Cutler will not report on Monday (1 Viewer)

[Donnybrook]

The last 2 weeks have pretty much served as the basis. Its unprecedented, really. I cant recall such absolute buffoonery in a "leader".

Don't be so hard on McDaniels. He is still young - he may learn from his mistakes.

 

[gianmarco]

The last 2 weeks have pretty much served as the basis. Its unprecedented, really. I cant recall such absolute buffoonery in a "leader".

Don't be so hard on McDaniels. He is still young - he may learn from his mistakes.

 

[zdaddy]

"Leader" is a relative term. The HC wasnt dealing with a leader. He was dealing with Jay Cutler.

What is the basis of your statement? Because the team leader expected to be treated with some respect?

And the part that keeps me leaning back to Cutler; from the Logan piece?If Cutler wanted to talk to his head coach, he should have been able to. Instead, McDaniels stayed on the phone for almost an hour, pretty much blowing Cutler off. This of coarse before the entire trade thing.

 

[bryan215]

I find the whole "blame the agent" and "blame the player" a bit tiring. The agent wasn't shopping his player; the TEAM was. Let's not lose sight of who started this boat. It wasn't Cutler and it wasn't his agent. Secondly, things wouldn't have progressed from bad to worse if the HC had dealt in a straight up manner with the player. The same SI article above:"As for Jay [Cutler], he didn't ask to be traded until he was told by Josh McDaniels in that meeting last Saturday that they couldn't tell him he wouldn't be traded at some point in the future."This isn't just a player being pissy. This is a HC not being straight with his team's leader. Why can't he man up and tell him "yes, we want to go in a different direction and are trying to trade you before the draft" or "no, you are the guy I want leading this team on the field--let's talk about the offense and how you fit into it."

He didn't ask? REPORT: COOK WAS “BEGGING” FOR CUTLER TRADEPosted by Mike Florio on March 17, 2009, 9:32 p.m.A couple of weeks ago, Peter King of SI.com reported, almost in passing, that Broncos quarterback Jay Cutler asked to be traded after quarterbacks coach Jeremy Bates left for USC. If true, this would make Cutler’s outrage over nearly being traded a tad, shall we say, phony.Now, John Czarnecki of FOXSports.com adds some meat to the bone, reporting that agent Bus Cook was “begging” the Broncos to trade Cutler before the failed attempt to send him to a new team.“Denver told him no from the beginning,” Czarnecki writes. “But somehow Cook has been able — how hilarious is this? — to paint Cutler as some victim in the cruel world of NFL trade talk.”

 

[twitch]

I find the whole "blame the agent" and "blame the player" a bit tiring. The agent wasn't shopping his player; the TEAM was. Let's not lose sight of who started this boat. It wasn't Cutler and it wasn't his agent.

Secondly, things wouldn't have progressed from bad to worse if the HC had dealt in a straight up manner with the player. The same SI article above:

"As for Jay [Cutler], he didn't ask to be traded until he was told by Josh McDaniels in that meeting last Saturday that they couldn't tell him he wouldn't be traded at some point in the future."

This isn't just a player being pissy. This is a HC not being straight with his team's leader. Why can't he man up and tell him "yes, we want to go in a different direction and are trying to trade you before the draft" or "no, you are the guy I want leading this team on the field--let's talk about the offense and how you fit into it."

He didn't ask? REPORT: COOK WAS “BEGGING” FOR CUTLER TRADE

Posted by Mike Florio on March 17, 2009, 9:32 p.m.

A couple of weeks ago, Peter King of SI.com reported, almost in passing, that Broncos quarterback Jay Cutler asked to be traded after quarterbacks coach Jeremy Bates left for USC. If true, this would make Cutler’s outrage over nearly being traded a tad, shall we say, phony.

Now, John Czarnecki of FOXSports.com adds some meat to the bone, reporting that agent Bus Cook was “begging” the Broncos to trade Cutler before the failed attempt to send him to a new team.

“Denver told him no from the beginning,” Czarnecki writes. “But somehow Cook has been able — how hilarious is this? — to paint Cutler as some victim in the cruel world of NFL trade talk.”

Phony. Wow.

 

[moleculo]

Everyone should know that Cutler has wanted out of Denver ever since Mike Shanahan was fired and quarterback coach Jeremy Bates left for USC shortly afterward.

linkso here's how I think this all went down:

Cutler felt slighted and scared once Shanahan was removed from his duties. Bowlen detected that Cutler's state of mind was shot early on, and tried to placate him by doing his best to keep him abreast of the situation (as if it's the owners responsibility to keep the players in the loop). Cutler emotionally demanded that what ever happens, the Broncos would keep Bates.

But, ultimately, it's Bowlens team and he was enamored w/ McDaniels, so that's who Bowlen hired. McDaniels let Bates go. Cutler probably pitched a massive fit at that point, asked to be traded, and the coaches were able to calm him down. Cutler tried to be PC, and make good w/ McDaniels, but he never was ok with McD's decision to let Bates go. Cutler asks Cook to get him out of there, but there was no way the Broncos would consider that.

Until they considered it, that is. Cutler catches wind, really feels betrayed (again), pitched another fit, this time publicly. Cook smells blood in the water, and decides it's time to escalate. He insists that Cutler only meet w/ Bronco Brass with him present, so he can be sure to spin things the way he wants them spun.

The Dave Logan story I posted yesterday painted Cutler as extremely stuborn, headstrong, and someone who holds a grudge. That all fits with this chain of events.

If this is all accurate, I'm not really sure that there's anything that McD could have done differently. The Cutler situation would have blown up regardless. Any chance that McD had to kiss Cutler's ### that McD didn't take, Cutler would have pitched a fit, simply because McD isn't Jeremy Bates or Mike Shanahan. Cutler strikes me as a guy who is driven by emotions, but he is smart enough to keep them bottled up, most of the time. Of course, all that does is fester, and distort his perception.

It also doesn't help that Shanahan (and presumably, all of Vanderbuilt) has coddled him since he was 18 - the man has been told that he is entitled to everything. McD comes from a team-first environment in NE, where even the great Tom Brady is "just one of the guys", and not above criticism. That simply won't jive with Cutlers fragile ego.

I don't think all hope is lost however. McD can kiss Cutlers ###, and this time Xander can back that up with some cash - that would get Cook singing a different tune, which would go a long ways to getting Cutler to calm down. After that, McD needs to change his approach and manage the kid with, well, kid gloves. Of course, that will kill any "hand" that Xanders has, and the team will be riddled with holdouts come July, and McD's "team first" schtick will be worthless...

 

[az_prof]

I find the whole "blame the agent" and "blame the player" a bit tiring. The agent wasn't shopping his player; the TEAM was. Let's not lose sight of who started this boat. It wasn't Cutler and it wasn't his agent.

Secondly, things wouldn't have progressed from bad to worse if the HC had dealt in a straight up manner with the player. The same SI article above:

"As for Jay [Cutler], he didn't ask to be traded until he was told by Josh McDaniels in that meeting last Saturday that they couldn't tell him he wouldn't be traded at some point in the future."

This isn't just a player being pissy. This is a HC not being straight with his team's leader. Why can't he man up and tell him "yes, we want to go in a different direction and are trying to trade you before the draft" or "no, you are the guy I want leading this team on the field--let's talk about the offense and how you fit into it."

He didn't ask? REPORT: COOK WAS “BEGGING” FOR CUTLER TRADE

Posted by Mike Florio on March 17, 2009, 9:32 p.m.

A couple of weeks ago, Peter King of SI.com reported, almost in passing, that Broncos quarterback Jay Cutler asked to be traded after quarterbacks coach Jeremy Bates left for USC. If true, this would make Cutler’s outrage over nearly being traded a tad, shall we say, phony.

Now, John Czarnecki of FOXSports.com adds some meat to the bone, reporting that agent Bus Cook was “begging” the Broncos to trade Cutler before the failed attempt to send him to a new team.

“Denver told him no from the beginning,” Czarnecki writes. “But somehow Cook has been able — how hilarious is this? — to paint Cutler as some victim in the cruel world of NFL trade talk.”

No named sources. There are some people doing alot of spinning. Note the "If true..." qualifier. Hmmm.... If true, wouldn't someone official in Denver be putting their name behind this claim? I think so...

 

[Bri]

Can the Titans trade Young and their first for Tennessee resident Cutler?

 

[twistd]

Posted this in another thread, but since this seems to be the reigning Cutler thread, thought I'd put it in here as well. It's just a story that might interest you - I'm not trying to debate anything...Here's a (short) story, which I heard last fall and I have on good account. I guess I should preface it by saying I'm a Denver fan...Cutler joined a CC. He was not following some rules, and thought he could continue to act as he pleased. One day he's hanging around with his hat backward and a T, which wasn't allowed and he obviously knew as much. Now, I don't know the specifics of the confrontation and/or issue(s) therein, but here's the gist of it. The President went and got a $100,000 check (his membership) and told him he was gone.Obviously, it took more than just the one incident to reach a point where the Denver Broncos star QB gets ousted from a Denver CC. And I would think he had a longer leash to begin with, which is telling. He indeed has a serious attitude problem, to me anyway.Since hearing that, I've looked at him a little differently, and these recent events only make even more sense to me. He is reminding me a bit of [gasp] Jeff George, and I hate saying that.

When this all started I was bashing McDaniels, Cutler I thought was the answer. But the way this is playing out, I'm starting to think that maybe Cutler is not the guy to lead this team for the next 10 years. Maybe McDaniels see that, don't know. But at this point, I'm okay with him leaving if Denver can get good value in return.

Well, I think the Broncos can enjoy time at the bottom of the Western Division. They were in for a tough time with Cutler. I think Marshall might get suspended. They have a brutal schedule. If they go in to the season with Brady Quinn, or Sage Rosefels as their QB, not to mention Buckhalter being your number one back, it will be a long season. Josh McDaniels better be all sorts of a genius, or the Broncos are going to be 6-10 for the foreseeable future. I think the Broncos are in serious trouble.

 

[az_prof]

I would really urge people to be clear about what they know and what they don't know and how they "know" what they know. Most of what is being reported in this story is hearsay and several posters are going even beyond that in assuming things that they don't know.

 

[Donnybrook]

Everyone should know that Cutler has wanted out of Denver ever since Mike Shanahan was fired and quarterback coach Jeremy Bates left for USC shortly afterward.

linkso here's how I think this all went down:

Cutler felt slighted and scared once Shanahan was removed from his duties. Bowlen detected that Cutler's state of mind was shot early on, and tried to placate him by doing his best to keep him abreast of the situation (as if it's the owners responsibility to keep the players in the loop). Cutler emotionally demanded that what ever happens, the Broncos would keep Bates.

But, ultimately, it's Bowlens team and he was enamored w/ McDaniels, so that's who Bowlen hired. McDaniels let Bates go. Cutler probably pitched a massive fit at that point, asked to be traded, and the coaches were able to calm him down. Cutler tried to be PC, and make good w/ McDaniels, but he never was ok with McD's decision to let Bates go. Cutler asks Cook to get him out of there, but there was no way the Broncos would consider that.

Until they considered it, that is. Cutler catches wind, really feels betrayed (again), pitched another fit, this time publicly. Cook smells blood in the water, and decides it's time to escalate. He insists that Cutler only meet w/ Bronco Brass with him present, so he can be sure to spin things the way he wants them spun.

The Dave Logan story I posted yesterday painted Cutler as extremely stuborn, headstrong, and someone who holds a grudge. That all fits with this chain of events.

If this is all accurate, I'm not really sure that there's anything that McD could have done differently. The Cutler situation would have blown up regardless. Any chance that McD had to kiss Cutler's ### that McD didn't take, Cutler would have pitched a fit, simply because McD isn't Jeremy Bates or Mike Shanahan. Cutler strikes me as a guy who is driven by emotions, but he is smart enough to keep them bottled up, most of the time. Of course, all that does is fester, and distort his perception.

It also doesn't help that Shanahan (and presumably, all of Vanderbuilt) has coddled him since he was 18 - the man has been told that he is entitled to everything. McD comes from a team-first environment in NE, where even the great Tom Brady is "just one of the guys", and not above criticism. That simply won't jive with Cutlers fragile ego.

I don't think all hope is lost however. McD can kiss Cutlers ###, and this time Xander can back that up with some cash - that would get Cook singing a different tune, which would go a long ways to getting Cutler to calm down. After that, McD needs to change his approach and manage the kid with, well, kid gloves. Of course, that will kill any "hand" that Xanders has, and the team will be riddled with holdouts come July, and McD's "team first" schtick will be worthless...

How does the attempt to trade Scheffler fit into your timeline of events. I wonder if the attempt to trade his best friend on the team made Cutler react even more emotionally.

 

[moleculo]

Everyone should know that Cutler has wanted out of Denver ever since Mike Shanahan was fired and quarterback coach Jeremy Bates left for USC shortly afterward.

linkso here's how I think this all went down:

Cutler felt slighted and scared once Shanahan was removed from his duties. Bowlen detected that Cutler's state of mind was shot early on, and tried to placate him by doing his best to keep him abreast of the situation (as if it's the owners responsibility to keep the players in the loop). Cutler emotionally demanded that what ever happens, the Broncos would keep Bates.

But, ultimately, it's Bowlens team and he was enamored w/ McDaniels, so that's who Bowlen hired. McDaniels let Bates go. Cutler probably pitched a massive fit at that point, asked to be traded, and the coaches were able to calm him down. Cutler tried to be PC, and make good w/ McDaniels, but he never was ok with McD's decision to let Bates go. Cutler asks Cook to get him out of there, but there was no way the Broncos would consider that.

Until they considered it, that is. Cutler catches wind, really feels betrayed (again), pitched another fit, this time publicly. Cook smells blood in the water, and decides it's time to escalate. He insists that Cutler only meet w/ Bronco Brass with him present, so he can be sure to spin things the way he wants them spun.

The Dave Logan story I posted yesterday painted Cutler as extremely stuborn, headstrong, and someone who holds a grudge. That all fits with this chain of events.

If this is all accurate, I'm not really sure that there's anything that McD could have done differently. The Cutler situation would have blown up regardless. Any chance that McD had to kiss Cutler's ### that McD didn't take, Cutler would have pitched a fit, simply because McD isn't Jeremy Bates or Mike Shanahan. Cutler strikes me as a guy who is driven by emotions, but he is smart enough to keep them bottled up, most of the time. Of course, all that does is fester, and distort his perception.

It also doesn't help that Shanahan (and presumably, all of Vanderbuilt) has coddled him since he was 18 - the man has been told that he is entitled to everything. McD comes from a team-first environment in NE, where even the great Tom Brady is "just one of the guys", and not above criticism. That simply won't jive with Cutlers fragile ego.

I don't think all hope is lost however. McD can kiss Cutlers ###, and this time Xander can back that up with some cash - that would get Cook singing a different tune, which would go a long ways to getting Cutler to calm down. After that, McD needs to change his approach and manage the kid with, well, kid gloves. Of course, that will kill any "hand" that Xanders has, and the team will be riddled with holdouts come July, and McD's "team first" schtick will be worthless...

How does the attempt to Scheffler fit into your timeline of events. I wonder if the attempt to trade his best friend on the team made Cutler react even more emotionally.

I hadn't even thought of that...can't help, certainly. Cutler and Scheffler have been close since day 1, same agent even. I honestly feel bad for Scheffler. He's the odd man out in McD's scheme, and he's being used as a pawn in Cooks manipulation. I hope he lands in a better situation.

 

[Courtjester]

I would really urge people to be clear about what they know and what they don't know and how they "know" what they know. Most of what is being reported in this story is hearsay and several posters are going even beyond that in assuming things that they don't know.

Oh come on, some posters are really outdoing themselves here. Matlock has nothing on these guys.Maybe it is mentioned earlier, but the Sports Guy's Podcast on ESPN is pretty interesting....Maybe the Denver Brass is alot at fault here if true,

 

[twistd]

Jay Cutler-QB-Broncos Mar. 17 - 11:51 am et ESPN's John Clayton believes the cost for Jay Cutler would be a first-round, second-round, and third-round pick.Clayton is basing this on the price to acquire rocket-armed 26-year-old Jeff George back in 1993, the last time a quarterback of Cutler's caliber hit the market in his prime. Broncos coach Josh McDaniels has stated that he's not interested in a draft-pick return, leaving him without a quarterback. He might not have a choice. Source: ESPN.com

The Market's a tad different than it was in 1993 there Clayton.

I agree, but the Cowboys paid a first and third for Roy Williams last year. I think the Cowboys got robbed, but the compensation is similiar.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I find the whole "blame the agent" and "blame the player" a bit tiring. The agent wasn't shopping his player; the TEAM was. Let's not lose sight of who started this boat. It wasn't Cutler and it wasn't his agent. Secondly, things wouldn't have progressed from bad to worse if the HC had dealt in a straight up manner with the player. The same SI article above:"As for Jay [Cutler], he didn't ask to be traded until he was told by Josh McDaniels in that meeting last Saturday that they couldn't tell him he wouldn't be traded at some point in the future."This isn't just a player being pissy. This is a HC not being straight with his team's leader. Why can't he man up and tell him "yes, we want to go in a different direction and are trying to trade you before the draft" or "no, you are the guy I want leading this team on the field--let's talk about the offense and how you fit into it."

The team has the right, per contract to trade any player (without a "no trade") they like. And it would be unusual for the team to tell the player before they tested the market. McDaniels, and the team haven't acted in any way differently then any other team in the NFL. Cutler is just using this as an opportunity to correct other issues, like money and coaching changes he didn't like...

 

[Banger]

I find the whole "blame the agent" and "blame the player" a bit tiring. The agent wasn't shopping his player; the TEAM was. Let's not lose sight of who started this boat. It wasn't Cutler and it wasn't his agent. Secondly, things wouldn't have progressed from bad to worse if the HC had dealt in a straight up manner with the player. The same SI article above:"As for Jay [Cutler], he didn't ask to be traded until he was told by Josh McDaniels in that meeting last Saturday that they couldn't tell him he wouldn't be traded at some point in the future."This isn't just a player being pissy. This is a HC not being straight with his team's leader. Why can't he man up and tell him "yes, we want to go in a different direction and are trying to trade you before the draft" or "no, you are the guy I want leading this team on the field--let's talk about the offense and how you fit into it."

The team has the right, per contract to trade any player (without a "no trade") they like. And it would be unusual for the team to tell the player before they tested the market. McDaniels, and the team haven't acted in any way differently then any other team in the NFL. Cutler is just using this as an opportunity to correct other issues, like money and coaching changes he didn't like...

is it against his contract to ask for a trade?

 

[PatsWillWin]

"As for Jay [Cutler], he didn't ask to be traded until he was told by Josh McDaniels in that meeting last Saturday that they couldn't tell him he wouldn't be traded at some point in the future."

LOL. This is the reason he's demanding a trade? Because the coach won't tell him that he's untradeable? What. A. Baby.

 

[Moonlight_Graham]

Can the Titans trade Young and their first for Tennessee resident Cutler?

What? ....and trade for another baby?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I find the whole "blame the agent" and "blame the player" a bit tiring. The agent wasn't shopping his player; the TEAM was. Let's not lose sight of who started this boat. It wasn't Cutler and it wasn't his agent. Secondly, things wouldn't have progressed from bad to worse if the HC had dealt in a straight up manner with the player. The same SI article above:"As for Jay [Cutler], he didn't ask to be traded until he was told by Josh McDaniels in that meeting last Saturday that they couldn't tell him he wouldn't be traded at some point in the future."This isn't just a player being pissy. This is a HC not being straight with his team's leader. Why can't he man up and tell him "yes, we want to go in a different direction and are trying to trade you before the draft" or "no, you are the guy I want leading this team on the field--let's talk about the offense and how you fit into it."

The team has the right, per contract to trade any player (without a "no trade") they like. And it would be unusual for the team to tell the player before they tested the market. McDaniels, and the team haven't acted in any way differently then any other team in the NFL. Cutler is just using this as an opportunity to correct other issues, like money and coaching changes he didn't like...

is it against his contract to ask for a trade?

NopeHe could have asked for a trade at any time... He didn't even have to be immature or hard headed about it. Though that's not stipulated in his contract either...

 

[Wilbur Wood]

The last 2 weeks have pretty much served as the basis. Its unprecedented, really. I cant recall such absolute buffoonery in a "leader".

I completely agree. The head coach is suppose to be a leader and the face of the organization. If Denver has to start all over at the QB position with the likes of Chris Simms or Brady Quinn they will likely be in for an extended stint as the worst team in the NFL.This will not end well for the 32 year old coach.

 

[twitch]

The last 2 weeks have pretty much served as the basis. Its unprecedented, really. I cant recall such absolute buffoonery in a "leader".

I completely agree. The head coach is suppose to be a leader and the face of the organization. If Denver has to start all over at the QB position with the likes of Chris Simms or Brady Quinn they will likely be in for an extended stint as the worst team in the NFL.This will not end well for the 32 year old coach.

Right. Because Jay Cutler knows so much about winning. Please. That guy hasnt had a winning season since high school. Literally. Id be willing to bet a cup of coffee he's the only active QB, starter, backup or otherwise, with that glowing distinction. Get rid of the guy and bring in a winner already. Quinn or plenty of other guys can lead that team to mediocrity.

 

[Banger]

The last 2 weeks have pretty much served as the basis. Its unprecedented, really. I cant recall such absolute buffoonery in a "leader".

I completely agree. The head coach is suppose to be a leader and the face of the organization. If Denver has to start all over at the QB position with the likes of Chris Simms or Brady Quinn they will likely be in for an extended stint as the worst team in the NFL.This will not end well for the 32 year old coach.

Right. Because Jay Cutler knows so much about winning. Please. That guy hasnt had a winning season since high school. Literally. Id be willing to bet a cup of coffee he's the only active QB, starter, backup or otherwise, with that glowing distinction. Get rid of the guy and bring in a winner already. Quinn or plenty of other guys can lead that team to mediocrity.

the win thing is such a tired argument....so Pennington, Favre, Cassel, Flacco, Garcia, Collins, Orton, Frerotte, Ryan and Delhomme are better QB's becuase their teams won more games? I posted this earlier in the thread...how could any team be successful with that defense over the past few seasons....The records of the teams as bad or worse than they were defensively were...Raiders (5-11)

Rams (2-14)

Broncos (8-8)

Seattle (4-12)

KC (2-14)

Det (0-16)

which one of these does not belong?

BTW...Denver had the #2 ranked offense in the NFL so it looks as if Cutler did his part. To win in the NFL you need an offense AND A DEFENSE, they had a great offense which Cutler was the leader of but they had a horrendous defense that gave up the 3rd most points in the NFL. I'm not sure how that's Cutler's fault. 8-8 was a tremendous season due in very large part to Cutler.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Banger, don't waste your time.

 

[identikit]

I find the whole "blame the agent" and "blame the player" a bit tiring. The agent wasn't shopping his player; the TEAM was. Let's not lose sight of who started this boat. It wasn't Cutler and it wasn't his agent.

Secondly, things wouldn't have progressed from bad to worse if the HC had dealt in a straight up manner with the player. The same SI article above:

"As for Jay [Cutler], he didn't ask to be traded until he was told by Josh McDaniels in that meeting last Saturday that they couldn't tell him he wouldn't be traded at some point in the future."

This isn't just a player being pissy. This is a HC not being straight with his team's leader. Why can't he man up and tell him "yes, we want to go in a different direction and are trying to trade you before the draft" or "no, you are the guy I want leading this team on the field--let's talk about the offense and how you fit into it."

The team has the right, per contract to trade any player (without a "no trade") they like. And it would be unusual for the team to tell the player before they tested the market. McDaniels, and the team haven't acted in any way differently then any other team in the NFL. Cutler is just using this as an opportunity to correct other issues, like money and coaching changes he didn't like...

is it against his contract to ask for a trade?

Nope

He could have asked for a trade at any time... He didn't even have to be immature or hard headed about it. Though that's not stipulated in his contract either...

Pretty sure I read that Cutler did indeed ask to be traded (after the QB coach was let go/left).

So when Denver talks trade with other teams about him (whether they initiated it or not), he's mad about it.

That chain of events speaks volumes to me.

 

[twitch]

The last 2 weeks have pretty much served as the basis. Its unprecedented, really. I cant recall such absolute buffoonery in a "leader".

I completely agree. The head coach is suppose to be a leader and the face of the organization. If Denver has to start all over at the QB position with the likes of Chris Simms or Brady Quinn they will likely be in for an extended stint as the worst team in the NFL.This will not end well for the 32 year old coach.

Right. Because Jay Cutler knows so much about winning. Please. That guy hasnt had a winning season since high school. Literally. Id be willing to bet a cup of coffee he's the only active QB, starter, backup or otherwise, with that glowing distinction. Get rid of the guy and bring in a winner already. Quinn or plenty of other guys can lead that team to mediocrity.

the win thing is such a tired argument....so Pennington, Favre, Cassel, Flacco, Garcia, Collins, Orton, Frerotte, Ryan and Delhomme are better QB's becuase their teams won more games? I posted this earlier in the thread...how could any team be successful with that defense over the past few seasons....The records of the teams as bad or worse than they were defensively were...Raiders (5-11)

Rams (2-14)

Broncos (8-8)

Seattle (4-12)

KC (2-14)

Det (0-16)

which one of these does not belong?

BTW...Denver had the #2 ranked offense in the NFL so it looks as if Cutler did his part. To win in the NFL you need an offense AND A DEFENSE, they had a great offense which Cutler was the leader of but they had a horrendous defense that gave up the 3rd most points in the NFL. I'm not sure how that's Cutler's fault. 8-8 was a tremendous season due in very large part to Cutler.

First, we all know it wasnt 8-8. It was 7-9 with a gift. Argue that if you want. It'd be funny to listen to that banter, too. Second, Im still waiting for the name of that other QB who hasnt won anything since HS. Just one name. You either win or you dont. Its pretty simple. And Im not even going to bat for McDaniels here. Im not defending what he did. He was obviously in the wrong. But he did what he did, no matter how minor it actually was, but he admitted to the mistake, and he's moving on.

He jumped ship on NE. None of us thought the guy was ready. Most of us still arent crazy about the guy because of the horrible game he called in the Superbowl. I couldnt care less how things turn out for him at this point. Just like I dont care about Weiss. Or Crennel. Or Mangini. Theyre all big boys. They can fend for themselves. So, youve got that angle completely twisted. No New England fans are here defending McDaniels for any loyalty for that guy. Or, atleast this fan isnt. I can only speak for myself. This situation is all about Cutler behaving like a toddler.

What's funny is how many obvious NE haters are here defending a crying baby's actions just because the guy on the other side of the fence is a Belichick disciple. That's a screaming riot. I find it hilarious that the team that's probably given NE as much trouble over the last decade as any team is falling apart at the seams.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Thus far I have not seen any footage of Cutler speaking on this matter, nor have I heard any audio of him. Perhaps its out there and I missed it.

It strikes me wierd. Many of these stories we are getting are from T.V. and radio networks, yet none have tape?

Both sides should step up or step off.

 

[Desert_Power]

All of the hearsay aside, coming in and trying to overhaul the league's second best offense is beyond idiotic. McDaniels could have come in and focused on rebuilding the defense while leaving the offense largely alone in the capable hands of Bates. Instead, this is the focus of Denver's off season. We are witnessing how one turns a franchise into the Detroit Lions here.

 

[Liquid Tension]

The last 2 weeks have pretty much served as the basis. Its unprecedented, really. I cant recall such absolute buffoonery in a "leader".

I completely agree. The head coach is suppose to be a leader and the face of the organization. If Denver has to start all over at the QB position with the likes of Chris Simms or Brady Quinn they will likely be in for an extended stint as the worst team in the NFL.This will not end well for the 32 year old coach.

Right. Because Jay Cutler knows so much about winning. Please. That guy hasnt had a winning season since high school. Literally. Id be willing to bet a cup of coffee he's the only active QB, starter, backup or otherwise, with that glowing distinction. Get rid of the guy and bring in a winner already. Quinn or plenty of other guys can lead that team to mediocrity.

the win thing is such a tired argument....so Pennington, Favre, Cassel, Flacco, Garcia, Collins, Orton, Frerotte, Ryan and Delhomme are better QB's becuase their teams won more games? I posted this earlier in the thread...how could any team be successful with that defense over the past few seasons....The records of the teams as bad or worse than they were defensively were...Raiders (5-11)

Rams (2-14)

Broncos (8-8)

Seattle (4-12)

KC (2-14)

Det (0-16)

which one of these does not belong?

BTW...Denver had the #2 ranked offense in the NFL so it looks as if Cutler did his part. To win in the NFL you need an offense AND A DEFENSE, they had a great offense which Cutler was the leader of but they had a horrendous defense that gave up the 3rd most points in the NFL. I'm not sure how that's Cutler's fault. 8-8 was a tremendous season due in very large part to Cutler.

Somebody is paying attention! Banger!The winning thing is so absurd because the QB can only do so much (see sig). The QB is the largest single piece of the puzzle, but he can't do it himself. If you needed a QB to play well to win, how was it possible that Pittsburgh won the SB with Big Ben's horrific performance? Football is the ultimate team sport.

Does leadership matter, sure it does, but it is not nearly what or as much as people think it is. The QB having a short memory is a critical part of leadership. Anyway, Cutler is a clearly above average QB who is probably around the 10th best mark and has the ability to be greater. Many teams would be FAR better off with him at the QB position and they are foolish if they don't try and get him.

 

[Desert_Power]

The last 2 weeks have pretty much served as the basis. Its unprecedented, really. I cant recall such absolute buffoonery in a "leader".

I completely agree. The head coach is suppose to be a leader and the face of the organization. If Denver has to start all over at the QB position with the likes of Chris Simms or Brady Quinn they will likely be in for an extended stint as the worst team in the NFL.This will not end well for the 32 year old coach.

Right. Because Jay Cutler knows so much about winning. Please. That guy hasnt had a winning season since high school. Literally. Id be willing to bet a cup of coffee he's the only active QB, starter, backup or otherwise, with that glowing distinction. Get rid of the guy and bring in a winner already. Quinn or plenty of other guys can lead that team to mediocrity.

the win thing is such a tired argument....so Pennington, Favre, Cassel, Flacco, Garcia, Collins, Orton, Frerotte, Ryan and Delhomme are better QB's becuase their teams won more games? I posted this earlier in the thread...how could any team be successful with that defense over the past few seasons....The records of the teams as bad or worse than they were defensively were...Raiders (5-11)

Rams (2-14)

Broncos (8-8)

Seattle (4-12)

KC (2-14)

Det (0-16)

which one of these does not belong?



BTW...Denver had the #2 ranked offense in the NFL so it looks as if Cutler did his part. To win in the NFL you need an offense AND A DEFENSE, they had a great offense which Cutler was the leader of but they had a horrendous defense that gave up the 3rd most points in the NFL. I'm not sure how that's Cutler's fault. 8-8 was a tremendous season due in very large part to Cutler.

Without Cutler, last year would have gone horrendously for Denver.

 

[PatsWillWin]

All of the hearsay aside, coming in and trying to overhaul the league's second best offense is beyond idiotic. McDaniels could have come in and focused on rebuilding the defense while leaving the offense largely alone in the capable hands of Bates. Instead, this is the focus of Denver's off season. We are witnessing how one turns a franchise into the Detroit Lions here.

He's been making a lot of moves to rebuild the defense. They're just not as interesting as this topic.

 

[Liquid Tension]

The last 2 weeks have pretty much served as the basis. Its unprecedented, really. I cant recall such absolute buffoonery in a "leader".

I completely agree. The head coach is suppose to be a leader and the face of the organization. If Denver has to start all over at the QB position with the likes of Chris Simms or Brady Quinn they will likely be in for an extended stint as the worst team in the NFL.This will not end well for the 32 year old coach.

Right. Because Jay Cutler knows so much about winning. Please. That guy hasnt had a winning season since high school. Literally. Id be willing to bet a cup of coffee he's the only active QB, starter, backup or otherwise, with that glowing distinction. Get rid of the guy and bring in a winner already. Quinn or plenty of other guys can lead that team to mediocrity.

the win thing is such a tired argument....so Pennington, Favre, Cassel, Flacco, Garcia, Collins, Orton, Frerotte, Ryan and Delhomme are better QB's becuase their teams won more games? I posted this earlier in the thread...how could any team be successful with that defense over the past few seasons....The records of the teams as bad or worse than they were defensively were...Raiders (5-11)

Rams (2-14)

Broncos (8-8)

Seattle (4-12)

KC (2-14)

Det (0-16)

which one of these does not belong?

BTW...Denver had the #2 ranked offense in the NFL so it looks as if Cutler did his part. To win in the NFL you need an offense AND A DEFENSE, they had a great offense which Cutler was the leader of but they had a horrendous defense that gave up the 3rd most points in the NFL. I'm not sure how that's Cutler's fault. 8-8 was a tremendous season due in very large part to Cutler.

First, we all know it wasnt 8-8. It was 7-9 with a gift. Argue that if you want. It'd be funny to listen to that banter, too. Second, Im still waiting for the name of that other QB who hasnt won anything since HS. Just one name. You either win or you dont. Its pretty simple. And Im not even going to bat for McDaniels here. Im not defending what he did. He was obviously in the wrong. But he did what he did, no matter how minor it actually was, but he admitted to the mistake, and he's moving on.

He jumped ship on NE. None of us thought the guy was ready. Most of us still arent crazy about the guy because of the horrible game he called in the Superbowl. I couldnt care less how things turn out for him at this point. Just like I dont care about Weiss. Or Crennel. Or Mangini. Theyre all big boys. They can fend for themselves. So, youve got that angle completely twisted. No New England fans are here defending McDaniels for any loyalty for that guy. Or, atleast this fan isnt. I can only speak for myself. This situation is all about Cutler behaving like a toddler.

What's funny is how many obvious NE haters are here defending a crying baby's actions just because the guy on the other side of the fence is a Belichick disciple. That's a screaming riot. I find it hilarious that the team that's probably given NE as much trouble over the last decade as any team is falling apart at the seams.

You are far off the mark on both the bolded parts. It isn't that simple and I am shocked that you don't know this. In fact, I think you do know this, but it doesn't serve your purpose here. As for making this a NE thing, I can only say the world doesn't revolve around NE and I don't think this has ANYTHING to do with where McDaniels is coming from. Why are NE fans so insecure? This coming from Twitch who usually has much more perspective than other NE fans. Are you having a bad day?I don't get it, unless you have some agenda against Cutler?

 

[Desert_Power]

All of the hearsay aside, coming in and trying to overhaul the league's second best offense is beyond idiotic. McDaniels could have come in and focused on rebuilding the defense while leaving the offense largely alone in the capable hands of Bates. Instead, this is the focus of Denver's off season. We are witnessing how one turns a franchise into the Detroit Lions here.

He's been making a lot of moves to rebuild the defense. They're just not as interesting as this topic.

Outside of Dawkins, I do not really see that they have improved too much. Hill is decent, Goodman is not. Regardless, it is going to take a lot more defensive additions to balance out the loss in offensive production they will have this year.

 

[parrot]

BTW...Denver had the #2 ranked offense in the NFL so it looks as if Cutler did his part. To win in the NFL you need an offense AND A DEFENSE, they had a great offense which Cutler was the leader of but they had a horrendous defense that gave up the 3rd most points in the NFL. I'm not sure how that's Cutler's fault. 8-8 was a tremendous season due in very large part to Cutler.

"Great" offenses score points. Denver had the #2 yardage offense, they had the #16 scoring offense. Cutler was one of the single worst QBs in the redzone. He complete fewer than 50% of his passes in the redzone and no one in the league threw more redzone picks.

 

[PatsWillWin]

All of the hearsay aside, coming in and trying to overhaul the league's second best offense is beyond idiotic. McDaniels could have come in and focused on rebuilding the defense while leaving the offense largely alone in the capable hands of Bates. Instead, this is the focus of Denver's off season. We are witnessing how one turns a franchise into the Detroit Lions here.

He's been making a lot of moves to rebuild the defense. They're just not as interesting as this topic.

Outside of Dawkins, I do not really see that they have improved too much. Hill is decent, Goodman is not. Regardless, it is going to take a lot more defensive additions to balance out the loss in offensive production they will have this year.

That's fine if you don't think the moves are good ones, I don't know that they are either, but that's a different argument than somehow saying he's neglecting the defensive side of the ball.

 

[Skino]

All of the hearsay aside, coming in and trying to overhaul the league's second best offense is beyond idiotic. McDaniels could have come in and focused on rebuilding the defense while leaving the offense largely alone in the capable hands of Bates. Instead, this is the focus of Denver's off season. We are witnessing how one turns a franchise into the Detroit Lions here.

And what if he's able to take a pretty good offense (not great, I watched way too many times this past season where they drove down the field and were unable to score), and make it scary good with his system? For the last several years, the Denver offense has had trouble punching the ball in the end zone relative to their performance in between the 20's. They have put a ton of focus on the defense, but I don't think it's right to say the offense should have been untouched.

 

[twitch]

You are far off the mark on both the bolded parts. It isn't that simple and I am shocked that you don't know this. In fact, I think you do know this, but it doesn't serve your purpose here. As for making this a NE thing, I can only say the world doesn't revolve around NE and I don't think this has ANYTHING to do with where McDaniels is coming from. Why are NE fans so insecure? This coming from Twitch who usually has much more perspective than other NE fans. Are you having a bad day?

I don't get it, unless you have some agenda against Cutler?

My agenda is against professional athletes who have little to no appreciation for the millions and millions of dollars they earn. And continue to live in a world they assume revolves around them. Cutler is obviously showing little regard for the other players in Denver, the fans in Denver, and ownership in Denver that has stayed committed to producing a winning team for that community for years. I will maintain that perspective as long as I live and breath. And I'll hammer any and all athletes following a similar path. You want to call that an agenda or a slanted view, Id understand. I dont throw up my arms daily because of it. Clearly that would get old quick. But this is an extremely polarizing case. And at this stage, one guy in this case is holding a team hostage. Yet, the other guy's still getting blamed.

 

[Banger]

The last 2 weeks have pretty much served as the basis. Its unprecedented, really. I cant recall such absolute buffoonery in a "leader".

I completely agree. The head coach is suppose to be a leader and the face of the organization. If Denver has to start all over at the QB position with the likes of Chris Simms or Brady Quinn they will likely be in for an extended stint as the worst team in the NFL.This will not end well for the 32 year old coach.

Right. Because Jay Cutler knows so much about winning. Please. That guy hasnt had a winning season since high school. Literally. Id be willing to bet a cup of coffee he's the only active QB, starter, backup or otherwise, with that glowing distinction. Get rid of the guy and bring in a winner already. Quinn or plenty of other guys can lead that team to mediocrity.

the win thing is such a tired argument....so Pennington, Favre, Cassel, Flacco, Garcia, Collins, Orton, Frerotte, Ryan and Delhomme are better QB's becuase their teams won more games? I posted this earlier in the thread...how could any team be successful with that defense over the past few seasons....The records of the teams as bad or worse than they were defensively were...Raiders (5-11)

Rams (2-14)

Broncos (8-8)

Seattle (4-12)

KC (2-14)

Det (0-16)

which one of these does not belong?

BTW...Denver had the #2 ranked offense in the NFL so it looks as if Cutler did his part. To win in the NFL you need an offense AND A DEFENSE, they had a great offense which Cutler was the leader of but they had a horrendous defense that gave up the 3rd most points in the NFL. I'm not sure how that's Cutler's fault. 8-8 was a tremendous season due in very large part to Cutler.

First, we all know it wasnt 8-8. It was 7-9 with a gift. Argue that if you want. It'd be funny to listen to that banter, too. Second, Im still waiting for the name of that other QB who hasnt won anything since HS. Just one name. You either win or you dont. Its pretty simple.

Matt Cassel until last year but that's again a silly argument. So Cutler goes to a football college instead of Vanderbuilt and goes 8-4 each season, what does that prove? So you're telling me that if Denver doesn't blow a 4th qtr lead in week 16 to Buff by giving up 2 TDs @ home in the 4th qtr and the Bronco's end up going 9-7 instead of 8-8 that he's then a "winner". This is as ridiculous as the Peyton Manning can't win the big game arguments that went on for a few seasons. That was of course before he won the big game. Are you telling me that if he went to Chicago, Minnesota, etc. a team with a good defense that he would cause the team to lose?

Your way of looking at this issue is a problem that many FF'ers have when looking at situations. You can't just look at the numbers and let that be the gospel. You have to understand why the numbers are the way they are and understand how other factors (i.e. defense, o-line, coaching changes, etc.) impact performance. Anyone can look back at stats and quote them but the key is to have the ability to analyze situations and individual talent and performances to help predict the players future performance.

You can call Cutler a baby, a whiner, a horrible leader, a bad country club member but on the field he's a hell of QB that can make every throw, has throw for 4,500 yards and 25 TD's as a 2nd year starter that made the pro bowl (for a losing team) at the age of 25.

 

[Moonlight_Graham]

NFL Headlines

Report: Broncos not entertaining trade offers

According to SI's Peter King, the Broncos are "hanging on to Jay Cutler and won't entertain discussion for him at this time."

The Broncos' current stance is to try to meet with Cutler sans agent Bus Cook, hoping the situation can be remedied. King believes the relationship is now beyond repair and that Cutler will be traded, with Denver's stance likely to change before the NFL Draft. King nominates the Bucs and the Jets as the "most fervent suitors." Mar. 18 - 11:12 am et

Source: SI.com

 

[twitch]

You can call Cutler a baby, a whiner, a horrible leader, a bad country club member but on the field he's a hell of QB that can make every throw, has throw for 4,500 yards and 25 TD's as a 2nd year starter that made the pro bowl (for a losing team) at the age of 25.

You just described Derek Anderson. Minus the baby, whiner, etc description. ProBowler. Phenomenal stats. Young. What's your point? Atleast Anderson won 10 games with his miserable defense.

 

[fatness]

He jumped ship on NE. None of us thought the guy was ready. Most of us still arent crazy about the guy because of the horrible game he called in the Superbowl. I couldnt care less how things turn out for him at this point. Just like I dont care about Weiss. Or Crennel. Or Mangini. Theyre all big boys. They can fend for themselves. So, youve got that angle completely twisted. No New England fans are here defending McDaniels for any loyalty for that guy. Or, atleast this fan isnt. I can only speak for myself. This situation is all about Cutler behaving like a toddler.What's funny is how many obvious NE haters are here defending a crying baby's actions just because the guy on the other side of the fence is a Belichick disciple. That's a screaming riot. I find it hilarious that the team that's probably given NE as much trouble over the last decade as any team is falling apart at the seams.

Ah, I see. This whole discussion is really just a ruse for people to bash the Patriots, while Patriots fans are being fair as usual. Thanks for the insight.

 

[twitch]

He jumped ship on NE. None of us thought the guy was ready. Most of us still arent crazy about the guy because of the horrible game he called in the Superbowl. I couldnt care less how things turn out for him at this point. Just like I dont care about Weiss. Or Crennel. Or Mangini. Theyre all big boys. They can fend for themselves. So, youve got that angle completely twisted. No New England fans are here defending McDaniels for any loyalty for that guy. Or, atleast this fan isnt. I can only speak for myself. This situation is all about Cutler behaving like a toddler.

What's funny is how many obvious NE haters are here defending a crying baby's actions just because the guy on the other side of the fence is a Belichick disciple. That's a screaming riot. I find it hilarious that the team that's probably given NE as much trouble over the last decade as any team is falling apart at the seams.

Ah, I see. This whole discussion is really just a ruse for people to bash the Patriots, while Patriots fans are being fair as usual. Thanks for the insight.

The whole discussion? Is that what so many translates to? Got it.

 

[parrot]

As for making this a NE thing, I can only say the world doesn't revolve around NE and I don't think this has ANYTHING to do with where McDaniels is coming from. Why are NE fans so insecure?

Please. Go read just the first page of the "Who do you support..." thread and notice the number of negative New England and BB references. No fewer than five, including a couple regarding the "New England arrogance". Maybe to you McDaniels coaching lineage is irrelevant but it's clear that to many people it isn't. Don't pretend otherwise.

 

[Banger]

BTW...Denver had the #2 ranked offense in the NFL so it looks as if Cutler did his part. To win in the NFL you need an offense AND A DEFENSE, they had a great offense which Cutler was the leader of but they had a horrendous defense that gave up the 3rd most points in the NFL. I'm not sure how that's Cutler's fault. 8-8 was a tremendous season due in very large part to Cutler.

"Great" offenses score points. Denver had the #2 yardage offense, they had the #16 scoring offense. Cutler was one of the single worst QBs in the redzone. He complete fewer than 50% of his passes in the redzone and no one in the league threw more redzone picks.

Their poor scoring was because they couldn't run in short yardage/red zone and the only way they could score was through the air (other teams knew this as well). They were tied for 14th with 4 teams in rushing TDs (middle of the pack) and they were 7th in passing tds'. No one threw more but he threw as many as Brees - 4. Is Brees a bad QB? Cutler's red zone passing % was better than Cassel the guy they tried to trade for...Again, all these stats are great but they aren't created in a vaccuum. When a team is losing and needs points you are going to be forced to force passes especially when you aren't an effective red zone running team (until Hillis at the end of the year).

 

[twitch]

Matt Cassel until last year but that's again a silly argument. So Cutler goes to a football college instead of Vanderbuilt and goes 8-4 each season, what does that prove?

So you're telling me that if Denver doesn't blow a 4th qtr lead in week 16 to Buff by giving up 2 TDs @ home in the 4th qtr and the Bronco's end up going 9-7 instead of 8-8 that he's then a "winner". This is as ridiculous as the Peyton Manning can't win the big game arguments that went on for a few seasons. That was of course before he won the big game. Are you telling me that if he went to Chicago, Minnesota, etc. a team with a good defense that he would cause the team to lose?

Your way of looking at this issue is a problem that many FF'ers have when looking at situations. You can't just look at the numbers and let that be the gospel. You have to understand why the numbers are the way they are and understand how other factors (i.e. defense, o-line, coaching changes, etc.) impact performance. Anyone can look back at stats and quote them but the key is to have the ability to analyze situations and individual talent and performances to help predict the players future performance.

You can call Cutler a baby, a whiner, a horrible leader, a bad country club member but on the field he's a hell of QB that can make every throw, has throw for 4,500 yards and 25 TD's as a 2nd year starter that made the pro bowl (for a losing team) at the age of 25.

And by the way, Im not a FFer. Ive played, but have long since given that up. So, that doesnt cause any problems for how I look at things. I visit the pool because all things NFL are discussed here, and the opinions arent typically limited to fantasy discussion. And I appreciate hearing the takes of fans of many different teams. The fantasy implications of these situations are weighed by a vast many members, but that doesnt impact my perspective. We're all familiar with how the #s work.

 

[Banger]

You can call Cutler a baby, a whiner, a horrible leader, a bad country club member but on the field he's a hell of QB that can make every throw, has throw for 4,500 yards and 25 TD's as a 2nd year starter that made the pro bowl (for a losing team) at the age of 25.

You just described Derek Anderson. Minus the baby, whiner, etc description. ProBowler. Phenomenal stats. Young. What's your point? Atleast Anderson won 10 games with his miserable defense.

So are you saying that Anderson = Cutler? I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm saying the guy is tremendous talent, DA was/is not. He can't make all the throws, he made the Pro Bowl because Brady went for surgery I believe. Cutler is and will continue to be a pro-bowl caliber player while DA is a backup (go back and check I argued this point two years ago after his "pro bowl" season).Again, you clearly seem to be a guy who evaluates people solely by #'s and not by your eyes (or maybe you haven't watched him). Just because player a gets 25 tds and player b gets 25 tds does not mean A=B.Can you do me a favor and make a list of QB's in order of their talent/ability and where Cutler fits in? I'm curious.

 

[twitch]

You can call Cutler a baby, a whiner, a horrible leader, a bad country club member but on the field he's a hell of QB that can make every throw, has throw for 4,500 yards and 25 TD's as a 2nd year starter that made the pro bowl (for a losing team) at the age of 25.

You just described Derek Anderson. Minus the baby, whiner, etc description. ProBowler. Phenomenal stats. Young. What's your point? Atleast Anderson won 10 games with his miserable defense.

So are you saying that Anderson = Cutler? I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm saying the guy is tremendous talent, DA was/is not. He can't make all the throws, he made the Pro Bowl because Brady went for surgery I believe. Cutler is and will continue to be a pro-bowl caliber player while DA is a backup (go back and check I argued this point two years ago after his "pro bowl" season).Again, you clearly seem to be a guy who evaluates people solely by #'s and not by your eyes (or maybe you haven't watched him). Just because player a gets 25 tds and player b gets 25 tds does not mean A=B.Can you do me a favor and make a list of QB's in order of their talent/ability and where Cutler fits in? I'm curious.

Maybe you'd just rather I provide a list of Qs based on the #s they put since evidently that's clearly the type of guy I seem to be. I just told you I dont play fantasy football, Ive been in here discussing Jay Cutler's failure to produce a winning season for any team since HS, and you still interpreted that somehow that all that matters to me is the #s. That's good. Look, Im not saying Cutler is Anderson. You threw out the #s. I just commented on them. Shows you how much they actually mean to me. And you have no way of knowing just how successful Jay Cutler will be if/when he leaves Denver for a variety of reasons.

 

[Banger]

You can call Cutler a baby, a whiner, a horrible leader, a bad country club member but on the field he's a hell of QB that can make every throw, has throw for 4,500 yards and 25 TD's as a 2nd year starter that made the pro bowl (for a losing team) at the age of 25.

You just described Derek Anderson. Minus the baby, whiner, etc description. ProBowler. Phenomenal stats. Young. What's your point? Atleast Anderson won 10 games with his miserable defense.

So are you saying that Anderson = Cutler? I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm saying the guy is tremendous talent, DA was/is not. He can't make all the throws, he made the Pro Bowl because Brady went for surgery I believe. Cutler is and will continue to be a pro-bowl caliber player while DA is a backup (go back and check I argued this point two years ago after his "pro bowl" season).Again, you clearly seem to be a guy who evaluates people solely by #'s and not by your eyes (or maybe you haven't watched him). Just because player a gets 25 tds and player b gets 25 tds does not mean A=B.Can you do me a favor and make a list of QB's in order of their talent/ability and where Cutler fits in? I'm curious.

Maybe you'd just rather I provide a list of Qs based on the #s they put since evidently that's clearly the type of guy I seem to be. I just told you I dont play fantasy football, Ive been in here discussing Jay Cutler's failure to produce a winning season for any team since HS, and you still interpreted that somehow that all that matters to me is the #s. That's good. Look, Im not saying Cutler is Anderson. You threw out the #s. I just commented on them. Shows you how much they actually mean to me. And you have no way of knowing just how successful Jay Cutler will be if/when he leaves Denver for a variety of reasons.

we are discussing NFL players and you're arguing Cutlers worth and abilities and that he's incapable of winning because he hasn't won since HS. I just want to see how reasonable or unreasonable your opinion is. If you are making all this noise and feel he's the 6th best QB then we are in the same ballpark but if you are arguing that he's the 19th best QB because his team was 8-8 it gives me a better perspective. I'm not looking for a fantasy rank but an NFL rank and it doesn't have to be exact. Factoring in ability, age, etc. mine would be ...BradyManningBreesCutlerRothlisbergerRiverswith the Cutler, Roth, Rivers lumped fairly close together. If I were building a new franchise I'd probably bump Cutler ahead of Brees.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

the win thing is such a tired argument....so Pennington, Favre, Cassel, Flacco, Garcia, Collins, Orton, Frerotte, Ryan and Delhomme are better QB's becuase their teams won more games?

No, it's the other way around. Their teams won more games because they are better QBs. I do think that Cutler is a better QB than most of those guys -- just not as good as many people seem to think he is. IMO, he's overrated because he has such great physical talent. But physical talent is really a small part of being a winning QB.

 

[Banger]

the win thing is such a tired argument....so Pennington, Favre, Cassel, Flacco, Garcia, Collins, Orton, Frerotte, Ryan and Delhomme are better QB's becuase their teams won more games?

No, it's the other way around. Their teams won more games because they are better QBs. I do think that Cutler is a better QB than most of those guys -- just not as good as many people seem to think he is. IMO, he's overrated because he has such great physical talent. But physical talent is really a small part of being a winning QB.

I don't debate that at all there are tons of guys that have physical ability but can't translate it on the field, can't read plays, etc. He's a young QB and he can certainly improve in aspects of his game but he has the intelligence and talent to be as good as any QB in the league.

 

[twitch]

we are discussing NFL players and you're arguing Cutlers worth and abilities and that he's incapable of winning because he hasn't won since HS. I just want to see how reasonable or unreasonable your opinion is. If you are making all this noise and feel he's the 6th best QB then we are in the same ballpark but if you are arguing that he's the 19th best QB because his team was 8-8 it gives me a better perspective. I'm not looking for a fantasy rank but an NFL rank and it doesn't have to be exact.

Factoring in ability, age, etc. mine would be ...

Brady

Manning

Brees

Cutler

Rothlisberger

Rivers

with the Cutler, Roth, Rivers lumped fairly close together. If I were building a new franchise I'd probably bump Cutler ahead of Brees.

Man, you just sling assumptions like its going out of style. But anyway. Where now do I rate him? As a winner? Or as a fantasy guy? As a guy Id build my team around? Or as a guy Id want on the last drive of the SB? As a leader? Or as a guy who's gonna sell jerseys, put up #s, and move the turnstiles? You see, that's a complicated question. And Im making it as difficult as possible unnecessarily. I never said Cutler was, in your words, incapable of winning. Didnt say it. I said he hasnt had a winning season since high school. I never said he couldnt win. Just that he hasnt. Point being, for all this hubbabaloo he's causing right now, you'd think the guy would have a deeper resume' than just some nice #s for a couple of years and a single Pro Bowl. Not that its chopped liver. Its not. But heck, even if he'd had alot more it would still be intolerable behavior. I mentioned Derek Anderson's name because he'd accomplished more or less than same thing prior to last season. Yet, he wasnt pitching a fit that he had Brady Quinn breathing down his neck. Nor did he when he got pulled. Its professional football and things happen. Im sure Anderson understands that. In most cases, if you dont win, youre not going to be afforded the privilege of making trade demands. So, again just to reiterate the point, for a guy who hasnt won since HS, he sure is acting like a spoiled brat. A short-sighted opinion in alot of ways probably. But nevertheless, just one man's opinion. You dont have to like it.

As for the list. Id definitely put him in the top 10. 19? No such disrespect here. And to try and pinpoint exactly where he'd fall wouldnt really serve much purpose. But because I think he's capable of being a top 10 Q, Im just that much more disappointed in the guy. He just needs to get over it. Everyone makes mistakes. Cutler, McDaniels, the owner, the GM, the agent. They just all need to get over it and move on. Im not buying the whole, "you lied to me, broke my heart, and now I cant trust you anymore" play. That's ridiculous.