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Do you personally agree with taking down confederate monuments? (1 Viewer)

I have no problem with Robert E. Lee monuments. There were honorable men on both sides. On the North, Sherman was no saint but exactly the type of general and strategist you need to win a war. Every time I walk past his monument at the entrance to Central Park, it reminds me that winners get to write history. He's a hero because the North won, but had they lost he would have been remembered much differently.  

 
Christo said:
Monument - a structure erected to commemorate something

Commemorate - recall and show respect for

It's time for them to come down and be put in a museum
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Supported. 

Quez said:
I think it's opening up a can of worms.  All those old guys have baggage.  Unless we are going to erase everyone's name who owned a slave.  Adios, Jefferson.  Goodbye Washington, and even Lincoln.
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:yes:  the irony of this paragraph is astounding. 

CNN)Protests are rattling genteel Charlottesville, Virginia, hometown of Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, over the city's plans to remove a statue of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee from a downtown park.

seriously, Charlottesville is a great place, we enjoyed our year there, I return almost every year and it's one of my favorite places.  But Jefferson remains a hero despite his personal behavior being rather abhorrent. Meanwhile the (arguably) greatest general in our history has become a symbol of controversy. Not for what he did but for what he represents (or people's perspectives). neither was perfect but Lee seems to have been the more moral person.

 
-OZ- said:
That same argument could be used against Washington and a whole lot of others, depending on your definition of evil. 
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This was my starting point.  Take down Rome, Constantinople, Athens, everything the Pharoahs built, etc etc.  Those were all built on the backs of slaves, and with the spoils of victory for a people no longer in charge. 

Now, to be fair, they are not monuments per se, so they're allowed.  Right?  

 
proninja said:
That has nothing to do with the point I made. 
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Then I'm missing your point.  Fwiw I didn't read 3 pages of the thread.  Someone being a murderer would be a very good reason to not have a statue honoring them. 

proninja said:
Right, and I'd encourage you to look for the George Washington thread if you'd like to apply it there. This thread is about something different. 

If you're bringing up unrelated things, it's a sign you've got a terrible argument. 
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Your inability to see the comparison is telling. 

 
proninja said:
Fine, killing. I don't care to argue semantics with you. 
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Do you think that everyone that fought on the losing side was dishonorable regardless of their reasons for doing so? And conversely, was everyone on the winning side a hero worthy of a majestic, gilded bronze statue riding on a horse led by an angel?

On a side note, Sherman's statue is pretty awesome

 
MarvinTScamper said:
This was my starting point.  Take down Rome, Constantinople, Athens, everything the Pharoahs built, etc etc.  Those were all built on the backs of slaves, and with the spoils of victory for a people no longer in charge. 

Now, to be fair, they are not monuments per se, so they're allowed.  Right?  
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Are we not considering the pyramids or sphinx to be monuments? I never really thought about it, just assumed they were. 

 
proninja said:
Your inability to see them as anything but identical situations that should be treated identically is also telling. 
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Who said identical? Are they removing the statues because he lost?  (Don't think so) or because he represents a very bad part of our history.  Presuming it's the latter, Jefferson was no better.  If it's the losing you'd have a better argument.  

 
I will say this, anyone who's main reason (hell, even at all) for fighting was to protect slavery deserves no respect because they had no honor. 

 
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TwinTurbo said:
Do you think that everyone that fought on the losing side was dishonorable regardless of their reasons for doing so? And conversely, was everyone on the winning side a hero worthy of a majestic, gilded bronze statue riding on a horse led by an angel?
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Nope. But they were fighting for something abhorrent nonetheless. We don't need statues built in their honor. 

 
MarvinTScamper said:
I will say this, anyone who's main reason (he'll, even at all) for fighting was to protect slavery deserves no respect because they had no honor. 
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Fwiw

Contrarily, Confederate General Robert E. Lee freed his slaves (which he never purchased — they were inherited) in 1862! Lee freed his slaves several years before the war was over, and considerably earlier than his Northern counterparts. And during the fierce early days of the war when the South was obliterating the Yankee armies!

http://www.snopes.com/confederate-history-slave-ownership/

eta: there are conflicting accounts regarding Lee, and ownership or freeing of slaves.   My understanding which could be wrong, was that he freed his slaves before being legally required.  Doesn't necessarily make him a great man, but he was a product of his times and no worse on this issue than many of our "heroes".

 
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Is there a push to "whitewash" even places like Gettysburg, Antietam or Harpers Ferry?.....or is this more just about getting the Nathaniel Bedford Forrest statue out of the post office in Pigsknuckle, Arkansas?

 
-OZ- said:
Fwiw

Contrarily, Confederate General Robert E. Lee freed his slaves (which he never purchased — they were inherited) in 1862! Lee freed his slaves several years before the war was over, and considerably earlier than his Northern counterparts. And during the fierce early days of the war when the South was obliterating the Yankee armies!

http://www.snopes.com/confederate-history-slave-ownership/

eta: there are conflicting accounts regarding Lee, and ownership or freeing of slaves.   My understanding which could be wrong, was that he freed his slaves before being legally required.  Doesn't necessarily make him a great man, but he was a product of his times and no worse on this issue than many of our "heroes".
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I have no idea about many of the soldiers what they were fighting to support.  I'm sure many fought for many different reasons.  Many were certainly honorable. But my point stands.  

 
MarvinTScamper said:
I have no idea about many of the soldiers what they were fighting to support.  I'm sure many fought for many different reasons.  Many were certainly honorable. But my point stands.  
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I don't disagree.  I'm just not for removing Lee's statues. But at the same time the protest was awful. 

These monuments need to be part of a greater discussion which essentially boils down to what to do with the negative parts of our history.  But too often when someone mentions that the US hasn't been perfect they take heat. Take President Trump's comments when asked about Russia. He wasn't wrong about us making mistakes.  But he took a lot of criticism for it (to be fair his response could have been stated better to make the point).   

Frankly, removing these statues makes ignoring our mistakes a bit easier.  Instead we need to be truthful about our past, all of it, own it, and learn from it. 

A few months ago, my sons and I walked by This statue. Now, I can support removing that one (though Alabama will probably be the last to do so) but it also provided the opportunity to talk about history and how even many of our "heroes" were wrong about things.  My 12yo knew about Jefferson and commented about his lineage.  We talked about how people who do great things might also do bad things but it's up to us to do our best to follow our morals every day, in every thing we do. 

The removal of these statues just seems too much like trying to hide our history.  There are other ways to get the point across but I'm in favor of, tastefully (I'm not implying the picture linked is but I do think the one in Charlottesville was) providing these opportunities for discussion. Maybe the answer is to redo many of these monuments but if we're not willing to discuss the reasons for the change we'll never get anywhere good. 

 
Thunderlips said:
Is there a push to "whitewash" even places like Gettysburg, Antietam or Harpers Ferry?.....or is this more just about getting the Nathaniel Bedford Forrest statue out of the post office in Pigsknuckle, Arkansas?
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What do you mean by whtitewash Gettysburg?

 
They should have left the statues in place, and then added new statues right next to them, honoring slaves and/or the Civil Rights movement.

 
-OZ- said:
I don't disagree.  I'm just not for removing Lee's statues. But at the same time the protest was awful. 

These monuments need to be part of a greater discussion which essentially boils down to what to do with the negative parts of our history.  But too often when someone mentions that the US hasn't been perfect they take heat. Take President Trump's comments when asked about Russia. He wasn't wrong about us making mistakes.  But he took a lot of criticism for it (to be fair his response could have been stated better to make the point).   

Frankly, removing these statues makes ignoring our mistakes a bit easier.  Instead we need to be truthful about our past, all of it, own it, and learn from it. 

A few months ago, my sons and I walked by This statue. Now, I can support removing that one (though Alabama will probably be the last to do so) but it also provided the opportunity to talk about history and how even many of our "heroes" were wrong about things.  My 12yo knew about Jefferson and commented about his lineage.  We talked about how people who do great things might also do bad things but it's up to us to do our best to follow our morals every day, in every thing we do. 

The removal of these statues just seems too much like trying to hide our history.  There are other ways to get the point across but I'm in favor of, tastefully (I'm not implying the picture linked is but I do think the one in Charlottesville was) providing these opportunities for discussion. Maybe the answer is to redo many of these monuments but if we're not willing to discuss the reasons for the change we'll never get anywhere good. 
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It sounds like we aren't hiding our history at all since your son knew about Jefferson. If anything, my expectation is schools are much more openly teaching about the dark side of American history than 30-50 years ago. Taking down a statute honoring someone isn't at all the same as erasing topics from history books. Those statutes don't teach anyone anything except that the people of the community respect and honor the person and their legacy. 

Just look at the protests to save the statues. Who is coming out to save them? Extreme racists or historians?

 
Joe Summer said:
They should have left the statues in place, and then added new statues right next to them, honoring slaves and/or the Civil Rights movement.
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That would be great news for the Statute Builders' Union, but probably not a practical solution given space limitations, plus those monuments might have their own controversies as I doubt they would be warmly received by the pro Confederacy crowd.

 
Ilov80s said:
It sounds like we aren't hiding our history at all since your son knew about Jefferson. If anything, my expectation is schools are much more openly teaching about the dark side of American history than 30-50 years ago. Taking down a statute honoring someone isn't at all the same as erasing topics from history books. Those statutes don't teach anyone anything except that the people of the community respect and honor the person and their legacy. 

Just look at the protests to save the statues. Who is coming out to save them? Extreme racists or historians?
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After careful analysis, I think I have the answer.  

 
Some of these guys should probably go, but others should stay. I'm not the judge and I'm not sure who should be but some of the Confederate folks deserve their honors.

 
Ilov80s said:
It sounds like we aren't hiding our history at all since your son knew about Jefferson. If anything, my expectation is schools are much more openly teaching about the dark side of American history than 30-50 years ago. Taking down a statute honoring someone isn't at all the same as erasing topics from history books. Those statutes don't teach anyone anything except that the people of the community respect and honor the person and their legacy. 

Just look at the protests to save the statues. Who is coming out to save them? Extreme racists or historians?
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If you're lucky enough to get a good teacher, or do your own research, sure.  Monuments provide teaching moments, kids see the dude on the horse or whatever and tend to ask questions - at least mine do.  

 
-OZ- said:
If you're lucky enough to get a good teacher, or do your own research, sure.  Monuments provide teaching moments, kids see the dude on the horse or whatever and tend to ask questions - at least mine do.  
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I teach history and I've never seen a history book or worked with another history teacher that didn't stress the controversial elements of our history like slsvery, Jim Crow South, Japanese internment, etc.  Maybe things are different in the South? 

So what if a kid asks their parents about the statue? If the schools aren't teaching it than the parent might not have a very informed response. I get the idea of a talking point but that's also ignoring that it's also sending a message to minoroties that's pretty damn terrible imo. 

 
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Ilov80s said:
I teach history and I've never seen a history book or worked with another history teacher that didn't stress the controversial elements of our history like slsvery, Jim Crow South, Japanese internment, etc.  Maybe things are different in the South?
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Maybe where we lived before but they've learned more in Alabama than north Carolina, Virginia or we did in Michigan. 

Eta - I assume you're teaching history above elementary school. 

 
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