Cutler will not report on Monday (1 Viewer)

[Banger]

2. You are right, but I know a few Panther fans that would love to get rid of Jake.

I'm not one of them. I think the Panthers need to start looking for someone to learn behind Jake, but I will take Jake and his great leadership skills and older arm over Jay Cutler and his immature behavior any day. Cutler won't be a Panther. He isn't the type of person Richardson, tjtHurney, and Fox seek to lead their team.

All this leadership stuff is too much. Has there been any indication from his prior coach, teammates, anyone, that Cutler has leadership issues? I've been following him very closely since he was drafted (and prior to that) and have never heard anything of the sort from any source, in fact I've read a number of things to the contrary. Now all the sudden a new coach comes in and makes an absolute mess and Cutler doesn't trust or want to play for that coach and now he has leadership issues? Delhomme isn't in Cutlers league in terms of QB abilities.

Exactly. Why did his teammates vote him as a Team Captain if they didn't think he was a leader?

And you know what? I kindof feel a little bad for those teammates right now. They respected that guy enough to make him a captain. And now, he's completely bailing on them. Some captain. Not much of a leader if you ask me.

what does that say about a rookie coach who's willing to trade the teams leader and best player? I feel bad for those teammates right now.

 

[Banger]

Banger. New York talk radio?? Seriously? What do you think that desperate group of fans are gonna do? You dont think they did the exact same thing for Favre last year? Who cares what the fans on talk radio have to say? That's just hilarious.

whats more hillarious is the thought of going into the season with Ratliff, Clemens and Erik Ainge as their 3 qb's. Ya, they are probably better off with them...As a NE fan I can see why you'd like the situation to remain status quo...

 

[Ghost Rider]

what does that say about a rookie coach who's willing to trade the teams leader and best player?

Not much at all. Right now, McDaniels is pretty much a joke, and you have to wonder, if they trade Cutler, if he will lose the team before he coaches his first game. Players on the team are not gonna be happy about seeing their QB and team captain get traded like that. And they won't blame Cutler for asking for the trade. They will blame the rookie head coach who came in with zero credibility for forcing Cutler into asking for a trade.

 

[ScottyFargo]

This is one of the more pitiful stories Ive heard in a long, long time. Cutler is making TO look like a model of maturity at this stage. Cry me a freakin' river. What a cry baby. "Whaaa. I cant trust my coach any more. Somebody give me a new deal with $30mil extra guaranteed before I call my mommy". Weak. The guy is weak. What GOOD team wants that guy QBing their franchise?

The Bears, and this Bear Fan.

The Vikings, Tampa, Jets, Dolphins, Carolina,.....

Is it me, or am I not seeing any of those teams lining up for that knucklehead right now? Someone really thinks Parcells wants any part of that nightmare? No. And Cutler with that thin skin in NY?? Following the Favre nightmare? Are you serious? MN obviously seems willing to settle with their situation. I'll scratch them off as well. Tampa and Carolina make sense, but Carolina doesnt have a 1st. Tampa? Somebody make that call. Chicago makes more sense than any of these teams. I agree with the Bears fan, here. And I didnt mean to insult your franchise, but I wasnt thinking Chicago when I posed that question.

Cutler is better than any QB the Vikings, Bears, Jets, Lions and Tampa Bay have. There is NO WAY 25 year old quality QBs ever become available except for extreme screwups, and this one would qualify for that, whether you blame Cutler or Denver. So, we have a talented QB who could change any of these teams futures for the next decade, and I don't believe there's any way the Vikings would let trading a 4th round pick for Sage Rosenfels weigh them down from trying to get set at QB for a decade. It would be too bad for Rosenfels as that situation has already occured to him in Texas, but as so many people seem willing to throw in Cutlers face, this is a business. I liked the trade for Rosenfels, but I won't feel bad for him if he ends up making 3 million a year to be an NFL #2 or 3 QB.Vikings owner Wilf has said the Vikings were happy with the QB they have when asked about Cutler, but that is really not indicative of whether or not they'd go against what Speilman said and blow another draft to get Cutler should he be on the block. Cutler is under contract and there is no way anybody can say one word or the other publicly about how they feel about him.No team saw Cutler becoming available before this offseason began. He very well might be now, that is going to change how a lot of franchises look at their QB situations. It's all going to boil down to how it plays out in Denver, and who is willing to put up what to offer.My theory is that if he is traded Detroit is the most likely as they have the most to deal in picks. I doubt that Denver wants the responsibility of the #1 pick, and Detroit would be hard pressed to offer Cutler a new contract AND pay 30 million guaranteed to their 1st round pick, so this situation is still pretty sticky.Minnesota would have to offer starters and there's no telling if they'd be interested in Chester Taylor / Antoine Winfield plus a pick. In reality, I think Denver has no choice but to offer Cutler an extension and give him some more guaranteed money. Unless they really like some of the other QBs in this draft I don't see them wanting to take a step back at QB.

 

[twitch]

Banger. New York talk radio?? Seriously? What do you think that desperate group of fans are gonna do? You dont think they did the exact same thing for Favre last year? Who cares what the fans on talk radio have to say? That's just hilarious.

whats more hillarious is the thought of going into the season with Ratliff, Clemens and Erik Ainge as their 3 qb's. Ya, they are probably better off with them...As a NE fan I can see why you'd like the situation to remain status quo...

I couldnt honestly care less who the Jets QB is. Im just not seeing him hold up to that NY pressure. But I totally agree that the Jets current QB situation is looking weak. Who knows, maybe they have a plan. Is Cutler a Rex Ryan kindof guy? An old school kindof guy? Does the immature, greedy, whiny card play in NY? I dont know. I almost hope we get to find out.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Now, no one is saying it's a FACT that McDaniels was the instigator in the trade talks. However, NO ONE except a few closely involved knows the truth to this. Some are believing the Denver side in that they simply fielded calls and Cutler is overreacting. Others, such as myself, believe that McDaniels DID try to instigate the trade talks and then denied that fact to Cutler. Regardless of who is right, this is what JAY CUTLER believes, at least so he says. But, that's all we have to go by.So no, it's not just a post here and sheep flocking to that idea. This is what Jay has been saying in his interviews and I happen to believe that's how it went down. I think McDaniels did more than just field phone calls and then tried to cover that part up. And I didn't get that opinion from what I read on these boards.At this point, it's nothing more than he-said, she-said in a your-word-against-mine battle of Cutler vs. McDaniels. Cutler says he did, McDaniels said he didn't. You're asking for one credible link that proves McDaniels lied to Cutler. I'll ask you for one credible link that proves he didn't. One doesn't exist on either side or this debate would be over and we'd know who is telling the truth. As of right now, we don't know who is telling the truth, but the idea that Cutler was lied to was not instigated on this forum. It's come straight from Cutler's mouth in several interviews. Given the course of actions so far and McDaniels handling of the situation, I think it's the more common sense explanation. You don't have to agree.

So basically this entire situation boils down to whether McDaniel answered the phone or punched in the digits? Cutler is throwing the entire franchise under the bus, refusing to come to offseason workouts, demanding trades, etc. because he personally believes (w/o any evidence) that McDaniel dialed the phone instead of answering the call? And folks are actually taking Cutler's side of the story (again, w/o evidence) because of what? Wow. Unbelievable.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

LOL, I think you know that's impossible. Sometimes you have to read between the lines and when I do that, I get that he lied to Cutler. There was a link in which McDaniels refused to say whether or not he tried to trade Cutler, or some variation of that. I think refusals to clarify something like that mean that the person did it and doesn't want to admit it, but YMMV.

It seems like what the public hears and what goes on behind closed doors is expected to be 2 different things...McDaniels being evasive to the media in now way means he has lied to Cutler. That tact is used ALL THE TIME.Lets stop saying Cutler was lied too unless someone can provide a link that actually says so.

Sorry, I think he was lied to based on all the quotes and stories that have come out. You choose not to think that.

I'm just looking for one credible link... I know it has been said a thousand times in this thread, but all it seems to take for some of the sheep around here is to read it in a post. I'd just like to see where it's coming from. I haven't seen a credible source say "McDaniels lied to Cutler". I've seen plenty that would indicate he was shopping Cutler without his knowledge but thats as far as it goes. Everything else has been spin.....

it's kind of hard to get a link to a private conversation between 2 people. All you can do is look at the result of the meeting and Cutler's actions and what he's saying since the meeting.

Well then everyone is formulating their own conclusion....Couldn't the conclusion be that he didn't like losing his coaches, isn't happy with his current contract, and isn't happy that he's being shopped? I think that's very likely.I just don't see hoe Cutler being mad equals McDaniels Lied. I haven't seen a credible source that would bring me to that conclusion.

 

[tommyGunZ]

what does that say about a rookie coach who's willing to trade the teams leader and best player?

Not much at all. Right now, McDaniels is pretty much a joke, and you have to wonder, if they trade Cutler, if he will lose the team before he coaches his first game. Players on the team are not gonna be happy about seeing their QB and team captain get traded like that. And they won't blame Cutler for asking for the trade. They will blame the rookie head coach who came in with zero credibility for forcing Cutler into asking for a trade.

Depends on how respected Cutler is in the locker room. I'm sure there will be guys pissed off about this mess. And I'm sure there are plenty of guys who think Jay's being a baby. Lots of guys in the locker room have been traded, cut, released, etc. I doubt they have much sympathy for the golden child getting his feelings hurt b/c his name was mentioned in a trade.

 

[Ghost Rider]

So basically this entire situation boils down to whether McDaniel answered the phone or punched in the digits? Cutler is throwing the entire franchise under the bus, refusing to come to offseason workouts, demanding trades, etc. because he personally believes (w/o any evidence) that McDaniel dialed the phone instead of answering the call?

Okay, I know you are smarter than this, so I am chalking this up to .

 

[twitch]

Now, no one is saying it's a FACT that McDaniels was the instigator in the trade talks. However, NO ONE except a few closely involved knows the truth to this. Some are believing the Denver side in that they simply fielded calls and Cutler is overreacting. Others, such as myself, believe that McDaniels DID try to instigate the trade talks and then denied that fact to Cutler. Regardless of who is right, this is what JAY CUTLER believes, at least so he says. But, that's all we have to go by.

So no, it's not just a post here and sheep flocking to that idea. This is what Jay has been saying in his interviews and I happen to believe that's how it went down. I think McDaniels did more than just field phone calls and then tried to cover that part up. And I didn't get that opinion from what I read on these boards.

At this point, it's nothing more than he-said, she-said in a your-word-against-mine battle of Cutler vs. McDaniels. Cutler says he did, McDaniels said he didn't. You're asking for one credible link that proves McDaniels lied to Cutler. I'll ask you for one credible link that proves he didn't. One doesn't exist on either side or this debate would be over and we'd know who is telling the truth. As of right now, we don't know who is telling the truth, but the idea that Cutler was lied to was not instigated on this forum. It's come straight from Cutler's mouth in several interviews. Given the course of actions so far and McDaniels handling of the situation, I think it's the more common sense explanation. You don't have to agree.

So basically this entire situation boils down to whether McDaniel answered the phone or punched in the digits? Cutler is throwing the entire franchise under the bus, refusing to come to offseason workouts, demanding trades, etc. because he personally believes (w/o any evidence) that McDaniel dialed the phone instead of answering the call? And folks are actually taking Cutler's side of the story (again, w/o evidence) because of what?

Wow. Unbelievable.

Unfortunately, you as a Chargers fan and myself as a Pats fan are only viewed as being unreasonable haters in these discussions to a degree. Comical. But youre of course absolutely right. The guy blowing off the owner, turning his back on his teammates, demanding a trade, being irrational, making it all about the money - that guy - he's the sensible one. I know youre rolling on the floor with this.

 

[tommyGunZ]

it's kind of hard to get a link to a private conversation between 2 people. All you can do is look at the result of the meeting and Cutler's actions and what he's saying since the meeting.

Well then everyone is formulating their own conclusion....Couldn't the conclusion be that he didn't like losing his coaches, isn't happy with his current contract, and isn't happy that he's being shopped? I think that's very likely.I just don't see hoe Cutler being mad equals McDaniels Lied. I haven't seen a credible source that would bring me to that conclusion.

I agree 100%. In order to buy the "McDaniels lied" story, you have to believe Cutler's version of events in which he wasn't even present. After seeing how much of a drama queen he is, how can anyone take his account of events in which he wasn't even there seriously?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

LOL, I think you know that's impossible. Sometimes you have to read between the lines and when I do that, I get that he lied to Cutler. There was a link in which McDaniels refused to say whether or not he tried to trade Cutler, or some variation of that. I think refusals to clarify something like that mean that the person did it and doesn't want to admit it, but YMMV.

It seems like what the public hears and what goes on behind closed doors is expected to be 2 different things...McDaniels being evasive to the media in now way means he has lied to Cutler. That tact is used ALL THE TIME.

Lets stop saying Cutler was lied too unless someone can provide a link that actually says so.

Sorry, I think he was lied to based on all the quotes and stories that have come out. You choose not to think that.

I'm just looking for one credible link... I know it has been said a thousand times in this thread, but all it seems to take for some of the sheep around here is to read it in a post. I'd just like to see where it's coming from. I haven't seen a credible source say "McDaniels lied to Cutler". I've seen plenty that would indicate he was shopping Cutler without his knowledge but thats as far as it goes. Everything else has been spin.....

The HEADLINE of this story on ESPN is "Cutler says he can't trust McDaniels".http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3983805

There have been many other reports out there with similar details. Cutler says McDaniels lied to him. Whether you believe Cutler or not is up to you, but I think it's fairly obvious that CUTLER believes it.

What are you looking for? I deposition from McDaniels asserting "I lied to Jay Cutler."? You aren't going to get it, or anything like it. All you are going to get is what McDaniels is saying to the press (which isn't much), and what Cutler/Cook are saying to the press. That's all you ever get in situations like this. Demanding a "link" is just silly.

I read the WHOLE article... NOTHING in there even implied that McDaniels was being deceptive, much less "Lied to Cutler"

 

[FUBAR]

McDaniels turned a guy that had never played a game since HS into a solid NFL QB.

I wouldn't be surprised if he could do the same with a much more talented, yet flawed QB in Matt Leniert.

I think you forgot that they had the best WR in the NFL, another very good WR, a very good line and arguably the best coach in the game and a solid defense. The same is not true in Denver.

3/5 ain't a bad start. (ok, Marshall isn't the best in the game, but he's in the upper echelon)

I put Marshall on par with or a little above Welker. Royal is average at this point...NE's line>>Denver..so maybe 1/5.

Welker isn't a good comparison to Marshall. BM isn't Moss yet, but he's right behind him. Royal and Welker are pretty close in talent. Scheffler's better than NE's 3rd option.

There are different ways to evaluate the OL, but when Cutler is only sacked 11 times vs. Cassel's 47, I'm giving a good amount of the credit to the line. Denver's RBs netted almost a half a yard more per carry than the Patriots RBs did. Tied for 2nd best in the league.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

2. You are right, but I know a few Panther fans that would love to get rid of Jake.

I'm not one of them. I think the Panthers need to start looking for someone to learn behind Jake, but I will take Jake and his great leadership skills and older arm over Jay Cutler and his immature behavior any day. Cutler won't be a Panther. He isn't the type of person Richardson, tjtHurney, and Fox seek to lead their team.

All this leadership stuff is too much. Has there been any indication from his prior coach, teammates, anyone, that Cutler has leadership issues? I've been following him very closely since he was drafted (and prior to that) and have never heard anything of the sort from any source, in fact I've read a number of things to the contrary. Now all the sudden a new coach comes in and makes an absolute mess and Cutler doesn't trust or want to play for that coach and now he has leadership issues? Delhomme isn't in Cutlers league in terms of QB abilities.

Delhomme, who wasn't even drafted, led the Panthers to the Super Bowl his first year as a starting QB. He has led them to two NFC Championship games, and to the playoffs 3 seasons. It more than likely would have been more than that if Carolina hadn't been stricken with so many injuries over the last several years. Delhomme is several years older than Cutler now, and has had major surgery to his throwing arm, so of course Cutler is better than Delhomme in QB abilities, and Delhomme has never had a throwing arm like Cutler, but he has always had the ability to make the Panthers believe they can win. Cutler is nothing close to being the leader that Delhomme is. I also can't imagine Delhomme ever saying that he has a better arm than another QB in the NFL, and especially one that was so popular in the same organization. I can't imagine Delhomme putting down another player in the NFL let alone saying it to the press. I can't imagine Delhomme throwing a complete fit about anything related to the Panthers and their decisions. He certainly gets fiery on the field sometimes with the refs calls, but he never disrespects players or coaches, and he always takes accountability for things that go wrong. He might not be at the peak of his career anymore, but he is still a class act.

 

[Banger]

McDaniels turned a guy that had never played a game since HS into a solid NFL QB.

I wouldn't be surprised if he could do the same with a much more talented, yet flawed QB in Matt Leniert.

I think you forgot that they had the best WR in the NFL, another very good WR, a very good line and arguably the best coach in the game and a solid defense. The same is not true in Denver.

3/5 ain't a bad start. (ok, Marshall isn't the best in the game, but he's in the upper echelon)

I put Marshall on par with or a little above Welker. Royal is average at this point...NE's line>>Denver..so maybe 1/5.

Welker isn't a good comparison to Marshall. BM isn't Moss yet, but he's right behind him. Royal and Welker are pretty close in talent. Scheffler's better than NE's 3rd option.

There are different ways to evaluate the OL, but when Cutler is only sacked 11 times vs. Cassel's 47, I'm giving a good amount of the credit to the line. Denver's RBs netted almost a half a yard more per carry than the Patriots RBs did. Tied for 2nd best in the league.

compare Brady's sack total the prior year even with the record setting amount of attempts. It was Cassel not the line. Cutler has a tremendously quick release like Favre which leads to a lot fewer sacks. Denver's line wasn't horrible but they were middle of the pack IMO. Last year NE was ranked 4th going into the season and Denver was ranked 16th.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Management has also embarked on completely changing the system you work in, which had been highly successful.

17-20 is "highly successful"????

TGunz,Do you genuinely believe the measure of a QB's success is his team's W-L record? Because if that's how QB's are going to be judged by the public and historians, were I the next great QB-in-waiting, I would insist on a clause in my contract that entitles me to hire/fire the team's defensive and special teams coordinators. I know you've seen some of Cutler's worst performances as a Chargers fan, but you're a super smart dude who I love debating in these threads and have to ask, in all honesty, do you really not think Cutler has been successful? To my mind he's done just about as much as a guy in his position can do. Is he the best? No. But is he one of a handful of young passers in the NFL I would see building a team around? Absolutely.

I'm actually a big fan of Cutler's on field performance overall - I just think it takes a lot of ballz to show the kind of leverage he apparently thinks he has at this point. And the Broncos record in his starts is a big part of that. Obviously W/L record isn't the definitive measure of QB success (I'm not a Trent Dilfer > Dan Marino guy) but it's impossible to completely separate the two. Cutler isn't Denver's problem, the offensive statistics bear that out, but I've watched enough Bronco games to know that some of his boneheaded throws have cost his team. His howitzer is a thing of beauty, but often he'd be much better off checking to the flats instead of forcing it to Marshall or Royal 20 yrds down the field. In sum, I think those ready to completely excuse his W/L record because of his total passing yards the past two years are giving him too much leeway. But I'm not a hater,at all. With good coaching and a willingness to learn to take what he's given, I think he'll be a Pro Bowler for years. Unfortunately, I worry about his ability to adapt and grow especially given this recent turn of events.

 

[Moonlight_Graham]

Jay Cutler-QB-Broncos Mar. 17 - 11:51 am et

ESPN's John Clayton believes the cost for Jay Cutler would be a first-round, second-round, and third-round pick.

Clayton is basing this on the price to acquire rocket-armed 26-year-old Jeff George back in 1993, the last time a quarterback of Cutler's caliber hit the market in his prime. Broncos coach Josh McDaniels has stated that he's not interested in a draft-pick return, leaving him without a quarterback. He might not have a choice.

Source: ESPN.com

 

[Buffaloes]

McDaniels turned a guy that had never played a game since HS into a solid NFL QB.

I wouldn't be surprised if he could do the same with a much more talented, yet flawed QB in Matt Leniert.

I think you forgot that they had the best WR in the NFL, another very good WR, a very good line and arguably the best coach in the game and a solid defense. The same is not true in Denver.

3/5 ain't a bad start. (ok, Marshall isn't the best in the game, but he's in the upper echelon)

I put Marshall on par with or a little above Welker. Royal is average at this point...NE's line>>Denver..so maybe 1/5.

Royal is average at this point? He led all rookies in receptions and was in the top 10 in receptions his rookie year. And what would give you any indication that NE has a better OL than Denver? The Denver running game tied for 2nd in the league with a 4.8 ypc despite its running back injuries. The Denver OL also had the lowest sack to pass attempt ratio in the NFL last year.

 

[MSULions]

Jay Cutler-QB-Broncos Mar. 17 - 11:51 am et ESPN's John Clayton believes the cost for Jay Cutler would be a first-round, second-round, and third-round pick.Clayton is basing this on the price to acquire rocket-armed 26-year-old Jeff George back in 1993, the last time a quarterback of Cutler's caliber hit the market in his prime. Broncos coach Josh McDaniels has stated that he's not interested in a draft-pick return, leaving him without a quarterback. He might not have a choice. Source: ESPN.com

The Market's a tad different than it was in 1993 there Clayton.

 

[moleculo]

an interesting quote from Pat Bowlen, circa 1994:

"John is certainly an important part of the Denver Broncos as far as his ability to perform, and I guess that gives him a unique position to some extent," Bowlen said. "But he's still a player. He's not a coach and he's not an administrator. He's a player, and he gets paid very, very well for playing. And players often have a different view of reality. I have to stress that. I know John well and I listen to what he has to say, but you've got to remember that players are players and owners are owners and coaches are coaches. I've learned in eight years in the league that you really have to be careful how you accept the players' opinions, as opposed to reality.

"That's the difference between being a player and being a head coach. The head coach is the guy who is responsible for putting the game plans together and for running the game. Maybe John feels he doesn't get enough attention, but that's just the way it is. It's more likely Dan would lose his job if he loses a bunch of football games than John would lose his."

At this point, Elway had led the Broncos to three SB's - a heck of a lot more than Cutler has accomplished. At the same time, Reeves was fired, mostly due to a rift that involved trading Elway to Washington and the drafting of Tommy Maddox.Despite Bowlens comments though, Elway ended up winning that QB vs Coach battle.

 

[FUBAR]

compare Brady's sack total the prior year even with the record setting amount of attempts. It was Cassel not the line. Cutler has a tremendously quick release like Favre which leads to a lot fewer sacks. Denver's line wasn't horrible but they were middle of the pack IMO. Last year NE was ranked 4th going into the season and Denver was ranked 16th.

21 sacks, 3.5% vs. Cutler's 1.8%. Favre's best year was 2.2%, career wise he's 4.8%. So yes, Denver's OL is a lot better than average. Honestly, did you even watch any Denver games last year? Cutler's good, but the OL was one of the best.

 

[Banger]

McDaniels turned a guy that had never played a game since HS into a solid NFL QB.

I wouldn't be surprised if he could do the same with a much more talented, yet flawed QB in Matt Leniert.

I think you forgot that they had the best WR in the NFL, another very good WR, a very good line and arguably the best coach in the game and a solid defense. The same is not true in Denver.

3/5 ain't a bad start. (ok, Marshall isn't the best in the game, but he's in the upper echelon)

I put Marshall on par with or a little above Welker. Royal is average at this point...NE's line>>Denver..so maybe 1/5.

Royal is average at this point? He led all rookies in receptions and was in the top 10 in receptions his rookie year. And what would give you any indication that NE has a better OL than Denver? The Denver running game tied for 2nd in the league with a 4.8 ypc despite its running back injuries. The Denver OL also had the lowest sack to pass attempt ratio in the NFL last year.

you think Cutler had anything to do with Royal's year and the fact that teams were doing everything possible to shut down Marshall? Granted though Royal is slightly above average (average being the 32nd best wr) maybe 28th, 29th,

 

[Finless]

Jay Cutler-QB-Broncos Mar. 17 - 11:51 am et ESPN's John Clayton believes the cost for Jay Cutler would be a first-round, second-round, and third-round pick.Clayton is basing this on the price to acquire rocket-armed 26-year-old Jeff George back in 1993, the last time a quarterback of Cutler's caliber hit the market in his prime. Broncos coach Josh McDaniels has stated that he's not interested in a draft-pick return, leaving him without a quarterback. He might not have a choice. Source: ESPN.com

That's way too much. I like the George comparison. Another headcase with a big arm. 1st 2nd and 3rd

 

[Buffaloes]

you think Cutler had anything to do with Royal's year and the fact that teams were doing everything possible to shut down Marshall? Granted though Royal is slightly above average (average being the 32nd best wr) maybe 28th, 29th,

I wouldn't call him elite but I would say he's much better than average. I don't think the bolded argument holds much water considering what he did in the 1 game Marshall was suspended. I still don't understand why you think NE has a better OL than Denver.

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

Posted this in another thread, but since this seems to be the reigning Cutler thread, thought I'd put it in here as well. It's just a story that might interest you - I'm not trying to debate anything...

Here's a (short) story, which I heard last fall and I have on good account. I guess I should preface it by saying I'm a Denver fan...

Cutler joined a CC. He was not following some rules, and thought he could continue to act as he pleased. One day he's hanging around with his hat backward and a T, which wasn't allowed and he obviously knew as much. Now, I don't know the specifics of the confrontation and/or issue(s) therein, but here's the gist of it. The President went and got a $100,000 check (his membership) and told him he was gone.

Obviously, it took more than just the one incident to reach a point where the Denver Broncos star QB gets ousted from a Denver CC. And I would think he had a longer leash to begin with, which is telling. He indeed has a serious attitude problem, to me anyway.

Since hearing that, I've looked at him a little differently, and these recent events only make even more sense to me. He is reminding me a bit of [gasp] Jeff George, and I hate saying that.

 

[FUBAR]

Posted this in another thread, but since this seems to be the reigning Cutler thread, thought I'd put it in here as well. It's just a story that might interest you - I'm not trying to debate anything...Here's a (short) story, which I heard last fall and I have on good account. I guess I should preface it by saying I'm a Denver fan...Cutler joined a CC. He was not following some rules, and thought he could continue to act as he pleased. One day he's hanging around with his hat backward and a T, which wasn't allowed and he obviously knew as much. Now, I don't know the specifics of the confrontation and/or issue(s) therein, but here's the gist of it. The President went and got a $100,000 check (his membership) and told him he was gone.Obviously, it took more than just the one incident to reach a point where the Denver Broncos star QB gets ousted from a Denver CC. And I would think he had a longer leash to begin with, which is telling. He indeed has a serious attitude problem, to me anyway.Since hearing that, I've looked at him a little differently, and these recent events only make even more sense to me. He is reminding me a bit of [gasp] Jeff George, and I hate saying that.

but was he drinking beer?

 

[BoulderBob]

Angelo might as well pony up the picks, the odds are he wouldn't use them wisely anyway...

 

[rct]

Posted this in another thread, but since this seems to be the reigning Cutler thread, thought I'd put it in here as well. It's just a story that might interest you - I'm not trying to debate anything...Here's a (short) story, which I heard last fall and I have on good account. I guess I should preface it by saying I'm a Denver fan...Cutler joined a CC. He was not following some rules, and thought he could continue to act as he pleased. One day he's hanging around with his hat backward and a T, which wasn't allowed and he obviously knew as much. Now, I don't know the specifics of the confrontation and/or issue(s) therein, but here's the gist of it. The President went and got a $100,000 check (his membership) and told him he was gone.Obviously, it took more than just the one incident to reach a point where the Denver Broncos star QB gets ousted from a Denver CC. And I would think he had a longer leash to begin with, which is telling. He indeed has a serious attitude problem, to me anyway.Since hearing that, I've looked at him a little differently, and these recent events only make even more sense to me. He is reminding me a bit of [gasp] Jeff George, and I hate saying that.

Story has an urban legend feel about it - obviously a link can't be provide, but it doesn't ring quite true to me.

 

[Jason Wood]

Posted this in another thread, but since this seems to be the reigning Cutler thread, thought I'd put it in here as well. It's just a story that might interest you - I'm not trying to debate anything...Here's a (short) story, which I heard last fall and I have on good account. I guess I should preface it by saying I'm a Denver fan...Cutler joined a CC. He was not following some rules, and thought he could continue to act as he pleased. One day he's hanging around with his hat backward and a T, which wasn't allowed and he obviously knew as much. Now, I don't know the specifics of the confrontation and/or issue(s) therein, but here's the gist of it. The President went and got a $100,000 check (his membership) and told him he was gone.Obviously, it took more than just the one incident to reach a point where the Denver Broncos star QB gets ousted from a Denver CC. And I would think he had a longer leash to begin with, which is telling. He indeed has a serious attitude problem, to me anyway.Since hearing that, I've looked at him a little differently, and these recent events only make even more sense to me. He is reminding me a bit of [gasp] Jeff George, and I hate saying that.

Story has an urban legend feel about it - obviously a link can't be provide, but it doesn't ring quite true to me.

Even if the story were true, I don't see how it's germane to the conversation. Why is everyone focusing on who is right or wrong here? Or who is more mature? It's all moot. All that matters is that as of March 17, 2009 Jay Cutler wants to be traded and Pat Bowlen and Josh McDaniels have publicly been open to at least exploring the possibility.A person can be an immature pompous jerk and still be right to be professionally offended. They're not mutually exclusive.At the end of the day this comes down to a mutual lack of respect for each other. Not surprising given their ages and the sport they play/coach. These are guys who live in a world of high testosterone and bravado, why should be surprised neither is backing down amicably?

 

[massraider]

an interesting quote from Pat Bowlen, circa 1994:

"John is certainly an important part of the Denver Broncos as far as his ability to perform, and I guess that gives him a unique position to some extent," Bowlen said. "But he's still a player. He's not a coach and he's not an administrator. He's a player, and he gets paid very, very well for playing. And players often have a different view of reality. I have to stress that. I know John well and I listen to what he has to say, but you've got to remember that players are players and owners are owners and coaches are coaches. I've learned in eight years in the league that you really have to be careful how you accept the players' opinions, as opposed to reality.

"That's the difference between being a player and being a head coach. The head coach is the guy who is responsible for putting the game plans together and for running the game. Maybe John feels he doesn't get enough attention, but that's just the way it is. It's more likely Dan would lose his job if he loses a bunch of football games than John would lose his."

At this point, Elway had led the Broncos to three SB's - a heck of a lot more than Cutler has accomplished. At the same time, Reeves was fired, mostly due to a rift that involved trading Elway to Washington and the drafting of Tommy Maddox.Despite Bowlens comments though, Elway ended up winning that QB vs Coach battle.

Let's not forget how Elway wound up in Denver. He forced a team to trade him before he had accomplished anything. There is a very long history of players forcing their way out of cities, and going on to a great career.This nonsense about other teams not wanting Cutler because he's a "baby", or his teammates resenting him, is a joke. If Cutler stays in Denver, and throws 4 TDs Week 1, all his teammates will love him.

 

[bryan215]

McDaniels nees to get Cutler by himself in a room and have a long chat with him.

Its obvious why McDaniels wanted Cassell and would have traded Cutler for him. If Mike Shannahan took over the Cowboys and had a chance to trade Romo for Cutler...he'd do it.

McDaniels also need to go into detail about what he likes and doesn't like about Jay as a QB and why - I assume it is more the mental/leadership/maturity that he seems to lack in comparison to Cassell, Brady etc.

Then McDaniels needs to make a firm commitment to Cutler ( its not like there are better options available after all) and maybe even offer an olive branch like a contract extension etc.

If after all that Cutler still has his panties in a bunch and wants to be traded....then get rid of him cuz why would you want that big of an immature baby as your QB? Better to rid yourself of him and move on despite the fallout.

 

[tommyGunZ]

At the end of the day this comes down to a mutual lack of respect for each other. Not surprising given their ages and the sport they play/coach. These are guys who live in a world of high testosterone and bravado, why should be surprised neither is backing down amicably?

I agree with this, although I attribute McDaniel/Bowlen's refusal to back down as being a function of their positions at the top of the organization. Cutler's immaturity isn't surprising, but the lack of counsel (or his refusal to follow that counsel) is. This is why agents and handlers get paid big bucks.

 

[BigJim®]

Jay Cutler-QB-Broncos Mar. 17 - 11:51 am et ESPN's John Clayton believes the cost for Jay Cutler would be a first-round, second-round, and third-round pick.

As a Viking fan, I pay this price without wasting a moment's thought. I would not even bemoan further that we would have wasted our 4th going after Rosenfels.

 

[LBH]

The Jets are "chomping at the bit" to acquire Jay Cutler from the Broncos, according to the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

The New York papers haven't gone this far, but have confirmed that the Jets are tracking Cutler's situation. The Plain Dealer speculates that the Browns would be willing to give up Derek Anderson or Brady Quinn in a three-team trade. Quinn knows the Broncos' offense well from his college days.Source: Cleveland Plain Dealer Related: Browns, Jets

 

[ScottyFargo]

Jay Cutler-QB-Broncos Mar. 17 - 11:51 am et ESPN's John Clayton believes the cost for Jay Cutler would be a first-round, second-round, and third-round pick.

As a Viking fan, I pay this price without wasting a moment's thought. I would not even bemoan further that we would have wasted our 4th going after Rosenfels.

I can't help but agree. I would much rather not blow all those picks, but spending one draft and getting a guaranteed improvement at both the starting and backup QB position would be fantastic. It would place a lot of pressure on next years draft and Free Agency period however.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Jay Cutler-QB-Broncos Mar. 17 - 11:51 am et ESPN's John Clayton believes the cost for Jay Cutler would be a first-round, second-round, and third-round pick.

As a Viking fan, I pay this price without wasting a moment's thought. I would not even bemoan further that we would have wasted our 4th going after Rosenfels.

I can't help but agree. I would much rather not blow all those picks, but spending one draft and getting a guaranteed improvement at both the starting and backup QB position would be fantastic. It would place a lot of pressure on next years draft and Free Agency period however.

Wonder if the Broncos would take Sage in the deal instead of the 3rd?

 

[thesurfshop19]

Hey GunZ -- I'm interested in your perspective in particular because you went through this with a star player for the Lakers.Do you draw any parallels to that situation? To me, Kobe had more justifiable leverage and it was clearly motivated by a desire to win a championship vs. feeling professionally slighted (especially since Kobe can't make more money from another team). That said -- how did Lakers fans feel about Kobe back then, and when was "it's just business" put behind everyone?EDIT: Just to clarify, my position on this has been generally more pro-Cutler, although I think both sides are being borderline ridiculous. I think, like was the case with John Elway, you do have to tailor your approach when it comes to star players, and yes, while it's not PC, there are some players who you have to treat differently. Definitely open to other perspectives, though!

 

[encaitar]

Jay Cutler-QB-Broncos Mar. 17 - 11:51 am et ESPN's John Clayton believes the cost for Jay Cutler would be a first-round, second-round, and third-round pick.

As a Viking fan, I pay this price without wasting a moment's thought. I would not even bemoan further that we would have wasted our 4th going after Rosenfels.

I can't help but agree. I would much rather not blow all those picks, but spending one draft and getting a guaranteed improvement at both the starting and backup QB position would be fantastic. It would place a lot of pressure on next years draft and Free Agency period however.

Wonder if the Broncos would take Sage in the deal instead of the 3rd?

If the Broncos ever accepted a deal with the Vikings, it would have to include either Sage or TJ. I'm sure they don't look like great options, but without Cutler the Broncos only have Simms and they'd at least need a solid backup, if not someone who could win the starting job. This is mainly why I don't believe the Vikings are in the mix for Cutler.

 

[encaitar]

What I don't get is why people can't admit that McDaniels and the Broncos organization ####ed up? Yes, I believe that anyone can be traded. I know that players are expendable no matter how big of an impact they bring, but if you entertain offers for your "present and future of the franchise" star QB and don't get him moved then you ####ed up. When the news leaked about this, McDaniel should have been knocking down Cutler's door trying to explain it, rather than just expecting him to be ok with it. Denver needs to pony up the cash and get this situation swept under the rug, otherwise their offseason program is going to be nothing but a big distraction.

 

[cstu]

Jay Cutler-QB-Broncos Mar. 17 - 11:51 am et ESPN's John Clayton believes the cost for Jay Cutler would be a first-round, second-round, and third-round pick.

As a Viking fan, I pay this price without wasting a moment's thought. I would not even bemoan further that we would have wasted our 4th going after Rosenfels.

I can't help but agree. I would much rather not blow all those picks, but spending one draft and getting a guaranteed improvement at both the starting and backup QB position would be fantastic. It would place a lot of pressure on next years draft and Free Agency period however.

That trade should be a no brainer for the Vikes. QB is the missing piece (no offense to ISU alum Sage) and the Vikes aren't going to get a franchise QB at 1.22.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Hey GunZ -- I'm interested in your perspective in particular because you went through this with a star player for the Lakers.Do you draw any parallels to that situation? To me, Kobe had more justifiable leverage and it was clearly motivated by a desire to win a championship vs. feeling professionally slighted (especially since Kobe can't make more money from another team). That said -- how did Lakers fans feel about Kobe back then, and when was "it's just business" put behind everyone?EDIT: Just to clarify, my position on this has been generally more pro-Cutler, although I think both sides are being borderline ridiculous. I think, like was the case with John Elway, you do have to tailor your approach when it comes to star players, and yes, while it's not PC, there are some players who you have to treat differently. Definitely open to other perspectives, though!

Well, as you mentioned, the situations are very different, mostly b/c Kobe's anger with the franchise was his perception that they weren't making enough effort to "win now". I sided with Laker management (dealing Bynum for Kidd would have been stupid) but I certainly understood and in some ways respected Kobe's position, even if I didn't respect the means in which he went about his trade demands. At one point during Kobe's summer of whining, I threw up my hands and was ready for him to be dealt; I'm not a big fan of keeping people around (in sports, business, work, etc) who don't want to be there. Taking Kobe back and forgiving his immaturity was easy in large part b/c he was already an established HOFer by that point, and his anger was strictly based on the Lakers not winning. This Cutler fiasco is completely different - a 17-20 QB who has made 1 Pro Bowl comes off as a whiny prima donna when he demands a trade b/c his feelings are hurt.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Jay Cutler-QB-Broncos Mar. 17 - 11:51 am et ESPN's John Clayton believes the cost for Jay Cutler would be a first-round, second-round, and third-round pick.Clayton is basing this on the price to acquire rocket-armed 26-year-old Jeff George back in 1993, the last time a quarterback of Cutler's caliber hit the market in his prime. Broncos coach Josh McDaniels has stated that he's not interested in a draft-pick return, leaving him without a quarterback. He might not have a choice. Source: ESPN.com

Clayton is really out of his mind in the comparison because it is clear that the draft picks are not as valuable as they once were because of the burden of the cost (specifically the 1st round)That being said, this is why I would trade for Cutler though as you have a good idea of what you are getting for your money. There is no question I would give up a 1st and 3rd round for Cutler. Adding a 2nd is a lot though as I value the 2nd rounder tremendously

 

[Jeremy]

This whole thing reeks of mismanagement to me. I'm generally all for management taking the "hard line" with dip#### players when the situation merits it (and in most cases, it does).

But this just makes no sense. First, why even go AFTER another QB in the first place? Just because the coach coached him before? You have a top shelf offense, and a bottom-feeding defense the year before, and you want your big splash in the offseason to be bringing in a new QB to replace the young talented QB you already have on contract (and CHEAP as well, I might add)? That's dumb part one.

Dumb part two is lying to the face of your franchise. According to Cutler, his MAIN beef with management is that they told him that they were not going after another QB, and that they were not actively trying to trade him. Given that it seems incredibly stupid to me in the first place, I can see where it would be difficult to try to explain that to the guy you are trying to get rid of, but as an "experienced" NFL guy, you should KNOW this stuff always gets out eventually, and that when it does you are going to look like even more of a schmuck. Gotta man up if you want the respect.

Dumb part three is not massaging the situation even AFTER it blew up. SHOULD an NFL head coach have to coddle a player? In a perfect world, absolutely not. But come on. This is still a very YOUNG man you dealing with. He came into the league and has done really good things for the most part (don't want to overplay this, but I think most would agree that he has at least been as good as advertised). Then all of the sudden, the only head coach he has had in the NFL gets canned. His offensive coordinator (who he has had a lot of success with) gets canned. His best friend on the team is being actively shopped. And the year after he goes to the Pro Bowl, his brand new coach who he has NO relationship with has LIED to him, and has been actively trying to replace him. I mean what do you guys calling Cutler a baby and whiner really expect? As 25 year old multi-millionaire starting NFL QB coming off of a very successful season, how would YOU feel about what gone down in Denver this off-season? You'd be saying WTF too. And where is the team now? You've either got a very pissed off QB trying to "lead" your team, or even if you still want to dump him, you've just lowered his trade value since the league KNOWS he's dying to get out of your city. Either way, you've hosed yourself. Yes, a coach should run his team. He's he boss. But there is a REASON franchise QBs make MORE money than coaches. They are critical to a teams success to say the least. As a coach or a front office guy, you MIGHT give that a little thought.

While I don't don't think Cutler as managed his end perfectly, I put the overall blame for this entire fiasco squarely on management. The whole things has been ridiculous.

Particularly in the Mortensen article linked elsewhere (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3983805), I think the blame for this fiasco lies squarely on management.

Which is page 1 of the Bus Cook playbook. Make the player look like the victim to help them win the media battle. It really isn't a coincidence that Cook did the same thing with Favre and McNair. Really, I won't even get into these debates about who's right anymore. It's irrelevant because Cook is the one manipulating the media and using them to paint his clients as victims. That's how he gets leverage while his clients come out looking like they don't shoulder any blame. Heck, some of them even get sympathy from the fan base.

Considering this is the third time we've seen this play out, you'd think more people would catch on to Cook's tactics.

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if this was already posted...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writ...ex.html?eref=T1

 

[ScottyFargo]

Which is page 1 of the Bus Cook playbook. Make the player look like the victim to help them win the media battle. It really isn't a coincidence that Cook did the same thing with Favre and McNair.

Really, I won't even get into these debates about who's right anymore. It's irrelevant because Cook is the one manipulating the media and using them to paint his clients as victims. That's how he gets leverage while his clients come out looking like they don't shoulder any blame. Heck, some of them even get sympathy from the fan base.

Considering this is the third time we've seen this play out, you'd think more people would catch on to Cook's tactics.

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if this was already posted...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writ...ex.html?eref=T1

Didn't McNair and Favre have nice, long careers in Tennessee and Green Bay before there were issues? Seems to me like he's just trying to do right by his clients.

 

[zdaddy]

Posted this in another thread, but since this seems to be the reigning Cutler thread, thought I'd put it in here as well. It's just a story that might interest you - I'm not trying to debate anything...Here's a (short) story, which I heard last fall and I have on good account. I guess I should preface it by saying I'm a Denver fan...Cutler joined a CC. He was not following some rules, and thought he could continue to act as he pleased. One day he's hanging around with his hat backward and a T, which wasn't allowed and he obviously knew as much. Now, I don't know the specifics of the confrontation and/or issue(s) therein, but here's the gist of it. The President went and got a $100,000 check (his membership) and told him he was gone.Obviously, it took more than just the one incident to reach a point where the Denver Broncos star QB gets ousted from a Denver CC. And I would think he had a longer leash to begin with, which is telling. He indeed has a serious attitude problem, to me anyway.Since hearing that, I've looked at him a little differently, and these recent events only make even more sense to me. He is reminding me a bit of [gasp] Jeff George, and I hate saying that.

When this all started I was bashing McDaniels, Cutler I thought was the answer. But the way this is playing out, I'm starting to think that maybe Cutler is not the guy to lead this team for the next 10 years. Maybe McDaniels see that, don't know. But at this point, I'm okay with him leaving if Denver can get good value in return.

 

[az_prof]

And you know what? I kindof feel a little bad for those teammates right now. They respected that guy enough to make him a captain. And now, he's completely bailing on them. Some captain. Not much of a leader if you ask me.

what does that say about a rookie coach who's willing to trade the teams leader and best player? I feel bad for those teammates right now.

My thoughts exactly. I feel bad for Denver fans because this does not bode well. A HC needs to realize that one of his first tasks is to establish a good rapport with his franchise QB. Your success is totally dependent on his.

 

[az_prof]

I find the whole "blame the agent" and "blame the player" a bit tiring. The agent wasn't shopping his player; the TEAM was. Let's not lose sight of who started this boat. It wasn't Cutler and it wasn't his agent.

Secondly, things wouldn't have progressed from bad to worse if the HC had dealt in a straight up manner with the player. The same SI article above:

"As for Jay [Cutler], he didn't ask to be traded until he was told by Josh McDaniels in that meeting last Saturday that they couldn't tell him he wouldn't be traded at some point in the future."

This isn't just a player being pissy. This is a HC not being straight with his team's leader. Why can't he man up and tell him "yes, we want to go in a different direction and are trying to trade you before the draft" or "no, you are the guy I want leading this team on the field--let's talk about the offense and how you fit into it."

 

[twitch]

"Leader" is a relative term. The HC wasnt dealing with a leader. He was dealing with Jay Cutler.

 

[az_prof]

"Leader" is a relative term. The HC wasnt dealing with a leader. He was dealing with Jay Cutler.

What is the basis of your statement? Because the team leader expected to be treated with some respect?

 

[twitch]

The last 2 weeks have pretty much served as the basis. Its unprecedented, really. I cant recall such absolute buffoonery in a "leader".