Coaching Youth Basketball (2 Viewers)

[MAC_32]

We're toying with a junk defense one step beyond triangle and 2. We have a sample size of one, but our 3 chaser defense yielded a 27-1 halftime lead over a team that was 5-1 (8-2 including tournaments) that had a +107 diff going into it. Nothing ground breaking, just fits our guys well- our big guys are on the block, and the other 3 play man- we call it chaos.

7 man team
4 littles for 3 spots- 1 is not athletic but feisty (avg 1 steal per game), other 3 are exceptional defenders (avg 10 steals per game)
3 bigs for 2 spots on the block- 2 have some range / athleticism (both can play chaos role), other 1 is solely a rim protector

We won't deploy it against everyone, the team we destroyed had 2 alphas / 1 good post player / 2 shooters / 2 complimentary players / 2...guys. Basically forced the ball to the other 6 guys, sometimes uncovered, which based on their body language was unexpected, they got flustered, the shots they did get were rushed / off balance, and their core 3 were washed away. Mixed in some of it off as press as well. It's vulnerable to back side cuts, which they finally hit in the 2nd half, but by the time they realized it the game was over.

I stop short of calling this our new base defense, but we're opening in it until further notice. As we emphasized to them, and will re-emphasize again, this will work as long as we take care of the ball on O and get back on D when we don't score.

 

[acarey50]

Dribble Up is actually a pretty good app for developing ball handling for youth players.

We had a lot of our kids using it during Covid, challenging each other to see who could get the best score, etc.

Saw good improvement in the kids that did it fairly consistently considering we could not actually practice as a team for quite some time.

I downloaded Homecourt for my kids, which is basically the same thing as far as I can tell only you don’t need any special equipment. They LOVE it.

Actually, HomeCourt is what we used, not dribble up - similar apps. But I am just inundated with Dribble Up ads that it was the name on my brain.

 

[Chadstroma]

We're toying with a junk defense one step beyond triangle and 2. We have a sample size of one, but our 3 chaser defense yielded a 27-1 halftime lead over a team that was 5-1 (8-2 including tournaments) that had a +107 diff going into it. Nothing ground breaking, just fits our guys well- our big guys are on the block, and the other 3 play man- we call it chaos.

7 man team
4 littles for 3 spots- 1 is not athletic but feisty (avg 1 steal per game), other 3 are exceptional defenders (avg 10 steals per game)
3 bigs for 2 spots on the block- 2 have some range / athleticism (both can play chaos role), other 1 is solely a rim protector

We won't deploy it against everyone, the team we destroyed had 2 alphas / 1 good post player / 2 shooters / 2 complimentary players / 2...guys. Basically forced the ball to the other 6 guys, sometimes uncovered, which based on their body language was unexpected, they got flustered, the shots they did get were rushed / off balance, and their core 3 were washed away. Mixed in some of it off as press as well. It's vulnerable to back side cuts, which they finally hit in the 2nd half, but by the time they realized it the game was over.

I stop short of calling this our new base defense, but we're opening in it until further notice. As we emphasized to them, and will re-emphasize again, this will work as long as we take care of the ball on O and get back on D when we don't score.

So, it is a blocks and 3?

A couple of questions...

Who do the three pick up? I assume the guards and then the "3"? Do the blocks stay home or come out to close out the corner shot? If so, I would assume the far block player would move over to near block. If they stayed home then I would think that that would be the weak point of the defense if you had a shooter you could get lose from the 3. I also would try to drive up the middle and force the blocks to move up or pull up for a shot around the elbows if they didn't.

The only time I have gone away from M2M was the triangle and 2 and it was really based on stopping the best player in the league assuming we would meet them in playoffs. It ended up being that in one league they were in the other division (42 teams split to 21 teams in each division.) and the other league my PG was sick and missed the game and we narrowly lost so we didn't meet again after our one season game which they beat us. Our home games are recorded and were available on Youtube so other teams would watch them. I specifically did not use it in any of our home games. In a couple of tournaments we were in I put it into play more to get the boys use to playing it in real world.

 

[Navin Johnson]

We're toying with a junk defense one step beyond triangle and 2. We have a sample size of one, but our 3 chaser defense yielded a 27-1 halftime lead over a team that was 5-1 (8-2 including tournaments) that had a +107 diff going into it. Nothing ground breaking, just fits our guys well- our big guys are on the block, and the other 3 play man- we call it chaos.

7 man team
4 littles for 3 spots- 1 is not athletic but feisty (avg 1 steal per game), other 3 are exceptional defenders (avg 10 steals per game)
3 bigs for 2 spots on the block- 2 have some range / athleticism (both can play chaos role), other 1 is solely a rim protector

We won't deploy it against everyone, the team we destroyed had 2 alphas / 1 good post player / 2 shooters / 2 complimentary players / 2...guys. Basically forced the ball to the other 6 guys, sometimes uncovered, which based on their body language was unexpected, they got flustered, the shots they did get were rushed / off balance, and their core 3 were washed away. Mixed in some of it off as press as well. It's vulnerable to back side cuts, which they finally hit in the 2nd half, but by the time they realized it the game was over.

I stop short of calling this our new base defense, but we're opening in it until further notice. As we emphasized to them, and will re-emphasize again, this will work as long as we take care of the ball on O and get back on D when we don't score.

What age group?

 

[Instinctive]

We're toying with a junk defense one step beyond triangle and 2. We have a sample size of one, but our 3 chaser defense yielded a 27-1 halftime lead over a team that was 5-1 (8-2 including tournaments) that had a +107 diff going into it. Nothing ground breaking, just fits our guys well- our big guys are on the block, and the other 3 play man- we call it chaos.

7 man team
4 littles for 3 spots- 1 is not athletic but feisty (avg 1 steal per game), other 3 are exceptional defenders (avg 10 steals per game)
3 bigs for 2 spots on the block- 2 have some range / athleticism (both can play chaos role), other 1 is solely a rim protector

We won't deploy it against everyone, the team we destroyed had 2 alphas / 1 good post player / 2 shooters / 2 complimentary players / 2...guys. Basically forced the ball to the other 6 guys, sometimes uncovered, which based on their body language was unexpected, they got flustered, the shots they did get were rushed / off balance, and their core 3 were washed away. Mixed in some of it off as press as well. It's vulnerable to back side cuts, which they finally hit in the 2nd half, but by the time they realized it the game was over.

I stop short of calling this our new base defense, but we're opening in it until further notice. As we emphasized to them, and will re-emphasize again, this will work as long as we take care of the ball on O and get back on D when we don't score.

What age group?

I was gonna ask the same thing. Sounds like you're doing kids a disservice in the name of winning that won't help them be very good at basketball later on. Without more info.

 

[Chadstroma]

Dribble Up is actually a pretty good app for developing ball handling for youth players.

We had a lot of our kids using it during Covid, challenging each other to see who could get the best score, etc.

Saw good improvement in the kids that did it fairly consistently considering we could not actually practice as a team for quite some time.

I downloaded Homecourt for my kids, which is basically the same thing as far as I can tell only you don’t need any special equipment. They LOVE it.

Actually, HomeCourt is what we used, not dribble up - similar apps. But I am just inundated with Dribble Up ads that it was the name on my brain.

I can't find it... is it only a mac thing? Or?

 

[MAC_32]

So, it is a blocks and 3?

...ish.

Who do the three pick up?

...and this is the 'ish.' It depends on what the other team has to work with. If we draw a team with someone that hit puberty early then we may not run this. I also don't think this will work against a team that passes well (and quickly). I'll explain below.

Do the blocks stay home or come out to close out the corner shot?

To start? 2 of them close out, 1 stays home. The latter is why we started exploring alternatives in the first place. This is his first year playing (he's the rim protector), and he's gotten real good real fast for a rook (7 ppg / 6 rpg despite limited mins), but he's not in good shape (which is why his mins are limited). It's getting to season's end, so better conditioning is a next year thing. For this one- play the hand we're dealt. We'd rather he not close out, especially if a 3, but will adjust with the opponent / maybe switch him sides.

If so, I would assume the far block player would move over to near block. If they stayed home then I would think that that would be the weak point of the defense if you had a shooter you could get lose from the 3. I also would try to drive up the middle and force the blocks to move up or pull up for a shot around the elbows if they didn't.

When we do close out, yes, the other block moves over, that's what opens the back side.

If there is success driving up the middle, we added a triangle and 2 wrinkle. Idea is to be so disruptive around the perimeter if they get in this position the opponent rushes their shot and this is not needed. Didn't need it last weekend, but may need it in the future. Us coaches demonstrated why to them at practice yesterday. If a guard beats someone off the dribble, dishes when a post picks him up, and that post player is a good quick passer (this was me), then that guy beats the help on that back side. If we see that we'll call an audible.

What age group?

6th grade

I was gonna ask the same thing. Sounds like you're doing kids a disservice in the name of winning that won't help them be very good at basketball later on. Without more info.

How so? We've got some real good guard defenders, so put them in a position to be successful and wreak some havoc. By far our least talented player had his best game of the season doing this- he's an unathletic little irish guy and we put him on someone 6" bigger and stronger / faster than him. Our instructions- 'be a pest,' if he beats you off the dribble we got protection behind you. His guy didn't score (don't even recall a clean look) while he net 4 rebounds, 3 steals, 2 points and an assist (both off his steals).

 

[acarey50]

Dribble Up is actually a pretty good app for developing ball handling for youth players.

We had a lot of our kids using it during Covid, challenging each other to see who could get the best score, etc.

Saw good improvement in the kids that did it fairly consistently considering we could not actually practice as a team for quite some time.

I downloaded Homecourt for my kids, which is basically the same thing as far as I can tell only you don’t need any special equipment. They LOVE it.

Actually, HomeCourt is what we used, not dribble up - similar apps. But I am just inundated with Dribble Up ads that it was the name on my brain.

I can't find it... is it only a mac thing? Or?

HomeCourt

HomeCourt is a mobile app that uses AI to record and track basketball shots, makes, misses, and location.

www.homecourt.ai

It may be an Apple only app - basically it uses your iPhone/iPad camera to track what you are doing, while showing a demo of what you are to do - and it gives a score based on successfully doing that.

For younger kids, it might be something as simple as 10 crossover dribbles. As you move up, that turns into challenging yourself to complete as many as you can in 30 seconds - and you can set up groups to compete against teammates/friends, share with coaches, etc. They have partnered with some professional players who have also done the drills that you can compete against to try beat their scores.

 

[acarey50]

@MAC_32 Based on what you are describing, you may want to look into the "Amoeba" 1-1-3 pressure zone defense. Some good videos out there from when UNLV ran it under Tark, and I think Baylor has used it effectively.

When my youngest was in 4th/5th grade, we implemented that with the team that I had mostly together since they were in kindergarten to mix it up a bit from our usual man to man defense, and it can really cause some havoc for other teams. Similar age group to yours at the time. While we would be in man probably 75% of the time at that age (we did man 100% up until the end of 4th grade), we implemented a 1-3-1 press that dropped back into the 1-1-3. Usually we would use this when we were playing up an age group as it helped us get more pressure on ball handlers since we were usually outsized, but the constant pressure and movement of the defense would usually create a bad pass.

 

[Chadstroma]

Dribble Up is actually a pretty good app for developing ball handling for youth players.

We had a lot of our kids using it during Covid, challenging each other to see who could get the best score, etc.

Saw good improvement in the kids that did it fairly consistently considering we could not actually practice as a team for quite some time.

I downloaded Homecourt for my kids, which is basically the same thing as far as I can tell only you don’t need any special equipment. They LOVE it.

Actually, HomeCourt is what we used, not dribble up - similar apps. But I am just inundated with Dribble Up ads that it was the name on my brain.

I can't find it... is it only a mac thing? Or?

HomeCourt

HomeCourt is a mobile app that uses AI to record and track basketball shots, makes, misses, and location.

www.homecourt.ai

It may be an Apple only app - basically it uses your iPhone/iPad camera to track what you are doing, while showing a demo of what you are to do - and it gives a score based on successfully doing that.

For younger kids, it might be something as simple as 10 crossover dribbles. As you move up, that turns into challenging yourself to complete as many as you can in 30 seconds - and you can set up groups to compete against teammates/friends, share with coaches, etc. They have partnered with some professional players who have also done the drills that you can compete against to try beat their scores.

My wife's work phone is an iPhone so maybe I will see if that works. Is there any cost at all on it?

 

[MAC_32]

@MAC_32 Based on what you are describing, you may want to look into the "Amoeba" 1-1-3 pressure zone defense. Some good videos out there from when UNLV ran it under Tark, and I think Baylor has used it effectively.

When my youngest was in 4th/5th grade, we implemented that with the team that I had mostly together since they were in kindergarten to mix it up a bit from our usual man to man defense, and it can really cause some havoc for other teams. Similar age group to yours at the time. While we would be in man probably 75% of the time at that age (we did man 100% up until the end of 4th grade), we implemented a 1-3-1 press that dropped back into the 1-1-3. Usually we would use this when we were playing up an age group as it helped us get more pressure on ball handlers since we were usually outsized, but the constant pressure and movement of the defense would usually create a bad pass.

Funny you should say that, when we were talking about this before practice last week, I said 'it is an amoeba but we need something more simple for the guys to call.' Hence, chaos - it rolls off the tongue. My mind was on Rex Ryan's defense (hence, amoeba) when we concocted it, but figured something like it had been done in the game before. Thanks for the Tark tip

 

[thecatch]

Dribble Up is actually a pretty good app for developing ball handling for youth players.

We had a lot of our kids using it during Covid, challenging each other to see who could get the best score, etc.

Saw good improvement in the kids that did it fairly consistently considering we could not actually practice as a team for quite some time.

I downloaded Homecourt for my kids, which is basically the same thing as far as I can tell only you don’t need any special equipment. They LOVE it.

Actually, HomeCourt is what we used, not dribble up - similar apps. But I am just inundated with Dribble Up ads that it was the name on my brain.

I can't find it... is it only a mac thing? Or?

Dribble Up is actually a pretty good app for developing ball handling for youth players.

We had a lot of our kids using it during Covid, challenging each other to see who could get the best score, etc.

Saw good improvement in the kids that did it fairly consistently considering we could not actually practice as a team for quite some time.

I downloaded Homecourt for my kids, which is basically the same thing as far as I can tell only you don’t need any special equipment. They LOVE it.

Actually, HomeCourt is what we used, not dribble up - similar apps. But I am just inundated with Dribble Up ads that it was the name on my brain.

I can't find it... is it only a mac thing? Or?

HomeCourt

HomeCourt is a mobile app that uses AI to record and track basketball shots, makes, misses, and location.

www.homecourt.ai

It may be an Apple only app - basically it uses your iPhone/iPad camera to track what you are doing, while showing a demo of what you are to do - and it gives a score based on successfully doing that.

For younger kids, it might be something as simple as 10 crossover dribbles. As you move up, that turns into challenging yourself to complete as many as you can in 30 seconds - and you can set up groups to compete against teammates/friends, share with coaches, etc. They have partnered with some professional players who have also done the drills that you can compete against to try beat their scores.

My wife's work phone is an iPhone so maybe I will see if that works. Is there any cost at all on it?

It should work. There is a subscription component with additional features but all the basic stuff that you really need is free.

 

[acarey50]

@MAC_32 Based on what you are describing, you may want to look into the "Amoeba" 1-1-3 pressure zone defense. Some good videos out there from when UNLV ran it under Tark, and I think Baylor has used it effectively.

When my youngest was in 4th/5th grade, we implemented that with the team that I had mostly together since they were in kindergarten to mix it up a bit from our usual man to man defense, and it can really cause some havoc for other teams. Similar age group to yours at the time. While we would be in man probably 75% of the time at that age (we did man 100% up until the end of 4th grade), we implemented a 1-3-1 press that dropped back into the 1-1-3. Usually we would use this when we were playing up an age group as it helped us get more pressure on ball handlers since we were usually outsized, but the constant pressure and movement of the defense would usually create a bad pass.

Funny you should say that, when we were talking about this before practice last week, I said 'it is an amoeba but we need something more simple for the guys to call.' Hence, chaos - it rolls off the tongue. My mind was on Rex Ryan's defense (hence, amoeba) when we concocted it, but figured something like it had been done in the game before. Thanks for the Tark tip

We just called it Baylor. A lot of the boys were really into college sports, and since many of the concepts we used we would share video from college games of how things were done, a lot of our calls were college names. Boys had made the connection in their heads, and it helped disguise the call for at leas a short while so we weren't doing thing like yelling out Man, or 23 or whatever like most teams do.

I'm a firm believer in coaching youth in man to man defense to start, but once they have that down, I think it's good to roll those concepts over into other options. We liked the 1-1-3 as it fit our personnel really well. I'm not a fan of 2-3 very much, we used it very sparingly, usually only if we were shorthanded and needed to give our kids a chance to steal breathers.

 

[MAC_32]

I'm not a fan of 2-3 very much, we used it very sparingly, usually only if we were shorthanded and needed to give our kids a chance to steal breathers.

Experimented with it and a box-and-1 in one game, but it was an abject disaster. Only one loss this year so far and that one was ugly. That said, glad we did it, because it led to this idea. Our post guys are better with zone concepts (against some opponents anyway), but our guards? Not at all. We're a defense creates offense sorta team and all zone did was neuter them.

This junk defense allows them freedom to be aggressive, knowing that if they get caught with their hand in the cookie jar, they got help. It also masks bad habits of our post guys. I mentioned the one (conditioning), but our two more athletic ones have a tendency to get grabby, especially as the intensity ramps up. We leverage their aggressiveness in press, but this D gives them a moment to breathe, so hopefully early foul trouble can be avoided, then we can consider unleashing them in the guard role as the games goes on if there's a matchup to exploit.

 

[Navin Johnson]

So, it is a blocks and 3?

...ish.

Who do the three pick up?

...and this is the 'ish.' It depends on what the other team has to work with. If we draw a team with someone that hit puberty early then we may not run this. I also don't think this will work against a team that passes well (and quickly). I'll explain below.

Do the blocks stay home or come out to close out the corner shot?

To start? 2 of them close out, 1 stays home. The latter is why we started exploring alternatives in the first place. This is his first year playing (he's the rim protector), and he's gotten real good real fast for a rook (7 ppg / 6 rpg despite limited mins), but he's not in good shape (which is why his mins are limited). It's getting to season's end, so better conditioning is a next year thing. For this one- play the hand we're dealt. We'd rather he not close out, especially if a 3, but will adjust with the opponent / maybe switch him sides.

If so, I would assume the far block player would move over to near block. If they stayed home then I would think that that would be the weak point of the defense if you had a shooter you could get lose from the 3. I also would try to drive up the middle and force the blocks to move up or pull up for a shot around the elbows if they didn't.

When we do close out, yes, the other block moves over, that's what opens the back side.

If there is success driving up the middle, we added a triangle and 2 wrinkle. Idea is to be so disruptive around the perimeter if they get in this position the opponent rushes their shot and this is not needed. Didn't need it last weekend, but may need it in the future. Us coaches demonstrated why to them at practice yesterday. If a guard beats someone off the dribble, dishes when a post picks him up, and that post player is a good quick passer (this was me), then that guy beats the help on that back side. If we see that we'll call an audible.

What age group?

6th grade

I was gonna ask the same thing. Sounds like you're doing kids a disservice in the name of winning that won't help them be very good at basketball later on. Without more info.

How so? We've got some real good guard defenders, so put them in a position to be successful and wreak some havoc. By far our least talented player had his best game of the season doing this- he's an unathletic little irish guy and we put him on someone 6" bigger and stronger / faster than him. Our instructions- 'be a pest,' if he beats you off the dribble we got protection behind you. His guy didn't score (don't even recall a clean look) while he net 4 rebounds, 3 steals, 2 points and an assist (both off his steals).

You shouldn't be playing anything but m2m at that age

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

So, it is a blocks and 3?

...ish.

Who do the three pick up?

...and this is the 'ish.' It depends on what the other team has to work with. If we draw a team with someone that hit puberty early then we may not run this. I also don't think this will work against a team that passes well (and quickly). I'll explain below.

Do the blocks stay home or come out to close out the corner shot?

To start? 2 of them close out, 1 stays home. The latter is why we started exploring alternatives in the first place. This is his first year playing (he's the rim protector), and he's gotten real good real fast for a rook (7 ppg / 6 rpg despite limited mins), but he's not in good shape (which is why his mins are limited). It's getting to season's end, so better conditioning is a next year thing. For this one- play the hand we're dealt. We'd rather he not close out, especially if a 3, but will adjust with the opponent / maybe switch him sides.

If so, I would assume the far block player would move over to near block. If they stayed home then I would think that that would be the weak point of the defense if you had a shooter you could get lose from the 3. I also would try to drive up the middle and force the blocks to move up or pull up for a shot around the elbows if they didn't.

When we do close out, yes, the other block moves over, that's what opens the back side.

If there is success driving up the middle, we added a triangle and 2 wrinkle. Idea is to be so disruptive around the perimeter if they get in this position the opponent rushes their shot and this is not needed. Didn't need it last weekend, but may need it in the future. Us coaches demonstrated why to them at practice yesterday. If a guard beats someone off the dribble, dishes when a post picks him up, and that post player is a good quick passer (this was me), then that guy beats the help on that back side. If we see that we'll call an audible.

What age group?

6th grade

I was gonna ask the same thing. Sounds like you're doing kids a disservice in the name of winning that won't help them be very good at basketball later on. Without more info.

How so? We've got some real good guard defenders, so put them in a position to be successful and wreak some havoc. By far our least talented player had his best game of the season doing this- he's an unathletic little irish guy and we put him on someone 6" bigger and stronger / faster than him. Our instructions- 'be a pest,' if he beats you off the dribble we got protection behind you. His guy didn't score (don't even recall a clean look) while he net 4 rebounds, 3 steals, 2 points and an assist (both off his steals).

Anything below high school should be man to man defense. 6th grade is too young for junk defenses.

 

[Instinctive]

So, it is a blocks and 3?

...ish.

Who do the three pick up?

...and this is the 'ish.' It depends on what the other team has to work with. If we draw a team with someone that hit puberty early then we may not run this. I also don't think this will work against a team that passes well (and quickly). I'll explain below.

Do the blocks stay home or come out to close out the corner shot?

To start? 2 of them close out, 1 stays home. The latter is why we started exploring alternatives in the first place. This is his first year playing (he's the rim protector), and he's gotten real good real fast for a rook (7 ppg / 6 rpg despite limited mins), but he's not in good shape (which is why his mins are limited). It's getting to season's end, so better conditioning is a next year thing. For this one- play the hand we're dealt. We'd rather he not close out, especially if a 3, but will adjust with the opponent / maybe switch him sides.

If so, I would assume the far block player would move over to near block. If they stayed home then I would think that that would be the weak point of the defense if you had a shooter you could get lose from the 3. I also would try to drive up the middle and force the blocks to move up or pull up for a shot around the elbows if they didn't.

When we do close out, yes, the other block moves over, that's what opens the back side.

If there is success driving up the middle, we added a triangle and 2 wrinkle. Idea is to be so disruptive around the perimeter if they get in this position the opponent rushes their shot and this is not needed. Didn't need it last weekend, but may need it in the future. Us coaches demonstrated why to them at practice yesterday. If a guard beats someone off the dribble, dishes when a post picks him up, and that post player is a good quick passer (this was me), then that guy beats the help on that back side. If we see that we'll call an audible.

What age group?

6th grade

I was gonna ask the same thing. Sounds like you're doing kids a disservice in the name of winning that won't help them be very good at basketball later on. Without more info.

How so? We've got some real good guard defenders, so put them in a position to be successful and wreak some havoc. By far our least talented player had his best game of the season doing this- he's an unathletic little irish guy and we put him on someone 6" bigger and stronger / faster than him. Our instructions- 'be a pest,' if he beats you off the dribble we got protection behind you. His guy didn't score (don't even recall a clean look) while he net 4 rebounds, 3 steals, 2 points and an assist (both off his steals).

Anything below high school should be man to man defense. 6th grade is too young for junk defenses.

It doesn't teach any fundamental skills. Its purpose is to win games, as demonstrated by your response that your least talented player has his best game. He's not gaining skill or athleticism, he's not learning how to play defense and work around his shortcomings by, for example, improving anticipation or reading a defender's hips. He's just being put in a place where the offense doesn't know what to do and he's at an advantage. He's "being a pest" but not learning at all how to keep his man contained or actually defend him, rather you're teaching him horrible habits that someone will attempt to undo and he may or may not be held back from even making a high school team because the habit is so bad in tryouts.

He'll never play a "2 block 3 out chaos amoeba" in college (at any level). He shouldn't ever do it in high school because any remotely competent high school team would absolutely shred it. He'll never play it in pickup because when he suggested it everyone else would look at him like a loser or a moron LOL.

He will, for the rest of his life playing basketball, benefit from developing as much and as often as possible: lateral quickness, ability to read and react to a defender, knowing where he should funnel or has help and where he doesn't, learning not to gamble for steals but have active hands and deny the ball and create deflections, how to follow the ball with his feet and maintain help positioning, how to stay down in a defensive stance, etc.

You seem to understand this. You outright say "it masks bad habits" it "lets them get caught in the cookie jar." That's AWFUL coaching at basically any age. It's a disservice to the players. Your job is to teach them good habits, break bad ones, etc.

 

[Instinctive]

So, it is a blocks and 3?

...ish.

Who do the three pick up?

...and this is the 'ish.' It depends on what the other team has to work with. If we draw a team with someone that hit puberty early then we may not run this. I also don't think this will work against a team that passes well (and quickly). I'll explain below.

Do the blocks stay home or come out to close out the corner shot?

To start? 2 of them close out, 1 stays home. The latter is why we started exploring alternatives in the first place. This is his first year playing (he's the rim protector), and he's gotten real good real fast for a rook (7 ppg / 6 rpg despite limited mins), but he's not in good shape (which is why his mins are limited). It's getting to season's end, so better conditioning is a next year thing. For this one- play the hand we're dealt. We'd rather he not close out, especially if a 3, but will adjust with the opponent / maybe switch him sides.

If so, I would assume the far block player would move over to near block. If they stayed home then I would think that that would be the weak point of the defense if you had a shooter you could get lose from the 3. I also would try to drive up the middle and force the blocks to move up or pull up for a shot around the elbows if they didn't.

When we do close out, yes, the other block moves over, that's what opens the back side.

If there is success driving up the middle, we added a triangle and 2 wrinkle. Idea is to be so disruptive around the perimeter if they get in this position the opponent rushes their shot and this is not needed. Didn't need it last weekend, but may need it in the future. Us coaches demonstrated why to them at practice yesterday. If a guard beats someone off the dribble, dishes when a post picks him up, and that post player is a good quick passer (this was me), then that guy beats the help on that back side. If we see that we'll call an audible.

What age group?

6th grade

I was gonna ask the same thing. Sounds like you're doing kids a disservice in the name of winning that won't help them be very good at basketball later on. Without more info.

How so? We've got some real good guard defenders, so put them in a position to be successful and wreak some havoc. By far our least talented player had his best game of the season doing this- he's an unathletic little irish guy and we put him on someone 6" bigger and stronger / faster than him. Our instructions- 'be a pest,' if he beats you off the dribble we got protection behind you. His guy didn't score (don't even recall a clean look) while he net 4 rebounds, 3 steals, 2 points and an assist (both off his steals).

You shouldn't be playing anything but m2m at that age

Put another way: junk defenses don't improve players. And they don't teach skills.

And they aren't a useful thing to know how to do because, quite frankly, they're very easy to pick up whenever and should really only be utilized < 5% of the time in an organized setting. Anything more and the team trying one will get killed.

They work because kids are too young and weak to make the basketball plays that beat them (e.g., a skip pass) and talent disparities are so huge that if you can just take out the one or two k ids who know what they're doing somewhat you've destroyed an offense. At which point not only are you hurting your own kids' development, but you're wasting everyone's time on the other team because they're not learning much either.

 

[MAC_32]

Thanks, I appreciate the feedback. I'll be mindful of it over the final few weeks and reflect upon it during our offseason. That said, while I think your minds are in the right place, knowing what I know about our guys, I think you're making poor assumptions instead of asking good questions. For example...

as demonstrated by your response that your least talented player has his best game. He's not gaining skill or athleticism, he's not learning how to play defense and work around his shortcomings by, for example, improving anticipation or reading a defender's hips.

...what you described is exactly what he did. Why didn't he do it before? Quite simply, he lacked confidence. I'm a little unathletic irish guy, I can't compete with these kids. Yes, you can! We put him in a position to do what we've seen him do in practice, just adjusted his mind set, then all of a sudden instead of hacking after he gets beat because he's playing on his heels, he's reading his opponents keys and fearlessly swatting the ball away at the top of the key then hitting a wing for a breakaway layup.

Regardless, if the community doesn't extract benefit from sharing stuff like this here, just say so, and I'll bow out.

 

[Instinctive]

Thanks, I appreciate the feedback. I'll be mindful of it over the final few weeks and reflect upon it during our offseason. That said, while I think your minds are in the right place, knowing what I know about our guys, I think you're making poor assumptions instead of asking good questions. For example...

Regardless, if the community doesn't extract benefit from sharing stuff like this here, just say so, and I'll bow out.

All I think anyone would ask of you.

FWIW - I didn't make any assumptions. I took exactly what you said happened and evaluated it based on my NCAA Division 1 and NBA experiences. ETA: not to belabor it, but if you thin suddenly he was learning and developing and all it took was confidence, I don't see why you couldn't give him the same confidence by emphasizing a real help scheme and telling him the team is with him in the same way.

I'm sure there's benefit - but I think you might be missing that the benefit is to you and the kids you coach that you've got a few people on here who have coached/do coach at fairly high levels. There's a reason I wasn't the only person with the exact same reaction, and that Navin at least I know for sure coaches at a decent level of play. As for me, I do derive some personal satisfaction from thinking I can make a positive impact on someone learning to coach and through them, on their players.

Therefore, I wouldn't bow out unless you just don't want to learn. My two cents, at least, and maybe they aren't worth that!

 

[MAC_32]

I'm sure there's benefit - but I think you might be missing that the benefit is to you

I'm gonna bring something forward from a few pages ago.

we surveyed our now 6th grade team before the season, is your priority to have fun? or is it to learn the game? develop skills? win? They answered as we expected to which we responded - then that's how we'll coach you.

When I say...

I think you're making poor assumptions instead of asking good questions

...this is what I'm getting at. To go beyond insinuate and outright say I (we) are doing this for me (us) is how you get someone who would otherwise listen to correctly tune you out.

I took exactly what you said happened and evaluated it based on my NCAA Division 1 and NBA experiences

That said, it'd be fair to suggest how we coach each of our players is a little different. i.e. our raw out of shape rim protector? As luck would have it, he's one of the 3 in our regular car pool, so I've had opportunities to have a lot of good conversations with him. I also coached him in both baseball and football. He's an okay baseball player and could be a great football player if he wanted to be, but he doesn't. He came out for basketball because of his friends and he decided playing offensive line isn't for him. He's the only one of the 7 that said fun before winning in our pre-season survey. I've been mindful of that as I've watched him develop this season in hoops, but I've seen the lightbulb turn on as he's experienced some success. He's not just a big body, but he's naturally light on his feet and has developed a devastating up-and-under. My heart filled when his mom texted me over xmas break both asking about camps we send our kid too and inquiring about help with conditioning in the summer. Because HE asked her. Which is a good reminder...

not to belabor it, but if you thin suddenly he was learning and developing and all it took was confidence, I don't see why you couldn't give him the same confidence by emphasizing a real help scheme and telling him the team is with him in the same way.

...that these are just 12 year olds. Some of these kids aren't playing in high school and most won't play beyond. Just tell this untalented kid to trust his teammates. Ooooooooh. Kay. You seriously don't think we tried that? Again, assumption. When you assume, you make an *** out of you and me. We've been working with him for 2 years, the position we put him in last weekend resulted in him playing in a game like we'd never seen before. A good youth coach celebrates that. Much like a good youth coach celebrates a new (but talented) kid that's finally having some fun playing sports and as a result decides he wants to get better.

While I'm always interested in skills / x's & o's development, I'm left thinking you could learn something from me when it comes to how to connect with youth. Are you willing to listen though...

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I'm sure there's benefit - but I think you might be missing that the benefit is to you

I'm gonna bring something forward from a few pages ago.

we surveyed our now 6th grade team before the season, is your priority to have fun? or is it to learn the game? develop skills? win? They answered as we expected to which we responded - then that's how we'll coach you.

When I say...

I think you're making poor assumptions instead of asking good questions

...this is what I'm getting at. To go beyond insinuate and outright say I (we) are doing this for me (us) is how you get someone who would otherwise listen to correctly tune you out.

I took exactly what you said happened and evaluated it based on my NCAA Division 1 and NBA experiences

That said, it'd be fair to suggest how we coach each of our players is a little different. i.e. our raw out of shape rim protector? As luck would have it, he's one of the 3 in our regular car pool, so I've had opportunities to have a lot of good conversations with him. I also coached him in both baseball and football. He's an okay baseball player and could be a great football player if he wanted to be, but he doesn't. He came out for basketball because of his friends and he decided playing offensive line isn't for him. He's the only one of the 7 that said fun before winning in our pre-season survey. I've been mindful of that as I've watched him develop this season in hoops, but I've seen the lightbulb turn on as he's experienced some success. He's not just a big body, but he's naturally light on his feet and has developed a devastating up-and-under. My heart filled when his mom texted me over xmas break both asking about camps we send our kid too and inquiring about help with conditioning in the summer. Because HE asked her. Which is a good reminder...

not to belabor it, but if you thin suddenly he was learning and developing and all it took was confidence, I don't see why you couldn't give him the same confidence by emphasizing a real help scheme and telling him the team is with him in the same way.

...that these are just 12 year olds. Some of these kids aren't playing in high school and most won't play beyond. Just tell this untalented kid to trust his teammates. Ooooooooh. Kay. You seriously don't think we tried that? Again, assumption. When you assume, you make an *** out of you and me. We've been working with him for 2 years, the position we put him in last weekend resulted in him playing in a game like we'd never seen before. A good youth coach celebrates that. Much like a good youth coach celebrates a new (but talented) kid that's finally having some fun playing sports and as a result decides he wants to get better.

While I'm always interested in skills / x's & o's development, I'm left thinking you could learn something from me when it comes to how to connect with youth. Are you willing to listen though...

Not here to argue with you but all basketball below high school age should be mandatory man 2 man defense. I get your junk defense is designed to win and I get you have players that probably stink at guarding someone one on one. And that kid might never play high school ball but I would argue with a proper youth coach giving him the necessary skills, plenty of kids develop late. There are also other kids on the court that have to deal with some junk defense that easily works in youth basketball because kids can't physically throw skip passes and do the things necessary to beat junk/zone defenses.

Asking kids that age what they prefer is laughable. Don't mean to be harsh but they have/need a coach for a reason. How many 12 year olds know the difference in needing skill development or just winning/fun? Ask anyone with a coaching background and they will tell you all kids before high school should be focused on skill development, play m2m, and get equal playing time.

 

[Instinctive]

I'm sure there's benefit - but I think you might be missing that the benefit is to you

I'm gonna bring something forward from a few pages ago.

we surveyed our now 6th grade team before the season, is your priority to have fun? or is it to learn the game? develop skills? win? They answered as we expected to which we responded - then that's how we'll coach you.

When I say...

I think you're making poor assumptions instead of asking good questions

...this is what I'm getting at. To go beyond insinuate and outright say I (we) are doing this for me (us) is how you get someone who would otherwise listen to correctly tune you out.

I took exactly what you said happened and evaluated it based on my NCAA Division 1 and NBA experiences

That said, it'd be fair to suggest how we coach each of our players is a little different. i.e. our raw out of shape rim protector? As luck would have it, he's one of the 3 in our regular car pool, so I've had opportunities to have a lot of good conversations with him. I also coached him in both baseball and football. He's an okay baseball player and could be a great football player if he wanted to be, but he doesn't. He came out for basketball because of his friends and he decided playing offensive line isn't for him. He's the only one of the 7 that said fun before winning in our pre-season survey. I've been mindful of that as I've watched him develop this season in hoops, but I've seen the lightbulb turn on as he's experienced some success. He's not just a big body, but he's naturally light on his feet and has developed a devastating up-and-under. My heart filled when his mom texted me over xmas break both asking about camps we send our kid too and inquiring about help with conditioning in the summer. Because HE asked her. Which is a good reminder...

not to belabor it, but if you thin suddenly he was learning and developing and all it took was confidence, I don't see why you couldn't give him the same confidence by emphasizing a real help scheme and telling him the team is with him in the same way.

...that these are just 12 year olds. Some of these kids aren't playing in high school and most won't play beyond. Just tell this untalented kid to trust his teammates. Ooooooooh. Kay. You seriously don't think we tried that? Again, assumption. When you assume, you make an *** out of you and me. We've been working with him for 2 years, the position we put him in last weekend resulted in him playing in a game like we'd never seen before. A good youth coach celebrates that. Much like a good youth coach celebrates a new (but talented) kid that's finally having some fun playing sports and as a result decides he wants to get better.

While I'm always interested in skills / x's & o's development, I'm left thinking you could learn something from me when it comes to how to connect with youth. Are you willing to listen though...

It seems you've become quite defensive (that's an inference, not an assumption, for what its worth). I'll just point out that I have not insinuated AT ALL, that "it" is about you. I very clearly said junk defense is to try and win, not to develop players. I made zero comment on any other motivation. Just because it's what 12 year olds said they want doesn't make it less true, friend. I haven't found them to be the best decision-makers, typically.

I can see you didn't come to learn. You didn't come to accept criticism, and that's ok. I'm sorry you feel so attacked at someone pointing out what they know from experience is a disservice to these kids when it comes to basketball. The one assumption I DID make is that you have positive intent both coming here and with your kids - it's obvious you care about them.

I don't appreciate the dripping sarcasm. Please do better. I don't appreciate the personal attacks either - not that it really matters, but I am 100% certain I have worked with a LOT more youth, especially from disadvantaged backgrounds, so it is at this point that you should take a deep breath, apologize, and take your own advice about assumptions.

With your response here, I may amend my previous answer to when you asked if you should stay or go. The thread may be better off if you bowed out, unless you bring a lot more humility and civility. I am but one opinion though, not the arbiter of the board.

ETA: it seems Ramblin has already shared quite the same sentiment while I parsed my words. Probably a sign that it's not just me, Mac.

 

[MAC_32]

all basketball below high school age should be mandatory man 2 man defense

...why?

 

[Instinctive]

all basketball below high school age should be mandatory man 2 man defense

...why?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

all basketball below high school age should be mandatory man 2 man defense

...why?

Because all kids should have the chance at development of skills and learning how to play the game. You shouldn't decide who will or won't play high school basketball when they are youth. Kids development at different rates and ages. I coached a girl once that in 6th grade had barely dribbled a basketball before. I would have told you then and there she would never play high school ball. She scored 17 points in a state championship game as a freshman in high school. She had coaches invest in her with skill work and teaching her the game and she worked her butt off as well. I'm almost positive had her coach treated her as if she had no chance to play in high school she would have never played in high school.

Why m2m defense? Because it teaches kids how to guard people. You can sit in a zone at that level and watch kids throw bricks up all day long. That's not a good strategy or doing good for anyone. You can press and trap bad players and steal the ball from them. Who gets better doing that? You can play a lot of 2-man ball with your best player and let him/her score at will at that level. No one else develops and that kid isn't being challenged either.

 

[MAC_32]

I am 100% certain I have worked with a LOT more youth, especially from disadvantaged backgrounds

Volume? Maybe, I don't know you, but to suggest your voice carries more weight than mine is at best disingenuous. My career is in education, primarily with the impoverished, of which these kids are not, and I've been coaching many youth sports for a long, long time. Perhaps you're more adept at developing AAU? Maybe that's this thread's intent? I don't know, I'm just thinking out-loud, you've been quick to criticize, but haven't expanded beyond that. Perhaps you should. Or...

The thread may be better off if you bowed out

...maybe I should just take you advice.

 

[MAC_32]

Because all kids should have the chance at development of skills and learning how to play the game. You shouldn't decide who will or won't play high school basketball when they are youth.

Bad assumption.

Kids development at different rates and ages.

Agreed.

I coached a girl once that in 6th grade had barely dribbled a basketball before. I would have told you then and there she would never play high school ball. She scored 17 points in a state championship game as a freshman in high school.

I coached a 6th grade girl in track that couldn't finish 100 meters without sucking wind that is now being recruited by D1 schools.

I'm almost positive had her coach treated her as if she had no chance to play in high school she would have never played in high school.

It would be a very...very big mistake to imply this is how we treat our lesser talented players.

Why m2m defense? Because it teaches kids how to guard people. You can sit in a zone at that level and watch kids throw bricks up all day long.

I was thrilled our zone defense didn't work (we had a kid out sick with only one bench player) the one time we tried it in large part because of this reason.

You can press and trap bad players and steal the ball from them.

Are guards in 6th grade usually bad players where you live? Cause they aren't here.

You can play a lot of 2-man ball with your best player and let him/her score at will at that level. No one else develops and that kid isn't being challenged either.

A comment I made after one of our wins this year, some things I'm most proud of about this win- they started fast, you responded ferociously, all of you, everyone scored, everyone had an assist, and no one scored in double digits. That's team basketball.

---

When you assume, you make an *** out of you and me.

 

[Instinctive]

Because all kids should have the chance at development of skills and learning how to play the game. You shouldn't decide who will or won't play high school basketball when they are youth.

Bad assumption.

Kids development at different rates and ages.

Agreed.

I coached a girl once that in 6th grade had barely dribbled a basketball before. I would have told you then and there she would never play high school ball. She scored 17 points in a state championship game as a freshman in high school.

I coached a 6th grade girl in track that couldn't finish 100 meters without sucking wind that is now being recruited by D1 schools.

I'm almost positive had her coach treated her as if she had no chance to play in high school she would have never played in high school.

It would be a very...very big mistake to imply this is how we treat our lesser talented players.

Why m2m defense? Because it teaches kids how to guard people. You can sit in a zone at that level and watch kids throw bricks up all day long.

I was thrilled our zone defense didn't work (we had a kid out sick with only one bench player) the one time we tried it in large part because of this reason.

You can press and trap bad players and steal the ball from them.

Are guards in 6th grade usually bad players where you live? Cause they aren't here.

You can play a lot of 2-man ball with your best player and let him/her score at will at that level. No one else develops and that kid isn't being challenged either.

A comment I made after one of our wins this year, some things I'm most proud of about this win- they started fast, you responded ferociously, all of you, everyone scored, everyone had an assist, and no one scored in double digits. That's team basketball.

---

When you assume, you make an *** out of you and me.

How did you manage to make a post where you asked a question, someone took the time to answer it in depth, with great intelligence, without referring to your specific actions at all, and make it about you?

Come on man, this is laughable now. I thought you were heeding some "advice" (which, FWIW, was an opinion, not advice).

If you pause and take a step back, you may notice there's only one person acting like an " *** " here. Which from prior posting history I know you to be better than. Well, I assumed.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Because all kids should have the chance at development of skills and learning how to play the game. You shouldn't decide who will or won't play high school basketball when they are youth.

Bad assumption.

Kids development at different rates and ages.

Agreed.

I coached a girl once that in 6th grade had barely dribbled a basketball before. I would have told you then and there she would never play high school ball. She scored 17 points in a state championship game as a freshman in high school.

I coached a 6th grade girl in track that couldn't finish 100 meters without sucking wind that is now being recruited by D1 schools.

I'm almost positive had her coach treated her as if she had no chance to play in high school she would have never played in high school.

It would be a very...very big mistake to imply this is how we treat our lesser talented players.

Why m2m defense? Because it teaches kids how to guard people. You can sit in a zone at that level and watch kids throw bricks up all day long.

I was thrilled our zone defense didn't work (we had a kid out sick with only one bench player) the one time we tried it in large part because of this reason.

You can press and trap bad players and steal the ball from them.

Are guards in 6th grade usually bad players where you live? Cause they aren't here.

You can play a lot of 2-man ball with your best player and let him/her score at will at that level. No one else develops and that kid isn't being challenged either.

A comment I made after one of our wins this year, some things I'm most proud of about this win- they started fast, you responded ferociously, all of you, everyone scored, everyone had an assist, and no one scored in double digits. That's team basketball.

---

When you assume, you make an *** out of you and me.

Yeah, I tried my best. You seem very defensive and come off as if you're taking feedback personally and as if this all about you. You contradict yourself a lot too. Above, you talk about players not being very good but here insinuate you're coaching 10 future All-Americans. You also mentioned a rim protector. There aren't rim protectors in 6th grade lol. Maybe net protectors.

I'll leave it at this. Instead of arguing with everyone here and calling us asses, go do some research and get feedback from some people with a lot more experience than you or I. There are plenty of coaches on twitter or that run websites. Poll them about 6th graders playing m2m vs junk zones. Be open minded.

 

[MAC_32]

How did you manage to make a post where you asked a question, someone took the time to answer it in depth, with great intelligence, without referring to your specific actions at all, and make it about you?

Help me understand how that response made this about me...

Above, you talk about players not being very good but here insinuate you're coaching 10 future All-Americans

...cause this ain't it...

You also mentioned a rim protector. There aren't rim protectors in 6th grade lol. Maybe net protectors.

...seriously...

Instead of arguing with everyone here and calling us asses, go do some research and get feedback from some people with a lot more experience than you or I. There are plenty of coaches on twitter or that run websites. Poll them about 6th graders playing m2m vs junk zones. Be open minded.

My original intention was to share an idea with others. It evolved to considering learning some information that may or may not have conformed some biases. That's not what transpired. I can only control the words I write. I can't control how readers interpret them. You all jumped to conclusions about...well, I don't know what. But if your interpretation is that I've already put these kids in all american boxes and just running out the clock then nothing positive can be gleaned from this. I'd say do better, but if that's where you are then you ain't listening anyway.

 

[Instinctive]

How did you manage to make a post where you asked a question, someone took the time to answer it in depth, with great intelligence, without referring to your specific actions at all, and make it about you?

Help me understand how that response made this about me...

Above, you talk about players not being very good but here insinuate you're coaching 10 future All-Americans

...cause this ain't it...

You also mentioned a rim protector. There aren't rim protectors in 6th grade lol. Maybe net protectors.

...seriously...

The two quotes you have here came AFTER the response in question. Hope that helps you understand, as requested.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

How did you manage to make a post where you asked a question, someone took the time to answer it in depth, with great intelligence, without referring to your specific actions at all, and make it about you?

Help me understand how that response made this about me...

Above, you talk about players not being very good but here insinuate you're coaching 10 future All-Americans

...cause this ain't it...

You also mentioned a rim protector. There aren't rim protectors in 6th grade lol. Maybe net protectors.

...seriously...

Instead of arguing with everyone here and calling us asses, go do some research and get feedback from some people with a lot more experience than you or I. There are plenty of coaches on twitter or that run websites. Poll them about 6th graders playing m2m vs junk zones. Be open minded.

My original intention was to share an idea with others. It evolved to considering learning some information that may or may not have conformed some biases. That's not what transpired. I can only control the words I write. I can't control how readers interpret them. You all jumped to conclusions about...well, I don't know what. But if your interpretation is that I've already put these kids in all american boxes and just running out the clock then nothing positive can be gleaned from this. I'd say do better, but if that's where you are then you ain't listening anyway.

I don't feel like quote posting everything so I'll copy and paste. Here's your first post -if I missed a previous one I apologize.

"
We're toying with a junk defense one step beyond triangle and 2. We have a sample size of one, but our 3 chaser defense yielded a 27-1 halftime lead over a team that was 5-1 (8-2 including tournaments) that had a +107 diff going into it. Nothing ground breaking, just fits our guys well- our big guys are on the block, and the other 3 play man- we call it chaos.

7 man team
4 littles for 3 spots- 1 is not athletic but feisty (avg 1 steal per game), other 3 are exceptional defenders (avg 10 steals per game)
3 bigs for 2 spots on the block- 2 have some range / athleticism (both can play chaos role), other 1 is solely a rim protector

We won't deploy it against everyone, the team we destroyed had 2 alphas / 1 good post player / 2 shooters / 2 complimentary players / 2...guys. Basically forced the ball to the other 6 guys, sometimes uncovered, which based on their body language was unexpected, they got flustered, the shots they did get were rushed / off balance, and their core 3 were washed away. Mixed in some of it off as press as well. It's vulnerable to back side cuts, which they finally hit in the 2nd half, but by the time they realized it the game was over.

I stop short of calling this our new base defense, but we're opening in it until further notice. As we emphasized to them, and will re-emphasize again, this will work as long as we take care of the ball on O and get back on D when we don't score."

This whole thing is about winning with junk defense and not much else. Here's a subsequent post.

Experimented with it and a box-and-1 in one game, but it was an abject disaster. Only one loss this year so far and that one was ugly. That said, glad we did it, because it led to this idea. Our post guys are better with zone concepts (against some opponents anyway), but our guards? Not at all. We're a defense creates offense sorta team and all zone did was neuter them.

This junk defense allows them freedom to be aggressive, knowing that if they get caught with their hand in the cookie jar, they got help. It also masks bad habits of our post guys. I mentioned the one (conditioning), but our two more athletic ones have a tendency to get grabby, especially as the intensity ramps up. We leverage their aggressiveness in press, but this D gives them a moment to breathe, so hopefully early foul trouble can be avoided, then we can consider unleashing them in the guard role as the games goes on if there's a matchup to exploit.


Here, you admit your bigs aren't good defenders. Your first junk zone didn't work so you come up with some weird nonsense defense to hide your bigs and let your guards play. Sounds to me like you need to teach your bigs defense.

Everything I've read after this point is you defending your coaching decisions and arguing with every piece of advice you got. So, yeah I guess all of us need to do better while you sit in your basement scheming some junk defense to hide weak players in 6th grade basketball. I even answered your question about why m2m and you just ignored it and called me an ***. I think you've made your intentions clear. Most 6th grade coaches bragging about their record or scores in a game usually are all about themselves. Have a good night.

 

[MAC_32]

How did you manage to make a post where you asked a question, someone took the time to answer it in depth, with great intelligence, without referring to your specific actions at all, and make it about you?

Help me understand how that response made this about me...

Above, you talk about players not being very good but here insinuate you're coaching 10 future All-Americans

...cause this ain't it...

You also mentioned a rim protector. There aren't rim protectors in 6th grade lol. Maybe net protectors.

...seriously...

The two quotes you have here came AFTER the response in question. Hope that helps you understand, as requested.

Well, it doesn't. Our team has...

This is his first year playing (he's the rim protector), and he's gotten real good real fast for a rook (7 ppg / 6 rpg despite limited mins), but he's not in good shape (which is why his mins are limited). It's getting to season's end, so better conditioning is a next year thing.

As luck would have it, he's one of the 3 in our regular car pool, so I've had opportunities to have a lot of good conversations with him. I also coached him in both baseball and football. He's an okay baseball player and could be a great football player if he wanted to be, but he doesn't. He came out for basketball because of his friends and he decided playing offensive line isn't for him. He's the only one of the 7 that said fun before winning in our pre-season survey. I've been mindful of that as I've watched him develop this season in hoops, but I've seen the lightbulb turn on as he's experienced some success. He's not just a big body, but he's naturally light on his feet and has developed a devastating up-and-under. My heart filled when his mom texted me over xmas break both asking about camps we send our kid too and inquiring about help with conditioning in the summer. Because HE asked her.

..that.

If it were you, how would you suggest managing a 12 yr old that you have watched quit (walked off the field) before that is not in the physical condition to run up-and-down the floor and play > 80% (maybe) for more than a few minutes at a time? I've never seen that kid smile while playing sports before. Dude's been grinning ear-to-ear throughout (okay, not always) this season, and unlike anything prior, is actively seeking out opportunities to get better. I similarly...

Why didn't he do it before? Quite simply, he lacked confidence. I'm a little unathletic irish guy, I can't compete with these kids. Yes, you can! We put him in a position to do what we've seen him do in practice, just adjusted his mind set, then all of a sudden instead of hacking after he gets beat because he's playing on his heels, he's reading his opponents keys and fearlessly swatting the ball away at the top of the key then hitting a wing for a breakaway layup.

...never saw that kid light up on a basketball court like he did after this game. The light bulb turned on. Finally! And based on this feedback, I should feel...ashamed for that?

Benefits of youth sports

Maybe I'll circle back to this dialogue with a clearer head in the future with a different mindset, but my immediate takeaway is that basketball development is being prioritized at the expense of things that I think should be more important.

 

[Instinctive]

...never saw that kid light up on a basketball court like he did after this game. The light bulb turned on. Finally! And based on this feedback, I should feel...ashamed for that?

Benefits of youth sports

Maybe I'll circle back to this dialogue with a clearer head in the future with a different mindset, but my immediate takeaway is that basketball development is being prioritized at the expense of things that I think should be more important.

Nobody is shaming you. Thats why we think you're being defensive. The room is there for you, clearly, to learn that a good coach should be able to do what youre doing AND not hurt the kids' development. Sounds like you're having a great impact on the person, which is why we want to help you round it out.

The bolded is one of the smartest and most self aware things youve posted today.

The italicized is the misunderstanding. You should be able to do those things and develop the kid, not just as a person but as a player. I don't think anyone here has said it's either/or, except you.


ETA: I cut out the rest of the post above because it didn't really make sense or address the topic and was tough to follow.

 

[MAC_32]

Here, you admit your bigs aren't good defenders.

Actually, I think they are good defenders. Different, too. One struggles with his emotions, another with focus (parents amidst a messy divorce), while the other is poorly conditioned. From what I observed last weekend, this defense helped all of them. It put them in a position to breathe and us to put the former two selectively in man-to-man when the lineup / their emotions dictated.

Everything I've read after this point is you defending your coaching decisions and arguing with every piece of advice you got.

Either I need to do a better job writing or you reading, maybe both...

I even answered your question about why m2m and you just ignored it and called me an ***

...but no you didn't...

You shouldn't decide who will or won't play high school basketball when they are youth.

...you wrote that. I expect better.

 

[acarey50]

This article is worth the read: Youth Defense in Basketball

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Here, you admit your bigs aren't good defenders.

Actually, I think they are good defenders. Different, too. One struggles with his emotions, another with focus (parents amidst a messy divorce), while the other is poorly conditioned. From what I observed last weekend, this defense helped all of them. It put them in a position to breathe and us to put the former two selectively in man-to-man when the lineup / their emotions dictated.

Everything I've read after this point is you defending your coaching decisions and arguing with every piece of advice you got.

Either I need to do a better job writing or you reading, maybe both...

I even answered your question about why m2m and you just ignored it and called me an ***

...but no you didn't...

You shouldn't decide who will or won't play high school basketball when they are youth.

...you wrote that. I expect better.

I’ll say it again. You as a 6th grade coach should not be deciding which kids have a high school future and which ones don’t. You don’t belong in coaching to be honest if you’re doubling down on that BS.

You’re talking about emotions of a 6th graders. Jeez dude. Listen to yourself.

 

[MAC_32]

I’ll say it again. You as a 6th grade coach should not be deciding which kids have a high school future and which ones don’t. You don’t belong in coaching to be honest if you’re doubling down on that BS.

And I'll say it again. If this is what you think we're doing, then...

Either I need to do a better job writing or you reading, maybe both...

 

[Instinctive]

I’ll say it again. You as a 6th grade coach should not be deciding which kids have a high school future and which ones don’t. You don’t belong in coaching to be honest if you’re doubling down on that BS.

And I'll say it again. If this is what you think we're doing, then...

Either I need to do a better job writing or you reading, maybe both...

I fully agree with everything he's said. It's clearly what you are writing. We can't know what's in your head only what you write. How many more need to chime in for you to admit it and stop being rude?

 

[Instinctive]

Here, you admit your bigs aren't good defenders.

Actually, I think they are good defenders. Different, too. One struggles with his emotions, another with focus (parents amidst a messy divorce), while the other is poorly conditioned. From what I observed last weekend, this defense helped all of them. It put them in a position to breathe and us to put the former two selectively in man-to-man when the lineup / their emotions dictated.

Everything I've read after this point is you defending your coaching decisions and arguing with every piece of advice you got.

Either I need to do a better job writing or you reading, maybe both...

I even answered your question about why m2m and you just ignored it and called me an ***

...but no you didn't...

You shouldn't decide who will or won't play high school basketball when they are youth.

...you wrote that. I expect better.

You continue to conflate performing better in a game with getting better at basketball based on what you write here. I've bolded it again because this weird break up all the quotes post style is very cumbersome to deal with.

 

[SWC]

guys winning doesnt mean anyone is getting better at the youth level i cant tell you how many times in my past 20 years of coaching that i have seen the best team in 3 4 5 6 7 grades be absolutely horrible by the time they get to high school at that age the top thing and the only thing all you should care about is development and making sure the kids fall in love with the sport and keep coming back i will tell you a story we had a kid on my gradeschool teams who would literally roll in off of the farm and play in jeans with god knows what on them and he smelled like hay the whole thing and boy did he get made fun of he was uncoordinated and all that but our coach played everyone and all we did is work on fundamentals with everyone dribbling around chairs in the gym and running the weave so much i wake up thinking about him yelling get around get around at me and we lost a bunch of games but we went bowling and had pizza a lot and we would watch games on a black and white tv and little by little we got better and by the time we were playing high school ball farmboy had stuck it out and was now taller than everyone and guess what throwing around bales of hay makes you pretty damned strong and pushing cattle in and out of a barn gets you pretty damned tough and mean and he found his coordiantion and new the fundamentals and had a great base level of skills and all the kids that really gave him hell had either been cut or quit playing or sat on the bench and watched him play and bitched about it and on his back we won a lot of games and that my friends is why you never give up on a kid and never stop developing them because at the youth level you have no idea who is what no matter how close to john wooden you think you are take that to the bank brohans

 

[Gally]

It really seems like to me that people are talking past each other. Lot's of good information on both sides that is being lost in the bickering. At that age group in a rec league scenario there is a lot going on. Not every kid on the team is there for the same reason. Not every kid even wants to be there and could be forced to play by their parents. As a coach at that age group you do need to find a way to connect with each player and what works for them to get them to buy into working and trying to get better. Not every kid wants to do that. So you need to balance that with still trying to make it fun for everyone while also trying to improve each kids ability in the sport. It is a delicate balance.

@MAC_32 I asked the same question a few pages ago with respect why everyone was so adamant about playing only M2M at these age groups. I had never understood the purpose of that as I believed that all defenses use the same fundamentals at it's core as far as positioning, footwork, etc and that a good base of those fundamentals allows any defense to be played. But I also understood the point that at younger ages zone defenses work because the skills/strength of the kids aren't good enough to beat the holes in a zone so it is falsely effective and can lead to bad habits as kids get older and stronger. I kind of equate it to Little League where coaches send their runners to second on a walk because they know the defense isn't strong/skilled enough to make the play. That teaches nothing but bad things to the runners and once the skills/strength catch up that runner will not know how to run the bases properly. I think it's similar here.

So, while I was never a man defense only coach, I tried to teach man techniques for the most part because that is the fundamentals that they need to learn. But I also understand that sometimes to keep kids interests you do need to change things up occasionally - especially for kids that are not ever going to basketball players. I had one kid (last guy in the draft) that was so bad athletically and conceptually that I had no idea what to do with him. Like you, I would talk to each kid early to see why they were playing and what they wanted to get out of the year. This kid did not want to be there and hated sports. His parents were making him try basketball against his wishes (this was 3rd/4th grade). I couldn't get through to him to understand how to play defense at all. It was too overwhelming for him to the point he didn't want to do anything. His brain just didn't work that way. So, I ended up having him just be a chaser. I told him I wanted him to follow the ball and just pester whoever had the ball. He didn't have to think at all. He loved it. It got him participating in the game and doing things. Once he got that glimmer of fun I was able to then start to teach him the fundamentals of defense with footwork, body positioning, etc. He started to get it and he got better and learned solid fundamentals.

All that to say I understand that you have to connect with each kid differently and find a way to get them to pay attention, want to be there, and want to get better. But once you can get that desire it's time to go to the fundamentals and M2M is the best way to teach those fundamentals because once those are down the more exotic looks become better because they know what they are doing.

So I think the question of why is everyone pushing the M2M only philosophy for younger kids is because that gives them the best foundation for the game and helps develop all around skills needed for higher levels of play. So while a few of the players may never play at the higher levels because they are just there because their parents are making them be there it is a disservice to the ones that want to go on if you don't give them the sound fundamental base skills because the crazy defenses work better at the younger ages. It is a fine line to dance around when you have kids that aren't engaged. Winning and crazy plays are more fun for sure but for basketball skill development (which is what should be the focus of the coach at these ages) is what matters most to the coach.

 

[MAC_32]

It really seems like to me that people are talking past each other.

I'm listening to what they're saying, but it is very clear they're not listening to what I'm saying, and are only interested in lecturing, so my intention was to step away. Key word, was. Thanks for sharing what you did. You get it.

In a vacuum, is M2M the best way to develop skills? Yes, that's not new information. Youth coaching ain't done in a vacuum though.

I understand that you have to connect with each kid differently

If our team was comprised of seven kids like our son then coaching them would be easy. He's a hyper-competitive energizer bunny always striving to get better and it's always 75 degrees and sunny in his head (another coach's words, not mine, and he hit the bullseye). Go play M2M, start with basic offensive sets, eventually we'll add press, then layers to the offensive scheme. That's not our team though. We have one other player I'd equate to him (moody though) and five others that are wildly different from one another. I've coached most of them in multiple sports and have developed a better idea what makes them tick and what doesn't. Ultimately, what is the most important thing for athletics at this age?

So you need to balance that with still trying to make it fun for everyone while also trying to improve each kids ability in the sport. It is a delicate balance.

Fun. What is 'fun' from one person to the next varies, but that is the core. Things like adversity and failure are good things, but too much of it can be detrimental. If they're not having fun, then they're less likely to put the work in to get better, especially when not in organized team activities, and ultimately keep playing. As coaches, we have many responsibilities, one of which is skill development. And it's a whole lot easier to teach skill development to a kid that's engaged, interested, and having fun than it is someone metaphorically staring off into la-la-land. We observed this dynamic with our team last month, which is something we also noticed last year. Not gonna rehash all details, but they needed something new to get out of a midseason swoon. We did it and it worked. Based on what we saw in practices earlier this month, we saw the same thing coming, so we got in front of it.

I understand that none of what I am writing is likely to sway someone with a dissenting opinion, but there are A LOT better ways to express that then what transpired up-thread.

 

[Chadstroma]

21-1
45-12

We played this game Tuesday night. The highlight of the game was my one kid who has not scored this season (not for a lack of trying, we have fed him the ball a lot, he is 0-24 on shots and has trouble even catching the ball so he has been fed probably double that but fumbled the ball) finally made a free throw. It was later in the game so we were already up big and there was very little applause for all the other points.... except this one. Everyone, parents, kids and coaches roared when it went down. I thought if the other team was confused but then I think they probably figured it out by just watching him play that that was a momentous occasion.

We have a tournament we are entered in. It is an A team tourney with teams from all over Chicago. Many of which I have never come into contact with or seen play or even know anything about. Heck, for most of them, it is the first time I have even heard of the school. A few of the schools in our league (A teams) are in it. We are borrowing 4 players from our other B team. 1 is a solidly A level player, another is really on the bubble and a third is a good B level player. The 4th is solidly a B player... he is the son of the other teams coach. He is the one that knew of the tourny and brought up the idea to me for us to enter, add those players and he would pay the entry fee. Due to conflicts, I will not have my normal PG and my other A player on our team who is our top scorer. That means my son moves to PG and will need to play the whole game as I will not have anyone who can really play PG. That is far from ideal. If the team is a half way decent A team it should be a loss for us with my son playing out of position, these additions not use to playing together and full court press which my boys are not use to (I spent our one practice with the other boys going over a press break and trying to get them use to our offense and inbounds). The other Dads are much more optimistic than I am on our chances. I will give it my best and hopefully my boys do too so we shall see.

After that we have 4 more season games and then playoffs. We also have a tournament entry that is a B bracket which I believe all our teams in our normal leagues so we should be able to run the table in that.

 

[Chadstroma]

I am an adamant proponent of M2M. I refuse to play zone in youth levels. I start off telling the parents and assistant coaches that are new to working with me that we will play M2M even if it costs us games. That being said, I would say as you get to Jr High ages then a junk defense is 'allowable' as long as M2M is your 'base' defense, your kids have a good understanding of playing M2M and that when you install the junk you actually teach the concepts and whys to the kids versus 'stand here and guard this area'. I do think that that can help increase their basketball IQ. Explaining and teaching how and when and why you will use the junk versus a M2M is, in itself, a teaching/development opportunity for the kids. That is my take.

 

[Chadstroma]

21-2
20-27

It was actually a pretty good game. We went down 0-6 to start as the team was kind of learning to play together but then we got on a roll. We had it within 2 into the 4th. Then they pulled away again and we brought it back to 5 with about two minutes left. My son had a few too many turnovers but that largely was him trying to create some offense at point which is out of position for him but he was my best ball handler so I had no choice. He scored 6, a few assists and one great steal. Him and my one of the boys from the other B team were clearly the two best players on the court but their five overall had an advantage over our five on the court with overall talent. The other boy was the tallest on the court and I tried to get us to feed it to him but they were playing a 2 3 zone and doubling him from any entry. One of the B team players, who is a pretty good shooter, had about 5 shots he took that were millimeter type misses. If we had more than 45 minutes together- maybe I could have got them to play better together but most of that time we worked on press break as none of my guys are use to it as the league rules for B are no press other than the last 2 minutes and for my team, my guys can beat anyone off dribble (and the other team did not press at all). Overall, the entire team fought hard and did not give up. I do think if we had my other A player from my team that he would have brought the extra offensive firepower we would have needed to turn that game in our favor. It was very clear that my son and the other top player from the other B team 'belong' in the A teams.

 

[Chadstroma]

2-4-2
12-0

My little guys have really been developing. We dominated rebounding, played very good defense and they did a pretty good job of passing. We came out in our second possession with a give and go that was very impressive and my son scored. 4 of our boys scored but their defense was great. The other team really never got off a good shot.

4 more games left in the season. One big bummer is that I found out one of our best players is leaving the school because they moved. He is a good kid and fierce competitor as well as good friend. Both him and my son are very similar in that they can get emotionally very distraught but the when one of them would see the other break down then the other would come to comfort and help the other. The previous game, I ended up having to pull each of them and give them basically the same speech to get them settled and back in the game. He is a good athlete and I was looking forward to watching him grow up in the school sports.

Also kind of sucks because he is one of the very few African American kids in the school period. It is a very white school, a few Asians (mostly half like my kids but a few full Asians) and a handful of Hispanic kids. But the good thing is that I talked to his mother today and we would make it a point to keep them in contact and meet up in the future. Regardless, he will be missed after this year.

 

[Navin Johnson]

I am an adamant proponent of M2M. I refuse to play zone in youth levels. I start off telling the parents and assistant coaches that are new to working with me that we will play M2M even if it costs us games. That being said, I would say as you get to Jr High ages then a junk defense is 'allowable' as long as M2M is your 'base' defense, your kids have a good understanding of playing M2M and that when you install the junk you actually teach the concepts and whys to the kids versus 'stand here and guard this area'. I do think that that can help increase their basketball IQ. Explaining and teaching how and when and why you will use the junk versus a M2M is, in itself, a teaching/development opportunity for the kids. That is my take.

If I was the HS coach in this district I would be thrilled

 

[thecatch]

I'd like to solicit everyone's favorite boxing out drills. The only thing that has even remotely worked for my team is a 1 on 1 "king of the hill"-type drill where two kids try to box each other out, get the rebound, and then put it back up and score (winner stays on). I've tried a bunch of full team drills but those have had 0 impact. This has all followed repeated instruction on form. It's just so unintuitive for the kids.