Deangelo Williams (1 Viewer)

[Tau837]

However, I also think there's a good chance DeWill signs elsewhere after next year and it will be Stewart's job in that magical 3rd year. At that point, I wouldn't be surprised if Carolina drafts ANOTHER RB in the 1st/2nd round and we can have the same argument again.

I gather you are saying you think there is a good chance Williams leaves after 2009 which enables Stewart to start in 2010, his third year. But Williams won't be able to "sign" somewhere else after 2009, since he is under contract through 2010. I suppose it is possible Carolina could trade him after the 2009 season, but I think that is pretty unlikely, given they are getting great play from him and his 2010 salary is only $725K.From Rotoworld:

7/27/2006: Signed a five-year, $14.5 million contract. The deal includes $5 million guaranteed. Another $3 million is available through incentives. 2009: $645,000, 2010: $725,000, 2011: Free Agent

Or maybe you meant Williams would sign elsewhere after 2010, enabling Stewart to be the unquestioned starter in 2011, his 4th season...?

 

[meanjoegreen]

However, I also think there's a good chance DeWill signs elsewhere after next year and it will be Stewart's job in that magical 3rd year. At that point, I wouldn't be surprised if Carolina drafts ANOTHER RB in the 1st/2nd round and we can have the same argument again.

Williams has two years left on his contract. This season and next season.

 

[The Man With No Name]

However, I also think there's a good chance DeWill signs elsewhere after next year and it will be Stewart's job in that magical 3rd year. At that point, I wouldn't be surprised if Carolina drafts ANOTHER RB in the 1st/2nd round and we can have the same argument again.

Williams has two years left on his contract. This season and next season.

"After next year" is what he posted.Next year is 2010

 

[Tau837]

However, I also think there's a good chance DeWill signs elsewhere after next year and it will be Stewart's job in that magical 3rd year. At that point, I wouldn't be surprised if Carolina drafts ANOTHER RB in the 1st/2nd round and we can have the same argument again.

Williams has two years left on his contract. This season and next season.

"After next year" is what he posted.Next year is 2010

Yes, but he correlated that with Stewart getting the job as a result in "that magical 3rd year." If Stewart gets the job because Williams leaves after 2010, it will be Stewart's 4th year.

 

[BearsFan]

However, I also think there's a good chance DeWill signs elsewhere after next year and it will be Stewart's job in that magical 3rd year. At that point, I wouldn't be surprised if Carolina drafts ANOTHER RB in the 1st/2nd round and we can have the same argument again.

Williams has two years left on his contract. This season and next season.

"After next year" is what he posted.Next year is 2010

Did I miss the 2009 season? What happened?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Carolina ran the ball 475 times this past year. I wouldn't imagine that changing much with the way their offense is built. Stewart only got 100 less carries than Deangelo this year. Even if gets over 200 this year Deangelo should still have well over 250 touches. As long as he continues to average 5.5 yards a rush his numbers will still be high.

I'm going to be a broken record by the middle of summer, but it is very dangerous to project identical numbers for almost any player year to year. I can name a handful of players that toss out the same stats on a yearly basis and to be honest most of them are not always the topflight players...the most consistent RB IMO at this particular point is likely Clinton Portis...I had it drilled into my head last summer but it is kinda true, yet most don't even talk about him with a top5 pick. Be very careful where you are projecting DWill right now because there is no way in hell he is going to replicate those TD totals from a year ago. And the only times that Carolina has had North of 450+ carries, or we'll say top5-10 in the NFL in just pure attempts, all those years Carolina won a lot of games and went into the playoffs. They went 11-5 last year and had a pretty soft schedule IIRC, now they ahve a 1st place schedule, a so-so QB that they did not address, an All-Pro DE that wants out of Dodge come hell or high water...this team is not a great team in the sense of eveyone being on the same page.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

However, I also think there's a good chance DeWill signs elsewhere after next year and it will be Stewart's job in that magical 3rd year. At that point, I wouldn't be surprised if Carolina drafts ANOTHER RB in the 1st/2nd round and we can have the same argument again.

Williams has two years left on his contract. This season and next season.

"After next year" is what he posted.Next year is 2010

Did I miss the 2009 season? What happened?

The Bears won the Super Bowl

 

[Biabreakable]

Carolina ran the ball 475 times this past year. I wouldn't imagine that changing much with the way their offense is built. Stewart only got 100 less carries than Deangelo this year. Even if gets over 200 this year Deangelo should still have well over 250 touches. As long as he continues to average 5.5 yards a rush his numbers will still be high.

I'm going to be a broken record by the middle of summer, but it is very dangerous to project identical numbers for almost any player year to year. I can name a handful of players that toss out the same stats on a yearly basis and to be honest most of them are not always the topflight players...the most consistent RB IMO at this particular point is likely Clinton Portis...I had it drilled into my head last summer but it is kinda true, yet most don't even talk about him with a top5 pick.

Glad to hear we are on the same page in regards to Portis.5.5 ypc is fantastic. You would think, and some argued that if Williams gets over 200 carries his ypc would go down. The opposite actualy happened.Here is the carolina rushing offense under Fox:RUSHING (Plays-Average Yards) 2008 504 - 4.8 2007 451 - 4.02006 423 - 3.92005 487 - 3.42004 422 - 3.72003 522 - 4.02002 452 - 3.5Last season was clearly the best rushing effort ever mustered by the Panthers. Having in excess of 500 rushing attempts looks like a target goal as long as the team is averaging over 4ypc.Including the 2 seasons where the Panthers had multiple RB injuries (thus limiting rushing attempts) the team averages 466 rushing attempts a season. They run primarily with their 2 top RB. The QB does not run often.There are enough carries here for Williams to get 250 and Stewart still getting 180-200 depending on how effective the rushing offense is overall. I would expect a 2 to 1 ratio or 70/30 split for the distribution.In the 3 years Williams has been with the Panthers he has always led the team in ypc. But even using the team averages while Williams has been with the team 4.8 4.0 and 3.9 that would be 4.23 ypc The Panthers have never run the ball less than 450 times when they have averaged 4 ypc or more.

 

[travdogg]

There are enough carries here for Williams to get 250 and Stewart still getting 180-200 depending on how effective the rushing offense is overall. I would expect a 2 to 1 ratio or 70/30 split for the distribution.

I would be extremely surprised if that split were anywhere near that big, it wasn't that big this year and Stewart was never really all that healthy this year.It was about a 60-40 split this year, I don't think with a healthy Stewart its unreasonable at all for it to become a 55-45 split, I could see DeAngelo getting 250 and Stewart getting 200, but that's a 55-45 split.

 

[Biabreakable]

Last season

DeAngelo Williams 273 carries 1515 yards 5.5 ypc 18TD 22 catches 121 yards 2TD

Jonathan Stewart 184 carries 836 yards 4.5 ypc 10TD 8 catches 47 yards

So 295 touches to 192 that is 487 total touches. Previous numbers did not include receptions.

That is a 60/40 split. I guess I got a little carried away. Stewart is hopefully healthy now.

Honestly I think this will continue to be a great tandem over the next 2 years as long as both guys can stay healthy. I am guessing the rushing attempts will be a lot closer to 500 than 466 in the 2009 season.

Panthers taking a later round RB 3-4th round wouldn't suprise me.

 

[Phlash]

I posted this in another thread but feel it's worth repeating.

Let me add something else for some of you to consider, particularly the ones saying DeAngelo is going to fall off this list:The following are 2 lists:List of guys with 18+ rushing TDs in a single season (from pro-football reference):1. LaDainian Tomlinson (27) 28 2006 SDG2. Priest Holmes (30) 27 2003 KANShaun Alexander (28) 27 2005 SEA4. Emmitt Smith (26) 25 1995 DAL5. John Riggins+ (34) 24 1983 WAS6. Terrell Davis (26) 21 1998 DENPriest Holmes (29) 21 2002 KANEmmitt Smith (25) 21 1994 DALTerry Allen (28) 21 1996 WASJoe Morris (25) 21 1985 NYG11. Larry Johnson (26) 20 2005 KAN12. Chuck Muncie (28) 19 1981 SDGEarl Campbell+ (24) 19 1979 HOUJim Taylor+ (27) 19 1962 GNB15. Spec Sanders (29) 18 1947 NYYDeAngelo Williams (25) 18 2008 CARLaDainian Tomlinson (26) 18 2005 SDGMarshall Faulk (27) 18 2000 STLEmmitt Smith (23) 18 1992 DALGeorge Rogers (28) 18 1986 WASEric Dickerson+ (23) 18 1983 RAMHere is the list of players who have averaged 5.4 ypc or higher with over 200 carries1 Jim Brown rb 1963 27 7 14 291 1863 6.40 12 303.102 Barry Sanders rb 1997 29 9 16 335 2053 6.13 11 319.803 O.J. Simpson rb 1973 26 5 14 332 2003 6.03 12 279.304 Jim Brown rb 1960 24 4 12 215 1257 5.85 9 212.105 Barry Sanders rb 1994 26 6 16 331 1883 5.69 7 264.606 Adrian Peterson rb 2007 22 1 14 238 1341 5.63 12 238.907 James Brooks rb 1989 31 9 16 221 1239 5.61 7 208.508 Eric Dickerson rb 1984 24 2 16 379 2105 5.55 14 306.409 DeAngelo Williams rb 2008 25 3 16 274 1518 5.54 18 283.9010 Clinton Portis rb 2002 21 1 16 273 1508 5.52 15 289.2011 O.J. Simpson rb 1975 28 7 14 329 1817 5.52 16 362.3012 Clinton Portis rb 2003 22 2 13 290 1591 5.49 14 274.5013 Walter Payton rb 1977 23 3 14 339 1852 5.46 14 308.1014 Leroy Kelly rb 1966 24 3 14 209 1141 5.46 15 246.7015 Marshall Faulk rb 1999 26 6 16 253 1381 5.46 7 314.9016 Robert Smith rb 1997 25 5 14 232 1266 5.46 6 188.3017 Frank Gore rb 2006 23 2 16 312 1695 5.43 8 272.0018 Jim Taylor rb 1962 27 5 14 272 1474 5.42 19 272.00Take a very good look at both of those lists. You're looking at a collection of a lot of HOF's on that list and some other very, very good RB's. DeAngelo's #'s weren't just pretty good, they were spectacular given the fact he was sharing time. On those 2 lists, there are only 4 guys that were able to accomplish both feats in their careers:M. FaulkE. DickersonJim TaylorDeAngelo Williams2 of those guys are already in the HOF (Dickerson, Taylor) and Faulk is a lock when he's eligible. Now, I'm not saying he's going to run for 1500 yds and score 20 TDs again, but for those of you thinking he's going to fall off, I'd take a closer look at those lists and what he was able to accomplish. You don't perform like that without talent. If he were to fall off, he'd pretty much be the 1st guy to do it after putting up the numbers he did. I think too many people are writing off DeAngelo's 2008 as a "fluke" and I personally don't think THOSE kind of totals he put are "fluke totals". Stewart may be good and he's gonna get his share of touches, but make no mistake that DeAngelo is the #1 RB in Carolina and he's going to get his touches and I'm pretty sure he's going to excel with them. DeAngelo was a 1st round pick himself just 3 short years ago and he actually performed quite well during his 1st 2 years as well despite having limited touches due to the coaching staff.

 

[gianmarco]

However, I also think there's a good chance DeWill signs elsewhere after next year and it will be Stewart's job in that magical 3rd year. At that point, I wouldn't be surprised if Carolina drafts ANOTHER RB in the 1st/2nd round and we can have the same argument again.

I gather you are saying you think there is a good chance Williams leaves after 2009 which enables Stewart to start in 2010, his third year. But Williams won't be able to "sign" somewhere else after 2009, since he is under contract through 2010. I suppose it is possible Carolina could trade him after the 2009 season, but I think that is pretty unlikely, given they are getting great play from him and his 2010 salary is only $725K.From Rotoworld:

7/27/2006: Signed a five-year, $14.5 million contract. The deal includes $5 million guaranteed. Another $3 million is available through incentives. 2009: $645,000, 2010: $725,000, 2011: Free Agent

Or maybe you meant Williams would sign elsewhere after 2010, enabling Stewart to be the unquestioned starter in 2011, his 4th season...?

No, I did mean 2010. I know that Williams is signed through 2010. Carolina will have a choice after 2010 (assuming he has another good 2009 campaign): Sign him to a very large contract and keep him paired with Stewart or let him walk in FA and get absolutely nothing back for him. Thus, the above was assuming that he is indeed traded before the last year of his contract (i.e. after this 2009 season) so that Carolina gets something in return for him and they then make Stewart the featured started in 2010. If DeAngelo does well enough this year to warrant them keeping him in 2010 with the intent of signing him for a big contract, that's just going to be that much worse for Stewart as his shot at quality playing time in Carolina will decreased even more.

So yes, I'm assuming that unless Carolina breaks trend and resigns DeAngelo to a large contract, they will likely trade him after 2009 so that they at least get something back for him instead of getting nothing by letting him walk after 2010. It is very possible that this is DeAngelo's last year as a Panther, IMO.

 

[meanjoegreen]

If DeAngelo does well enough this year to warrant them keeping him in 2010 with the intent of signing him for a big contract, that's just going to be that much worse for Stewart as his shot at quality playing time in Carolina will decreased even more.So yes, I'm assuming that unless Carolina breaks trend and resigns DeAngelo to a large contract, they will likely trade him after 2009 so that they at least get something back for him instead of getting nothing by letting him walk after 2010. It is very possible that this is DeAngelo's last year as a Panther, IMO.

I think you are missing the point that Carolina likes have two gifted running backs. Carolina likes having a running back by committee. For fantasy football purposes that isn't ideal, but for the Carolina Panthers it is a very good situation. Carolina's focus is on their running game, and they are not going to jeopardize that by trading away Williams before his contract is over. They like the one two punch with Williams and Stewart. I don't know why people act like they must chose to keep one and get rid of the other. They want them both.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Carolina ran the ball 475 times this past year. I wouldn't imagine that changing much with the way their offense is built. Stewart only got 100 less carries than Deangelo this year. Even if gets over 200 this year Deangelo should still have well over 250 touches. As long as he continues to average 5.5 yards a rush his numbers will still be high.

I'm going to be a broken record by the middle of summer, but it is very dangerous to project identical numbers for almost any player year to year. I can name a handful of players that toss out the same stats on a yearly basis and to be honest most of them are not always the topflight players...the most consistent RB IMO at this particular point is likely Clinton Portis...I had it drilled into my head last summer but it is kinda true, yet most don't even talk about him with a top5 pick.

Glad to hear we are on the same page in regards to Portis.5.5 ypc is fantastic. You would think, and some argued that if Williams gets over 200 carries his ypc would go down. The opposite actualy happened.Here is the carolina rushing offense under Fox:RUSHING (Plays-Average Yards) 2008 504 - 4.8 2007 451 - 4.02006 423 - 3.92005 487 - 3.42004 422 - 3.72003 522 - 4.02002 452 - 3.5Last season was clearly the best rushing effort ever mustered by the Panthers. Having in excess of 500 rushing attempts looks like a target goal as long as the team is averaging over 4ypc.Including the 2 seasons where the Panthers had multiple RB injuries (thus limiting rushing attempts) the team averages 466 rushing attempts a season. They run primarily with their 2 top RB. The QB does not run often.There are enough carries here for Williams to get 250 and Stewart still getting 180-200 depending on how effective the rushing offense is overall. I would expect a 2 to 1 ratio or 70/30 split for the distribution.In the 3 years Williams has been with the Panthers he has always led the team in ypc. But even using the team averages while Williams has been with the team 4.8 4.0 and 3.9 that would be 4.23 ypc The Panthers have never run the ball less than 450 times when they have averaged 4 ypc or more.

Excellent post, love the use of the stats, in fact I had been hoping someone would post up those numbers, excellent!

 

[gianmarco]

If DeAngelo does well enough this year to warrant them keeping him in 2010 with the intent of signing him for a big contract, that's just going to be that much worse for Stewart as his shot at quality playing time in Carolina will decreased even more.So yes, I'm assuming that unless Carolina breaks trend and resigns DeAngelo to a large contract, they will likely trade him after 2009 so that they at least get something back for him instead of getting nothing by letting him walk after 2010. It is very possible that this is DeAngelo's last year as a Panther, IMO.

I think you are missing the point that Carolina likes have two gifted running backs. Carolina likes having a running back by committee. For fantasy football purposes that isn't ideal, but for the Carolina Panthers it is a very good situation. Carolina's focus is on their running game, and they are not going to jeopardize that by trading away Williams before his contract is over. They like the one two punch with Williams and Stewart. I don't know why people act like they must chose to keep one and get rid of the other. They want them both.

Yes, they like having 2 RBs. What they have yet to show is that they want to tie up a lot of money in a contract for a RB. If DeAngelo has another solid 2009 year, he's going to be VERY expensive to keep after 2010. Thus, it's very possible that they continue doing what they are doing. Use DeAngelo while his rookie contract is relatively cheap. Before it's up, get some value back, draft another RB, and make Stewart the primary guy and the rookie the #2 punch. I'm not missing the point about what they do at all. I just don't think they will spend a fortune to keep DeAngelo AND Stewart, which is what it will cost to do so. And if they don't trade him after the 2009 year, then he will walk away and they get nothing after the 2010 year. Options:1. Trade him after 20092. Let him walk after 2010 for free3. Sign him to a large contract after 2010Which of those do YOU feel is most likely to happen given their history and knowing they have Stewart on the roster? Again, my guess is they do option #1 and draft another RB in the 1st or 2nd round in 2010 to compliment Stewart. It's what they have seemed to do for several years now.

 

[meanjoegreen]

1. Trade him after 20092. Let him walk after 2010 for free3. Sign him to a large contract after 2010Which of those do YOU feel is most likely to happen given their history and knowing they have Stewart on the roster?

Thinks can change in two years such as injuries, lack of production, change in personnel, etc., but if Fox is still the coach and both RB's are doing well, I think they will try to extend or resign Williams, and if they can't they will slap the franchise tag on him.

 

[The Man With No Name]

If DeAngelo does well enough this year to warrant them keeping him in 2010 with the intent of signing him for a big contract, that's just going to be that much worse for Stewart as his shot at quality playing time in Carolina will decreased even more.So yes, I'm assuming that unless Carolina breaks trend and resigns DeAngelo to a large contract, they will likely trade him after 2009 so that they at least get something back for him instead of getting nothing by letting him walk after 2010. It is very possible that this is DeAngelo's last year as a Panther, IMO.

I think you are missing the point that Carolina likes have two gifted running backs. Carolina likes having a running back by committee. For fantasy football purposes that isn't ideal, but for the Carolina Panthers it is a very good situation. Carolina's focus is on their running game, and they are not going to jeopardize that by trading away Williams before his contract is over. They like the one two punch with Williams and Stewart. I don't know why people act like they must chose to keep one and get rid of the other. They want them both.

Yes, they like having 2 RBs. What they have yet to show is that they want to tie up a lot of money in a contract for a RB. If DeAngelo has another solid 2009 year, he's going to be VERY expensive to keep after 2010. Thus, it's very possible that they continue doing what they are doing. Use DeAngelo while his rookie contract is relatively cheap. Before it's up, get some value back, draft another RB, and make Stewart the primary guy and the rookie the #2 punch. I'm not missing the point about what they do at all. I just don't think they will spend a fortune to keep DeAngelo AND Stewart, which is what it will cost to do so. And if they don't trade him after the 2009 year, then he will walk away and they get nothing after the 2010 year. Options:1. Trade him after 20092. Let him walk after 2010 for a compensatory pick3. Sign him to a large contract after 2010Which of those do YOU feel is most likely to happen given their history and knowing they have Stewart on the roster? Again, my guess is they do option #1 and draft another RB in the 1st or 2nd round in 2010 to compliment Stewart. It's what they have seemed to do for several years now.

#2Teams don't just trade away good players in the last year of their contract just because it's the last year of their contract. If they feel they have a chance to win in 2010 (they should) he isn't going anywhere then.Then #3 or extend his contract after 2009.

 

[Tau837]

If DeAngelo does well enough this year to warrant them keeping him in 2010 with the intent of signing him for a big contract, that's just going to be that much worse for Stewart as his shot at quality playing time in Carolina will decreased even more.

So yes, I'm assuming that unless Carolina breaks trend and resigns DeAngelo to a large contract, they will likely trade him after 2009 so that they at least get something back for him instead of getting nothing by letting him walk after 2010. It is very possible that this is DeAngelo's last year as a Panther, IMO.

I think you are missing the point that Carolina likes have two gifted running backs. Carolina likes having a running back by committee. For fantasy football purposes that isn't ideal, but for the Carolina Panthers it is a very good situation. Carolina's focus is on their running game, and they are not going to jeopardize that by trading away Williams before his contract is over. They like the one two punch with Williams and Stewart. I don't know why people act like they must chose to keep one and get rid of the other. They want them both.

Yes, they like having 2 RBs. What they have yet to show is that they want to tie up a lot of money in a contract for a RB. If DeAngelo has another solid 2009 year, he's going to be VERY expensive to keep after 2010. Thus, it's very possible that they continue doing what they are doing. Use DeAngelo while his rookie contract is relatively cheap. Before it's up, get some value back, draft another RB, and make Stewart the primary guy and the rookie the #2 punch. I'm not missing the point about what they do at all. I just don't think they will spend a fortune to keep DeAngelo AND Stewart, which is what it will cost to do so. And if they don't trade him after the 2009 year, then he will walk away and they get nothing after the 2010 year.

Options:

1. Trade him after 2009

2. Let him walk after 2010 for a compensatory pick

3. Sign him to a large contract after 2010

Which of those do YOU feel is most likely to happen given their history and knowing they have Stewart on the roster? Again, my guess is they do option #1 and draft another RB in the 1st or 2nd round in 2010 to compliment Stewart. It's what they have seemed to do for several years now.

#2Teams don't just trade away good players in the last year of their contract just because it's the last year of their contract. If they feel they have a chance to win in 2010 (they should) he isn't going anywhere then.

Then #3 or extend his contract after 2009.

It is ironic that gianmarco is emphasizing that the Panthers want to "Use DeAngelo while his rookie contract is relatively cheap", yet insisting that they will trade him after 2009 when he will stand to make only $725K in 2010.

 

[Loan Sharks]

Long term value? = Boatloads

 

[whitewizard]

i am willing to admit i am talking out of my butt if you can explain why in 07 when williams clearly out produced foster he did not get more touches.

No one can give you a definitive answer except for John Fox himself. However, I can provide a theory (much like your posts are a theory). To be honest, I don't agree with your assessment of the situation at all because you're looking at it without considering what John Fox has done in the past as well.I think this year finally gave us the answer to a question that many had posed. Was Foster still the starter bc Fox thought he was better or because he's more loyal to vets and is slow to give 1st and 2nd year players the job? When Foster was brought in, many thought he looked better than S. Davis but he had to wait his turn. Then they drafted DeWill in the 1st round and everyone was convinced he'd have the starting job. Yet, he had to sit behind Foster for 2 years. Then, Carolina takes Stewart in the 1st round and many thought it was because he was the destined starter (much like DeWill 2 years earlier), and lo and behold, DeWill was the starter on day 1 and has remained there since then. Some may point that it was because of his performance, but in fact, DeWill started off the year quite slowly and didn't do anything to really "win" the job. Yet, it remained his and allowed him to put together the year he has.I think at this point it can be reasonably concluded that Fox simply does not trust rookie and even 2nd year RB's to be lead ball carriers for his team even if they are outproducing the more veteran players. We've now seen this happen 3 times in a row. The argument that DeWill must not be good because he couldn't beat out Foster was incorrect, IMHO. He was clearly putting up better #'s, they shipped off Foster and kept DeWill, and despite the fact they drafted Stewart in the 1st round, I do NOT think it was because they did not think DeAngelo was up to the task. To me, this is simply how Fox does things. And if someone is arguing that DeWill's 2008 season is a fluke and that in his 1st 2 years he couldn't even beat out Foster, then I really think that's faulty thinking. The past several years in Carolina have proven that to be the case.Foster was a 2nd round pick and did not get the starting job until his 3rd year despite outperforming S. DavisDeWill was a 1st round pick and did not get the starting job until his 3rd year despite outperforming D. FosterJ. Stewart was a 1st round pick and did not get the starting job despite the fact that everyone thought DeWill wasn't even good enough to beat out Foster. Unless by injury or miracle, I don't see Stewart having the starting job until his 3rd year (at the earliest). However, I also think there's a good chance DeWill signs elsewhere after next year and it will be Stewart's job in that magical 3rd year. At that point, I wouldn't be surprised if Carolina drafts ANOTHER RB in the 1st/2nd round and we can have the same argument again.

ok i admit i did not know fox's history about starting RBs. that does makes sense then about the better stats and why williams was not starting. also i was not saying williams was not able to win the job over foster or stewart it just looked to me like fox did not like williams, and that that might have been the reaon why he was not starting. i drafted him like 5th round in 07 and it bugged me trying to figure out why he would not start williams when he is outproducing foster. again i understand the method at least a little bit more, it is a stubborn idea that seems like it could hurt the team overall at times, but i get it. also i am not arguing that williams 08 season was a fluke. what i am arguing is that as long as stewart is healthy fox will try to distribute the ball more evenly between the 2 guys to keep both fresh. also i think with stewart being more of a marion barber, bruising type guy he will get more red sone carries, and that williams will be more or a felix jones blazing speed, but better all around to take things in when called on. again not questioning williams ability or skill i like him i was questioning the way he would be given the ball. so thanks for the help i had a theory as to why williams was not getting the carries for someone of his production and value based off #s. the insight is appreciated but i still stand by general assumption for his production next year.

 

[msommer]

If DeAngelo does well enough this year to warrant them keeping him in 2010 with the intent of signing him for a big contract, that's just going to be that much worse for Stewart as his shot at quality playing time in Carolina will decreased even more.So yes, I'm assuming that unless Carolina breaks trend and resigns DeAngelo to a large contract, they will likely trade him after 2009 so that they at least get something back for him instead of getting nothing by letting him walk after 2010. It is very possible that this is DeAngelo's last year as a Panther, IMO.

I think you are missing the point that Carolina likes have two gifted running backs. Carolina likes having a running back by committee. For fantasy football purposes that isn't ideal, but for the Carolina Panthers it is a very good situation. Carolina's focus is on their running game, and they are not going to jeopardize that by trading away Williams before his contract is over. They like the one two punch with Williams and Stewart. I don't know why people act like they must chose to keep one and get rid of the other. They want them both.

Yes, they like having 2 RBs. What they have yet to show is that they want to tie up a lot of money in a contract for a RB. If DeAngelo has another solid 2009 year, he's going to be VERY expensive to keep after 2010. Thus, it's very possible that they continue doing what they are doing. Use DeAngelo while his rookie contract is relatively cheap. Before it's up, get some value back, draft another RB, and make Stewart the primary guy and the rookie the #2 punch. I'm not missing the point about what they do at all. I just don't think they will spend a fortune to keep DeAngelo AND Stewart, which is what it will cost to do so. And if they don't trade him after the 2009 year, then he will walk away and they get nothing after the 2010 year. Options:1. Trade him after 20092. Let him walk after 2010 for a compensatory pick3. Sign him to a large contract after 2010Which of those do YOU feel is most likely to happen given their history and knowing they have Stewart on the roster? Again, my guess is they do option #1 and draft another RB in the 1st or 2nd round in 2010 to compliment Stewart. It's what they have seemed to do for several years now.

#2Teams don't just trade away good players in the last year of their contract just because it's the last year of their contract. If they feel they have a chance to win in 2010 (they should) he isn't going anywhere then.Then #3 or extend his contract after 2009.

#4. Franchise Williams after 2010 season and let both play another season together, then extend whoever performs best while drafting another RB as secondary ballcarrier

 

[msommer]

i am willing to admit i am talking out of my butt if you can explain why in 07 when williams clearly out produced foster he did not get more touches.

No one can give you a definitive answer except for John Fox himself. However, I can provide a theory (much like your posts are a theory). To be honest, I don't agree with your assessment of the situation at all because you're looking at it without considering what John Fox has done in the past as well.I think this year finally gave us the answer to a question that many had posed. Was Foster still the starter bc Fox thought he was better or because he's more loyal to vets and is slow to give 1st and 2nd year players the job? When Foster was brought in, many thought he looked better than S. Davis but he had to wait his turn. Then they drafted DeWill in the 1st round and everyone was convinced he'd have the starting job. Yet, he had to sit behind Foster for 2 years. Then, Carolina takes Stewart in the 1st round and many thought it was because he was the destined starter (much like DeWill 2 years earlier), and lo and behold, DeWill was the starter on day 1 and has remained there since then. Some may point that it was because of his performance, but in fact, DeWill started off the year quite slowly and didn't do anything to really "win" the job. Yet, it remained his and allowed him to put together the year he has.I think at this point it can be reasonably concluded that Fox simply does not trust rookie and even 2nd year RB's to be lead ball carriers for his team even if they are outproducing the more veteran players. We've now seen this happen 3 times in a row. The argument that DeWill must not be good because he couldn't beat out Foster was incorrect, IMHO. He was clearly putting up better #'s, they shipped off Foster and kept DeWill, and despite the fact they drafted Stewart in the 1st round, I do NOT think it was because they did not think DeAngelo was up to the task. To me, this is simply how Fox does things. And if someone is arguing that DeWill's 2008 season is a fluke and that in his 1st 2 years he couldn't even beat out Foster, then I really think that's faulty thinking. The past several years in Carolina have proven that to be the case.Foster was a 2nd round pick and did not get the starting job until his 3rd year despite outperforming S. DavisDeWill was a 1st round pick and did not get the starting job until his 3rd year despite outperforming D. FosterJ. Stewart was a 1st round pick and did not get the starting job despite the fact that everyone thought DeWill wasn't even good enough to beat out Foster. Unless by injury or miracle, I don't see Stewart having the starting job until his 3rd year (at the earliest). However, I also think there's a good chance DeWill signs elsewhere after next year and it will be Stewart's job in that magical 3rd year. At that point, I wouldn't be surprised if Carolina drafts ANOTHER RB in the 1st/2nd round and we can have the same argument again.

ok i admit i did not know fox's history about starting RBs. that does makes sense then about the better stats and why williams was not starting. also i was not saying williams was not able to win the job over foster or stewart it just looked to me like fox did not like williams, and that that might have been the reaon why he was not starting. i drafted him like 5th round in 07 and it bugged me trying to figure out why he would not start williams when he is outproducing foster. again i understand the method at least a little bit more, it is a stubborn idea that seems like it could hurt the team overall at times, but i get it. also i am not arguing that williams 08 season was a fluke. what i am arguing is that as long as stewart is healthy fox will try to distribute the ball more evenly between the 2 guys to keep both fresh. also i think with stewart being more of a marion barber, bruising type guy he will get more red sone carries, and that williams will be more or a felix jones blazing speed, but better all around to take things in when called on. again not questioning williams ability or skill i like him i was questioning the way he would be given the ball. so thanks for the help i had a theory as to why williams was not getting the carries for someone of his production and value based off #s. the insight is appreciated but i still stand by general assumption for his production next year.

It was also reported last offseason that Williams had dedicated himself to improving his blocking. This could give some reason why Fox stuck with Foster for so long desppite Williams having better ypc. If you are getting your QB killed you won't see much playing time. So, unless Stewart sucks at blocking we essentially have a new situation, different from Stephen Davis/Foster (unless Foster was a good blocker early) and different from Foster/Williams.

 

[Ripleys]

I just traded Bush for DeAngelo in 2 different 1 PPR dynasty leagues. After watching every panthers game last year, I think he is for real.

 

[Brutis]

I just traded Bush for DeAngelo in 2 different 1 PPR dynasty leagues. After watching every panthers game last year, I think he is for real.

Great trade for you