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Churches or Houses of Worship being exempt from statewide bannings on mass gatherings. Thoughts? (1 Viewer)

Should churches and other houses of worship be exempt from statewide bannings on mass gatherings?

  • Yes

    Votes: 11 6.1%

  • No

    Votes: 167 92.8%

  • Smoo/don't know/don't care/i like potatoes

    Votes: 2 1.1%
  • Total voters
    180
No.  I'm a big supporter of the first amendment, but the government has a compelling reason for banning public gatherings right now, and there's no good argument for excluding churches.

 
This is real simple - if any group over X people can't get together - book club, therapy groups, boy scouts, @Sheriff Bart's Zumba class, FFB drafts, schools, non-essential jobs - the churches should do the same.  This shouldn't even be a question and they should fine the idiots that are still getting together when they've been instructed not to.

 
AAABatteries said:
This is real simple - if any group over X people can't get together - book club, therapy groups, boy scouts, @Sheriff Bart's Zumba class, FFB drafts, schools, non-essential jobs - the churches should do the same.  This shouldn't even be a question and they should fine the idiots that are still getting together when they've been instructed not to.
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This is still going on. They'll have to pry it from my cold, dead hands. 

 
I’m just glad that’s not NC or SC (Charlotte’s right on the border). Churches can use Zoom if they want.

 
"We want to certainly cooperate and do our best to adhere to what she's asking us to do," Ellis said. "We certainly don't want to be above the system."

This. No one is above the system.

 
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WWJD?

He provided us with a relevant example

SAFETY:


Luke 4:9-12

"And he led Him to Jerusalem and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here; 10 for it is written, 'HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU TO GUARD YOU,' 11 and, 'ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.' " 12 And Jesus answered and said to him, "It is said, 'you shall not put the Lord your God to the test.' "

(Satan quoted Psalm 91:11-12 and Jesus quoted Deut. 6:16)
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I think I’ll always remember March 11 as the day things got real.

• During the day, the WHO (finally) declared a global pandemic.

• At 9pm, President Trumped addressed the nation (only his second prime time national address.) It ran about 9-1/2 minutes.

• At approximately 9:20, we learned Tom & Rita Wilson had tested positive for Covid-19 in Australia.

• At 9:30, the Utah Jazz and Oklahoma City Thunder were pulled off the court. Shortly thereafter, it was announced Rudy Gobert tested positive for the coronavirus & the NBA was suspending its season.

Despite all that, most people continued their lives business as usual (though many would be WFH by the following week.) The guidance then was no gatherings above 500 or 250, NYS Pause wasn’t put into effect until March 20th.

Our Manhattan based church - with 10K members and another 7.5K at campuses in NJ, CT, & Boston - announced we would hold online services for the first time in our 8-1/2 year history.

We rented a small tv studio in northern NJ. Normally, Sundays in NYC would require 1,000 volunteers to serve the 10,500 (3.5K x 3) congregants. We went with a skeleton crew of 80 and limited the parishioners to 120: pastors, church staff, interns & lay leaders. This was shot on Friday night & broadcast on 3/15.

Over the last two weeks, we’ve had a cluster of folks get sick. During a Zoom meeting of 300+ (Team Rally) yesterday morning, it was estimated we have about 25 positive cases. At least 20 of those are people who symptomatic but were never tested - around half of the unconfirmed cases went to the ER, received a triage diagnosis, and were sent home.

Thankfully, we have a very young church; none of the cases so far have required hospitalization, no one is in an ICU. Oldest is 40. We have a lot of folks my age & older but none were invited to the taping, 

For the last last two weeks, online services have been one (1) worship leader at his home, and one (1) preacher giving a sermon from his home.

 
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When the corona virus signs a legally-binding contract that it will respect houses of worship and not infect any members gathered therein, then they can be exempted. Until, then, shut everything down.

 
It's pretty simply texual, and I don't care how it's been whittled away. States had that right to ban mass gatherings. The federal government didn't. Were it left that way by the Supreme Court, things would be pretty cut-and-dried. Incorporation, thought of as necessary, totally obliterated this necessary distinction between state and federal response. The National Guard was only established to cement the Supremacy Clause, not to keep people from moving.

I'm against any federal government action to prevent people from gathering. Simple as that. 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

 
BobbyLayne said:
I think I’ll always remember March 11 as the day things got real.

• During the day, the WHO (finally) declared a global pandemic.

• At 9pm, President Trumped addressed the nation (only his second prime time national address.) It ran about 9-1/2 minutes.

• At approximately 9:20, we learned Tom & Rita Wilson has tested positive for Covid-19 in Australia.

• At 9:30, The Utah Jazz and Oklahoma City Thunder were pulled off the court. Shortly thereafter, it was Rudy Gobert tested positive for the coronavirus & the NBA was suspending its season.

Despite all that, most people continued their lives business as usual (though many would be WFH by the following week. The guidance then was no gatherings above 500 or 250, NYS Pause wasn’t put into effect until March 20th.

Out Manhattan based church - with 10K members and another 7.5K at campuses in NJ, CT, & Boston - announced we would hold online services for the first time in our 8-1/2 year history.

We rented a small tv studio in northern NJ. Normally, Sundays in NYC would require 1,000 volunteers to serve the 10,500 (3.5K x 3) congregants. We went with a skeleton crew of 80 and limited the parishioners to 120: pastors, church staff, interns & lay leaders. This was shot on Friday night & broadcast on 3/15.

Over the last two weeks, we’ve had a cluster of folks get sick. During a Zoom meeting of 300+ (Team Rally) yesterday morning, it was estimated we have about 25 positive cases. At least 20 of those are people who symptomatic but were never tested - around half of the unconfirmed cases went to the ER, received a triage diagnosis, and were sent home.

Thankfully, we have a very young church; none of the cases so far have required hospitalization, no one is in an ICU. Oldest is 40. We have a lots of folks my age & older but none were invited to the taping, 

For the last last two weeks, online services have been one (1) worship leader at his home, and one (1) preacher giving a sermon from his home.
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The most amazing thing to me about March 11 is that IT WAS ONLY 19 DAYS AGO!!!!!

this month has been one hell of a year

 
Snorkelson said:
I understand the constitutional issues with making them, and it’s extremely irresponsible of the parish if they continue gatherings.
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Not sure there is a real issue.  If they are limiting all gatherings over a certain size it is neutral regulation so less problematic.  Couldn't just ban churches as that would be an issue.  

 
rockaction said:
It's pretty simply texual, and I don't care how it's been whittled away. States had that right to ban mass gatherings. The federal government didn't. Were it left that way by the Supreme Court, things would be pretty cut-and-dried. Incorporation, thought of as necessary, totally obliterated this necessary distinction between state and federal response. The National Guard was only established to cement the Supremacy Clause, not to keep people from moving.

I'm against any federal government action to prevent people from gathering. Simple as that. 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
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I think I could make a persuasive argument that their assembly isn't peaceful.

 
AAABatteries said:
I think I could make a persuasive argument that their assembly isn't peaceful.
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There are plenty of nits to pick with my argument. That the executive would be granting this power is the first nit to pick. But we have a penumbral understanding against banning gatherings that should be paid attention to in the swift calls for isolation and other distance approaches to the disease.

This paper by the ACLU sees issues with pandemic planning and implementation. I haven't read all of it, but I've conusmed the last day or so browsing what the issues are. 

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/privacy/pemic_report.pdf

Especially relevant is page 20 and 21 on flu pandemics.  Especially more relevant are their Constitutional concerns on pages 22 onward. 

 
rockaction said:
It's pretty simply texual, and I don't care how it's been whittled away. States had that right to ban mass gatherings. The federal government didn't. Were it left that way by the Supreme Court, things would be pretty cut-and-dried. Incorporation, thought of as necessary, totally obliterated this necessary distinction between state and federal response. The National Guard was only established to cement the Supremacy Clause, not to keep people from moving.

I'm against any federal government action to prevent people from gathering. Simple as that. 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Click to expand...
Isn't it the state shutting it down?

 
Ted Lange as your Bartender said:
The most amazing thing to me about March 11 is that IT WAS ONLY 19 DAYS AGO!!!!!

this month has been one hell of a year
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You can’t fool me. I know what a year feels like, guy.

Have had a conversation in this vein a few times.

“When are our numbers gonna go down? You’d think after a month we’d see a drop.”

Bruh-oh....we started PAUSE on March 20. It’s only been 10 days.

 
cap'n grunge said:
Isn't it the state shutting it down?
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The state shutting it down is constitutionally problematic because of the incorporation I mention. Any state actor, state, municipality, whatever, is now subject to scrutiny. It used to be only the federal government that was subject to the First. Now it's the states, who have farmed that right out to the executive, and so on...

you can see where the byzantine system of government now comes in. We've streamlined everything to the federal executive.

 
cap'n grunge said:
Anectdotal but I know our church does have online offering available.
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Ours too. We also utilize text giving. About 80% of our tithes are collected via online or text giving. We are a younger church and have utilized technology from day one. But there are a lot of older congregations that, unfortunately, I don't think will make it financially when we come out the other end of this.

 
The fact that this is even MAYBE a debate is a sign that we're all screwed.

If you believe in God, I'm pretty sure he understands if people dont show up to a building on Sunday for a while.

 
BobbyLayne said:
I think I’ll always remember March 11 as the day things got real.

• During the day, the WHO (finally) declared a global pandemic.

• At 9pm, President Trumped addressed the nation (only his second prime time national address.) It ran about 9-1/2 minutes.

• At approximately 9:20, we learned Tom & Rita Wilson had tested positive for Covid-19 in Australia.

• At 9:30, The Utah Jazz and Oklahoma City Thunder were pulled off the court. Shortly thereafter, Rudi Gobert tested positive for the coronavirus & the NBA was suspending its season.
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Yep. All that in one evening. That was the night I ran to the nearest big grocery, 45 minutes before closing, and loaded up for the long haul.

 
Doug B said:
Yep. All that in one evening. That was the night I ran to the nearest big grocery, 45 minutes before closing, and loaded up for the long haul.
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Not an option for most NYers. My rule of thumb is if I buy something for the apartment, I have to figure out what I’m taking to goodwill. Space is at a premium & I routinely declutter.

Thankfully, for that or whatever reason, the independent grocer one block away has never seen panic buying (for lack of a better term.) Never out of anything. I suit up with surgical gloves & an N95 if I need to walk over there.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
No.  I'm a big supporter of the first amendment, but the government has a compelling reason for banning public gatherings right now, and there's no good argument for excluding churches.
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I'm a leader at my church and while I haven't advertised it at all (except a private conversation with @Joe Bryant ) I am part of a senior leadership team building a new church in a low income area. Alot of the business aspects of the new church are on my shoulders. This virus is going to kill our budget and hurt our plans considerably. We have been working for 3 weeks now revising and working though alternate plans.

All that to say, any church that meets in person right now is failing the primary responsibility of church leadership, which is protect and serve the people of the church and the community.  Church isn't a building and far too many people fail to grasp that. 

 
Yankee23Fan said:
Church isn't a building and far too many people fail to grasp that. 
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Asked and answered Counselor.

John 4:19-24

19 The woman said to him, "Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship."
21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.
24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." 
 
COVID-19 is a world-wide public health crisis. Who is in the highest risk category? Elderly parishoners.  Who is susceptible? Everyone with a pulse. There should be 0 exemptions to this policy, save HCP's treating COVID-19 patients.

You're really not being objective here if you're for churches holding services. Blood is on the hands of the church if they move forward here.

 
AAABatteries said:
This is real simple - if any group over X people can't get together - book club, therapy groups, boy scouts, @Sheriff Bart's Zumba class, FFB drafts, schools, non-essential jobs - the churches should do the same.  This shouldn't even be a question and they should fine the idiots that are still getting together when they've been instructed not to.
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This. 

If you wanted to argue that there should be no such ban, I could probably support that, as long as people are allowed to telework.  But if there is the rule, it should apply to churches.

Grace Under Pressure said:
Apologies if I missed it, but what is the argument supporting continuing to have in-person services? 
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Pretty sure it's only those who want the church members to get sick.

Our church closed services a week before schools closed the doors.

 
BobbyLayne said:
It’s one church in Florida. There are 400K Christian places of worship in America. Not gonna get any clicks with stories about the 399,999 who went to online services.
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Agreed. I guess my question might be “why is this even a poll/a discussion”? Like I didn’t see even one post defending having them, so was curious why it’s even a discussion point.

 
AAABatteries said:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
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I respect a strict constructionist stance, but this is a living document, and these words were written by people whose understanding of disease processes left everything to be desired. Regardless of their scientific knowledge, I feel confident the Founding Fathers would be out there boarding up their own churches today.

 
kevzilla said:
AAABatteries said:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Click to expand...
I respect a strict constructionist stance, but this is a living document, and these words were written by people whose understanding of disease processes left everything to be desired. Regardless of their scientific knowledge, I feel confident the Founding Fathers would be out there boarding up their own churches today.
Click to expand...
I should point out that Congress made no such law.  An emergency declaration by the President or the Governors of the States is not the same thing.  The same restrictions have been made during other emergencies such as hurricanes with no difficulty.

 
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