not so.
rockaction
Footballguy
Desert_Power
Footballguy
The Gulf of Mexico stuff appears to be a rhetorical comment that Bejing frequently makes, although they have been in the Bering Straight.
Doug B
Footballguy
It's more complicated than I thought upon researching this question.
The short answer (not all that short) is that while "international waters" begin 12 miles from a nation's shoreline, there's also a "maritime boundary" that extends out 200 miles. The maritime boundaries are frequently demarcated by treaties or other agreements where the overlaps occur (see world map here* -- zoom in for detail). In the water between Florida and Cuba -- the Florida Straits -- there are rolling 2-year agreements in force while a treaty drafted in 1977 remains unsigned.
Here, I will spitball some:
If a Norweigian cruise ship, or a Bahamian trawler, or a Japanese freighter passes through the Florida Straits and maintains 12+ miles from both shorelines ... I doubt that either the U.S. or Cuba would be particularly troubled (though the Bahamian vessel would need to lift their nets absent express permission to fish).
Now. Were Chinese naval vessels to try the same thing ... I doubt they'd actually be allowed through incommunicado without heavy escort. The U.S. has had naval vessels lawfully deployed in in the Philippines, Korea, and Japan for decades ... so they can kind kind of "pop up" in the international waters off of China without much warning**. The Chinese Navy, by contrast, has no overseas bases. So if their ships set a course from Chinese waters to the Florida Straits, the US Navy would be watching them coming for over two weeks. You can bet that in such a scenario, the US Navy would have a significant "welcoming committee" launched from Norfolk & Mayport (surface) plus New London & Kings Bay (subs). The pilots based out of four naval air stations in Florida -- plus those in Belle Chasse, LA and Corpus Christi, TX -- would start running a bunch of round-the-clock "exercises".
* While that map is titled 'Exclusive Economic Zones', those zones generally coincide with the 200-mi maritime boundaries.
** In practice, China is given advance notice of when US vessels will be passing near their territory.
BroncoFreak_2K3
sucker for Orange
Welcome back Politics Forum!
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Of course it would. "One mega-tonnage warship armed to the teeth cutting off another mega-tonnage warship armed to the teeth in international waters is stupid" should be something everyone can get behind.
Doug B
Footballguy
Without incident, as their vessels will make their course and intentions known to the US (and presumably Russia) ahead of time.
Doug B
Footballguy
Here is the covering international law, ratified in 1994 -- United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea III. Scroll down to the "Territorial Sea" section (it's in plain speak, not legalese, and is brief).
The US and Canadian vessels in the Taiwan Strait were not, so far as I'm aware from reports, violating these terms. Simply "passing through" is not a violation, especially with prior notice. Neither is it a "I'm not touching you" provocation -- China is a party to the treaty, after all.
That said, China has every right to send out de facto escorts and/or observation craft that follow the rules of the maritime road. "Brake-checking" large military vessels, though, is essentially "reckless driving" on the high seas.
The US and Canadian vessels in the Taiwan Strait were not, so far as I'm aware from reports, violating these terms. Simply "passing through" is not a violation, especially with prior notice. Neither is it a "I'm not touching you" provocation -- China is a party to the treaty, after all.
That said, China has every right to send out de facto escorts and/or observation craft that follow the rules of the maritime road. "Brake-checking" large military vessels, though, is essentially "reckless driving" on the high seas.
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Doug B
Footballguy
Here's a brief recap of two nothing-happened incidents off the Alaskan coast. Both Chinese and Russian vessels transit through the US 200-mile exclusive economic zone, as is their right. The US, accordingly and lawfully, sends vessels to "wave hello".
The US Navy & Coast Guard jargon for such encounters is "presence-with-presence".
kupcho1
Footballguy
I broke out your statement into two segments
(1) Here's a nice chart showing just how much humanitarian aid we've given as compared to military. 5% humanitarian = roughly $4B.. That's great, but pales in comparison to military aid (61% or roughly $47B).
(2) OK Officer Rockaction.
We're the world's police force apparently, but a very selective one.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
USS Chung hoon? That’s the name of the American ship? Is this an Austin powers level trick? 
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Who else is going to dissuade China from invading Taiwan? Europe? Ukraine was right on their doorstep and they did nothing.
It would be nice if somebody else would help out from time to time.
Doug B
Footballguy
USS Chung hoon? That’s the name of the American ship? Is this an Austin powers level trick?
Gordon Chung-Hoon - Wikipedia
His namesake destroyer was commissioned in 2004 and normally stationed in Pearl Harbor. The USS Chung-hoon has also been deployed intermittently with the US Navy's Seventh Fleet out of Yokosuka, Japan.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
I googled it as well. Just thought it was funny. My humor is rather juvenileUSS Chung hoon? That’s the name of the American ship? Is this an Austin powers level trick?
Gordon Chung-Hoon - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
His namesake destroyer was commissioned in 2004 and normally stationed in Pearl Harbor. The USS Chung-hoon has also been deployed intermittently with the US Navy's Seventh Fleet out of Yokosuka, Japan.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
I had to read it twice. Thought I had the names reversed.I googled it as well. Just thought it was funny. My humor is rather juvenileUSS Chung hoon? That’s the name of the American ship? Is this an Austin powers level trick?
Gordon Chung-Hoon - Wikipedia
His namesake destroyer was commissioned in 2004 and normally stationed in Pearl Harbor. The USS Chung-hoon has also been deployed intermittently with the US Navy's Seventh Fleet out of Yokosuka, Japan.
Doug B
Footballguy
Admiral Chung-hoon's life story is pretty remarkable. Would make a great movie, though critics would think it was ripping off Forrest Gump a bit. A lot of the same beats.
kupcho1
Footballguy
Can you explain why you feel the US is obligated to do so? Why are we the world police?
We have unresolved issues right here at home. Why are we spending blood and treasure?
You advocate for it in Ukraine. What about Yemen? Sudan? The Sahel?
We need to step up our game as we're doing a pretty crappy job of it.
beer 30
Footballguy
Can you even imagine being an Asian American fighting in the Pacific during WWII? His life story would indeed make a great movie.USS Chung hoon? That’s the name of the American ship? Is this an Austin powers level trick?
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
It definitely feels odd and almost like a trap seeing that a moderator started a thread with a lot of political overtones when this forum has gone out of its way to keep politics out. Luckily the thread hasn’t seemed to have devolved into a political food fight yet, but It’s still early.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I get it, and I don't want to get too deep into this argument. I agree with you (obviously) that the US can't be expected to resolve every conflict all over the world, nor should we aspire to do so.
If Ukraine had been invaded by East Asia, I'd say stay out of it. But Russia is our enemy, and I'm okay with arming Ukraine as a means of making life difficult for Russia.
China is a totalitarian society that wants to impose its vision on a free society (Taiwan). Where possible, I think we should generally support liberal democracies when they are harried by authoritarian countries. South Korea probably doesn't need our help anymore, but I was fine maintaining a presence there to defend them too.
In other words, yes you're right. I'm picking and choosing when to project force based on the countries involved and what I see as our strategic interests. I'm not making any effort to be consistent about defending everybody who might deserve it some philosophical sense.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
The important thing, though, is that China has no ability to project force in the Gulf of Mexico. We, by way of contrast, seem to have half our navy stationed in the South China Sea and they can't do anything about it besides the military equivalent of brake-checking us. What a loser country.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Then again, I don't recall China using cruise missiles to shoot down hobbyist balloons, so I guess there's that.
Dezbelief
Footballguy
If China has their media would be clueless.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
While I’d love to sit some of these conflicts out, history has shown that mad-men like Putin, usually don’t stop after invading one Country.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
While his primary theater of service was Europe, Daniel Inouye was a true Asian-American hero and patriot during WWII.Can you even imagine being an Asian American fighting in the Pacific during WWII? His life story would indeed make a great movie.USS Chung hoon? That’s the name of the American ship? Is this an Austin powers level trick?
- Red Cross volunteer after Pearl Harbor attack
- Denied military service after HS due to being Asian descent
- Eventually allowed to join, received battlefield promotion to lieutenant. Suffered five battlefield wounds on one day and right arm amputated
- Recipient of Medal of Honor, three Purple Hearts and Presidential Medal of Freedom
- First elected member of House from HI and eventually US Senate
- Never lost an election in 58 years
Daniel Inouye - Wikipedia
Stoneworker
Footballguy
China to Establish US Spy Facility off Cuba
China and Cuba have reached a secret agreement for China to establish an electronic eavesdropping facility on the island, in a brash new geopolitical challenge by Beijing to the U.S., according to U.S. officials familiar with highly classified intelligence.
An eavesdropping facility in Cuba, roughly 100 miles from Florida, would allow Chinese intelligence services to scoop up electronic communications throughout the southeastern U.S., where many military bases are located, and monitor U.S. ship traffic.
Officials familiar with the matter said that China has agreed to pay cash-strapped Cuba several billion dollars to allow it to build the eavesdropping station, and that the two countries had reached an agreement in principle.
China and Cuba have reached a secret agreement for China to establish an electronic eavesdropping facility on the island, in a brash new geopolitical challenge by Beijing to the U.S., according to U.S. officials familiar with highly classified intelligence.
An eavesdropping facility in Cuba, roughly 100 miles from Florida, would allow Chinese intelligence services to scoop up electronic communications throughout the southeastern U.S., where many military bases are located, and monitor U.S. ship traffic.
Officials familiar with the matter said that China has agreed to pay cash-strapped Cuba several billion dollars to allow it to build the eavesdropping station, and that the two countries had reached an agreement in principle.
PIK95
Footballguy
I mean, they do it anyway. Now it's just "legal" or whatever. I just assume all the world leaders are listening and reading EVERYTHING that comes across my phone. Oh well. Good for Cuba.
Yet another reason to end the failed 60 year old embargo. Under the Obama policy change, my my friends and coworkers had family who were starting to make $$$ in tourism.
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