Dolphin Players bullied Jonathan Martin, Richie Incognito SUSPENDED (2 Viewers)

[JAMES!]

I agree with Scott van Pelt. First 10 minutes of the podcast.

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=9936762

 

[Statorama]

I think Dizzy was a juror in the Nicole Simpson murder trial.

Good example. How much sleep did you lose over that one?

None? Yeah, I thought so.

Dude, being a poster here requires full speed posts and sacrificing your future reputation for the love of the message board... this alone calls for a mindset that .000001% of the public never has to deal with.

Well said

 

[RBM]

Bart Hubbuch ✔ @HubbuchNYP

Hartline is outraged because he says Martin was passing the voicemail around earlier in the year and laughing about it.

i'll preface this by saying that could be an example of mixed signals...

but people might respond to bullying in different ways... some might try to keep up a front that it didn't bother them in the hopes that bluster would defuse the situation... it doesn't necessarily mean they didn't feel bullied?

maybe if some people in the locker room had reacted differently to being presented the text/VMs by martin, and said, YIKES, richie is a bigger psycho than i realized, lets all go to the coach right now, especially the rookies, and complain about that mean bully guy that is on the players leadership council - WAIT!

or if several players in the locker room simultaneously burst into tears, he might have reacted differently...

but if others laughed at it, there would probably be peer pressure on him to laugh, too, or risk being soft, or prickly or a big weirdo (why even show it - maybe he wanted to get outside confirmation or validation of whether incognito had crossed the line or not, and really wasn't sure...

and possibly the rookies and younger players learned the hard way it is better to laugh with richie... than at richie, or risk harrassment, extortion...

did hartline comment on whether martin was laughing and yukking it up about being extorted 100K?

The lengths you're going to take every single piece of info and twist it and turn it to fit your view is getting ridiculous.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

Ryan Tannehill said he can't explain what's happened in the Incognito-Martin situation. He said a week ago they were viewed as best friends

Which would back up a scenario where Martin left the team because of his own personal demons and needed an excuse after the fact to ensure he gets paid. One that his family and/or lawyers push on him? And the vmail gives him that excuse wrapped in a perfect bow.

Did this happen? Who knows? But it is as likely a scenario as the one where Richie's bullying drove him off the team.

And he checked in a hospital briefly, sounds like a checklist...

1. Storm out of the cafeteria

2. Check into hospital

3. Release the Incognito texts and voicemails

4. Sue the Miami Dolphins PROFIT!

so, basically, this is the usual 30 pages of internet goofs rushing to judgement on something they don't know #### about?

figured as much

 

[Phenix]

Does Incognito drive a Prius? LOL

That would be funny. For a big dude he has an awfully small car.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Bart Hubbuch ✔ @HubbuchNYP

Hartline is outraged because he says Martin was passing the voicemail around earlier in the year and laughing about it.

i'll preface this by saying that could be an example of mixed signals...

but people might respond to bullying in different ways... some might try to keep up a front that it didn't bother them in the hopes that bluster would defuse the situation... it doesn't necessarily mean they didn't feel bullied?

maybe if some people in the locker room had reacted differently to being presented the text/VMs by martin, and said, YIKES, richie is a bigger psycho than i realized, lets all go to the coach right now, especially the rookies, and complain about that mean bully guy that is on the players leadership council - WAIT!

or if several players in the locker room simultaneously burst into tears, he might have reacted differently...

but if others laughed at it, there would probably be peer pressure on him to laugh, too, or risk being soft, or prickly or a big weirdo (why even show it - maybe he wanted to get outside confirmation or validation of whether incognito had crossed the line or not, and really wasn't sure...

and possibly the rookies and younger players learned the hard way it is better to laugh with richie... than at richie, or risk harrassment, extortion...

did hartline comment on whether martin was laughing and yukking it up about being extorted 100K?

The lengths you're going to take every single piece of info and twist it and turn it to fit your view is getting ridiculous.

read the first sentence.

you have been contradictory at times, would be the most generous and sympathetic way to put it (paraphrasing upthread)...

"prefacing a post saying incognito was wrong... than proceeding to question martin... when somebody responds concurring that, yes, incognito does sound like he has done some wrong things, you state - HA! you are a hypocrite, for not acknowledging that maybe incognito is right... AFTER YOU JUST SAID HE IS WRONG!?!?!? that is the debate equivalent of crazymaking."

 

[SportsGuru311]

Jerks. he deserved to get suspended

 

[Billy Bats]

Does Incognito drive a Prius? LOL

That would be funny. For a big dude he has an awfully small car.

(CNN) - It should have been a great morning for Richie Incognito. A brand new black Ferrari was delivered to his Florida house on Tuesday.

 

[Phenix]

Does Incognito drive a Prius? LOL

That would be funny. For a big dude he has an awfully small car.

(CNN) - It should have been a great morning for Richie Incognito. A brand new black Ferrari was delivered to his Florida house on Tuesday.

That sure didn't look like a Ferrari he was getting into in the video of the reporter asking him bout the voicemail. lol

Prolly had Martin buy him the Ferrari.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

think it's a VW

 

[RBM]

Bart Hubbuch ✔ @HubbuchNYP

Hartline is outraged because he says Martin was passing the voicemail around earlier in the year and laughing about it.

i'll preface this by saying that could be an example of mixed signals...

but people might respond to bullying in different ways... some might try to keep up a front that it didn't bother them in the hopes that bluster would defuse the situation... it doesn't necessarily mean they didn't feel bullied?

maybe if some people in the locker room had reacted differently to being presented the text/VMs by martin, and said, YIKES, richie is a bigger psycho than i realized, lets all go to the coach right now, especially the rookies, and complain about that mean bully guy that is on the players leadership council - WAIT!

or if several players in the locker room simultaneously burst into tears, he might have reacted differently...

but if others laughed at it, there would probably be peer pressure on him to laugh, too, or risk being soft, or prickly or a big weirdo (why even show it - maybe he wanted to get outside confirmation or validation of whether incognito had crossed the line or not, and really wasn't sure...

and possibly the rookies and younger players learned the hard way it is better to laugh with richie... than at richie, or risk harrassment, extortion...

did hartline comment on whether martin was laughing and yukking it up about being extorted 100K?

The lengths you're going to take every single piece of info and twist it and turn it to fit your view is getting ridiculous.

read the first sentence.

you have been contradictory at times, would be the most generous and sympathetic way to put it (paraphrasing upthread)...

"prefacing a post saying incognito was wrong... than proceeding to question martin... when somebody responds concurring that, yes, incognito does sound like he has done some wrong things, you state - HA! you are a hypocrite, for not acknowledging that maybe incognito is right... AFTER YOU JUST SAID HE IS WRONG!?!?!? that is the debate equivalent of crazymaking."

You're all over the place man. I've never called anyone a hypocrite.

I've been consistent the whole time on these 3 points:

- Incognito is a jackass

- I feel bad for Martin but he did not handle this well and he probably is a big wuss.

- Violence was not necessary

 

[belljr]

I agree with Scott van Pelt. First 10 minutes of the podcast.

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=9936762

 

[KCitons]

Does Incognito drive a Prius? LOL

That would be funny. For a big dude he has an awfully small car.

(CNN) - It should have been a great morning for Richie Incognito. A brand new black Ferrari was delivered to his Florida house on Tuesday.

Check the bill of sale. Did Martin pay for it?

 

[Tango]

Ryan Tannehill said he can't explain what's happened in the Incognito-Martin situation. He said a week ago they were viewed as best friends

Which would back up a scenario where Martin left the team because of his own personal demons and needed an excuse after the fact to ensure he gets paid. One that his family and/or lawyers push on him? And the vmail gives him that excuse wrapped in a perfect bow.Did this happen? Who knows? But it is as likely a scenario as the one where Richie's bullying drove him off the team.

And further to this fictional scenario, is that the kind of vmail you can imagine a roided up pyscho like Richie leaving.....to a friend? Change the context to one of football buddies....Richie Incognito style......and I can see it.

The Tannehill interview might gives the story a 180. Wow.

Yes, putting the 7 month old VM in the best-friend-context changes a lot.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Instant favorite for thread of the year. It's a helluva read if you start from the beginning.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Bart Hubbuch ✔ @HubbuchNYP

Hartline is outraged because he says Martin was passing the voicemail around earlier in the year and laughing about it.

i'll preface this by saying that could be an example of mixed signals...

but people might respond to bullying in different ways... some might try to keep up a front that it didn't bother them in the hopes that bluster would defuse the situation... it doesn't necessarily mean they didn't feel bullied?

maybe if some people in the locker room had reacted differently to being presented the text/VMs by martin, and said, YIKES, richie is a bigger psycho than i realized, lets all go to the coach right now, especially the rookies, and complain about that mean bully guy that is on the players leadership council - WAIT!

or if several players in the locker room simultaneously burst into tears, he might have reacted differently...

but if others laughed at it, there would probably be peer pressure on him to laugh, too, or risk being soft, or prickly or a big weirdo (why even show it - maybe he wanted to get outside confirmation or validation of whether incognito had crossed the line or not, and really wasn't sure...

and possibly the rookies and younger players learned the hard way it is better to laugh with richie... than at richie, or risk harrassment, extortion...

did hartline comment on whether martin was laughing and yukking it up about being extorted 100K?

Maybe...but it goes a long way towards what the team knew, or should have known, about the level of harassment. From the reports out of Miami - Martin seems to be the only one who thought things were out of control. And that may be fine for him - but he can't expect the team to be responsible if everyone else thought the actions were reasonable.

 

[Tango]

Bart Hubbuch ✔ @HubbuchNYP

Hartline is outraged because he says Martin was passing the voicemail around earlier in the year and laughing about it.

i'll preface this by saying that could be an example of mixed signals...

but people might respond to bullying in different ways... some might try to keep up a front that it didn't bother them in the hopes that bluster would defuse the situation... it doesn't necessarily mean they didn't feel bullied?

maybe if some people in the locker room had reacted differently to being presented the text/VMs by martin, and said, YIKES, richie is a bigger psycho than i realized, lets all go to the coach right now, especially the rookies, and complain about that mean bully guy that is on the players leadership council - WAIT!

or if several players in the locker room simultaneously burst into tears, he might have reacted differently...

but if others laughed at it, there would probably be peer pressure on him to laugh, too, or risk being soft, or prickly or a big weirdo (why even show it - maybe he wanted to get outside confirmation or validation of whether incognito had crossed the line or not, and really wasn't sure...

and possibly the rookies and younger players learned the hard way it is better to laugh with richie... than at richie, or risk harrassment, extortion...

did hartline comment on whether martin was laughing and yukking it up about being extorted 100K?

Maybe...but it goes a long way towards what the team knew, or should have known, about the level of harassment. From the reports out of Miami - Martin seems to be the only one who thought things were out of control. And that may be fine for him - but he can't expect the team to be responsible if everyone else thought the actions were reasonable.

No kidding.

And, with these interviews from tonight crushing the narrative, I love all the new half-baked wag-the-dog explanations from people who seem to *absolutely insist* that Martin must be the victim and Incognito must be the villain.

 

[Sinn Fein]

I think Incognito is being unfairly scapegoated.

I don't think the voice mail is nearly as bad as it is being portrayed. And. while this may have been a hostile work environment for a fortune 500 boardroom, I don't think it constitutes a hostile work environment in an NFL locker room.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Bart Hubbuch ✔ @HubbuchNYP

Hartline is outraged because he says Martin was passing the voicemail around earlier in the year and laughing about it.

i'll preface this by saying that could be an example of mixed signals...

but people might respond to bullying in different ways... some might try to keep up a front that it didn't bother them in the hopes that bluster would defuse the situation... it doesn't necessarily mean they didn't feel bullied?

maybe if some people in the locker room had reacted differently to being presented the text/VMs by martin, and said, YIKES, richie is a bigger psycho than i realized, lets all go to the coach right now, especially the rookies, and complain about that mean bully guy that is on the players leadership council - WAIT!

or if several players in the locker room simultaneously burst into tears, he might have reacted differently...

but if others laughed at it, there would probably be peer pressure on him to laugh, too, or risk being soft, or prickly or a big weirdo (why even show it - maybe he wanted to get outside confirmation or validation of whether incognito had crossed the line or not, and really wasn't sure...

and possibly the rookies and younger players learned the hard way it is better to laugh with richie... than at richie, or risk harrassment, extortion...

did hartline comment on whether martin was laughing and yukking it up about being extorted 100K?

Maybe...but it goes a long way towards what the team knew, or should have known, about the level of harassment. From the reports out of Miami - Martin seems to be the only one who thought things were out of control. And that may be fine for him - but he can't expect the team to be responsible if everyone else thought the actions were reasonable.

if it came to a trial...

and other dolphin witnesses were trotted in front of a jury (lets say a diverse one), specifically the ones that saw/heard the n word in texts/VMs and laughed (most of the locker room?), and are questioned about it, both the african american and white players, and they started laughing hysterically on the stand during the trial about how funny it was that nutty, wacky incognito called martin a half breed, and they found this form of communication perfectly reasonable...

when you put it like that, are we sure a jury would interpret the text/VMs as reasonable, just because the locker room did?

everybody in the new orleans locker room may have been fine with the bounties, and thought they were reasonable... organizational beliefs, even in some cases pathological ones, tend to become entrenched and perpetuated, even though they may seem reasonable to those that espouse them...

 

[MoveToSkypager]

Joe Rose was on the nightly news on NBC, this was one of the lead in stories, he said that people would be shocked by about half the stuff that goes on in locker rooms compared to corporate America. Said they couldn't hire enough HR folks to handle all the situations if they tried.

That was a mistake.

Anyway, I think we might have an evil genius in Martin right now. His moves so far have been most impressive.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

Instant favorite for thread of the year. It's a helluva read if you start from the beginning.

I think you did a great job!

 

[Slapdash]

Omar Kelly twitter for those that want to follow along.

https://twitter.com/OmarKelly

'Fins beat writer?

Yes, he and Armando Salgeuro are the 2 big beat writers for the Phins, they are at practice everyday. Usually there are 20-25 member s of the press, and Monday they had 100 people show up, about 60 today, lot of attention for the wrong reasons.

Mando is always a good read IMO

 

[fatness]

Who was the rookie WR everyone busted on for not carry the veterans pads at camp? Seemed like he got crushed for standing up to the hazing.

Pretty sure it was Dez.

Right...the guy the Dolphins passed on because of character issues....

Was that before or after they signed Incognito and asked him to toughen up people?

 

[Faust]

Big-name attorney, Ted Wells, to lead NFL's Dolphins investigation Owner Stephen Ross breaks silence on Martin-Incognito situation

 

[Bob Magaw]

C'mon, you don't think Martin has some sissy in him? You think he handled this well?

So you either get in a physical altercation or you're a sissy?

Wooooo dude....you have to read my posts. I said "I'm not saying throw down with the maniac..."I mean none of us know how Martin tried to handle this previously, but start at standing up for yourself and telling the big dope "hey I'm here to play football, leave me out of your bull####". Or, if you're so terrified of the guy being dangerous like some others are suggesting (which I think is ridiculous), how about knocking on your coaches door, or general managers door?

If the guys first defense was to run home to mommy and daddy, then I don't care what any of you think, imo he's a sissy. A sissy that I do feel bad for, but a sissy nonetheless.

do you know he didn't go to the coaches... is the first instinct that martin is guilty until proven innocent, and sort the facts out later?

I'm just going off what I've seen and heard and read.

understood.impotant aspects of the case have only broken In the last 12 hours.

details are still emerging.

does it seem unreasonable to wait for more information before passing judgement on and name calling martin?

This doesn't go both ways?

Others are being irresponsible for not calling him a sissy when we don't know what happened?is that your point?

No. Incognito and Pouncey getting destroyed in here you're ok with?For the record I'm all for it. I have no problems name calling everyone involved at this point.

this was the post i was thinking of, early on, in which you seemed to imply being hypocritical...

did i misinterpret this?

all i said, AT THIS POINT, was maybe wait for more information to come in before impugning martin's character, and drawing the hard conclusion he handled it like a wussy...

i wasn't using loaded, disrespectful terms like bending, twisting...

after somebody first went on a rant about fake indignation, i did use the term self-righteous...

and you chimed in (paraphrasing)... "yeah, you are, too!" again, implying being hypocritical...

not all over the place. on point.

the difference is, i didn't accuse the poster of being fake, and question their very ability to offer a valid opinion at a fundamental level...

if he said fake and i replied by saying he is fake.. that would be hypocritical.

in several instances, you have said incognito sounds like a bad guy...

in at least one earlier exchange, i said something along those lines (affirming i think incognito sounds like a bad guy), not talking about martin at all, and you again responded with a... "well, obviously your mind is made up!" you said he was a bad guy... i echoed that sentiment (possibly in exchange with somebody else before your response)... but my mind was made up...

when in one of the first exchanges we had, i never said martin is categorically innocent and couldn't possibly be wrong... even if unintentional, that is a misrepresentation of my position... while i may think some people were wrongly impugning martin's character and seemed to be crucifying him as wussy prematurely (your stance was before more info came out from locker room, though even that may miss the mark about racism in some cases), that is not the same as my being unable to later, with more information, state that maybe he does share some culpability...

if you look at your first sentence in last of the nested series of exchange quotes above...

you take me to task for being OK that incognito is being "destroyed" in the thread...

but as you have said, you have consistently, from the beginning, been careful to note incognito is a bad guy...

were you "destroying" incognito? was that an instance of what you are complaining that i shouldn't have allowed...

this is the kind of thing i mean by being inconsistent... please note... not fake, bent, twisted... but inconsistent... and seemingly wrong, to take somebody to task for allowing him to be trashed... than trashing him?

in the last sentence of the above quotes, you convey the determination to name call martin (you have been consistent and true to your word here) because others are doing to it to incognito (neglecting to mention you have done it to incognito)... if others don't name call martin, they have already made up their minds, they are bent and twisted... you can't consider the possibility that they may have some real questions and concerns about organizational pathologies such as institutional bullying.*

* psychology/sociology experiments like the milgram experiment and stanford (or berkeley?) "guard/prisoner" experiments are relevant to the issue of how individuals in group settings might do crazy, even evil things they would not do as individuals, not in groups.

 

[Hoss Style]

For those that haven't actually heard the voice mail, here it is.

Many of us out here are interested in the truth, and hearing the voicemail helps. Also hearing Tannehill speak, seeing Hartline's response and looking at the situation as a whole should have changed people's view a bit from the time this thread started.

Listen to that voicemail again. I think many of us played sports here. I have to imagine that hearing that voicemail reminds you of that guy who used to be on your team. The guy who most knew wasn't the brightest bulb in the room, loved to start s*#t with anyone he didn't deem "cool" but was actually a good teammate because when you told Biff to do something then "Biff go do it!"

It sounds like Incognito is dumber than horses*#*t and did something stupid and got caught. Listening to the voicemail, though - I don't hear any malice. I hear a blockhead. I also hear the type of guy that would be a bully and take it overboard.

Threads like these often find people backing themselves into a corner with a specific opinion and then when information changes they are so entrenched that it really hurts their pride to change stances. If you're honest though, information (and opinions) are changing.

So far, it looks like both the guys, Martin and Incognito, have "issues", but at opposite ends of the spectrum. Incognito is probably a psycho bully based off of a LONG history of him since high school getting in trouble. If what has come out recently about Martin is true then he could have issues as well - or he could just be a conniving little pr*ck.

Either way, Incognito tried to pull his bully shtick on the wrong guy. He's gotten in trouble for it before, gotten kicked off teams - yet he never learned. Well, now there's another "lesson" coming his way - maybe the hardest lesson of all. What he did was wrong. Maybe it was done out of ignorance, but it doesn't matter.

It sounds like most of his teammates dealt with it and laughed it off. But maybe it wasn't directed at them. I bet if big-dumb-oaf-guy decided to focus on you with his bully shtick then it could be quite annoying. And he screwed with the wrong guy in Martin - whether he's the soft Shrek some think he is or a sneaky little rat like other's think, he's Incognito's next wake up call.

Step back and look at what's out there. No one knows what's happened, but if you peek out from behind your own agenda here, it sure looks like it could be not quite what it seemed to be early on.

So far it looks like Incognito may not be as bad as many think, Martin may not be as good as others think, and you can't ignore the history of both players here. Martin doesn't really have anything outstanding that's come out yet about his past, while Incognito is the essense of the "where there's smoke there's fire" maxim.

Should get interesting here.

 

[eurotrashman]

Bart Hubbuch ✔ @HubbuchNYP

Hartline is outraged because he says Martin was passing the voicemail around earlier in the year and laughing about it.

i'll preface this by saying that could be an example of mixed signals...

but people might respond to bullying in different ways... some might try to keep up a front that it didn't bother them in the hopes that bluster would defuse the situation... it doesn't necessarily mean they didn't feel bullied?

maybe if some people in the locker room had reacted differently to being presented the text/VMs by martin, and said, YIKES, richie is a bigger psycho than i realized, lets all go to the coach right now, especially the rookies, and complain about that mean bully guy that is on the players leadership council - WAIT!

or if several players in the locker room simultaneously burst into tears, he might have reacted differently...

but if others laughed at it, there would probably be peer pressure on him to laugh, too, or risk being soft, or prickly or a big weirdo (why even show it - maybe he wanted to get outside confirmation or validation of whether incognito had crossed the line or not, and really wasn't sure...

and possibly the rookies and younger players learned the hard way it is better to laugh with richie... than at richie, or risk harrassment, extortion...

did hartline comment on whether martin was laughing and yukking it up about being extorted 100K?

The lengths you're going to take every single piece of info and twist it and turn it to fit your view is getting ridiculous.

read the first sentence.

you have been contradictory at times, would be the most generous and sympathetic way to put it (paraphrasing upthread)...

"prefacing a post saying incognito was wrong... than proceeding to question martin... when somebody responds concurring that, yes, incognito does sound like he has done some wrong things, you state - HA! you are a hypocrite, for not acknowledging that maybe incognito is right... AFTER YOU JUST SAID HE IS WRONG!?!?!? that is the debate equivalent of crazymaking."

You're all over the place man. I've never called anyone a hypocrite.

I've been consistent the whole time on these 3 points:

- Incognito is a jackass

- I feel bad for Martin but he did not handle this well and he probably is a big wuss.

- Violence was not necessary

Your record is pretty clear around these parts, chief.

 

[fatness]

You can't tell Hannibal Lecter to toughen up a hemophiliac and then be surprised when there is blood.

 

[KCitons]

If I'm wrong about Martin being a victim in this, I'm ok with that and I will own being wrong.

I won't ever apologize for Incognito. As a Husker fan, I've earned the right to call this guy an ignorant bully.

The one thing that I am curious about is the Dolphin players that are backing Incognito. The text message and video is pretty clear where the N word was used. Being a white guy from middle America, I was taught that this word was demeaning and shouldn't be used under any circumstances. (it would also lead to me getting my ### kicked) I've seen a couple of reports that African American Dolphins players accepted Incognito as one of them. Is this what players like Sapp and Fletcher are more angered over? After all, we went through a big uproar over Riley Cooper a few months ago.

 

[JuniorNB]

THATS the real problem IMO, people wanting to change everyone and everything around them when it's none of their business.

That's how any and all social progress is made. The "keep out of my business" line of thinking can be used to used to perpetuate serious wrongs.

For instance, how do you think it worked out for 19th-century construction magnates who said "Screw hard hats and safety equipment! Labor is cheap, and I can just throw more bodies at my building no matter how many men are killed and maimed! You federal inspectors stay out of my business!"?

It's a violent sport played by violent men, and I like it the way it is.

It may be a violent sport, but not every man who plays it is violent. Some are actually cultured and mature. Some may even be a little soft. And those people shouldn't have to tolerate bullying on any level. Just like you don't on your work place.

My sentence right before the one you quoted said, "I'm not condoning Incognito's actions in any way". He took it above and beyond, and those that do should be dealt with internally. But for me, you or anyone else to scream CHANGE THE CULTURE OF LOCKER ROOMS from the mountain tops is silly IMO. Do you know who goes and gets coffee break on construction sites everyday? The apprentice(rookie) of the crew. Guess who buys coffee break on the first Friday of every month? Yep, the same guy. ZOMG CHANGE THE CULTURE OF CONSTRUCTION!!!

If the journeyman is also calling him a n*gger and telling him he wants to crap in his mouth, then yes, CHANGE THE CULTURE OF CONSTRUCTION.

 

[Dizzy]

Listened to a radio interview with John Beck on the ride home tonight... Beck knows Incognito very well and scoffed at the suggestion that Richie was a racist or a bully. Described him as a "good guy" with a "twisted sense of humor. Some guys got it, and some took it the wrong way"... clearly Beck sticking up for someone he considers a friend (talk about your odd couple), but speculated that Martin may have had issues with the NFL atmosphere as a whole, and not specifically with Incognito.

Funny when asked about the NFL locker room mentality, Beck said "well... it's a lot different than it was at BYU."

Yeah I bet!

 

[cobalt_27]

If I'm wrong about Martin being a victim in this, I'm ok with that and I will own being wrong.

I won't ever apologize for Incognito. As a Husker fan, I've earned the right to call this guy an ignorant bully.

The one thing that I am curious about is the Dolphin players that are backing Incognito. The text message and video is pretty clear where the N word was used. Being a white guy from middle America, I was taught that this word was demeaning and shouldn't be used under any circumstances. (it would also lead to me getting my ### kicked) I've seen a couple of reports that African American Dolphins players accepted Incognito as one of them. Is this what players like Sapp and Fletcher are more angered over? After all, we went through a big uproar over Riley Cooper a few months ago.

Excellent question.

 

[KCitons]

THATS the real problem IMO, people wanting to change everyone and everything around them when it's none of their business.

That's how any and all social progress is made. The "keep out of my business" line of thinking can be used to used to perpetuate serious wrongs.

For instance, how do you think it worked out for 19th-century construction magnates who said "Screw hard hats and safety equipment! Labor is cheap, and I can just throw more bodies at my building no matter how many men are killed and maimed! You federal inspectors stay out of my business!"?

It's a violent sport played by violent men, and I like it the way it is.

It may be a violent sport, but not every man who plays it is violent. Some are actually cultured and mature. Some may even be a little soft. And those people shouldn't have to tolerate bullying on any level. Just like you don't on your work place.

My sentence right before the one you quoted said, "I'm not condoning Incognito's actions in any way". He took it above and beyond, and those that do should be dealt with internally. But for me, you or anyone else to scream CHANGE THE CULTURE OF LOCKER ROOMS from the mountain tops is silly IMO.

Do you know who goes and gets coffee break on construction sites everyday? The apprentice(rookie) of the crew. Guess who buys coffee break on the first Friday of every month? Yep, the same guy. ZOMG CHANGE THE CULTURE OF CONSTRUCTION!!!

How long does the guy have to buy you coffee? Until another apprentice comes along? Then he feels the only way make things right is to force the next guy to buy the coffee.

What if one of the guys wants a bagel with his coffee? Does the apprentice pay for that? Or maybe a trip to Branson, and he wants the apprentice to pay for it?

 

[RBM]

Bob: In response to post 1591 (too big to quote)

What I meant was that while you were telling me to wait for more info before slandering Martin, you did not seem to think we should wait for more info before slandering Incognito.

And I was just saying I'm going to be consistent and slam both with the info I do have.

 

[fatness]

I just finished reading this old Dolphins topic, about the team's good judgment: Jeff Ireland asks Dez Bryant if his mom is a prostitute

Including this one: http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=530216&p=11787984

So this is the kid of a 15 year old crack dealing mom AND a pimp and he's acting THIS butt hurt over this question??? Something tells me he has heard wayyyyyy worse then this in his upbringing. Then to broadcast it....this will be said to him forever and he did it to himself. Also, for the people who continue to act as if is a regular job and job interview. What happens at your job if your co-workers curse at you and get into a scuffle? Sort of what happens at an NFL practice or is this a compare apples to apples where we see fit conversation?

 

[Sinn Fein]

Bottom of the Bench: The junior justice–the most recent appointee on the roster–has a special place in the hierarchy of the Supreme Court. According to tradition, they have the honor of taking notes, answering the telephone, opening the door and pouring their colleagues' coffee during private conferences. Justice Stephen Breyer spent 10 years on the lowest rung, performing the court's grunt work well into his late 60s, when Justice Samuel Alito finally assumed the junior justice mantle. In Breyer's own account, he once made a self-congratulatory–and self-deprecating–remark while serving coffee to Justice Antonin Scalia in 2005: "I've been doing this for 10 years. I've gotten pretty good at it, haven't I?" Scalia, who is rumored to wield the court's most caustic tongue, shot back, "No, you haven't."

Oh, noes. Who will think of the junior Supreme Court justices? We must change the culture and stop such tomfoolery immediately. Alert the press.

 

[KCitons]

Bottom of the Bench: The junior justice–the most recent appointee on the roster–has a special place in the hierarchy of the Supreme Court. According to tradition, they have the honor of taking notes, answering the telephone, opening the door and pouring their colleagues' coffee during private conferences. Justice Stephen Breyer spent 10 years on the lowest rung, performing the court's grunt work well into his late 60s, when Justice Samuel Alito finally assumed the junior justice mantle. In Breyer's own account, he once made a self-congratulatory–and self-deprecating–remark while serving coffee to Justice Antonin Scalia in 2005: "I've been doing this for 10 years. I've gotten pretty good at it, haven't I?" Scalia, who is rumored to wield the court's most caustic tongue, shot back, "No, you haven't."

Oh, noes. Who will think of the junior Supreme Court justices? We must change the culture and stop such tomfoolery immediately. Alert the press.

With the exception of pouring the other persons coffee, those are all things that would need to be handled by on of the other justices anyway and is probably part of the job description for most people. It's not like they are making him pay for dinners, trips, or jet skis.

Not really an apples to oranges comparison.

 

[Jewell]

For those that haven't actually heard the voice mail, here it is.

Many of us out here are interested in the truth, and hearing the voicemail helps. Also hearing Tannehill speak, seeing Hartline's response and looking at the situation as a whole should have changed people's view a bit from the time this thread started.

Listen to that voicemail again. I think many of us played sports here. I have to imagine that hearing that voicemail reminds you of that guy who used to be on your team. The guy who most knew wasn't the brightest bulb in the room, loved to start s*#t with anyone he didn't deem "cool" but was actually a good teammate because when you told Biff to do something then "Biff go do it!"

It sounds like Incognito is dumber than horses*#*t and did something stupid and got caught. Listening to the voicemail, though - I don't hear any malice. I hear a blockhead. I also hear the type of guy that would be a bully and take it overboard.

Threads like these often find people backing themselves into a corner with a specific opinion and then when information changes they are so entrenched that it really hurts their pride to change stances. If you're honest though, information (and opinions) are changing.

So far, it looks like both the guys, Martin and Incognito, have "issues", but at opposite ends of the spectrum. Incognito is probably a psycho bully based off of a LONG history of him since high school getting in trouble. If what has come out recently about Martin is true then he could have issues as well - or he could just be a conniving little pr*ck.

Either way, Incognito tried to pull his bully shtick on the wrong guy. He's gotten in trouble for it before, gotten kicked off teams - yet he never learned. Well, now there's another "lesson" coming his way - maybe the hardest lesson of all. What he did was wrong. Maybe it was done out of ignorance, but it doesn't matter.

It sounds like most of his teammates dealt with it and laughed it off. But maybe it wasn't directed at them. I bet if big-dumb-oaf-guy decided to focus on you with his bully shtick then it could be quite annoying. And he screwed with the wrong guy in Martin - whether he's the soft Shrek some think he is or a sneaky little rat like other's think, he's Incognito's next wake up call.

Step back and look at what's out there. No one knows what's happened, but if you peek out from behind your own agenda here, it sure looks like it could be not quite what it seemed to be early on.

So far it looks like Incognito may not be as bad as many think, Martin may not be as good as others think, and you can't ignore the history of both players here. Martin doesn't really have anything outstanding that's come out yet about his past, while Incognito is the essense of the "where there's smoke there's fire" maxim.

Should get interesting here.

Especially with the bolded. That's true of not just this thread, but many threads at Footballguys.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

For those that haven't actually heard the voice mail, here it is.

Many of us out here are interested in the truth, and hearing the voicemail helps. Also hearing Tannehill speak, seeing Hartline's response and looking at the situation as a whole should have changed people's view a bit from the time this thread started.

Listen to that voicemail again. I think many of us played sports here. I have to imagine that hearing that voicemail reminds you of that guy who used to be on your team. The guy who most knew wasn't the brightest bulb in the room, loved to start s*#t with anyone he didn't deem "cool" but was actually a good teammate because when you told Biff to do something then "Biff go do it!"

It sounded like he was reading what someone wrote for him to say, and for the first time.

I think I'm in the Martin = evil genius camp right now, but that could change in the next few minutes.

Nothing that I learn about Incognito will change my mind that he's a bad guy. His resume from Nebraska alone is enough for judgement on that.

I don't know if Martin is the best representative for being a victim, but if other #### I've read about guys being put in financial jeopardy is real, then this issue is legit no matter what Martin's situation was.

Plus, whenever traditionalists get mad, that means something good is happening.

 

[fantasycurse42]

My good friend was an all PAC 12 (PAC 10 then) o-tackle... Played a year on Balt and a year in buffalo. His opinion is as valid as anyone I know... Here is our text:

Me: thoughts on Miami?

Him: I know some guys that are friends with Incognito, there's no denying he is an ####### but all he was doing was calling Martin out for being an overpaid #####. This happens all the time on every team in the league. If he didn't call him a half , this story might not have made the news.

I then asked him thoughts on their futures.

Him: Martin will play on Miami, pretty much bc now they have to deal with this ####. There isnt a GM that will take a regular player that airs dirty laundry to the press and not the team. Incognito will not play this season, but there will be quite a few teams inquire about his services next year. He's got a few good years left.

 

[Jewell]

Plus, whenever traditionalists get mad, that means something good is happening.

These skyrocketing illegitimacy and single parent home rates are great!!! They really show those traditionalists who think both parents should be involved in the kids life how wrong they are.

 

[Dizzy]

For those that haven't actually heard the voice mail, here it is.

Many of us out here are interested in the truth, and hearing the voicemail helps. Also hearing Tannehill speak, seeing Hartline's response and looking at the situation as a whole should have changed people's view a bit from the time this thread started.

Listen to that voicemail again. I think many of us played sports here. I have to imagine that hearing that voicemail reminds you of that guy who used to be on your team. The guy who most knew wasn't the brightest bulb in the room, loved to start s*#t with anyone he didn't deem "cool" but was actually a good teammate because when you told Biff to do something then "Biff go do it!"

It sounded like he was reading what someone wrote for him to say, and for the first time.

I think I'm in the Martin = evil genius camp right now, but that could change in the next few minutes.

Nothing that I learn about Incognito will change my mind that he's a bad guy. His resume from Nebraska alone is enough for judgement on that.

I don't know if Martin is the best representative for being a victim, but if other #### I've read about guys being put in financial jeopardy is real, then this issue is legit no matter what Martin's situation was.

Plus, whenever traditionalists get mad, that means something good is happening.

I think you're spot on here Skypager. Sounds like a guy that lost a bet and had to make the call... especially towards the end... very monotone with weird pauses.

That would also support the reports that he shared the recording with others and laughed about it.

 

[Bob Magaw]

For those that haven't actually heard the voice mail, here it is.

Many of us out here are interested in the truth, and hearing the voicemail helps. Also hearing Tannehill speak, seeing Hartline's response and looking at the situation as a whole should have changed people's view a bit from the time this thread started.

Listen to that voicemail again. I think many of us played sports here. I have to imagine that hearing that voicemail reminds you of that guy who used to be on your team. The guy who most knew wasn't the brightest bulb in the room, loved to start s*#t with anyone he didn't deem "cool" but was actually a good teammate because when you told Biff to do something then "Biff go do it!"

It sounds like Incognito is dumber than horses*#*t and did something stupid and got caught. Listening to the voicemail, though - I don't hear any malice. I hear a blockhead. I also hear the type of guy that would be a bully and take it overboard.

Threads like these often find people backing themselves into a corner with a specific opinion and then when information changes they are so entrenched that it really hurts their pride to change stances. If you're honest though, information (and opinions) are changing.

So far, it looks like both the guys, Martin and Incognito, have "issues", but at opposite ends of the spectrum. Incognito is probably a psycho bully based off of a LONG history of him since high school getting in trouble. If what has come out recently about Martin is true then he could have issues as well - or he could just be a conniving little pr*ck.

Either way, Incognito tried to pull his bully shtick on the wrong guy. He's gotten in trouble for it before, gotten kicked off teams - yet he never learned. Well, now there's another "lesson" coming his way - maybe the hardest lesson of all. What he did was wrong. Maybe it was done out of ignorance, but it doesn't matter.

It sounds like most of his teammates dealt with it and laughed it off. But maybe it wasn't directed at them. I bet if big-dumb-oaf-guy decided to focus on you with his bully shtick then it could be quite annoying. And he screwed with the wrong guy in Martin - whether he's the soft Shrek some think he is or a sneaky little rat like other's think, he's Incognito's next wake up call.

Step back and look at what's out there. No one knows what's happened, but if you peek out from behind your own agenda here, it sure looks like it could be not quite what it seemed to be early on.

So far it looks like Incognito may not be as bad as many think, Martin may not be as good as others think, and you can't ignore the history of both players here. Martin doesn't really have anything outstanding that's come out yet about his past, while Incognito is the essense of the "where there's smoke there's fire" maxim.

Should get interesting here.

that seems like a reasonable and impartial summing up...

it is a good reminder that, if incognito is kicked off the dolphins, it will be after also being kicked off nebraska and oregon in college and STL in the pros... so he has a known history...

its hard to see how martin has as checkered a past and resume?

but as you said, new facts come to light...

in an earlier post, i intended (meaning did purposefully, not meant to) to first say that martin may have sent mixed signals...

after trying to think of non-sinister reasons for martin's behavior, i wasn't endorsing the idea it is impossible he could share culpability, though it may have seemed that way due to the emphasis...

it just didn't seem necessary to elaborate that laughing at the n word may have meant he didn't mind... to me, that falls into the category of information everybody already possesses... of course, that COULD be damaging...

i was just trying to think if it were possible that he could have been surprised by the reaction of laughter, and went along with it... but still harbored resentment on the inside, which others may not have known...

to extend that, if he even thought of showing others within the locker room similar things in the future, but had already been met with laughter the first time... would he be more or less likely to follow up? yet for some, his not following up is treated as evidence of sinister motives?

i can conceive of the possibility that martin had as much or more culpability than incognito, when more facts come to light, we are awaiting independent consul ruling, though in the earlier case of new orleans, there was found to be a pattern of closing ranks, a culture of silence and obstructing the investigation (all for obvious reasons probably not necessary to get into in this context)... but because martin doesn't have as disturbing and lengthy a history of being a problem as incognito, i have not emphasized trying to exonerate incognito during the dialogue... until i'm more convinced martin engaged in wrong doing (made up bullying, he doesn't really believe it, just being vindictive and taking out revenge on incognito for "petty" frustrations like calling him a half breed and saying he would slap the #### out of his mother, etc.), i'm not comfortable villifying or demonizing him...

maybe it seems like i am doing that to incognito, but it is just stating a fact that there is a pattern of instability, volatile behavior and not being accountable in incognito's background (like you said, he has been kicked off many teams, i'm not making this stuff up or speculating about his past)... his peers said he was the dirtiest player in the NFL... in the absence of that kind of pattern in martin's background (getting kicked off of multiple teams), i'd prefer to wait before ascribing sinister motives to martin... but it doesn't mean i never will, presented with additional evidence and having time to think about it...

* obviously everybody looks at the world and responds to it from their unique background and history that shaped them... i haven't listened to the message yet, but will next... but i do know of a case of former co-workers who were subjected to several "joking" death threats by another co-worker... like coming back later and shooting people, ha ha kind of thing (it was a real hoot and rib tickler, i'm sure they got a lot of giggles out of it)... they did seem to be in a joking manner and context based on the description... but they weren't amused... and the "joke" death threats might have taken on a different meaning and concern when the individual in question was later fired (not for that).

** after listening to it, it doesn't sound like it was meant as a death threat (though see the caveat immediately above)... but by mentioning it along with the racist remarks, i'm not prepared to say martin has no possible cause to have been bothered by it... and i still have grave doubts (per the hilarious earlier observation by another poster upthread that incognito may not take constructive criticism well) that if martin had earlier mentioned that to incognito, it would have elicited a response from incognito - gee, sorry pal, i'll never do it again...

i get that it looks strange to others that martin, as far as the locker room was concerned, not only didn't come across as a bitter enemy of incognito, but actually good friends... but some rookies might not like paying $10-30K dinner bills at a steakhouse (order everybody everything on the menu, and the most expensive champagne in the cellar around the table!)... but they do it... maybe they even smile and laugh about it... that may not mean they think of the ringleaders as buddies... but maybe it is easier for some to go along than get ostracized and terrorized further by the vets (hard to defend leaf, but when he complained to management about seau stealing his credit card and charging a hugely expensive dinner he didn't even go to, seau retaliated by decleating him after an INT - what if he had his ACL blown out?)...

 

[fruity pebbles]

For those that haven't actually heard the voice mail, here it is.

Many of us out here are interested in the truth, and hearing the voicemail helps. Also hearing Tannehill speak, seeing Hartline's response and looking at the situation as a whole should have changed people's view a bit from the time this thread started.

Listen to that voicemail again. I think many of us played sports here. I have to imagine that hearing that voicemail reminds you of that guy who used to be on your team. The guy who most knew wasn't the brightest bulb in the room, loved to start s*#t with anyone he didn't deem "cool" but was actually a good teammate because when you told Biff to do something then "Biff go do it!"

It sounds like Incognito is dumber than horses*#*t and did something stupid and got caught. Listening to the voicemail, though - I don't hear any malice. I hear a blockhead. I also hear the type of guy that would be a bully and take it overboard.

Threads like these often find people backing themselves into a corner with a specific opinion and then when information changes they are so entrenched that it really hurts their pride to change stances. If you're honest though, information (and opinions) are changing.

So far, it looks like both the guys, Martin and Incognito, have "issues", but at opposite ends of the spectrum. Incognito is probably a psycho bully based off of a LONG history of him since high school getting in trouble. If what has come out recently about Martin is true then he could have issues as well - or he could just be a conniving little pr*ck.

Either way, Incognito tried to pull his bully shtick on the wrong guy. He's gotten in trouble for it before, gotten kicked off teams - yet he never learned. Well, now there's another "lesson" coming his way - maybe the hardest lesson of all. What he did was wrong. Maybe it was done out of ignorance, but it doesn't matter.

It sounds like most of his teammates dealt with it and laughed it off. But maybe it wasn't directed at them. I bet if big-dumb-oaf-guy decided to focus on you with his bully shtick then it could be quite annoying. And he screwed with the wrong guy in Martin - whether he's the soft Shrek some think he is or a sneaky little rat like other's think, he's Incognito's next wake up call.

Step back and look at what's out there. No one knows what's happened, but if you peek out from behind your own agenda here, it sure looks like it could be not quite what it seemed to be early on.

So far it looks like Incognito may not be as bad as many think, Martin may not be as good as others think, and you can't ignore the history of both players here. Martin doesn't really have anything outstanding that's come out yet about his past, while Incognito is the essense of the "where there's smoke there's fire" maxim.

Should get interesting here.

that seems like a reasonable and impartial summing up...

it is a good reminder that, if incognito is kicked off the dolphins, it will be after also being kicked off nebraska and oregon in college and STL in the pros... so he has a known history...

its hard to see how martin has as checkered a past and resume?

but as you said, new facts come to light...

in an earlier post, i intended (meaning did purposefully, not meant to) to first say that martin may have sent mixed signals...

after trying to think of non-sinister reasons for martin's behavior, i wasn't endorsing the idea it is impossible he could share culpability, though it may have seemed that way due to the emphasis...

it just didn't seem necessary to elaborate that laughing at the n word may have meant he didn't mind... to me, that falls into the catefory of information everybody already possesses... of course, that COULD be damaging...

i was just trying to think if it were possible that he could have been surprised by the reaction of laughter, and went along with it... but still harbored resentment on the inside, which others may not have known...

to extend that, if he even thought of showing others within the locker room similar things in the future, but had already been met with laughter the first time... would he be more or less likely to follow up? yet for some, his not following up is treated as evidence of sinister motives?

i can conceive of the possibility that martin had as much or more culpability than incognito, when more facts come to light, we are awaiting independent consul ruling, though in the earlier case of new orleans, there was found to be a pattern of closing ranks, a culture of silence and obstructing the investigation (all for obvious reasons probably not necessary to get into in this context)... but because martin doesn't have as disturbing and lengthy a history of being a problem as incognito, i have not emphasized trying to exonerate incognito during the dialogue... until i'm more convinced martin engaged in wrong doing (made up bullying, he doesn't really believe it, just being vindictive and taking out revenge on incognito for "petty" frustrations like calling him a half breed and saying he would slap the #### out of his mother, etc.), i'm not comfortable villifying or demonizing him...

maybe it seems like i am doing that to incognito, but it is just stating a fact that there is a pattern of instability, volatile behavior and not being accountable in incognito's background (like you said, he has been kicked off many teams, i'm not making this stuff up or speculating about his past)... his peers said he was the dirtiest player in the NFL... in the absence of that kind of pattern in martin's background (getting kicked off of multiple teams), i'd prefer to wait before ascribing sinister motives to martin... but it doesn't mean i never will, presented with additional evidence and having time to think about it...

* obviously everybody looks at the world and responds to it from their unique background and history that shaped them... i haven't listened to the message yet, but will next... but i do know of a case of former co-workers who were subjected to several "joking" death threats by another co-worker... like coming back later and shooting people, ha ha kind of thing... they did seem to be in a joking manner and context based on the description... but they weren't amused... and the "joke" death threats might have taken on a different meaning and concern when the individual in question was later fired (not for that).

nice backpedal

 

[Doug B]

nice backpedal

It's OK to change opinions once new info comes out or existing info gets refined. Why must anyone be permanently saddled with their first impression on a topic?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

nice backpedal

It's OK to change opinions once new info comes out or existing info gets refined. Why must anyone be permanently saddled with their first impression on a topic?

Agreed, I change my opinions on players, teams, events, all the time as new information surfaces, or new Sundays come to pass. You can't stay locked into your beliefs forever and ever, you'll never grow.

 

[Doug B]

though in the earlier case of new orleans, there was found to be a pattern of closing ranks, a culture of silence and obstructing the investigation (all for obvious reasons probably not necessary to get into in this context)...

All I'm really seeing the Miami players doing now is circling the wagons. I'm open to the idea that all is not as it seems, and that more shoes are going to drop. At the same time, I'm not inclined to accept other Dolphins' accounts at face value.

Still remember Drew Brees vehemently defending his Saints teammates against Bountygate. What's Tannehill saying now that's any different?

 

[fruity pebbles]

nice backpedal

It's OK to change opinions once new info comes out or existing info gets refined. Why must anyone be permanently saddled with their first impression on a topic?

Its not the change of opinion. Its the holier than thou attitude of a few days ago where anyone wanting more info before castrating Incognito or declaring Martin a poor helpless victim were vilified.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

For those that haven't actually heard the voice mail, here it is.

Many of us out here are interested in the truth, and hearing the voicemail helps. Also hearing Tannehill speak, seeing Hartline's response and looking at the situation as a whole should have changed people's view a bit from the time this thread started.

Listen to that voicemail again. I think many of us played sports here. I have to imagine that hearing that voicemail reminds you of that guy who used to be on your team. The guy who most knew wasn't the brightest bulb in the room, loved to start s*#t with anyone he didn't deem "cool" but was actually a good teammate because when you told Biff to do something then "Biff go do it!"

It sounded like he was reading what someone wrote for him to say, and for the first time.

I think I'm in the Martin = evil genius camp right now, but that could change in the next few minutes.

Nothing that I learn about Incognito will change my mind that he's a bad guy. His resume from Nebraska alone is enough for judgement on that.

I don't know if Martin is the best representative for being a victim, but if other #### I've read about guys being put in financial jeopardy is real, then this issue is legit no matter what Martin's situation was.

Plus, whenever traditionalists get mad, that means something good is happening.

I think you're spot on here Skypager. Sounds like a guy that lost a bet and had to make the call... especially towards the end... very monotone with weird pauses.

That would also support the reports that he shared the recording with others and laughed about it.

That laugh from Incognito sounded like he read it the first time and he couldn't believe he was going to say it. Think about this dude... what if Martin wrote that down and had Incognito call him and leave it on his VM?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

though in the earlier case of new orleans, there was found to be a pattern of closing ranks, a culture of silence and obstructing the investigation (all for obvious reasons probably not necessary to get into in this context)...

All I'm really seeing the Miami players doing now is circling the wagons. I'm open to the idea that all is not as it seems, and that more shoes are going to drop. At the same time, I'm not inclined to accept other Dolphins' accounts at face value.

Still remember Drew Brees vehemently defending his Saints teammates against Bountygate. What's Tannehill saying now that's any different?

Excellent DB but Brees was even more passionate about it. Tannehill is snickering and grinning like we're all crazy. I think these 2 situations are different. First, if we find out that coaches told Richie to toughen him up and if Martin was joking about those texts, and if Martin was skipping those OTAs just because he felt like it, this thing is gonna take a whole new turn IMO.

Imagine in a week we find out that perhaps Martin was overly sensitive but because he went public with everything Goodell has to drop the hammer on Miami and it costs them draft picks...what do you think the fan base down here is gonna do when the major leak on the OL was playing poorly and took a former Pro Bowl LG with him? Now maybe it's even worse than Martin first described but there are an awful lot of Miami Dolphins that are singing a much different tune.

I guess we'll wait and see but the fans are the ones that are really gonna lose here and I think Martin would be wise to ask for a trade or a release and $$$ settlement ASAP so we can all move on.He will never wear a Miami Dolphins uniform and I can't imagine the fans in Dolphins Stadium cheering him on.

We'll see.