Do you think you would be a good NFL GM? (1 Viewer)

[Bojang0301]

At least I wouldn’t request for Hakeem Butler to be tried out at TE, Devin Singletary at WR, Dremont Jones and Ed Oliver as LB’s. I can at least say that for myself. Some of you people’s GM’s are a lot more idiotic than people on this board, I’ll say that. 

 

[Bronco Billy]

At least I wouldn’t request for Hakeem Butler to be tried out at TE, Devin Singletary at WR, Dremont Jones and Ed Oliver as LB’s. I can at least say that for myself. Some of you people’s GM’s are a lot more idiotic than people on this board, I’ll say that. 

So you consider thinking outside of the box to be a negative trait?

 

[Bojang0301]

So you consider thinking outside of the box to be a negative trait?

That wasn’t thinking outside the box, that was being a dbag. Nothing about any of those players suggested that treatment. Singletary had six receptions last year. These are simpletons that made those requests.

Edit to add: if these people were “outside the box” where was the request for Noah Fant to play WR?

 

[Bronco Billy]

That wasn’t thinking outside the box, that was being a dbag. Nothing about any of those players suggested that treatment. Singletary had six receptions last year. These are simpletons that made those requests.

If you say so.  I’ll strongly disagree.  What treatment are you speaking of?  That those players do some addition testing while on-site to get a glimpse into their skills range and potential flexibilty?  That’s not an insult, that’s good due diligence.  Geez, where do some of you guys get this stuff?

 

[JohnnyU]

unbelievable there are currently 40 out of 81 people saying yes.  Unbelievable arrogance. 

 

[Capella]

unbelievable there are currently 40 out of 81 people saying yes.  Unbelievable arrogance. 

Yea it’s hilarious 

 

[Bojang0301]

If you say so.  I’ll strongly disagree.  What treatment are you speaking of?  That those players do some addition testing while on-site to get a glimpse into their skills range and potential flexibilty?  That’s not an insult, that’s good due diligence.  Geez, where do some of you guys get this stuff?

It wasn’t to do due diligence, it was to suggest the players in question couldn’t play their given position. It’s idiotic and insulting at best, but ok.

 

[Bojang0301]

Matt Millen survived several years. Dave Gettleman is a ####### moron. I would take JohnnyU over him taking Benny Snell in the 2nd round. Jason Licht took a kicker in the 2nd. The absolute blind defense of NFL GM’s is weak sauce. Most of these guys are the morons you see on a construction site with a large dip in their mouth and beer belly watching other people do all the work. There is nothing intelligent happening at the high end of a great many front offices. Please, please, please stop comparing them to rocket scientists. They’re not even good at game theory. 

 

[Bronco Billy]

It wasn’t to do due diligence, it was to suggest the players in question couldn’t play their given position. It’s idiotic and insulting at best, but ok.

You know that how?  Is that a direct quote from the GM or speculation from some reporter?  

For example - If I’m a GM or a HC, I’d love to see Butler get some TE work at the Combine, because I can envision putting him in a tight slot as a meaningful (but not base set) portion of my offense  - meaning he may need to chip an edge rusher or a DT in a stunt - because I can envision using him like NE uses Gronk and creating mismatch chaos on the D side of the ball.  If he’s got the will, attitude, and some strength there that may move him up a round on my draft board.  So is that insulting to Butler to see if he’s got the capability to handle that kind of responsibility as part of my draft research?  Seems pretty stupid if I have that vision for him that I don’t investigate it given the opportunity of the Combine, doesn’t it?

Damn, use some imagination and stop looking for players being made into victims.

.

 

[Bronco Billy]

That wasn’t thinking outside the box, that was being a dbag. Nothing about any of those players suggested that treatment. Singletary had six receptions last year. These are simpletons that made those requests.

Edit to add: if these people were “outside the box” where was the request for Noah Fant to play WR?

You mean a GM doesn’t realize at this point that Fant can’t play as a receiver?  Now that is insulting.

And maybe I have a vision for Singletary as a slot guy out of the backfield as part of my offense, but I sure as hell need to see if he is capable of catching regularly before I commit a draft pick to him, don’t I?  What better way to see if he can handle it? Especially since he had all of 6 receptions last year.

 

[Bojang0301]

You mean a GM doesn’t realize at this point that Fant can’t play as a receiver?  Now that is insulting.

And maybe I have a vision for Singletary as a slot guy out of the backfield as part of my offense, but I sure as hell need to see if he is capable of catching regularly before I commit a draft pick to him, don’t I?  What better way to see if he can handle it? Especially since he had all of 6 receptions last year.

Continue to worship GM’s that take kickers in round 2 or RB’s over franchise QB’s and think they’re smarter then you. Those requests were an insult and meant to be an insult. These are petty Neanderthals, not sharp witted intellectuals. You want to think otherwise, have at it.

 

[Bojang0301]

Here’s the link since apparently I’m also a liar for not kissing these nitwits asses: https://twitter.com/nfldraft/status/1101877405701021699?s=21

 

[Bronco Billy]

Here’s the link since apparently I’m also a liar for not kissing these nitwits asses: https://twitter.com/nfldraft/status/1101877405701021699?s=21

Seriously, so what is your beef with this?  It’s a request to see if the players have additional capabilities.  A request - at a second position.  No one is forcing them at gunpoint to change positions.  I’m getting the feeling that you’re just feeling the need to be outraged about something.  Have a great day.

.

 

[Snorkelson]

I don’t think it’s so much that I could do the job. I just don’t think half of these guys are any good at it either. It’s an appointed position, and nfl owners don’t have to know anything about football to own a team. Several times I’ve heard different former gms reach out to the lions to help advise on this process (and have been ignored) so I don’t think it would be hard to find some help pro bono. I also think there are many opportunities to think outside the box by how contracts are constructed, a more realistic approach than promising a back end loaded 100mil deal that never reaches maturity. I would take the Arthur blank route and have cheap tickets until I had full houses and then sell cheap beer. 

 

[IHEARTFF]

I’d say it’s less arrogance and more that multiple gms have shown they’re idiots time and time again. 

 

[Snorkelson]

Imagine you’re at a job interview and you’re asked if you have both ####. Would you be happy to get the job? Or being asked if you’re mom was a prostitute, or any other of the long list of questions gms have asked prospects. 

Matt Millen told William clay ford that he had no idea what he was doing and got hired anyway. Martin Mayhew came in and didn’t do all that much better, with more experience. 

If I had to get up off the couch right now and be a gm it would probably be pretty rough simply because I feel it’s a job the requires a lot of time to prepare for. I simply can’t watch enough tape to get up to speed, and haven’t spent 8 hrs a day (or more) watching college and pro ball taking notes. I don’t have established relationships. Little experience in contract negotiation. I wouldn’t have the slightest idea who to hire as scouts or the rest of the auxiliary staff, or if anyone would want to work for a rookie gm with no experience, so there are a lot of hurdles.  But I think the actual roster construction and hiring coaches etc. wouldn’t be such rocket science imo. 

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Sure.

Currently doing something for several racing teams (pro stock cars) that is along those lines.  They came and recruited me into it, saying they knew it was right within my wheelhouse.  Ive always lead teams/organizations in competitive environments, even at a young age.  Football would have all my time and passion though, I'd be divorced from everything else in life.

 

[zftcg]

Let's make this clear: In the vast majority of jobs that you've never done -- from GM to presidential candidate to accountant to construction worker -- you would do terribly. That's even more the case in high-profile roles where the total number of positions is capped. People think the fact that there are terrible GMs working for NFL teams is a sign they could do the job. It actually signals the exact opposite: NFL teams, led by highly successful businessmen with millions of dollars to spend and a huge incentive to hire the absolute best person, still manage to screw it up. Because it's really hard.

 

[IHEARTFF]

Let's make this clear: In the vast majority of jobs that you've never done -- from GM to presidential candidate to accountant to construction worker -- you would do terribly. That's even more the case in high-profile roles where the total number of positions is capped. People think the fact that there are terrible GMs working for NFL teams is a sign they could do the job. It actually signals the exact opposite: NFL teams, led by highly successful businessmen with millions of dollars to spend and a huge incentive to hire the absolute best person, still manage to screw it up. Because it's really hard.

No, there's no incentive to hire the absolute best person. Billiionaires make billions regardless of team success.

 

[Bronco Billy]

No, there's no incentive to hire the absolute best person. Billiionaires make billions regardless of team success.

So let’s get your logic laid out here:  Wildly successful people buy one of the most highly visible assets in the country that competes directly with similar assets of other wildly successful people and then could care less how it performs?

Yeah, that’s logical.

 

[IHEARTFF]

So let’s get your logic laid out here:  Wildly successful people buy one of the most highly visible assets in the country that competes directly with similar assets of other wildly successful people and then could care less how it performs?

Yeah, that’s logical.

So your logic is that people who were successful in other businesses or inherited billions from their parent are going to be good at owning football teams no matter what?

 

[lod001]

I'd dominate on offense. I would need some lower level guys to help out on D. I would have bypassed Winston and Mariota for the chance at Goff or Wentz the following year. I said it back then. Right now if I was in Miami, I would be positioning the team to suck so bad that Trevor Lawrence would be mine.

You all do realize that a lot of these guys are dumb as a stump and are way past their level of expertise. They are not a bunch of Harvard grads. I mean, who keeps Marvin Lewis around that long? A dummy, that's who. Who keeps handing Matt Stafford huge contracts for mediocrity? A dummy.

 

[Bronco Billy]

So your logic is that people who were successful in other businesses or inherited billions from their parent are going to be good at owning football teams no matter what?

That’s not what I said, is it?  I was responding to your comment that owners had no incentive to hire who they think are the best person to run their team. 

 

[IHEARTFF]

I'd dominate on offense. I would need some lower level guys to help out on D. I would have bypassed Winston and Mariota for the chance at Goff or Wentz the following year. I said it back then. Right now if I was in Miami, I would be positioning the team to suck so bad that Trevor Lawrence would be mine.

Dolphins have been positioning themselves for him since he was born. Er wait no sorry, I mean every team is efficiently competitive. 

 

[lod001]

Dolphins have been positioning themselves for him since he was born. Er wait no sorry, I mean every team is efficiently competitive. 

A smart GM without a franchise QB should be planning ahead for Lawrence. Miami can't be fixed anytime soon so their best move is load up on solid defensive players and just suck at offense and lose games. 2 years of pain for a potential generational talent.

The best thing Hue Jackson did in CLE is to be the most incompetent coach around. He truly has helped the Browns become relevant in the next decade. That led to Baker Mayfield. It took a GM like Dorsey to realize that Mayfield is really good.

 

[Bronco Billy]

I'd dominate on offense.l

literally

 

[IHEARTFF]

A smart GM without a franchise QB should be planning ahead for Lawrence.

I don’t disagree with that. Just pointing out that the dolphins have seemingly not been trying to win for about 18 years or so. 

 

[lod001]

I don’t disagree with that. Just pointing out that the dolphins have seemingly not been trying to win for about 18 years or so. 

they are in the prime position to Luck into Lawrence.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Let's make this clear: In the vast majority of jobs that you've never done -- from GM to presidential candidate to accountant to construction worker -- you would do terribly. That's even more the case in high-profile roles where the total number of positions is capped. People think the fact that there are terrible GMs working for NFL teams is a sign they could do the job. It actually signals the exact opposite: NFL teams, led by highly successful businessmen with millions of dollars to spend and a huge incentive to hire the absolute best person, still manage to screw it up. Because it's really hard.

On top of that, this is a .500 league no matter how good any or all of them are individually.  They literally can't all win.

 

[Da Guru]

Every single one of you would fail miserably. 

I think I would be better than Matt Millen.

 

[Bronco Billy]

I think I would be better than Matt Millen.

Is he the threshold for failure/success?

 

[zftcg]

That’s not what I said, is it?  I was responding to your comment that owners had no incentive to hire who they think are the best person to run their team. 

Exactly. Generally speaking, people who got to be billionaires did so in part by being insanely competitive. That doesn't mean they're smart, it doesn't mean they're necessarily good businessmen, and it doesn't mean that they win all those competitions (just look at the erstwhile owner of the Bills who's currently sitting in the White House). But the notion that they would just sit back and hire a complete idiot like, well, you to be their GM because they didn't care who they hired is ridiculous

(To be clear, I was referring to the collective "you" here, not Bronco Billy).

 

[Bronco Billy]

Exactly. Generally speaking, people who got to be billionaires did so in part by being insanely competitive. That doesn't mean they're smart, it doesn't mean they're necessarily good businessmen, and it doesn't mean that they win all those competitions (just look at the erstwhile owner of the Bills who's currently sitting in the White House). But the notion that they would just sit back and hire a complete idiot like, well, you to be their GM because they didn't care who they hired is ridiculous

(To be clear, I was referring to the collective "you" here, not Bronco Billy).

I resent that. I am absolutely an idiot.

:reported:

 

[zftcg]

No, there's no incentive to hire the absolute best person. Billiionaires make billions regardless of team success.

The incentive is that they want to win at everything they do. It's not about making more money (although they want to do that, too). It's about having Goodell hand you the Lombardi at midfield and basking in the reflected glow of the players who work for you. You think every single owner isn't motivated by that?

 

[zftcg]

I resent that. I am absolutely an idiot.

:reported:

Hey, don't misquote me. I never said you weren't an idiot. I was just clarifying that you weren't the idiot I was referring to in that specific situation.

I'll be sure to let you know when you are the idiot I'm referring to. 

(BTW, I seem to recall mixing it up with both you and @JohnnyU in some other threads on this board, but in this case we're 100% in agreement and  I feel like we're the only sane ones left. How does everyone not see this? It's like I'm taking crazy pills!)

 

[lod001]

The incentive is that they want to win at everything they do. It's not about making more money (although they want to do that, too). It's about having Goodell hand you the Lombardi at midfield and basking in the reflected glow of the players who work for you. You think every single owner isn't motivated by that?

Nope. You would think that but clearly they are not. In baseball, a guy like George Steinbrenner was. He took it to the extreme. Robert Kraft is that guy, there are also others but not every single one of them. The Bengals owner? He and the Lions owner are more about loyalty than winning. They would rather keep the person, they hired, that sucks than fire them to give the team a chance to be a winner. Maybe they are just that stupid or maybe they are hard headed but I would say these 2 simply are penny pinching billionaires. They have both proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt. We are not billionaires but we as commoners, believe that a billionaire would do what it takes to bring the Lombardi home, because that is what we would do. We don't have billions. When you have billions, spending $100 mil on a guy is like a guy making 100k buying a $10,000 hooker.  Bill Bidwell as well was a penny pinching cheapskate. http://carnageandculture.blogspot.com/2009/01/super-bowl-wont-change-cheap-losing.html

 

[Ilov80s]

The incentive is that they want to win at everything they do. It's not about making more money (although they want to do that, too). It's about having Goodell hand you the Lombardi at midfield and basking in the reflected glow of the players who work for you. You think every single owner isn't motivated by that?

I think lots of owners have differing opinions of what they want. The Lions held on to Millen for a long time not because they wanted to win but because the owner liked him. 

 

[Ilov80s]

unbelievable there are currently 40 out of 81 people saying yes.  Unbelievable arrogance. 

It’s a management job. Lots of people here have management experience. Coaching the team, no way. Hiring good people to coach, scout, manage the money, establish a culture, etc. Its very similar to what lots of managers do. Get good people, create an environment where they feel motivated to do their best work and then trust their work. I think the most challenging parts have nothing to do with football but to managing a bunch of millionaires.

 

[Bronco Billy]

It’s a management job. Lots of people here have management experience. Coaching the team, no way. Hiring good people to coach, scout, manage the money, establish a culture, etc. Its very similar to what lots of managers do. Get good people, create an environment where they feel motivated to do their best work and then trust their work. I think the most challenging parts have nothing to do with football but to managing a bunch of millionaires.

Wow.  It’s an executive management job.  Kind of like a CEO.  And HR director.  And Acquisitions.  And Operations.  And Actuarial.  And sometimes judge and jury.

Yeah, they can delegate some tasks, but ultimately they have direct responsibility over a lot of significantly differing decisions.

So a lot of people here who have a lot of managerial experience wouldn’t last 2 weeks in the job.

 

[zftcg]

I think lots of owners have differing opinions of what they want. The Lions held on to Millen for a long time not because they wanted to win but because the owner liked him. 

So is your argument you could be as good as Millen at convincing an incompetent owner to retain you even as you drove the team into the ground?

Anyway, this discussion about whether owners want to be competitive is straying from the original point I was trying to make, which is that a) there are only 32 of these jobs available, and b) while some teams may use sub-optimal hiring processes, across the league as a whole the process for hiring a GM is highly Darwinian. So let's say 25 of the teams are actively trying to hire the best person they can, and yet a number of those teams still end up with crappy GMs. That does not prove that you could be a good GM, it proves the exact opposite: There aren't even 25 people in the entire country who can do the job well. The likelihood that you are among that group is, statistically speaking, infinitesimal.

 

[Ilov80s]

Wow.  It’s an executive management job.  Kind of like a CEO.  And HR director.  And Acquisitions.  And Operations.  And Actuarial.  And sometimes judge and jury.

Yeah, they can delegate some tasks, but ultimately they have direct responsibility over a lot of significantly differing decisions.

So a lot of people here who have a lot of managerial experience wouldn’t last 2 weeks in the job.

Yes they make final decisions and one would need to lean heavily on those people hired who had more experience. People get hired for high level management jobs in fields that they aren't intimately familiar with and it often works out. Why couldh't it work for a football team?  The toughest part of the job would the incredibly long hours IMO. 

So is your argument you could be as good as Millen at convincing an incompetent owner to retain you even as you drove the team into the ground?

Anyway, this discussion about whether owners want to be competitive is straying from the original point I was trying to make, which is that a) there are only 32 of these jobs available, and b) while some teams may use sub-optimal hiring processes, across the league as a whole the process for hiring a GM is highly Darwinian. So let's say 25 of the teams are actively trying to hire the best person they can, and yet a number of those teams still end up with crappy GMs. That does not prove that you could be a good GM, it proves the exact opposite: There aren't even 25 people in the entire country who can do the job well. The likelihood that you are among that group is, statistically speaking, infinitesimal.

No, my only point was countering your claim that every owner is only in it to win. 

Also I don't think it proves your point entirely. It could also mean the teams aren't interviewing the right people and that teams are picking from the same cocoon of options instead of looking at more creative options such as people with executive level experience in nonfootball related fields. Also because the NFL essentially has a monopoly on pro football in the US (sorry AAF) there is no real floor for failure as a GM. The Browns had been the most poorly managed team in the league over the last few years but since the team was purchased in 2012 they have grown in value.  As of this past summer their value had basically doubled. Of all the various types of companies one could run, the NFL is one of the easiest because even if you are awful, the team is going make money for ownership. 

 

[IHEARTFF]

So is your argument you could be as good as Millen at convincing an incompetent owner to retain you even as you drove the team into the ground?

Anyway, this discussion about whether owners want to be competitive is straying from the original point I was trying to make, which is that a) there are only 32 of these jobs available, and b) while some teams may use sub-optimal hiring processes, across the league as a whole the process for hiring a GM is highly Darwinian. So let's say 25 of the teams are actively trying to hire the best person they can, and yet a number of those teams still end up with crappy GMs. That does not prove that you could be a good GM, it proves the exact opposite: There aren't even 25 people in the entire country who can do the job well. The likelihood that you are among that group is, statistically speaking, infinitesimal.

But it's not straying away from the original point because the owners hire the GMs! Their motivations and intelligence and football acumen are all very relevant to who they hire to run their teams.

 

[zftcg]

But it's not straying away from the original point because the owners hire the GMs! Their motivations and intelligence and football acumen are all very relevant to who they hire to run their teams.

OK, I will stipulate that there are probably teams that do not hire with the goal of maximizing wins; maybe I shouldn't have been so categorical. But do you really think it's more than a handful? Do you believe the average GM is hired for the wrong reasons?

 

[IHEARTFF]

OK, I will stipulate that there are probably teams that do not hire with the goal of maximizing wins; maybe I shouldn't have been so categorical. But do you really think it's more than a handful? Do you believe the average GM is hired for the wrong reasons?

Even if it's only about 5 that suck and the rest are pretty good, you can be good by picking players the other 5 miss out on and trading with those gms, etc. But I would guess more than 5 are not pure talent seeking gms who have great processes to find talent.

 

[Ilov80s]

OK, I will stipulate that there are probably teams that do not hire with the goal of maximizing wins; maybe I shouldn't have been so categorical. But do you really think it's more than a handful? Do you believe the average GM is hired for the wrong reasons?

I am sure most of them want to win because it increases value and it is more fun. 

Even if it's only about 5 that suck and the rest are pretty good, you can be good by picking players the other 5 miss out on and trading with those gms, etc. But I would guess more than 5 are not pure talent seeking gms who have great processes to find talent.

I don't even think it is all that. The sport is built for parity. There are salary caps so great drafting teams can't keep all their best players. The draft rewards bad teams by giving them opportunities at the best players. Teams can swing from 6-10 to 10-6 in one season- often just due to good fortune in the form of lower injuries, easier schedule and a couple of key balls bouncing their way. Often much of the career of a GM comes down to 1 decision or 2 decisions: who is the coach they hire and who is the QB they hitch their wagon to. Even the best evaluators whiff on QBs. One bad whiff on an early round QB and a GM could be sunk and one QB who turns into a multi time Pro Bowler and the GM is set for years. 

 

[Bronco Billy]

Yes they make final decisions and one would need to lean heavily on those people hired who had more experience. People get hired for high level management jobs in fields that they aren't intimately familiar with and it often works out. Why couldh't it work for a football team? 

How many of them get hired for the highest hired position in an organization when they demonstrate that they don’t understand what the position fully entails?

 

[Ilov80s]

How many of them get hired for the highest hired position in an organization when they demonstrate that they don’t understand what the position fully entails?

I am not interested in having a personal conversation where you bluster about how much I don't know compared to you. Have a good night.