Do you believe in the American Dream? (1 Viewer)

[Politician Spock]

Kinda hard to given the dominance of corporate America and our ridiculously dysfunctional government. Remove those obstacles and sky's the limit.

Isn't corporate America a part of the dream, though? As in, you too can become a vice-president in a large corporation if you work hard enough, and you'll become rich if you do.

We've swapped a lot of successful mom & pop businesses for a handful of successful vice president positions. The dream is still there, but it's a fraction of what it once was. It's getting nearly impossible to start and run a non-corporate business anymore. They're a dying breed.

I think the statistic I last heard was 52% of Americans are employed by small businesses. The dream is still alive it's the culture that's changed.

Mom & pop businesses are a subset of what the government calls "small businesses". in 2006 there were over 18,000 "small businesses" with over 500 employees that accounted for half of all the employees employed by all "small businesses". Pretty much all of them are setup as corporations, with vice presidents too.

Well... I own a small business that works with other small businesses and can testify that it's not nearly impossible to run a non corporate business. It takes patience and hard work and most people aren't willing to do what it takes. For those who are the dream is atill alive.

Perhaps I should be clearer....I'm not saying it's impossible. However, the image/dream our parents/grandparents had is very different than what it looks like today. There aren't nearly as many avenues to achievement today that were a couple generations ago (thanks to gov't and big business). I can go open a small mom/pop hardware store, but I'll never be rich. I'll fight Walmart and Costco my entire life. That wasn't an obstacle before. I see a lot of potential in trades though. Like cabinet making, hand crafted home improvements etc. People, now more than ever, are renovating and want to keep "character" in their 100 year old houses. A big box store can't help them with that. That's just one example.

Ok, so you can't be rich opening a mom/pop hardware store. Big deal. Times change. There are plenty of other avenues open today that weren't open back when having a mom and pop hardware store was a great way to make a living. (if it ever was)

I'm going on the premise of Tim's definition. You don't like it, take it up with him Reality is, there are fewer and fewer Jobs/Gates/(insert any person starting a business from scratch and becoming incredibly wealthy on their own dime) type of stories out there where someone created something from nothing. Now it's very much create something in hopes that some larger company comes in, buys it and carries it to fruition. If you'll read what I actually said, you'll see that I never said it CAN'T be done or that it DOESN'T exist. It does, just not in as many avenues as 50 - 100 years ago. I didn't really think this was a controversial thing to say. Apparently, I'm wrong.

I agree with everything you're saying. But feel the need to clarify something.

"prosperity and success" /= "incredibly wealthy"

For many of our parents and grandparents, opening their own mom & pop business and making a good living from it was the American dream. It was "prosperity and success" for them, even though they didn't become "incredibly wealthy".

Today it is a lot harder to open and run a mom & pop business and make a good living from it, for the reasons you point out. We aren't just losing avenues to become "incredibly wealthy" due to corporatism. We are losing the opportunity for an individual to just achieve "prosperity and success" from the simple act of opening and running a mom & pop business.

 

[The_Man]

A very interesting study that addresses this topic directly came out of Johns Hopkins this week.

Some of the findings:

In a groundbreaking study, Johns Hopkins University researchers followed nearly 800 Baltimore schoolchildren for a quarter of a century, and discovered that their fates were substantially determined by the family they were born into.

"A family's resources and the doors they open cast a long shadow over children's life trajectories," Johns Hopkins sociologist Karl Alexander says in a forthcoming book, The Long Shadow: Family Background, Disadvantaged Urban Youth, and the Transition to Adulthood. "This view is at odds with the popular ethos that we are makers of our own fortune." ...

At nearly 30 years old, almost half the sample found themselves at the same socio-economic status as their parents. The poor stayed poor; those better off remained better off.

Only 33 children moved from birth families in the low-income bracket to the high-income bracket as young adults; if family had no bearing on children's mobility prospects, almost 70 would be expected. And of those who started out well off, only 19 dropped to the low-income bracket, a fourth of the number expected.

Among the most striking findings:

• Almost none of the children from low-income families made it through college. Of the children from low-income families, only 4 percent had a college degree at age 28, compared to 45 percent of the children from higher-income backgrounds. "That's a shocking tenfold difference across social lines," Alexander said.
  
• Among those who did not attend college, white men from low-income backgrounds found the best-paying jobs. Although they had the lowest rate of college attendance and completion, white men from low-income backgrounds found high-paying jobs in what remained of Baltimore's industrial economy. At age 28, 45 percent of them were working in construction trades and industrial crafts, compared with 15 percent of black men from similar backgrounds and virtually no women.
  
• Better-off white men were most likely to abuse drugs. Better-off white men had the highest self-reported rates of drug use, binge drinking, and chronic smoking, followed in each instance by white men of disadvantaged families.
  

 

[The Commish]

Kinda hard to given the dominance of corporate America and our ridiculously dysfunctional government. Remove those obstacles and sky's the limit.

Isn't corporate America a part of the dream, though? As in, you too can become a vice-president in a large corporation if you work hard enough, and you'll become rich if you do.

We've swapped a lot of successful mom & pop businesses for a handful of successful vice president positions. The dream is still there, but it's a fraction of what it once was. It's getting nearly impossible to start and run a non-corporate business anymore. They're a dying breed.

I think the statistic I last heard was 52% of Americans are employed by small businesses. The dream is still alive it's the culture that's changed.

Mom & pop businesses are a subset of what the government calls "small businesses". in 2006 there were over 18,000 "small businesses" with over 500 employees that accounted for half of all the employees employed by all "small businesses". Pretty much all of them are setup as corporations, with vice presidents too.

Well... I own a small business that works with other small businesses and can testify that it's not nearly impossible to run a non corporate business. It takes patience and hard work and most people aren't willing to do what it takes. For those who are the dream is atill alive.

Perhaps I should be clearer....I'm not saying it's impossible. However, the image/dream our parents/grandparents had is very different than what it looks like today. There aren't nearly as many avenues to achievement today that were a couple generations ago (thanks to gov't and big business). I can go open a small mom/pop hardware store, but I'll never be rich. I'll fight Walmart and Costco my entire life. That wasn't an obstacle before. I see a lot of potential in trades though. Like cabinet making, hand crafted home improvements etc. People, now more than ever, are renovating and want to keep "character" in their 100 year old houses. A big box store can't help them with that. That's just one example.

Ok, so you can't be rich opening a mom/pop hardware store. Big deal. Times change. There are plenty of other avenues open today that weren't open back when having a mom and pop hardware store was a great way to make a living. (if it ever was)

I'm going on the premise of Tim's definition. You don't like it, take it up with him Reality is, there are fewer and fewer Jobs/Gates/(insert any person starting a business from scratch and becoming incredibly wealthy on their own dime) type of stories out there where someone created something from nothing. Now it's very much create something in hopes that some larger company comes in, buys it and carries it to fruition. If you'll read what I actually said, you'll see that I never said it CAN'T be done or that it DOESN'T exist. It does, just not in as many avenues as 50 - 100 years ago. I didn't really think this was a controversial thing to say. Apparently, I'm wrong.

I don't think it is controversial, I just don't agree.

I don't think it was easier to get rich 50-100 years ago, in fact I think it was far more difficult. Look at Evan Spiegel, CEO of snapchat. He was a jerky college kid 3 years ago when I was spending far too much time focusing on my upcoming fantasy draft. Now he's worth over 200 million. With the internet, I think there are far MORE opportunities for wealth, and it's leveled the playing field quite a bit.

I see this if you're using the same bar for "rich" then and now. IMO, that bar has moved significantly. To your example though....how many apps have been created and fell flat on their face for every successful snapchat? Again, I didn't say "the dream" doesn't exist and can't be achieved. I said it's been made more difficult to achieve.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I see this if you're using the same bar for "rich" then and now. IMO, that bar has moved significantly. To your example though....how many apps have been created and fell flat on their face for every successful snapchat? Again, I didn't say "the dream" doesn't exist and can't be achieved. I said it's been made more difficult to achieve.

There were over 1,800 automobile manufacturers in the United States from 1896 to 1930.

 

[The Commish]

Kinda hard to given the dominance of corporate America and our ridiculously dysfunctional government. Remove those obstacles and sky's the limit.

Isn't corporate America a part of the dream, though? As in, you too can become a vice-president in a large corporation if you work hard enough, and you'll become rich if you do.

We've swapped a lot of successful mom & pop businesses for a handful of successful vice president positions. The dream is still there, but it's a fraction of what it once was. It's getting nearly impossible to start and run a non-corporate business anymore. They're a dying breed.

I think the statistic I last heard was 52% of Americans are employed by small businesses. The dream is still alive it's the culture that's changed.

Mom & pop businesses are a subset of what the government calls "small businesses". in 2006 there were over 18,000 "small businesses" with over 500 employees that accounted for half of all the employees employed by all "small businesses". Pretty much all of them are setup as corporations, with vice presidents too.

Well... I own a small business that works with other small businesses and can testify that it's not nearly impossible to run a non corporate business. It takes patience and hard work and most people aren't willing to do what it takes. For those who are the dream is atill alive.

Perhaps I should be clearer....I'm not saying it's impossible. However, the image/dream our parents/grandparents had is very different than what it looks like today. There aren't nearly as many avenues to achievement today that were a couple generations ago (thanks to gov't and big business). I can go open a small mom/pop hardware store, but I'll never be rich. I'll fight Walmart and Costco my entire life. That wasn't an obstacle before. I see a lot of potential in trades though. Like cabinet making, hand crafted home improvements etc. People, now more than ever, are renovating and want to keep "character" in their 100 year old houses. A big box store can't help them with that. That's just one example.

Ok, so you can't be rich opening a mom/pop hardware store. Big deal. Times change. There are plenty of other avenues open today that weren't open back when having a mom and pop hardware store was a great way to make a living. (if it ever was)

I'm going on the premise of Tim's definition. You don't like it, take it up with him Reality is, there are fewer and fewer Jobs/Gates/(insert any person starting a business from scratch and becoming incredibly wealthy on their own dime) type of stories out there where someone created something from nothing. Now it's very much create something in hopes that some larger company comes in, buys it and carries it to fruition. If you'll read what I actually said, you'll see that I never said it CAN'T be done or that it DOESN'T exist. It does, just not in as many avenues as 50 - 100 years ago. I didn't really think this was a controversial thing to say. Apparently, I'm wrong.

I agree with everything you're saying. But feel the need to clarify something.

"prosperity and success" /= "incredibly wealthy"

For many of our parents and grandparents, opening their own mom & pop business and making a good living from it was the American dream. It was "prosperity and success" for them, even though they didn't become "incredibly wealthy".

Today it is a lot harder to open and run a mom & pop business and make a good living from it, for the reasons you point out. We aren't just losing avenues to become "incredibly wealthy" due to corporatism. We are losing the opportunity for an individual to just achieve "prosperity and success" from the simple act of opening and running a mom & pop business.

Good point. Then it was enough to work hard and make good decisions. Now, we have all these additional hoops we make each other jump through. College education, marketing (to get the attention of your product/trade), the slant of our gov't towards large businesses...right on down the line. So I'll say "the dream" is still out there, it just looks way different than it did before and I don't believe the way it looked before is achievable in any way that one can live a comfortable life today. If that makes sense.

 

[Politician Spock]

Isn't corporate America a part of the dream, though? As in, you too can become a vice-president in a large corporation if you work hard enough, and you'll become rich if you do.

We've swapped a lot of successful mom & pop businesses for a handful of successful vice president positions. The dream is still there, but it's a fraction of what it once was. It's getting nearly impossible to start and run a non-corporate business anymore. They're a dying breed.

I think the statistic I last heard was 52% of Americans are employed by small businesses. The dream is still alive it's the culture that's changed.

Mom & pop businesses are a subset of what the government calls "small businesses". in 2006 there were over 18,000 "small businesses" with over 500 employees that accounted for half of all the employees employed by all "small businesses". Pretty much all of them are setup as corporations, with vice presidents too.

Well... I own a small business that works with other small businesses and can testify that it's not nearly impossible to run a non corporate business. It takes patience and hard work and most people aren't willing to do what it takes. For those who are the dream is atill alive.

Perhaps I should be clearer....I'm not saying it's impossible. However, the image/dream our parents/grandparents had is very different than what it looks like today. There aren't nearly as many avenues to achievement today that were a couple generations ago (thanks to gov't and big business). I can go open a small mom/pop hardware store, but I'll never be rich. I'll fight Walmart and Costco my entire life. That wasn't an obstacle before. I see a lot of potential in trades though. Like cabinet making, hand crafted home improvements etc. People, now more than ever, are renovating and want to keep "character" in their 100 year old houses. A big box store can't help them with that. That's just one example.

Ok, so you can't be rich opening a mom/pop hardware store. Big deal. Times change. There are plenty of other avenues open today that weren't open back when having a mom and pop hardware store was a great way to make a living. (if it ever was)

I'm going on the premise of Tim's definition. You don't like it, take it up with him Reality is, there are fewer and fewer Jobs/Gates/(insert any person starting a business from scratch and becoming incredibly wealthy on their own dime) type of stories out there where someone created something from nothing. Now it's very much create something in hopes that some larger company comes in, buys it and carries it to fruition. If you'll read what I actually said, you'll see that I never said it CAN'T be done or that it DOESN'T exist. It does, just not in as many avenues as 50 - 100 years ago. I didn't really think this was a controversial thing to say. Apparently, I'm wrong.

I agree with everything you're saying. But feel the need to clarify something.

"prosperity and success" /= "incredibly wealthy"

For many of our parents and grandparents, opening their own mom & pop business and making a good living from it was the American dream. It was "prosperity and success" for them, even though they didn't become "incredibly wealthy".

Today it is a lot harder to open and run a mom & pop business and make a good living from it, for the reasons you point out. We aren't just losing avenues to become "incredibly wealthy" due to corporatism. We are losing the opportunity for an individual to just achieve "prosperity and success" from the simple act of opening and running a mom & pop business.

Good point. Then it was enough to work hard and make good decisions. Now, we have all these additional hoops we make each other jump through. College education, marketing (to get the attention of your product/trade), the slant of our gov't towards large businesses...right on down the line. So I'll say "the dream" is still out there, it just looks way different than it did before and I don't believe the way it looked before is achievable in any way that one can live a comfortable life today. If that makes sense.

It makes sense to me. I think however a lot of people in this thread are in denial.

What we have today is like sitting down to begin playing Monopoly in a game that's already been going on for hours. Your chances of success are a lot smaller than the people who began playing hours ago.

 

[The Commish]

I see this if you're using the same bar for "rich" then and now. IMO, that bar has moved significantly. To your example though....how many apps have been created and fell flat on their face for every successful snapchat? Again, I didn't say "the dream" doesn't exist and can't be achieved. I said it's been made more difficult to achieve.

There were over 1,800 automobile manufacturers in the United States from 1896 to 1930.

Not sure where this is going, but compare that to the millions of failed apps out there in the last 5 years and you begin to see the point. I think Apple adds 20,000 apps a month and their current catalog consists of 1,000,000ish last I looked in December. Very high failure rate.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I see this if you're using the same bar for "rich" then and now. IMO, that bar has moved significantly. To your example though....how many apps have been created and fell flat on their face for every successful snapchat? Again, I didn't say "the dream" doesn't exist and can't be achieved. I said it's been made more difficult to achieve.

There were over 1,800 automobile manufacturers in the United States from 1896 to 1930.

Not sure where this is going, but compare that to the millions of failed apps out there in the last 5 years and you begin to see the point. I think Apple adds 20,000 apps a month and their current catalog consists of 1,000,000ish last I looked in December. Very high failure rate.

A lot easier to develop an app than a car company though.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I think a better definition of the American Dream is simply the ability to chart your own course.

You are at an advantage/disadvantage dependent upon what circumstances you're born into, of course. That's obvious. But it doesn't mean you have to/are entitled to staying there.

 

[Politician Spock]

I think a better definition of the American Dream is simply the ability to chart your own course.

You are at an advantage/disadvantage dependent upon what circumstances you're born into, of course. That's obvious. But it doesn't mean you have to/are entitled to staying there.

Tim provided the definition in the OP. If you're having to move the goal posts, then that probably means you don't believe in the American Dream using the definition Tim provided.

 

[Christo]

I think a better definition of the American Dream is simply the ability to chart your own course.

You are at an advantage/disadvantage dependent upon what circumstances you're born into, of course. That's obvious. But it doesn't mean you have to/are entitled to staying there.

Tim provided the definition in the OP. If you're having to move the goal posts, then that probably means you don't believe in the American Dream using the definition Tim provided.

Then neither does The Commish. Tim's definition says nothing about having to recreate Bill Gates-like success to achieve the American Dream.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I think a better definition of the American Dream is simply the ability to chart your own course.

You are at an advantage/disadvantage dependent upon what circumstances you're born into, of course. That's obvious. But it doesn't mean you have to/are entitled to staying there.

Tim provided the definition in the OP. If you're having to move the goal posts, then that probably means you don't believe in the American Dream using the definition Tim provided.

I think what's wrong (or at least a disconnection) in Tim's OP is where he says "Recent polling suggest that many younger Americans don't believe in this any longer.", where "This" is the definition he provided.

I don't think young people have as the definition he cited the one they use to define the American Dream. It seems like most kids (my nephew is one of them) think that unless they can get rich then there's no use trying at all.

 

[Politician Spock]

I think a better definition of the American Dream is simply the ability to chart your own course.

You are at an advantage/disadvantage dependent upon what circumstances you're born into, of course. That's obvious. But it doesn't mean you have to/are entitled to staying there.

Tim provided the definition in the OP. If you're having to move the goal posts, then that probably means you don't believe in the American Dream using the definition Tim provided.

I think what's wrong (or at least a disconnection) in Tim's OP is where he says "Recent polling suggest that many younger Americans don't believe in this any longer.", where "This" is the definition he provided.I don't think young people have as the definition he cited the one they use to define the American Dream. It seems like most kids (my nephew is one of them) think that unless they can get rich then there's no use trying at all.

Do you think maybe that's because the state of our economy is headed for a future that produces only two results: 1) rich success stories; and 2) people just hoping to stay employed until they retire?

I believe the middle class is disappearing in this country, and I believe mom & pop businesses were the fuel of the middle class.

 

[timschochet]

In the OP I quoted Wiki's definition. In the second post, I gave my own thoughts, which is really that there are 2 definitions that don't have much to do with each other:

The first is the Horatio Algier one: anybody can get rich. Anybody can advance from where you were. This is the land of opportunity.

The second is more of a social contract: as an adult, there will be a job for you. The type of job will depend on your level of education. But whatever the job is, you will be able to afford a house, some vacations, to pay for your kids education, and retirement. And you don't have to worry about losing the job so long as you do your best.

 

[Politician Spock]

I think a better definition of the American Dream is simply the ability to chart your own course.

You are at an advantage/disadvantage dependent upon what circumstances you're born into, of course. That's obvious. But it doesn't mean you have to/are entitled to staying there.

Tim provided the definition in the OP. If you're having to move the goal posts, then that probably means you don't believe in the American Dream using the definition Tim provided.

Then neither does The Commish. Tim's definition says nothing about having to recreate Bill Gates-like success to achieve the American Dream.

I agree. Which is why I was compelled to clarify with The Commish the definition despite agreeing with his points 100%.

 

[Christo]

I think a better definition of the American Dream is simply the ability to chart your own course.

You are at an advantage/disadvantage dependent upon what circumstances you're born into, of course. That's obvious. But it doesn't mean you have to/are entitled to staying there.

Tim provided the definition in the OP. If you're having to move the goal posts, then that probably means you don't believe in the American Dream using the definition Tim provided.

I think what's wrong (or at least a disconnection) in Tim's OP is where he says "Recent polling suggest that many younger Americans don't believe in this any longer.", where "This" is the definition he provided.

I don't think young people have as the definition he cited the one they use to define the American Dream. It seems like most kids (my nephew is one of them) think that unless they can get rich then there's no use trying at all.

I think it's a symptom of the 80's Wall Street excess and 90's dot-com boom.

 

[urbanhack]

Kinda hard to given the dominance of corporate America and our ridiculously dysfunctional government. Remove those obstacles and sky's the limit.

Isn't corporate America a part of the dream, though?

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Do you think maybe that's because the state of our economy is headed for a future that produces only two results: 1) rich success stories; and 2) people just hoping to stay employed until they retire?

I believe the middle class is disappearing in this country, and I believe mom & pop businesses were the fuel of the middle class.

No and yes.

I think people are complacent as a whole. Our modern conveniences have made us all pretty soft. Particularly the Millennials.

But I do think that big business is as much a threat to our general prosperity as big government.

 

[Brony]

If someone told me in high school, that a beer fridge could be had for less than $100, that I could have Sunday Ticket for ~$300 per year and that a $200 laptop/tablet would provide around-the-clock free porn, well, I would have worked a lot less to achieve my American Dream.

 

[The Commish]

I see this if you're using the same bar for "rich" then and now. IMO, that bar has moved significantly. To your example though....how many apps have been created and fell flat on their face for every successful snapchat? Again, I didn't say "the dream" doesn't exist and can't be achieved. I said it's been made more difficult to achieve.

There were over 1,800 automobile manufacturers in the United States from 1896 to 1930.

Not sure where this is going, but compare that to the millions of failed apps out there in the last 5 years and you begin to see the point. I think Apple adds 20,000 apps a month and their current catalog consists of 1,000,000ish last I looked in December. Very high failure rate.

A lot easier to develop an app than a car company though.

Now or then?

 

[The Commish]

I think a better definition of the American Dream is simply the ability to chart your own course.

You are at an advantage/disadvantage dependent upon what circumstances you're born into, of course. That's obvious. But it doesn't mean you have to/are entitled to staying there.

Tim provided the definition in the OP. If you're having to move the goal posts, then that probably means you don't believe in the American Dream using the definition Tim provided.

Then neither does The Commish. Tim's definition says nothing about having to recreate Bill Gates-like success to achieve the American Dream.

I didn't use Gates' as a bar for knowing when you attain "American Dream" status. I used him as an example of what "American Dream" status looked like to folks of his time. It wasn't about the amount of money they made. It was about working hard, doing it yourself and making something of yourself.

All that said, I don't believe the definition Tim started off with is the definition most would use today.

 

[sublimeone]

The American Dream has changed. Success now involves far more consumption than it did 30 years ago. Starting a business and providing for your family is still a completely viable option but the expectation of wealth is far different than it was. I grew up middle/upper-middle class. As a kid the only people I knew who drove Cadillacs, were "rich" people. Starting in the late 90's it seemed like there was a boom in luxury auto sales. It became fairly common for common people to be cruising around in BMW's, Mercedes and Lexuses.

When I was a kid everyone drove Fords, Chevy's and maybe if you had a little extra scratch a Buick and a lot of those cars were 10+ years old. Our dads changed the oil in the garage and a lot of them even did the brakes and other repairs. Our mom's made dinner pretty much every night, going out to eat was a treat. Even McDonalds was a treat. We weren't in multiple sports leagues and a family had one phone.

Compare that with today, with the current level of expected consumption. Factor in the expectation to have newer, luxury brand cars, each member of the family has a smart phone, and a tablet. There are probably a few computers in the house, at least a couple of flat screens with cable, high-speed internet. Everyone expects to go on vacation. Everyone expects to wear name brand clothing. The kids are in 5 different sports leagues... etc... it's insane.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I used to believe in The American Dream. Now I believe only in the Old Psychiatrists Club.

 

[jonessed]

The American Dream has changed. Success now involves far more consumption than it did 30 years ago. Starting a business and providing for your family is still a completely viable option but the expectation of wealth is far different than it was. I grew up middle/upper-middle class. As a kid the only people I knew who drove Cadillacs, were "rich" people. Starting in the late 90's it seemed like there was a boom in luxury auto sales. It became fairly common for common people to be cruising around in BMW's, Mercedes and Lexuses.

When I was a kid everyone drove Fords, Chevy's and maybe if you had a little extra scratch a Buick and a lot of those cars were 10+ years old. Our dads changed the oil in the garage and a lot of them even did the brakes and other repairs. Our mom's made dinner pretty much every night, going out to eat was a treat. Even McDonalds was a treat. We weren't in multiple sports leagues and a family had one phone.

Compare that with today, with the current level of expected consumption. Factor in the expectation to have newer, luxury brand cars, each member of the family has a smart phone, and a tablet. There are probably a few computers in the house, at least a couple of flat screens with cable, high-speed internet. Everyone expects to go on vacation. Everyone expects to wear name brand clothing. The kids are in 5 different sports leagues... etc... it's insane.

I definitely think the definition has expanded to include more consumption.

 

[Christo]

I think a better definition of the American Dream is simply the ability to chart your own course.

You are at an advantage/disadvantage dependent upon what circumstances you're born into, of course. That's obvious. But it doesn't mean you have to/are entitled to staying there.

Tim provided the definition in the OP. If you're having to move the goal posts, then that probably means you don't believe in the American Dream using the definition Tim provided.

Then neither does The Commish. Tim's definition says nothing about having to recreate Bill Gates-like success to achieve the American Dream.

I didn't use Gates' as a bar for knowing when you attain "American Dream" status. I used him as an example of what "American Dream" status looked like to folks of his time. It wasn't about the amount of money they made. It was about working hard, doing it yourself and making something of yourself.

All that said, I don't believe the definition Tim started off with is the definition most would use today.

It still is.

 

[The Commish]

I think a better definition of the American Dream is simply the ability to chart your own course.

You are at an advantage/disadvantage dependent upon what circumstances you're born into, of course. That's obvious. But it doesn't mean you have to/are entitled to staying there.

Tim provided the definition in the OP. If you're having to move the goal posts, then that probably means you don't believe in the American Dream using the definition Tim provided.

Then neither does The Commish. Tim's definition says nothing about having to recreate Bill Gates-like success to achieve the American Dream.

I didn't use Gates' as a bar for knowing when you attain "American Dream" status. I used him as an example of what "American Dream" status looked like to folks of his time. It wasn't about the amount of money they made. It was about working hard, doing it yourself and making something of yourself.

All that said, I don't believe the definition Tim started off with is the definition most would use today.

It still is.

Perhaps to you. Not talked to many entitled college kids lately?

 

[jwb]

If the "

"Working hard" is a matter of interpretation. My 20 y/o neighbor says he works hard. He doesn't.

But more than that, the "American Dream" is more or less a post WW2 thing. And like I've said in other threads that touched on this topic, that whole thing was an anomaly. That whole "everyone can make a decent house-buying living with an average job" was lightning in a bottle, and it's not coming back. We had a good run - you could say it lasted up through the 90's. But it's over.

Yes, you can still make it big. But the average person with average skills doing well? No more. Paying house-buying wages, with a nice pension, for fairly common work is never happening again.

I think this was a large part of what was considered the american dream and most of this is gone never to return.

By who's doing?

There is no "whose doing". That's kind of the point. There's nobody to blame.

We had decades of average people, with average skills and average jobs, live incredibly above-average lives. The assembly line worker making house-buying wages, with a nice, fat pension. He's 85 now, and he doesn't understand why everyone can't just do what he did. Those days were really only here for a short time - 1945 to the sixties were the salad days, and it slowly diminished to what we have now.

My recently retired neighbor dropped out of high school, and went to work driving a delivery truck locally. Did it for 40 years. He now has a decent pension, plus SS. His wife worked as a hairdresser (and still does, part time). They have a nice little house with an in-ground pool, always has a decent car, eats out twice a week, and vacations every year. They did this on very average salaries, with workaday jobs. THAT'S the "American Dream" as we know it. And for the great majority of people, that's never, ever happening again. We need to face that.

Most people do not want to believe this (even though I think it's astonishingly obvious), and I think it's because many have kids, and they want to believe that "good times" are just an election away. They aren't. We're starting to see the effects now - more people living home well into their late 20's, and even 30's.

I tell people with kids - make sure your kids can do something exceptional. Otherwise, they are in for a tougher financial life than previous generations have known.

 

[DocHolliday]

I think we are using two definitions of the American Dream here. I always understood it to be that by working hard, most anyone could provide a decent middle class life for their family. There were plenty of opportunities to find a decent paying job, regardless of education. That was largely due to the massive manufacturing base we had. Those jobs allowed you to own a home, a car, a family vacation here and there, and send the kids to college. The less educated you were, the harder you worked, but there were opportunities. That dream is much harder to attain nowadays, in my opinion... there are just too few opportunities.

However, there far are more avenues to strike it rich now, thanks to the internet for the most part.

I think this is explains the growing wealth gap, we have more rich, more poor, and fewer and fewer in the middle.

The decrease in manufacturing jobs has to play a big part in the shrinking middle class. Those jobs are never coming back to the US. Cost of doing business for that type of work is much cheaper in many other parts of the world.

People can still obtain their own home, car, and vacations through hard work. It is more difficult now than 50 years ago though. And, it takes longer for folks to get to that level of income. Fifty years ago, there were many manufacturing jobs that started employees out at a livable wage. Kids now have to work their way up to that livable wage over a few years at least.

Paying or saving for children's college is an increasing cost since the cost of college tuition continues to rise. With fewer employers offering a pension, families must put part of their income towards retirement.

 

[StrikeS2k]

A very interesting study that addresses this topic directly came out of Johns Hopkins this week.

Some of the findings:

In a groundbreaking study, Johns Hopkins University researchers followed nearly 800 Baltimore schoolchildren for a quarter of a century, and discovered that their fates were substantially determined by the family they were born into.

"A family's resources and the doors they open cast a long shadow over children's life trajectories," Johns Hopkins sociologist Karl Alexander says in a forthcoming book, The Long Shadow: Family Background, Disadvantaged Urban Youth, and the Transition to Adulthood. "This view is at odds with the popular ethos that we are makers of our own fortune." ...

At nearly 30 years old, almost half the sample found themselves at the same socio-economic status as their parents. The poor stayed poor; those better off remained better off.

Only 33 children moved from birth families in the low-income bracket to the high-income bracket as young adults; if family had no bearing on children's mobility prospects, almost 70 would be expected. And of those who started out well off, only 19 dropped to the low-income bracket, a fourth of the number expected.

Among the most striking findings:

• Almost none of the children from low-income families made it through college. Of the children from low-income families, only 4 percent had a college degree at age 28, compared to 45 percent of the children from higher-income backgrounds. "That's a shocking tenfold difference across social lines," Alexander said.
  
• Among those who did not attend college, white men from low-income backgrounds found the best-paying jobs. Although they had the lowest rate of college attendance and completion, white men from low-income backgrounds found high-paying jobs in what remained of Baltimore's industrial economy. At age 28, 45 percent of them were working in construction trades and industrial crafts, compared with 15 percent of black men from similar backgrounds and virtually no women.
  
• Better-off white men were most likely to abuse drugs. Better-off white men had the highest self-reported rates of drug use, binge drinking, and chronic smoking, followed in each instance by white men of disadvantaged families.
  

What were the statistics for the same groups 50 years ago?

 

[StrikeS2k]

Anyone read the book "the Millionaire next door"?

 

[Godsbrother]

I believe in the American Dream but unfortunately I am an insomniac

 

[Politician Spock]

Most people do not want to believe this (even though I think it's astonishingly obvious), and I think it's because many have kids, and they want to believe that "good times" are just an election away.

It's because denial is the first stage of the five stages of greif. The American Dream is dying, and many people have to go through the stages of grief before they accept that.

 

[Dentist]

The American Dream has changed. Success now involves far more consumption than it did 30 years ago. Starting a business and providing for your family is still a completely viable option but the expectation of wealth is far different than it was. I grew up middle/upper-middle class. As a kid the only people I knew who drove Cadillacs, were "rich" people. Starting in the late 90's it seemed like there was a boom in luxury auto sales. It became fairly common for common people to be cruising around in BMW's, Mercedes and Lexuses.

When I was a kid everyone drove Fords, Chevy's and maybe if you had a little extra scratch a Buick and a lot of those cars were 10+ years old. Our dads changed the oil in the garage and a lot of them even did the brakes and other repairs. Our mom's made dinner pretty much every night, going out to eat was a treat. Even McDonalds was a treat. We weren't in multiple sports leagues and a family had one phone.

Compare that with today, with the current level of expected consumption. Factor in the expectation to have newer, luxury brand cars, each member of the family has a smart phone, and a tablet. There are probably a few computers in the house, at least a couple of flat screens with cable, high-speed internet. Everyone expects to go on vacation. Everyone expects to wear name brand clothing. The kids are in 5 different sports leagues... etc... it's insane.

I agree.

I think it's actually cheaper than it has ever been (inflation adjusted) to biologically live.

But biologically living isn't "enough" anymore... The consumption is crazy.

I think how little we spent growing up... chevy car, also rarely went out to eat, basic telephone service, over the air tv, no cell phones, no internet.. it was pretty basic and it all worked.

 

[roadkill1292]

If the "

"Working hard" is a matter of interpretation. My 20 y/o neighbor says he works hard. He doesn't.

But more than that, the "American Dream" is more or less a post WW2 thing. And like I've said in other threads that touched on this topic, that whole thing was an anomaly. That whole "everyone can make a decent house-buying living with an average job" was lightning in a bottle, and it's not coming back. We had a good run - you could say it lasted up through the 90's. But it's over.

Yes, you can still make it big. But the average person with average skills doing well? No more. Paying house-buying wages, with a nice pension, for fairly common work is never happening again.

I think this was a large part of what was considered the american dream and most of this is gone never to return.

By who's doing?

There is no "whose doing". That's kind of the point. There's nobody to blame.

We had decades of average people, with average skills and average jobs, live incredibly above-average lives. The assembly line worker making house-buying wages, with a nice, fat pension. He's 85 now, and he doesn't understand why everyone can't just do what he did. Those days were really only here for a short time - 1945 to the sixties were the salad days, and it slowly diminished to what we have now.

My recently retired neighbor dropped out of high school, and went to work driving a delivery truck locally. Did it for 40 years. He now has a decent pension, plus SS. His wife worked as a hairdresser (and still does, part time). They have a nice little house with an in-ground pool, always has a decent car, eats out twice a week, and vacations every year. They did this on very average salaries, with workaday jobs. THAT'S the "American Dream" as we know it. And for the great majority of people, that's never, ever happening again. We need to face that.

Most people do not want to believe this (even though I think it's astonishingly obvious), and I think it's because many have kids, and they want to believe that "good times" are just an election away. They aren't. We're starting to see the effects now - more people living home well into their late 20's, and even 30's.

I tell people with kids - make sure your kids can do something exceptional. Otherwise, they are in for a tougher financial life than previous generations have known.

I think this is all pretty much true. In fact, my father fits the bill here, too.

What we shouldn't leave out, though, is (Millionaire Next Door reference coming) that that generation working those jobs also played much better financial defense than following generations have. They kept those big-ticket expenditures pared down to the bone.

 

[Dentist]

Anyone read the book "the Millionaire next door"?

great book... although a Million bucks just isn't what it used to be anymore..

I enjoyed a lot of what that author had to say about society.... with this caveat: Essentially at the end of the day he decided you were a success if you were an accumulator who made a ton of money and didn't spend said money and built a legacy.... life was well lived if you accomplished a lot in your life.

I live my life similarly to the Millionaire next door.. but I don't give a crap about leaving a legacy or "accomplishing anything"... Life is well lived to me if you don't have to do anything you don't want to do... the goal should be freedom... freedom from having to make money or work.

 

[shader]

I see this if you're using the same bar for "rich" then and now. IMO, that bar has moved significantly. To your example though....how many apps have been created and fell flat on their face for every successful snapchat? Again, I didn't say "the dream" doesn't exist and can't be achieved. I said it's been made more difficult to achieve.

There were over 1,800 automobile manufacturers in the United States from 1896 to 1930.

Not sure where this is going, but compare that to the millions of failed apps out there in the last 5 years and you begin to see the point. I think Apple adds 20,000 apps a month and their current catalog consists of 1,000,000ish last I looked in December. Very high failure rate.

A lot easier to develop an app than a car company though.

Plus an app is just one small avenue that people have to make money.

 

[dickey moe]

If the "

"Working hard" is a matter of interpretation. My 20 y/o neighbor says he works hard. He doesn't.

But more than that, the "American Dream" is more or less a post WW2 thing. And like I've said in other threads that touched on this topic, that whole thing was an anomaly. That whole "everyone can make a decent house-buying living with an average job" was lightning in a bottle, and it's not coming back. We had a good run - you could say it lasted up through the 90's. But it's over.

Yes, you can still make it big. But the average person with average skills doing well? No more. Paying house-buying wages, with a nice pension, for fairly common work is never happening again.

I think this was a large part of what was considered the american dream and most of this is gone never to return.

By who's doing?

There is no "whose doing". That's kind of the point. There's nobody to blame.

We had decades of average people, with average skills and average jobs, live incredibly above-average lives. The assembly line worker making house-buying wages, with a nice, fat pension. He's 85 now, and he doesn't understand why everyone can't just do what he did. Those days were really only here for a short time - 1945 to the sixties were the salad days, and it slowly diminished to what we have now.

My recently retired neighbor dropped out of high school, and went to work driving a delivery truck locally. Did it for 40 years. He now has a decent pension, plus SS. His wife worked as a hairdresser (and still does, part time). They have a nice little house with an in-ground pool, always has a decent car, eats out twice a week, and vacations every year. They did this on very average salaries, with workaday jobs. THAT'S the "American Dream" as we know it. And for the great majority of people, that's never, ever happening again. We need to face that.

Most people do not want to believe this (even though I think it's astonishingly obvious), and I think it's because many have kids, and they want to believe that "good times" are just an election away. They aren't. We're starting to see the effects now - more people living home well into their late 20's, and even 30's.

I tell people with kids - make sure your kids can do something exceptional. Otherwise, they are in for a tougher financial life than previous generations have known.

Best post/summary in here so far.

 

[Dentist]

I think a better definition of the American Dream is simply the ability to chart your own course.

You are at an advantage/disadvantage dependent upon what circumstances you're born into, of course. That's obvious. But it doesn't mean you have to/are entitled to staying there.

I think this is a pretty good post.

At least you aren't really held down by your government like in a communist or dictatorship type of company where the government impedes your progress or can take anything away from you whenever they want.

There are ways to prosperity no matter what socioeconomic class you are born into... as well as pathways to the poorhouse.

Now certainly a kid born into a broken, poor home has an extremely low % chance of ever living large... but it will be genetics or personality holding you back... not America

 

[shader]

I think that it's amazing how lazy people are and how little self-awareness people have. I've known so many people that have a chip on their shoulder, don't work hard, have trouble getting along with others, think that the "bosses are out to get them", complain, whine, take no responsibility for their actions, etc.

I think this is part of the reason so many struggle. You can go to freaking McDonald's or Walmart and be making 80 grand in 5-6 years if you bust your butt and work hard.

Maybe I live in a nicer area and so I'm blinded to the reality of life in much of the country. I think the country is sick financially, don't get me wrong. But for those that work hard and try, it's easier than ever, imo, to make good money.

Housing is easier than ever to get. Interest rates are ridiculously low and you just need solid credit to get 0 money down (though I haven't checked in a few years I'm pretty sure this is still the case).

New cars are ridiculous, but they are so well made that you can buy a car 2-3 years old and drive luxuriously with low monthly payments and total cost.

The car/house/toys/electronics part of life is easier than it ever has been. Poor people on gov't welfare have the latest phones and gadgets.

The bad part of today's economy is medical bills, food and gas. These three things are killer. But again, work hard, be smart with your money and you can still do anything your parents could do. Your parents just worked harder than you do.

 

[FUBAR]

Anyone read the book "the Millionaire next door"?

great book... although a Million bucks just isn't what it used to be anymore..

I enjoyed a lot of what that author had to say about society.... with this caveat: Essentially at the end of the day he decided you were a success if you were an accumulator who made a ton of money and didn't spend said money and built a legacy.... life was well lived if you accomplished a lot in your life.

I live my life similarly to the Millionaire next door.. but I don't give a crap about leaving a legacy or "accomplishing anything"... Life is well lived to me if you don't have to do anything you don't want to do... the goal should be freedom... freedom from having to make money or work.

That's the problem. Not for you individually because you actually have a work ethic and want to be self-sufficient.

But, many people don't care about accomplishing anything, they just want to do what they want, when they want, without working to earn that privilege.

They want freedom but not responsibility.

 

[Brony]

I never thought of the American dream in terms of car brand, pension, or toys. I thought it was more of a belief that one had the freedom and/or ability to change their income / living situation via hard work and gumption. While I do agree that there is less gumption out there, I still don't see societal barriers to the potential for upward mobility.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I wonder what impact the Gen X's inheriting the assets of their Baby Boomer parents' estates will have as the boomers die off.

Will the wealth be able to assist the X-ers in their own retirements?

If the Boomers' house was paid off, will the X-ers move into them and sell off their own homes (or sell their parents' home to pay for their own)?

Will the Boomer wealth be used to pay off their Gen-Y grandchildren's school debt?

For example, my parents' house is paid off. If they leave that to me and I decide to live there, then I don't have that life expense anymore. Frees up more income for me to do other things.

 

[The Duff Man]

The American Dream lives, but the path to get there isnt what people think it is.

The education system mostly sets you up to be a worker bee....whether that is in a factory or corporate America.

Think differently than others, don't be afraid to fail, and put in the work that most won't. The world and all its possibilities will open to you.

It is astounding how little you have to do to be considered exceptional.....because most others set the bar so low.

 

[Christo]

I never thought of the American dream in terms of car brand, pension, or toys. I thought it was more of a belief that one had the freedom and/or ability to change their income / living situation via hard work and gumption. While I do agree that there is less gumption out there, I still don't see societal barriers to the potential for upward mobility.

The barriers are in the mind.

 

[shader]

The American Dream lives, but the path to get there isnt what people think it is.

The education system mostly sets you up to be a worker bee....whether that is in a factory or corporate America.

Think differently than others, don't be afraid to fail, and put in the work that most won't. The world and all its possibilities will open to you.

It is astounding how little you have to do to be considered exceptional.....because most others set the bar so low.

Totally agree

 

[Clifford]

Kinda hard to given the dominance of corporate America and our ridiculously dysfunctional government. Remove those obstacles and sky's the limit.

Isn't corporate America a part of the dream, though? As in, you too can become a vice-president in a large corporation if you work hard enough, and you'll become rich if you do.

Kids are making six figures becoming internet celebritys on youtube. Large corporations will pay all kinds of money just for eyeballs. Some guy invented a freaking camera filter for a smartphone, hooked it up to blogging software, and made a BILLION freaking dollars. Never at any point in history has it required less work or ingenuity to become a freaking millionaire/billionaire.

 

[jwb]

Kinda hard to given the dominance of corporate America and our ridiculously dysfunctional government. Remove those obstacles and sky's the limit.

Isn't corporate America a part of the dream, though? As in, you too can become a vice-president in a large corporation if you work hard enough, and you'll become rich if you do.

Kids are making six figures becoming internet celebritys on youtube. Large corporations will pay all kinds of money just for eyeballs. Some guy invented a freaking camera filter for a smartphone, hooked it up to blogging software, and made a BILLION freaking dollars. Never at any point in history has it required less work or ingenuity to become a freaking millionaire/billionaire.

Yea, but you're pointing to the exception and saying "see, see". You may as well say "the guy who invented the pet rock..." that was trotted out 30 years ago.

Also, "inventing a camera filter for a smartphone, and hooking it to blogging software" is something probably less than 1% of the population can even begin to attempt. And getting youtube eyeballs is astonishingly hard. Don't look at the lack of sweat equity that the one guy who does it put in and say "gee, that seems easy". It's not.

 

[Todd Andrews]

Heck yeah!

 

[shader]

Kinda hard to given the dominance of corporate America and our ridiculously dysfunctional government. Remove those obstacles and sky's the limit.

Isn't corporate America a part of the dream, though? As in, you too can become a vice-president in a large corporation if you work hard enough, and you'll become rich if you do.

Kids are making six figures becoming internet celebritys on youtube. Large corporations will pay all kinds of money just for eyeballs. Some guy invented a freaking camera filter for a smartphone, hooked it up to blogging software, and made a BILLION freaking dollars. Never at any point in history has it required less work or ingenuity to become a freaking millionaire/billionaire.

Yea, but you're pointing to the exception and saying "see, see". You may as well say "the guy who invented the pet rock..." that was trotted out 30 years ago.

Also, "inventing a camera filter for a smartphone, and hooking it to blogging software" is something probably less than 1% of the population can even begin to attempt. And getting youtube eyeballs is astonishingly hard. Don't look at the lack of sweat equity that the one guy who does it put in and say "gee, that seems easy". It's not.

It's never EASY to get rich, aside from the rare lottery winners. It pretty much always requires either an unusually good idea, or hard work.

The point is that it's easier now than it was 50-100 years ago. What options did a guy have in the 50's to get rich???

The internet has changed everything and brought education into everyone's homes. A person can continually learn and teach themselves in ways that simply weren't possible 50 years ago.

It is and it isn't amazing that so many argue this point. To me, it seems self-evident and logical. But then, most people that you talk to are complainers that complain about their job, company, life, etc. So I guess it shouldn't be surprising.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

Anyone read the book "the Millionaire next door"?

great book... although a Million bucks just isn't what it used to be anymore..

I enjoyed a lot of what that author had to say about society.... with this caveat: Essentially at the end of the day he decided you were a success if you were an accumulator who made a ton of money and didn't spend said money and built a legacy.... life was well lived if you accomplished a lot in your life.

I live my life similarly to the Millionaire next door.. but I don't give a crap about leaving a legacy or "accomplishing anything"... Life is well lived to me if you don't have to do anything you don't want to do... the goal should be freedom... freedom from having to make money or work.

Great book. Everyone should read it. Its pretty simple approach, but still a good read.