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Classic Album Discussion Thread: The Kinks-Lola Versus Powerman and the Moneygoround, Pt. 1 (2 Viewers)

Koya said:
Curious if those who 'don't get' the Dead ever had the good fortune to see a show. I only caught their final few years, and wow, just never experienced anything so... wonderful.

I like their music, though appreciate it more than I enjoy just listening to it for any extended period. Had friends who did the 100+ cassette collection of shows.

@Ditkaless Wonders - while I only saw about 8-10 shows, I was fortunate enough to be at the Tempe natural amphitheater in 1992 (Think it was 92) when the skies opened up cooling everyone off just before the show, and IIRC the band came out while it was still raining (maybe just after) and played Here Comes Sunshine for the first time in like 17 years or something. I didn't at first get the magnitude of what was happening, but you quickly could tell from the crowd something special was afoot, even for a Dead show.
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I 'get' the Dead, witnessed their blissed canoodling live on several occasions and found the live experience to only heighten my revulsion with the adulation and general nambypamby their audience added to the experience. I may be a hippie, but i'm definitely with Aristotle that "If all are my brothers, then none are". The only up for me has ever been the great lengths the band & crew went to make festival sound work, something i was in the business of and always admired.

And, boy, do the Dead know how to take care of their fans. As a prank, one of my friends responded to my visceral & vitriolic distaste for the band by writing a fan letter to them in my name. By his doing so, i've been an enrolled (tho ironic) Dead Head since 1971 and my goodness the stuff they've sent me thru the years, posters, paraphernalia, white pressings even and somehow, in those days when one could actually stay off the grid pretty easily, the stuff followed me thru 20 yrs and a dozen addresses. Gotta admire that.

 
Bull Dozier said:
I can still remember the first time I saw this video on Headbangers Ball.  It was life changing (apparently, like the first time Tim listened to a Grateful Dead album).  Now when I hear this song, I listen to it wondering why it was so amazing to me.
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As with most of us young boys, probably something to do with the line “She told me to come, but I was already there.”

 
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I keep hearing the word metal used to describe AC/DC and Black Sabbath. I’ve never in my own mind thought of them that way. Here’s what I mean: 

Examples of hard rock bands: 

AC/DC, Black Sabbath, Van Halen, Aerosmith, Deep Purple, Guns N Roses, etc. 

Examples of Metal bands: 

Metallica, Motörhead, Anthrax, Megadeath, Iron Maiden, etc. 

The first batch of bands I mentioned are certainly loud and rock fast, but they have pop sensibilities and are accessivle to the average listener. The second batch are less accessible, more suited to the specific listener (in the same way bebop Jazz is). 

Hope I’m making sense here. 

 
timschochet said:
I keep hearing the word metal used to describe AC/DC and Black Sabbath. I’ve never in my own mind thought of them that way. Here’s what I mean: 

Examples of hard rock bands: 

AC/DC, Black Sabbath, Van Halen, Aerosmith, Deep Purple, Guns N Roses, etc. 

Examples of Metal bands: 

Metallica, Motörhead, Anthrax, Megadeath, Iron Maiden, etc. 

The first batch of bands I mentioned are certainly loud and rock fast, but they have pop sensibilities and are accessivle to the average listener. The second batch are less accessible, more suited to the specific listener (in the same way bebop Jazz is). 

Hope I’m making sense here. 
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I generally agree with this, but when I was in 8th grade, I didn't care about making these distinctions.  So, when someone gave me an ACDC "tape" I loved it and drew the symbol on my jean jacket.  Same thing happened with Metallica, Maiden, Anthrax, and GnR.  Wether they were all the same specific genre didn't matter as much as kids who listened to metal generally listened to most of these bands (other than those excluded due to personal taste).  No one said "hey you can't have both Metallica and ACDC on your jacket!'"

 
jamny said:
It's a good point about stunted growth. Between the crowd I hung with and the band I sang with, I was so engulfed in the metal scene that I never broadened my horizons from my teens through my 20's. There was a time, for a few years, where I barely listened to any music at all. I was always into finding new music and didn't find much to like around when numetal was big. I started getting into classical and jazz and it wasn't until finally finding David Bowie that I finally started looking back at things I missed along the way. While I will still check out some new metal on Sirius, I listen mostly to 60's (our yard hangout music) and 70's hard rock now.
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Sounds very familiar.     It was a combo of my friends and I being "too metal" to try much else and all other music was crap, and the jocks we all hated in H.S. were country and classic rock guys, so that drove desire to not want to listen to that even more.   I started to dabble a little bit after college, but honestly it wasn't until all the music drafts started up that I really started giving more stuff an honest listen.   It's probably why I listen to a lot of non-metal music now.  Despite just not liking a bit of the new metal stuff, there are so many other things that I was too cool for school to try out for a decade +, that is brand new to me now.  

 
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Bull Dozier said:
I generally agree with this, but when I was in 8th grade, I didn't care about making these distinctions.  So, when someone gave me an ACDC "tape" I loved it and drew the symbol on my jean jacket.  Same thing happened with Metallica, Maiden, Anthrax, and GnR.  Wether they were all the same specific genre didn't matter as much as kids who listened to metal generally listened to most of these bands (other than those excluded due to personal taste).  No one said "hey you can't have both Metallica and ACDC on your jacket!'"
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Would you have had Van Halen and Aerosmith on your jacket? Or were they too mainstream? 

 
timschochet said:
I keep hearing the word metal used to describe AC/DC and Black Sabbath. I’ve never in my own mind thought of them that way. Here’s what I mean: 

Examples of hard rock bands: 

AC/DC, Black Sabbath, Van Halen, Aerosmith, Deep Purple, Guns N Roses, etc. 

Examples of Metal bands: 

Metallica, Motörhead, Anthrax, Megadeath, Iron Maiden, etc. 

The first batch of bands I mentioned are certainly loud and rock fast, but they have pop sensibilities and are accessivle to the average listener. The second batch are less accessible, more suited to the specific listener (in the same way bebop Jazz is). 

Hope I’m making sense here. 
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Black Sabbath is the one that you have wrong, IMO and are metal.  There are others who helped lay the foundation, but they were front and center at that time.  People do argue over bands like Deep Purple and Zeppelin, but I don't know how people could put on an album of those two bands, then put on Black Sabbath's debut and think it's the same thing.  There really wasn't much like Sabbath for what seems like a good 1/2 a decade.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
Black Sabbath is the one that you have wrong, IMO and are metal.  There are others who helped lay the foundation, but they were front and center at that time.  People do argue over bands like Deep Purple and Zeppelin, but I don't know how people could put on an album of those two bands, then put on Black Sabbath's debut and think it's the same thing.  There really wasn't much like Sabbath for what seems like a good 1/2 a decade.  
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Certainly Black Sabbath was unique at the time. But when I listen to Paranoid and then I put on Megadeath, I don’t feel like I’m hearing the same genre of music. 

 
As soon as I saw AC/DC - Back in Black in the thread title, I put the over/under at posts before someone said "I prefer the earlier Bon Scott albums" at 5 posts. Turns out it was 4, us music geeks don't disappoint! :thumbup:

Not much else left to say that hasn't already been said, I certainly get and understand why many feel that way about Scott but I love the music from both era's with either him and Johnson. I'm glad I got to see them one last time live on the Black Ice tour about a decade ago before age caught up with Malcolm and Johnson. They were still putting on absolutely amazing stage shows, as if it was still the 80's. Giant inflatable dolls for Whole Lotta Rosie, huge bell hanging from the ceiling that Johnson jumped on and rang for Hells Bells, 21 gun salute with canons on the stage for We Salute You at the end! :headbang:

No desire to go see them ever again with AxL fronting them.

 
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timschochet said:
Certainly Black Sabbath was unique at the time. But when I listen to Paranoid and then I put on Megadeath, I don’t feel like I’m hearing the same genre of music. 
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I think Paranoid is a tad more mainstream than the doom of their self titled, and also keep in mind there are a lot of subgenres of metal as well and it did morph a bit in the decade after Sabbath's debut.   Like I said, I usually compare it to what else was around at that time in the 60s/70s, and then I think it's a slam dunk case.   

 
Back In Black is one of the greatest pure hard rock records ever produced.

The tone is simply delicious. The songs perfectly crafted. Just a perfect album.

 
jamny said:
Put on some doom metal like St. Vitus or Candlemass and see what you think then. There are so many sub-genres of metal.
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Candlemass popped into mind after I posted that, especially if you listen to the song Black Sabbath.  Not really fair to compare that to an 80s thrash metal band.   But there's nothing on a LZ or D.Purple album that sounds like that song.  

Also if you happen to start with a song like Changes, you aren't going to think they are metal either.  ;)

 
wikkidpissah said:
I 'get' the Dead, witnessed their blissed canoodling live on several occasions and found the live experience to only heighten my revulsion with the adulation and general nambypamby their audience added to the experience. I may be a hippie, but i'm definitely with Aristotle that "If all are my brothers, then none are".
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I've been to a lot of GD shows with most being in the 80s, and some spread out over the following years. For me, the audience is part of the fun. I loved the pre-concert experience out in the parking lots, especially in the 80s. This fellowship of people at a gigantic party/flea market was so much fun. People everywhere playing music, dancing, drinking, drugging, selling items and food they made. Hare Krishnas preaching their word.  :lol:   No judgements, just free spirit fun. That spilled over into the shows. You could lose two pounds from dancing. Anyway, I've never idolized the GD, but I've had some great times going to their shows, and making some great friends along the way.

 
I am listening to the song Black Sabbath now, and after the doomy start, at about 4:30 when that other riff comes in for the next minute, that sounds very much like something that Iron Maiden would put out, which is a band tim listed as metal.  

 
If i were to be given a study grant for all my wildass theories, my first area of concentration would be the effect of rhythm and melody on personality. As i've gone into on these pages before, i honestly believe to tell between people as to which they prefer and that a diet of boom-boom music (metal/rap/etc) for young persons is a self-fulfiling prphecy for the kind of person they become.

I believed this well before i was ever clinically concerned with issues of personality from being in the music biz at a young age and noticing how distinctly of a type drummers were and how their "rhythmic" outlook reinforced, almost trapped, them in being who they are. I have a strong feeling that people with so-called attention deficits and hyperactivity disorders are dramatically more likely to be fixated on rhythmic over melodic aspects of outlook and, therefore, might possibly be "treated" with melody to help in reaching personal equilibrium.

Developmentally, we are half computer and half monkey and it has mystified me for decades how overwhelmingly often we choose the monkey as captain of our personalities and actions.  Much as i enjoy rockin' out, i believe boom-boom music to reinforce the mistake of animalism in our inner hierarchy. We now return you to our regular programming....

 
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wikkidpissah said:
I 'get' the Dead, witnessed their blissed canoodling live on several occasions and found the live experience to only heighten my revulsion with the adulation and general nambypamby their audience added to the experience. I may be a hippie, but i'm definitely with Aristotle that "If all are my brothers, then none are". The only up for me has ever been the great lengths the band & crew went to make festival sound work, something i was in the business of and always admired.

And, boy, do the Dead know how to take care of their fans. As a prank, one of my friends responded to my visceral & vitriolic distaste for the band by writing a fan letter to them in my name. By his doing so, i've been an enrolled (tho ironic) Dead Head since 1971 and my goodness the stuff they've sent me thru the years, posters, paraphernalia, white pressings even and somehow, in those days when one could actually stay off the grid pretty easily, the stuff followed me thru 20 yrs and a dozen addresses. Gotta admire that.
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Let me know if you want to get rid of any of that stuff. 

 
KarmaPolice said:
Black Sabbath is the one that you have wrong, IMO and are metal.  There are others who helped lay the foundation, but they were front and center at that time.  People do argue over bands like Deep Purple and Zeppelin, but I don't know how people could put on an album of those two bands, then put on Black Sabbath's debut and think it's the same thing.  There really wasn't much like Sabbath for what seems like a good 1/2 a decade.  
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I still don't think anyone has come that close all these years to replicating the sound and technical proficiency of Sabbath. Many have tried, few have succeeded. 

 
KarmaPolice said:
I am listening to the song Black Sabbath now, and after the doomy start, at about 4:30 when that other riff comes in for the next minute, that sounds very much like something that Iron Maiden would put out, which is a band tim listed as metal.  
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I wonder how many couples had that as their wedding song back in 1970.

 
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zamboni said:
I wonder how many couples had that as their wedding song back in 1970.
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when my daughter was in Jr High and was listening to Spice Girls type of crap, I sat her down and played this song for her..  the reaction was priceless..  to this day she likes MY music (Floyd, Zep, Sabbath)

 
timschochet said:
Would you have had Van Halen and Aerosmith on your jacket? Or were they too mainstream? 
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Personally I would not have.  At the time the new music they were putting out wasn't "hard" enough for me to include, and it didn't get me to listen to their older stuff (I was familiar with VH's 1984 stuff, but I looked down my nose at that).  I wasn't familiar with Aerosmiths back catalogue at the time.

 
timschochet said:
Certainly Black Sabbath was unique at the time. But when I listen to Paranoid and then I put on Megadeath, I don’t feel like I’m hearing the same genre of music. 
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I agree with you in general terms. But Metallica or Maiden's most accessible song can make it to a "Hard Rock" playlist dominated by AC/DC, Deep Purple, Zep, and Sabbath. I could see Run to the Hills or Enter Sandman played along with Paranoid and Iron Man. 

 
timschochet said:
I keep hearing the word metal used to describe AC/DC and Black Sabbath. I’ve never in my own mind thought of them that way. Here’s what I mean: 

Examples of hard rock bands: 

AC/DC, Black Sabbath, Van Halen, Aerosmith, Deep Purple, Guns N Roses, etc. 

Examples of Metal bands: 

Metallica, Motörhead, Anthrax, Megadeath, Iron Maiden, etc. 

The first batch of bands I mentioned are certainly loud and rock fast, but they have pop sensibilities and are accessivle to the average listener. The second batch are less accessible, more suited to the specific listener (in the same way bebop Jazz is). 

Hope I’m making sense here. 
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There's crossover among the fan bases and your "hard rock" bands laid the groundwork for your "metal" bands. This is kind of why labels are silly - does it matter if AC/DC is hard rock or metal? Does it change anyone's opinion on the music?

 
Sabbath are the godfathers of metal.

Different genres of metal have since been born.....but Sabbath were the first true heavy metal band in my ears.

 
timschochet said:
I keep hearing the word metal used to describe AC/DC and Black Sabbath. I’ve never in my own mind thought of them that way. Here’s what I mean: 

Examples of hard rock bands: 

AC/DC, Black Sabbath, Van Halen, Aerosmith, Deep Purple, Guns N Roses, etc. 

Examples of Metal bands: 

Metallica, Motörhead, Anthrax, Megadeath, Iron Maiden, etc. 

The first batch of bands I mentioned are certainly loud and rock fast, but they have pop sensibilities and are accessivle to the average listener. The second batch are less accessible, more suited to the specific listener (in the same way bebop Jazz is). 

Hope I’m making sense here. 
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same here - agreed.  

 
Todem said:
Sabbath are the godfathers of metal.

Different genres of metal have since been born.....but Sabbath were the first true heavy metal band in my ears.
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I am with Tim on seeing these guys as hard rockers - but wouldn't argue that they helped create the shift.  Deep Purple was there as well.  

 
Todem said:
Sabbath are the godfathers of metal.

Different genres of metal have since been born.....but Sabbath were the first true heavy metal band in my ears.
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Yep. And both Deep Purple & Zep were classified as "heavy metal" back in the day. Hell, so was early Grand Funk. 

The fact that "metal" got usurped by 80s fanboys who retconned the earlier bands into "just "hard rock doesn't matter. At the time those bands were doing their best stuff, they were considered heavy metal.

I hate genre labels, but that's how they were generally thought of when they were live.

Sabbath would be the easiest to include in that 80s definition, though they tended to plod a bit in comparison to Motorhead and those kinds of bands.

Deep Purple gets left out a lot, but the guys who would make up thrash bands were listening. They just happened to use keyboards for it as often as they did guitars (or both in tandem). "Smoke On The Water" usually gets trotted out when someone wants to prove Purple heaviness credentials, but go listen to "Highway Star" - that's a damned speed metal record.

Zep could get as heavy as anyone, but they also had more finesse than any of the 80s bands (and the heavier 70s bands, too). 

 
Uruk-Hai said:
Yep. And both Deep Purple & Zep were classified as "heavy metal" back in the day. Hell, so was early Grand Funk. 

The fact that "metal" got usurped by 80s fanboys who retconned the earlier bands into "just "hard rock doesn't matter. At the time those bands were doing their best stuff, they were considered heavy metal.

I hate genre labels, but that's how they were generally thought of when they were live.

Sabbath would be the easiest to include in that 80s definition, though they tended to plod a bit in comparison to Motorhead and those kinds of bands.

Deep Purple gets left out a lot, but the guys who would make up thrash bands were listening. They just happened to use keyboards for it as often as they did guitars (or both in tandem). "Smoke On The Water" usually gets trotted out when someone wants to prove Purple heaviness credentials, but go listen to "Highway Star" - that's a damned speed metal record.

Zep could get as heavy as anyone, but they also had more finesse than any of the 80s bands (and the heavier 70s bands, too). 
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Yeah...Achilles Last Stand......that is progressive metal. 

I agree Deep Purple was also super heavy for the times.

In the 80's Metal evolved into Maiden, Ozzy, Dio then the speed metal branched off with Metallica, Anthrax etc.

Hard Rock can also be mixed into the metal conversation.

But I never considered AC/DC metal.....ever. They are truly blues based hard rock. Same for early Aerosmith etc.

It is a totally subjective topic though. I can see both sides of the discussion.

 
Todem said:
But I never considered AC/DC metal.....ever. They are truly blues based hard rock. Same for early Aerosmith etc.

It is a totally subjective topic though. I can see both sides of the discussion.
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I did with both of them (when I had to use those terms for conversational purposes), but that's because that's what that type of crunchy music was called when I first started listening to it. Van Halen, too.

But I also realize that most don't think of them like that anymore.

 
An album or two ago, but I have my copy of American Beauty spinning on my turntable now - truly a great album.

 
Uruk-Hai said:
I did with both of them (when I had to use those terms for conversational purposes), but that's because that's what that type of crunchy music was called when I first started listening to it. Van Halen, too.

But I also realize that most don't think of them like that anymore.
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Yes, in the early 80's lots of bands were classified as metal just because they weren't classic rock, new wave,punk or pop. All the other types of metal(speed, thrash,black,hair,sludge,etc) we're non- existent or just coming into play at this time. 

 
AC/DC falls into that Robert Plant type of singing where they sound like their balls are being squeezed in a vice on nearly every song. 

I could never get into that for more than a song or two.

 
wikkidpissah said:
While i would not characterize Deep Purple as metal i would call Blackmore a founding father of its guitar aspects
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What Blackmore did was make his parts fit into the song so that they sounded organic. Many of the 80s metal bands' leads didn't do that - they went on these berserker rants that sounded like they were recorded for another song entirely. I blame Eddie Van Halen for that ####, though he himself was much better at fitting his solos into the song's melody than his acolytes were.

Prince is the best I've ever heard at making his solos work within the song every damned time.

 
Uruk-Hai said:
Prince is the best I've ever heard at making his solos work within the song every damned time.
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:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

The reason jazz died, the reason (beside the ridiculous pricing) rock music performance has been largely dead to me for a very long time and the reason i dont like a lot of bands other folks do is down to the most over-rated aspect of modern music - soloing. I don't even care all that much for concertos for the same reason. However, song-integrated, single-chorus solos are among the most transcendent, glorious & beautiful moments in all of music.

 
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Todem said:
Back In Black is one of the greatest pure hard rock records ever produced.

The tone is simply delicious. The songs perfectly crafted. Just a perfect album.
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Totally agree.  I prefer Bon Scott's vocals but for ACDC to put out an album of this magnitude just after Scott's death is amazing.  The guitar sound and riffs are outstanding.  I am a guitar driven listener and this album delivers.  I listened to this album way too much in Jr high and high school and never listen to the album any longer but I love when I hear Back in Black or Shoot to Thrill.  This album blared in the HS weight room almost daily and was in my ears for probably hundreds of workouts over the years.  

ACDC does get old after a while though.  It is great that they stuck with what works for them but I didn't buy many ACDC albums after Back in Black.    

Angus credited Chuck Berry as a big influence and you can hear that influence a ton in Angus's solos.  Other heavy metal musicians then credit Angus for being a big influence.  Scott Not Ian (Anthrax) cites Malcolm as a big influence so the whole hard rock vs. metal discussion seems silly to me.  Anthrax seems metal but were influenced by a hard rock band based on the blues.  Most bands probably do not care what genre they fall.  

 
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