DFS Scandals BEGIN - "INSIDER "TRADING" " (1 Viewer)

[bagger]

The entire reason fantasy football was allowable was because the factor of time and multiple games upped the "skill" factor involved and supposedly minimized luck. That's why single game wagering is illegal while fantasy sports is not. My guess is legislators quickly step in and deem one week betting to also tilt too heavily towards the luck side of things.

The problem for DFS is that their best argument in favor of it being skill versus luck is that a small number of players win a huge percentage of the games. That demonstrates that it's not just luck. Unfortunately, if they have to make that their argument, they're probably going to lose a bunch of business by admitting that

That argument worked out great for online poker.

the fallacy of that argument is that it's not skill per se that is causing that. It is having access to another set of tools that slants the table significantly in your favor. Which I don't have an issue with as long as the DFS sites would disclose this information. Don't show me random Joe Shmo who won $50. Show me Apu Loharajitmanbaura who is raking in millions off of the fish in your ad.

 

[chet]

I thought Fan Duel and Draft Kings issued a co-statement saying that they determined there was no funny business. This should clear things up.

Exactly--they had plenty of time to do a thorough investigation.

 

[eoMMan]

I've yet to see one reasonable explanation how the employee cleaned up in baseball several times. You don't do that with ownership percentages. You do that changing lineups.

Here is a pretty good rundown of the scandal, but I'll pull out the relevant part: http://www.legalsportsreport.com/4548/draftkings-data-leak-faq/

How does access to ownership data provide an edge?

Ownership percentage is one piece of the puzzle that can be useful in skillfully setting DFS lineups, especially in guaranteed prize pool contests. Top players try to predict ownership percentages, and data about past ownership percentages can be dissected for information.

Because of the massive number of entries in the biggest contests at DraftKings and FanDuel hundreds of thousands its usually difficult to win a contest with a lot of players that are commonly owned. Rostering some players with low ownership percentages and a high upside is astrategy that many players employ.

Ed Miller, an independent games consultant who has written frequently about DFS, says that itsdifficult to overstate the value of lineup data.

If you knew beforehand which players would be most used, in the major sports you can build +EV (positive expected value) cash game and GPP lineups based almost solely on that knowledge, Miller told Legal Sports Report

Is that the same poker author/player Ed Miller?

If I so, I guess everyone really is going from poker to DFS.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

I've yet to see one reasonable explanation how the employee cleaned up in baseball several times. You don't do that with ownership percentages. You do that changing lineups.

Here is a pretty good rundown of the scandal, but I'll pull out the relevant part: http://www.legalsportsreport.com/4548/draftkings-data-leak-faq/

How does access to ownership data provide an edge?

Ownership percentage is one piece of the puzzle that can be useful in skillfully setting DFS lineups, especially in guaranteed prize pool contests. Top players try to predict ownership percentages, and data about past ownership percentages can be dissected for information.

Because of the massive number of entries in the biggest contests at DraftKings and FanDuel hundreds of thousands its usually difficult to win a contest with a lot of players that are commonly owned. Rostering some players with low ownership percentages and a high upside is astrategy that many players employ.

Ed Miller, an independent games consultant who has written frequently about DFS, says that itsdifficult to overstate the value of lineup data.

If you knew beforehand which players would be most used, in the major sports you can build +EV (positive expected value) cash game and GPP lineups based almost solely on that knowledge, Miller told Legal Sports Report

Is that the same poker author/player Ed Miller?

If I so, I guess everyone really is going from poker to DFS.

Yes and yes.

 

[Capella]

You have to think there will be huge outflows this week. Whether they have the funds to cover them will be a very interesting question.

This is what I'm hoping for.

 

[Ignoramus]

ESPN removes daily fantasy sponsored content from their shows, but keeps the ads

Hey, you have to have principles, pal.

 

[The Ref]

The good thing is they will really have to step up advertising to fill the gap.

 

[bagger]

The good thing is they will really have to step up advertising to fill the gap.

DFS Advertising Phase 2: Strap football watchers into their chairs and force their eyelids open to watch a continual loop of commercials a la Clockwork Orange.

 

[comfortably numb]

This is why we can't have nice things

 

[Sammy3469]

So the NY AG is looking into this now. Sent a request for info to both sites and expects a response by the 15th.

 

[Mr. Pickles]

The good thing is they will really have to step up advertising to fill the gap.

DFS Advertising Phase 2: Strap football watchers into their chairs and force their eyelids open to watch a continual loop of commercials a la Clockwork Orange.

I already feel like Alex DeLarge watching these ads.

 

[chauncey]

I would be interested to see how this guy actually cheated.

They said the pros submit hundreds of lineups, and involves scripts for finding head to heads, etc. It sounds like there is way more involved than knowing 3-4 lock high scoring players.

And what contest did he win the 350k in? Was it a single tournament? I wonder how many lineups he had? Or was it a bunch of other types of games?

You would have to think that there are presently people scraping these contest pages to analyze everything. Whether it's to try and create a script to get an edge, or identify cheating, etc.

Fanduel $5M NFL Sunday Million ($1 Million to first) I think you have to be logged into Fanduel to see.

He finished 2nd/229,885 and won $350k. $25 entry fee, I can't see how many entries he had in this tournament but I am sure it was multiple.

His lineup was Dalton (2.3%), Peterson, Freeman, Cobb, Green, Hurns (2%), Olsen, Gostkowski, Seahawks DST. No real long shots on there for someone who prepped for the week, he just hit on all of them.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

So rotogrinders is the main advice/information site for DFS. They have a message board that has an extensive thread on this, here: https://rotogrinders.com/threads/draftkings-ownership-leak-850584?page=2

So the owner of rotogrinders immediately leaps to the defense of Ethan Haskell, the employee who tweeted out the ownership percentages. Ethan also used to work for rotogrinders. And apparently any use of "DK" "Draftkings" "FD" or "Fanduel" in a post automatically creates a hyperlink to signup bonuses for those respective sites.

 

[bakes]

Listened to the 5pm DFS show on SiriusXMFantasySports today. The hosts were tripping over themselves saying that there cannot possibly be any shenanigans going on. One caller suggested that the sites post % owned and they fumbled around about how it would be either difficult or not matter. Meaning that they don't want $5 Freddie to get that info.

 

[Zow]

Article on assani on CNBC regarding his killing the DFS. Love the "of course it's gambling" comment.

 

[elbowrm]

Here's the Assani article- nothing about boiling oat running sadly -

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/06/former-pro-poker-player-makes-a-living-on-fantasy-sports.html

 

[MattFancy]

Listened to the 5pm DFS show on SiriusXMFantasySports today. The hosts were tripping over themselves saying that there cannot possibly be any shenanigans going on. One caller suggested that the sites post % owned and they fumbled around about how it would be either difficult or not matter. Meaning that they don't want $5 Freddie to get that info.

I'm done with that channel after yesterday. I've never seen someone shill for a product harder than they were yesterday for DFS. No one seemed concerned at all. The one host, Jeff Mans I think, was saying there's no way this is considered insider trading. He said insider trading in fantasy would be like telling someone, "Andrew Luck has gonorrhea of the shoulder and is out, but don't tell anyone" (yes that was the exact example he used). They were slurping up to FanDuel so bad yesterday.

 

[Peyton Marino]

So rotogrinders is the main advice/information site for DFS. They have a message board that has an extensive thread on this, here: https://rotogrinders.com/threads/draftkings-ownership-leak-850584?page=2

So the owner of rotogrinders immediately leaps to the defense of Ethan Haskell, the employee who tweeted out the ownership percentages. Ethan also used to work for rotogrinders. And apparently any use of "DK" "Draftkings" "FD" or "Fanduel" in a post automatically creates a hyperlink to signup bonuses for those respective sites.

They are 100% shills for the industry. Dan Back does a daily podcast and he did one on the "is it gambling?" issue and one on the cheating scandal. They both pretty much amount to "everything's fine don't worry!". The one on gambling is worth a listen. Not sure I've ever heard such incoherent babbling from what I consider to be an intelligent guy. He just can't get past his bias and look at this stuff impartially.

 

[otello]

Let me know when the first class action is filed.

 

[Tom Servo]

Here's the Assani article- nothing about boiling oat running sadly -

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/06/former-pro-poker-player-makes-a-living-on-fantasy-sports.html

Is that the same AF that used to post here?

 

[chet]

Here's the Assani article- nothing about boiling oat running sadly -

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/06/former-pro-poker-player-makes-a-living-on-fantasy-sports.html

Is that the same AF that used to post here?

Yes.

 

[Sand]

The Draft Kings CEO just did an interview on Fox Business with Maria Bartiromo . Basically said the employee did nothing wrong. I'm sure a link will pop up here.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

The Draft Kings CEO just did an interview on Fox Business with Maria Bartiromo . Basically said the employee did nothing wrong. I'm sure a link will pop up here.

I hope the attorney general puts all of them in jail.

 

[Buddy Ball 2K3]

Listened to the 5pm DFS show on SiriusXMFantasySports today. The hosts were tripping over themselves saying that there cannot possibly be any shenanigans going on. One caller suggested that the sites post % owned and they fumbled around about how it would be either difficult or not matter. Meaning that they don't want $5 Freddie to get that info.

That channel, this website etc all follow where the money is trending. Can't wait to get my DFS Email from FBG's.

 

[eoMMan]

Listened to the 5pm DFS show on SiriusXMFantasySports today. The hosts were tripping over themselves saying that there cannot possibly be any shenanigans going on. One caller suggested that the sites post % owned and they fumbled around about how it would be either difficult or not matter. Meaning that they don't want $5 Freddie to get that info.

I'm done with that channel after yesterday. I've never seen someone shill for a product harder than they were yesterday for DFS. No one seemed concerned at all. The one host, Jeff Mans I think, was saying there's no way this is considered insider trading. He said insider trading in fantasy would be like telling someone, "Andrew Luck has gonorrhea of the shoulder and is out, but don't tell anyone" (yes that was the exact example he used). They were slurping up to FanDuel so bad yesterday.

To be fair, the show at 5pm is the FanDuel sponsored show. Makes sense they would defend DFS.

I disagree with Jeff Mans. He admits that having ownership percentages gives an edge but in his mind, this isn't cheating. Players aren't being cheated. I disagree. It should be an even playing field.

 

[Poke_4_Life]

Here's the Assani article- nothing about boiling oat running sadly -

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/06/former-pro-poker-player-makes-a-living-on-fantasy-sports.html

Is that the same AF that used to post here?

Yes.

Good on him. 800k in 7 months? Nice...

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I always kind of wondered what became of poker guys like Ed Miller and Assani after the games dried up. Glad to see Assani's doing well.

 

[Capella]

So rotogrinders is the main advice/information site for DFS. They have a message board that has an extensive thread on this, here: https://rotogrinders.com/threads/draftkings-ownership-leak-850584?page=2

So the owner of rotogrinders immediately leaps to the defense of Ethan Haskell, the employee who tweeted out the ownership percentages. Ethan also used to work for rotogrinders. And apparently any use of "DK" "Draftkings" "FD" or "Fanduel" in a post automatically creates a hyperlink to signup bonuses for those respective sites.

 

[Doug B]

Super naïve question here:

How come (a) running scripts to mine data from these sites, and (b) individuals having dozens/hundreds/thousands of entries were considered above-board play?

I know how online poker was, so I'm sure edge-seeking just comes naturally for a lot of gamblers. But DFS -- even in its "clean" form -- already seems crooked as heck. Dunno ... not a gambler, so I don't have those sensibilities.

 

[cstu]

Super naïve question here:

How come (a) running scripts to mine data from these sites, and (b) individuals having dozens/hundreds/thousands of entries were considered above-board play?

I know how online poker was, so I'm sure edge-seeking just comes naturally for a lot of gamblers. But DFS -- even in its "clean" form -- already seems crooked as heck. Dunno ... not a gambler, so I don't have those sensibilities.

Most gamblers only care about winning. HTH.

 

[Doug B]

Most gamblers only care about winning. HTH.

Understood -- but one minnows learned of the scripting and the guys with 10,000 entries ... what kept them around?

At least Powerball asks only for a nominal sum for an astronomical chance at stupid money ... is that the same ethic at play with DFS? Minnows don't really care if they have a decent shot?

 

[bagger]

Most gamblers only care about winning. HTH.

Understood -- but one minnows learned of the scripting and the guys with 10,000 entries ... what kept them around?

At least Powerball asks only for a nominal sum for an astronomical chance at stupid money ... is that the same ethic at play with DFS? Minnows don't really care if they have a decent shot?

just read the threads in the shark pool.They:

1. Don't believe algorithms help and that they are smarter than computers

2. Don't care because they are having fun

3. Think their absurdly small sample size of success is replicable over the long term against super computers.

 

[eoMMan]

Most gamblers only care about winning. HTH.

Understood -- but one minnows learned of the scripting and the guys with 10,000 entries ... what kept them around?

At least Powerball asks only for a nominal sum for an astronomical chance at stupid money ... is that the same ethic at play with DFS? Minnows don't really care if they have a decent shot?

just read the threads in the shark pool.They:

1. Don't believe algorithms help and that they are smarter than computers

2. Don't care because they are having fun

3. Think their absurdly small sample size of success is replicable over the long term against super computers.

Super computers are creating lineups?

 

[bagger]

Most gamblers only care about winning. HTH.

Understood -- but one minnows learned of the scripting and the guys with 10,000 entries ... what kept them around?

At least Powerball asks only for a nominal sum for an astronomical chance at stupid money ... is that the same ethic at play with DFS? Minnows don't really care if they have a decent shot?

just read the threads in the shark pool.They:

1. Don't believe algorithms help and that they are smarter than computers

2. Don't care because they are having fun

3. Think their absurdly small sample size of success is replicable over the long term against super computers.

Super computers are creating lineups?

love the intentionally obtuse shtick.

 

[Sammy3469]

Most gamblers only care about winning. HTH.

Understood -- but one minnows learned of the scripting and the guys with 10,000 entries ... what kept them around?

At least Powerball asks only for a nominal sum for an astronomical chance at stupid money ... is that the same ethic at play with DFS? Minnows don't really care if they have a decent shot?

just read the threads in the shark pool.They:

1. Don't believe algorithms help and that they are smarter than computers

2. Don't care because they are having fun

3. Think their absurdly small sample size of success is replicable over the long term against super computers.

Super computers are creating lineups?

Maybe not super computers, but the top guys all use complex projection systems and also algorithms to try to figure out underplayed players. They then enter hundreds/thousands of contests a day using scripts that have a direct interface with the DFS site.

Is it possible that nothing nefarious is occurring...sure, but as online poker showed, if there is money at stake not all the players and/or sites may be on the up and up.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Most gamblers only care about winning. HTH.

Understood -- but one minnows learned of the scripting and the guys with 10,000 entries ... what kept them around?

At least Powerball asks only for a nominal sum for an astronomical chance at stupid money ... is that the same ethic at play with DFS? Minnows don't really care if they have a decent shot?

I don't think they realize how little of a chance they have. And DK/FD's advertising is specifically aimed at quelling this (very real) fears: "I was just a guy who deposited $50, now I'm up 2 million!" "The only difference is that I played and other people didn't," etc. etc.

Adrian, Rocky IV. Top of the stairs.

 

[eoMMan]

Most gamblers only care about winning. HTH.

Understood -- but one minnows learned of the scripting and the guys with 10,000 entries ... what kept them around?

At least Powerball asks only for a nominal sum for an astronomical chance at stupid money ... is that the same ethic at play with DFS? Minnows don't really care if they have a decent shot?

just read the threads in the shark pool.They:

1. Don't believe algorithms help and that they are smarter than computers

2. Don't care because they are having fun

3. Think their absurdly small sample size of success is replicable over the long term against super computers.

Super computers are creating lineups?

Maybe not super computers, but the top guys all use complex projection systems and also algorithms to try to figure out underplayed players. They then enter hundreds/thousands of contests a day using scripts that have a direct interface with the DFS site.

Is it possible that nothing nefarious is occurring...sure, but as online poker showed, if there is money at stake not all the players and/or sites may be on the up and up.

Please elaborate on "complex projection systems".

Yes, I'm fully aware of scripts and entering tons of contests. That doesn't guarantee a ton of great lineups.

 

[Tiger Fan]

I would be interested to see how this guy actually cheated.

They said the pros submit hundreds of lineups, and involves scripts for finding head to heads, etc. It sounds like there is way more involved than knowing 3-4 lock high scoring players.

And what contest did he win the 350k in? Was it a single tournament? I wonder how many lineups he had? Or was it a bunch of other types of games?

You would have to think that there are presently people scraping these contest pages to analyze everything. Whether it's to try and create a script to get an edge, or identify cheating, etc.

Fanduel $5M NFL Sunday Million ($1 Million to first) I think you have to be logged into Fanduel to see.

He finished 2nd/229,885 and won $350k. $25 entry fee, I can't see how many entries he had in this tournament but I am sure it was multiple.

His lineup was Dalton (2.3%), Peterson, Freeman, Cobb, Green, Hurns (2%), Olsen, Gostkowski, Seahawks DST. No real long shots on there for someone who prepped for the week, he just hit on all of them.

Wasn't Gostkowski on a bye?

 

[nirad3]

I would be interested to see how this guy actually cheated.

They said the pros submit hundreds of lineups, and involves scripts for finding head to heads, etc. It sounds like there is way more involved than knowing 3-4 lock high scoring players.

And what contest did he win the 350k in? Was it a single tournament? I wonder how many lineups he had? Or was it a bunch of other types of games?

You would have to think that there are presently people scraping these contest pages to analyze everything. Whether it's to try and create a script to get an edge, or identify cheating, etc.

Fanduel $5M NFL Sunday Million ($1 Million to first) I think you have to be logged into Fanduel to see.

He finished 2nd/229,885 and won $350k. $25 entry fee, I can't see how many entries he had in this tournament but I am sure it was multiple.

His lineup was Dalton (2.3%), Peterson, Freeman, Cobb, Green, Hurns (2%), Olsen, Gostkowski, Seahawks DST. No real long shots on there for someone who prepped for the week, he just hit on all of them.

Wasn't Gostkowski on a bye?

This was from 2 weeks ago.

 

[Quez]

Can someone briefly explain to me Asani Fishers FFA experience. I forgot the story on him.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Can someone briefly explain to me Asani Fishers FFA experience. I forgot the story on him.

He was a very successful high-stakes poker guy back when that was the thing that everybody was doing. He also had some of the strangest shtick I've ever seen.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Can someone briefly explain to me Asani Fishers FFA experience. I forgot the story on him.

Quite possibly one of the greatest onslaught minds in history.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Can someone briefly explain to me Asani Fishers FFA experience. I forgot the story on him.

he loved the Washington wizards

 

[Tom Servo]

Most gamblers only care about winning. HTH.

Understood -- but one minnows learned of the scripting and the guys with 10,000 entries ... what kept them around?

At least Powerball asks only for a nominal sum for an astronomical chance at stupid money ... is that the same ethic at play with DFS? Minnows don't really care if they have a decent shot?

just read the threads in the shark pool.They:

1. Don't believe algorithms help and that they are smarter than computers

2. Don't care because they are having fun

3. Think their absurdly small sample size of success is replicable over the long term against super computers.

Super computers are creating lineups?

Maybe not super computers, but the top guys all use complex projection systems and also algorithms to try to figure out underplayed players. They then enter hundreds/thousands of contests a day using scripts that have a direct interface with the DFS site.

Is it possible that nothing nefarious is occurring...sure, but as online poker showed, if there is money at stake not all the players and/or sites may be on the up and up.

Please elaborate on "complex projection systems".

Yes, I'm fully aware of scripts and entering tons of contests. That doesn't guarantee a ton of great lineups.

You can't be this dense.

A DFS player with inside information can see not only who the most picked players are, but also the ones that are undervalued with the opportunity to give +EV relative to their purchase price. If you have the same lineup as 10,000 other jagoffs, you're not winning anything. If you zag where everyone else is zigging, then your entry stands out as having the opportunity to make BOATLOADS.

As ever, IT = INFO, and there's no expiration date for it.

 

[Ned]

at super computers

 

[eoMMan]

Most gamblers only care about winning. HTH.

Understood -- but one minnows learned of the scripting and the guys with 10,000 entries ... what kept them around?

At least Powerball asks only for a nominal sum for an astronomical chance at stupid money ... is that the same ethic at play with DFS? Minnows don't really care if they have a decent shot?

just read the threads in the shark pool.They:

1. Don't believe algorithms help and that they are smarter than computers

2. Don't care because they are having fun

3. Think their absurdly small sample size of success is replicable over the long term against super computers.

Super computers are creating lineups?

Maybe not super computers, but the top guys all use complex projection systems and also algorithms to try to figure out underplayed players. They then enter hundreds/thousands of contests a day using scripts that have a direct interface with the DFS site.

Is it possible that nothing nefarious is occurring...sure, but as online poker showed, if there is money at stake not all the players and/or sites may be on the up and up.

Please elaborate on "complex projection systems".Yes, I'm fully aware of scripts and entering tons of contests. That doesn't guarantee a ton of great lineups.

You can't be this dense.A DFS player with inside information can see not only who the most picked players are, but also the ones that are undervalued with the opportunity to give +EV relative to their purchase price. If you have the same lineup as 10,000 other jagoffs, you're not winning anything. If you zag where everyone else is zigging, then your entry stands out as having the opportunity to make BOATLOADS.

As ever, IT = INFO, and there's no expiration date for it.

Settle down, Beavis.

I'm asking about these "complex projections" that the professionals use.....not the ones with inside information.....of course they will have an advantage.

 

[Doug B]

Super computers are creating lineups?

Maybe not super computers, but the top guys all use complex projection systems and also algorithms to try to figure out underplayed players. They then enter hundreds/thousands of contests a day using scripts that have a direct interface with the DFS site.

Is it possible that nothing nefarious is occurring...sure, but as online poker showed, if there is money at stake not all the players and/or sites may be on the up and up.

See ... to me, all of the items in red are textbook "nefarious" ... and I am curious as to why it's considered above-board by the minnows.

But, I don't swim in these oceans ... so there's likely some kind of internal cultural aspect to it all that I am not appreciating here. I understand that the mileage varies for others.

 

[joffer]

Can someone briefly explain to me Asani Fishers FFA experience. I forgot the story on him.

he loved the Washington wizards

and Artose Pinner

 

[Tom Servo]

Most gamblers only care about winning. HTH.

Understood -- but one minnows learned of the scripting and the guys with 10,000 entries ... what kept them around?

At least Powerball asks only for a nominal sum for an astronomical chance at stupid money ... is that the same ethic at play with DFS? Minnows don't really care if they have a decent shot?

just read the threads in the shark pool.They:

1. Don't believe algorithms help and that they are smarter than computers

2. Don't care because they are having fun

3. Think their absurdly small sample size of success is replicable over the long term against super computers.

Super computers are creating lineups?

Maybe not super computers, but the top guys all use complex projection systems and also algorithms to try to figure out underplayed players. They then enter hundreds/thousands of contests a day using scripts that have a direct interface with the DFS site.

Is it possible that nothing nefarious is occurring...sure, but as online poker showed, if there is money at stake not all the players and/or sites may be on the up and up.

Please elaborate on "complex projection systems".Yes, I'm fully aware of scripts and entering tons of contests. That doesn't guarantee a ton of great lineups.

You can't be this dense.A DFS player with inside information can see not only who the most picked players are, but also the ones that are undervalued with the opportunity to give +EV relative to their purchase price. If you have the same lineup as 10,000 other jagoffs, you're not winning anything. If you zag where everyone else is zigging, then your entry stands out as having the opportunity to make BOATLOADS.

As ever, IT = INFO, and there's no expiration date for it.

Settle down, Beavis.

I'm asking about these "complex projections" that the professionals use.....not the ones with inside information.....of course they will have an advantage.

No problem, Butthead.

I would imagine there's some overlap of "professionals" and "inside traders". How much? Eh, I wouldn't hazard a guess. But I think it goes on.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Here's the Assani article- nothing about boiling oat running sadly -

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/06/former-pro-poker-player-makes-a-living-on-fantasy-sports.html

Is that the same AF that used to post here?

He still posts here. Mostly in the DFS forum.