Dolphin Players bullied Jonathan Martin, Richie Incognito SUSPENDED (2 Viewers)

[Dizzy]

For those that haven't actually heard the voice mail, here it is.

Many of us out here are interested in the truth, and hearing the voicemail helps. Also hearing Tannehill speak, seeing Hartline's response and looking at the situation as a whole should have changed people's view a bit from the time this thread started.

Listen to that voicemail again. I think many of us played sports here. I have to imagine that hearing that voicemail reminds you of that guy who used to be on your team. The guy who most knew wasn't the brightest bulb in the room, loved to start s*#t with anyone he didn't deem "cool" but was actually a good teammate because when you told Biff to do something then "Biff go do it!"

It sounded like he was reading what someone wrote for him to say, and for the first time.

I think I'm in the Martin = evil genius camp right now, but that could change in the next few minutes.

Nothing that I learn about Incognito will change my mind that he's a bad guy. His resume from Nebraska alone is enough for judgement on that.

I don't know if Martin is the best representative for being a victim, but if other #### I've read about guys being put in financial jeopardy is real, then this issue is legit no matter what Martin's situation was.

Plus, whenever traditionalists get mad, that means something good is happening.

I think you're spot on here Skypager. Sounds like a guy that lost a bet and had to make the call... especially towards the end... very monotone with weird pauses.

That would also support the reports that he shared the recording with others and laughed about it.

That laugh from Incognito sounded like he read it the first time and he couldn't believe he was going to say it. Think about this dude... what if Martin wrote that down and had Incognito call him and leave it on his VM?

Nothing would surprise me at this point.

And nothing about that VM sounded natural... quite the opposite. I wonder how many people were in the room as he was leaving the message.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Bob: In response to post 1591 (too big to quote)

What I meant was that while you were telling me to wait for more info before slandering Martin, you did not seem to think we should wait for more info before slandering Incognito.

And I was just saying I'm going to be consistent and slam both with the info I do have.

RBM: you admitted to repeatedly calling incognito a jackass...

this wasn't a particularly controversial statement, and you presumably thought it was a reasonable belief, based on his history and background...

but you also wanted to impugn martin's character, before similar background facts about his history were known...

when i later stated something in effect agreeing with you about incognito (even if not in direct response to you - i wasn't saying anything differently from you - he has a scary history), from reading his background the same way you were (or anybody could), but than did not go as far as you by impugning martin's character ahead of more information, because he DOES NOT have as troubling or disturbing a background or history (can you say he does?), you stated i was wrong (and implied hypoctical) for allowing incognito "destroying" to go unchecked in the thread... interesting since that would make you guilty of exactly what you were questioning me about allowing... that is what i meant about being inconsistent and crazymaking debating.

for an analogy, if our roles were reversed, and I had said martin was a bad guy, but maybe incognito is, too, and you elsewhere stated martin was a bad guy, but didn't say anything about incognito, and i criticized you for saying martin was a bad guy, and not only that, but you were wrong for allowing criticisms of martin to go unchecked in the thread (even though i had earlier criticized incognito and said he was a bad guy!), that would be inconsistent. but that is what you have done.

you also implied that because i didn't agree with you that it would be a sign of greater "fairness", balance and impartiality for me to impugn martin's character ahead of more information like you were... THOUGH INCOGNITO'S BACKGROUND AS A TROUBLEMAKER IS FAR MORE ESTABLISHED THAN MARTIN... that i was being a hypocrite...

you also stated the intent to name call both sides equally (and you have, so that is consistent)... i think it was warranted to state the obvious that incognito has a history... he does... it isn't really in dispute... martin doesn't have any semblance, remotely like incognito's history... look, if you want to jump in and assume the worst about martin without the same kind of background as incognito, you can do that... and you are also subject to being asked about it...

i wasn't exactly being disrespectful, or berating you or biting your head off at the beginning in suggesting that maybe martin was more deserving of the benefit of the doubt than incognito... i didn't use disrespectful language like bent or twisted to characterize your take (maybe inconsistent was the extent of the criticism, and in those instances, i've tried to show how and why)...

 

[Tau837]

I think Dizzy was a juror in the Nicole Simpson murder trial.

Good example. How much sleep did you lose over that one?

None? Yeah, I thought so.

Dude, being a poster here requires full speed posts and sacrificing your future reputation for the love of the message board... this alone calls for a mindset that .000001% of the public never has to deal with.

Well said

 

[RBM]

Bob: In response to post 1591 (too big to quote)

What I meant was that while you were telling me to wait for more info before slandering Martin, you did not seem to think we should wait for more info before slandering Incognito.

And I was just saying I'm going to be consistent and slam both with the info I do have.

when i later stated something in effect agreeing with you about incognito (even if not in direct response to you - i wasn't saying anything differently from you - he has a scary history), from reading his background the same way you were (or anybody could), but than did not go as far as you by impugning martin's character ahead of more information, because he DOES NOT have as troubling or disturbing a background or history (can you say he does?), you stated i was wrong (and implied hypoctical) for allowing incognito "destroying" to go unchecked in the thread... interesting since that would make you guilty of exactly what you were questioning me about allowing... that is what i meant about being inconsistent and crazymaking debating.

Ok this is getting confusing. But I think the issue here is that I wasn't taking into account past history, I was focusing solely on this particular story. Based on this incident, not taking into account past history, I thought we had enough info to impugn both.

I CAN see though that if we WERE taking past history into account (which I guess you were), and thinking we did not have enough info on this particular story to pass judgement, you could let slandering of Incognito slide but not Martin. Understood.

 

[Bob Magaw]

thank you for that, RBM...

some of what i wrote above i may not have found necessary if i had seen this response first...

i always view communication as a two part process... i apologize for whatever part my denseness has played in earlier failing to communicate better with you...

yeah, the thought you just explained ran across my mind and had occurred to me it might be the source of confusion and talking across each other...

communication isn't always simple, and we were dealing with overlapping time frames...

where i was coming from, is because past events often shed light on the present (like if a previously convicted murderer is hauled into the police station for questioning about another murder investigation he is a suspect in?), incognito seemed to me more suspect than martin...

 

[Bob Magaw]

though in the earlier case of new orleans, there was found to be a pattern of closing ranks, a culture of silence and obstructing the investigation (all for obvious reasons probably not necessary to get into in this context)...

All I'm really seeing the Miami players doing now is circling the wagons. I'm open to the idea that all is not as it seems, and that more shoes are going to drop. At the same time, I'm not inclined to accept other Dolphins' accounts at face value.

Still remember Drew Brees vehemently defending his Saints teammates against Bountygate. What's Tannehill saying now that's any different?

Excellent DB but Brees was even more passionate about it. Tannehill is snickering and grinning like we're all crazy. I think these 2 situations are different. First, if we find out that coaches told Richie to toughen him up and if Martin was joking about those texts, and if Martin was skipping those OTAs just because he felt like it, this thing is gonna take a whole new turn IMO. Imagine in a week we find out that perhaps Martin was overly sensitive but because he went public with everything Goodell has to drop the hammer on Miami and it costs them draft picks...what do you think the fan base down here is gonna do when the major leak on the OL was playing poorly and took a former Pro Bowl LG with him? Now maybe it's even worse than Martin first described but there are an awful lot of Miami Dolphins that are singing a much different tune.

I guess we'll wait and see but the fans are the ones that are really gonna lose here and I think Martin would be wise to ask for a trade or a release and $$$ settlement ASAP so we can all move on.He will never wear a Miami Dolphins uniform and I can't imagine the fans in Dolphins Stadium cheering him on.

We'll see.

another way this could be different...and why MIA may not get draft choice sanctions though NO did...

1 - bounties on players from other teams... hurt (or could have) players from other teams... in this case the disfunction was internal, at worst MIA was hurting themselves (regardless of how the distribution of blame for incognito and martin is calculated by the league's independent consul at the end of the investigation)...

2 - if NO had come clean earlier as an organization, at the highest levels, they possibly could have avoided the severity of some of the worst team and player sanctions... i'm pretty sure the league specifically mentioned the magnitude of the punishment was in part due to the pattern of not only repeated offenses, but repeated obstruction of the investigation... the more transparent ireland and philbin on down through the organization are in the investigation, less likely they incur a similar punishment...

though if they did something wrong, they may be less incentivized to be transparent... hypothetically, if ireland and philbin internally uncover the OL coach knew something about incognito's role in harassing martin (if in fact that happened) and didn't share it with others, they would be advised to not hide this.

 

[mike9289]

I think if you put a lie detector on Incognito 2 weeks ago and asked if he considered Martin a friend he would say yes. Ask him if Martin was bothered by the stuff he did and he would say no. Is Incognito that clueless, sadly yes he is. Think about it. If anybody ever offended him he would blow sky high in anger. Martin never got mad at him so in Incognito's mind, Martin didn't get mad so it must be OK. Martin on the other hand was very upset and offended but he kept everything inside. That's what causes the bullying in this world. The insensitivity of a neanthathal like Incognito who couldn't see that he was crushing the other sensitive person. Funny part is, I bet Incognito was shocked when Martin threw that tray down. First time he probably saw the anger come out of Martin.

Maybe I'm completely off base but if I'm on to something, this is the same stuff that happens with 2 classmates, 2 co-workers, 2 teammates. It isn't a locker room culture thing. Its a society thing and some people have taken their own lives in such a situation.

Going to throw this out there again. In light of new evidence (Tanny interview, etc), was I on the right track?

 

[Bob Magaw]

If Martin doesn't have proof he talked to Philbin about this, his settlement will be in the six figure range

Edit to add : ESPN reporting that Martin did not report the alleged behavior to Philbin

So he kept it bottled up and then just ran home to tell mommy and daddy lawyer. How can anyone defend that? He's a 24 yr old man, gee whiz. If he's not wired to confront the ox Incognito, at least attempt to keep it in house before you run home.-disclaimer- I feel bad for Martin and what he had to deal with and think Incognito is a piece of garbage -disclaimer-

not picking on you, RBM (i was sincere in accepting your earlier explanation for our miscommunication, and taking my share of responsibility for it), but I was looking back at the thread for something else, and this post caught my eye in the context of some of the latest allegations among the seemingly several new twists and turns the case takes on a daily basis*...

there were several times, early in the thread, where you stated Martin was a wussy and handled things wrong by, among other things, not attempting to go to the HC or GM first... you were asked, how do know he didn't? THAT was the kind of critical information it seemed to me, AT A MINIMUM, we should try and pin down better before impugning Martin's character...

the latest reports are, martin asked his agent to pass the grievance along to ireland... the GM allegedly advised martin, through the intermediary of his agent, that he should use violence to respond to incognito...

so given what you wrote quoted above, and again, I wasn't specifically looking for it, it seemed especially germane to the latest allegations...

now maybe this will turn into a case of ireland's word against that of martin's agent... maybe the latter is lying and this position is completely fabricated... but IF true (and the independent consul finds the version of martin's agent more credible than that of ireland), the GM sounds like an excellent candidate to be the first domino to fall in the wider investigation of what culpability the organization might have had in enabling a culture of harrassment that could have contributed to the conflict between incognito and martin.

it was precisely because i didn't think we had any idea at the time that martin HADN'T attempted to go through the proper channels first (which you seemed to be asuming) that i advocated maybe finding out more about that first before impugning martin's character.

i speculated about reasons why martin may not have felt comfortable doing this if it was a disfunctional organization, but i never thought early on we knew he hadn't make such an attempt.

if the allegations are true, it sounds like he did try exactly this... and was rebuffed by an incredibly unprofessional response from an organizational representative about as close to the apex as possible, short of the owner.

and you already agreed above, in advance, that martin should not have felt forced to use violence as a means of conflict resolution with a neanderthal.

* http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/06/sources-ireland-suggested-that-martin-confront-incognito-physically/

 

[Hoss Style]

I don't see anything really "new" about this while browsing tonight, but there is an interview with Warren Sapp yesterday about a time he played against Incognito and Incognito tried to goad Sapp into a fight:

Warren Sapp Interview

After listening to the interview, it strengthens two thoughts for me:

1) Incognito is an incredible bully/moron/what-ever-descriptor-you-want-to-use

and

2) Incognito's behavior isn't that uncommon. Listen to Sapp laugh when asked if it bothered him and then he says "C'mon, in a football game?"

 

[Phenix]

My good friend was an all PAC 12 (PAC 10 then) o-tackle... Played a year on Balt and a year in buffalo. His opinion is as valid as anyone I know... Here is our text:

Me: thoughts on Miami?

Him: I know some guys that are friends with Incognito, there's no denying he is an ####### but all he was doing was calling Martin out for being an overpaid #####. This happens all the time on every team in the league. If he didn't call him a half ######, this story might not have made the news.

I then asked him thoughts on their futures.

Him: Martin will play on Miami, pretty much bc now they have to deal with this ####. There isnt a GM that will take a regular player that airs dirty laundry to the press and not the team. Incognito will not play this season, but there will be quite a few teams inquire about his services next year. He's got a few good years left.

Shows how clueless athletes are. You think an NFL team will warrant the distraction of Incognito and what he will bring after this?

Oh, Athletes always expect no repercussions. I don't think a team can sign him, if they do it will have to be after some time passes, by then his career will be over.

 

[Phenix]

I just finished reading this old Dolphins topic, about the team's good judgment: Jeff Ireland asks Dez Bryant if his mom is a prostitute

Including this one: http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=530216&p=11787984

So this is the kid of a 15 year old crack dealing mom AND a pimp and he's acting THIS butt hurt over this question??? Something tells me he has heard wayyyyyy worse then this in his upbringing. Then to broadcast it....this will be said to him forever and he did it to himself. Also, for the people who continue to act as if is a regular job and job interview. What happens at your job if your co-workers curse at you and get into a scuffle? Sort of what happens at an NFL practice or is this a compare apples to apples where we see fit conversation?

Ireland and Philbin will be gone after this year if not sooner. Rightfully so. Ireland is not even a good GM, you can tell from the coach he chooses, money he spends with the horrible inept teams he puts together. 60 mill for Wallace? He should of been fired for that alone. Philbin cant even handle this locker room, he shouldn't coach at the high school level.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Just get the feeling that martin isn't as pure as the driven snow as the media is currently trying to portray for their story.

this is an earlier post i responded to...

so not quite as represented*, that you were the voice of reason in advocating more time for both sides (incognito AND martin) before forming premature judgements based on incompete information, and you weren't guilty of vilifying or demonizing EITHER side...

i'll give you that you later mentioned thinking incognito was on the psycho end of the spectrum, but not as guilty as the media was portraying him, that is consistent... i agree with the possible psycho end of the spectrum part... for the rest, maybe he isn't as guilty as the media portrays, maybe he is... but he does have a KNOWN background and history, which extends far further back than the matter of days since this story broke to try and get a comparable handle on martin's psyche, interpersonal relations skills and ability to play nice with others...

imo, we didn't have the mountain of evidence and weight of history that martin doesn't play nice with others, that we do with incognito...

i didn't think we had as extensive a background and history of martin being a troublemaker at previous stops as we did with incognito, which is why i advocated giving more time on martin...

incognito was kicked off of nebraska and oregon in college, STL, and possibly soon MIA, too, in the NFL... as near as i can tell, if he is booted from the dolphins, BUF will be the only team among five in college and the NFL since high school he won't have been kicked off the roster...

machete kills... its what he does... incognito gets kicked off of teams... its what HE does...

in the absence of the same kind of habitual and chronic troublemaker resume by martin, i didn't understand the need to possibly impugn martin's character prematurely...

but yet you did seem to be making judgements about martin, AHEAD of more information, in the quote above...

and in the below quote, you seem to be advocating not being neutral with martin... and that others in the thread were wrong in questioning your impugning of his character as premature, and seeming formation of a preliminary judgement that he probably had some level of guilt, that would only be dislodged if such exculpatory evidence were to come to light later...

yes, you could say i was being contradictory by not being as neutral with incognito, but i have already explained why... you yourself called incognito on the psycho end of the spectrum... we don't have comparable cause, based on martin's LONG TERM background and history, to suspect him of instigating the trouble, and to treat him as guilty until proven innocent, instead of innocent until proven guilty (how is that holier than thou?)... among other things, he hasn't been kicked off (or about to be) basically every team he has ever played for...

i never said it is impossible that evidence couldn't come to light that might put martin in the wrong... all along, i've just said martin is more deserving of the benefit of the doubt... if more definitive and conclusive evidence than we have now (and you had even less at the time you posted above quote) surfaces, obviously martin should no longer be given the benefit of the doubt...

* from post 1614...

"Its not the change of opinion. Its the holier than thou attitude of a few days ago where anyone wanting more info before castrating Incognito or declaring Martin a poor helpless victim were vilified."

 

[Billy Bats]

THATS the real problem IMO, people wanting to change everyone and everything around them when it's none of their business.

That's how any and all social progress is made. The "keep out of my business" line of thinking can be used to used to perpetuate serious wrongs.

For instance, how do you think it worked out for 19th-century construction magnates who said "Screw hard hats and safety equipment! Labor is cheap, and I can just throw more bodies at my building no matter how many men are killed and maimed! You federal inspectors stay out of my business!"?

It's a violent sport played by violent men, and I like it the way it is.

It may be a violent sport, but not every man who plays it is violent. Some are actually cultured and mature. Some may even be a little soft. And those people shouldn't have to tolerate bullying on any level. Just like you don't on your work place.

My sentence right before the one you quoted said, "I'm not condoning Incognito's actions in any way". He took it above and beyond, and those that do should be dealt with internally. But for me, you or anyone else to scream CHANGE THE CULTURE OF LOCKER ROOMS from the mountain tops is silly IMO. Do you know who goes and gets coffee break on construction sites everyday? The apprentice(rookie) of the crew. Guess who buys coffee break on the first Friday of every month? Yep, the same guy. ZOMG CHANGE THE CULTURE OF CONSTRUCTION!!!

If the journeyman is also calling him a n*gger and telling him he wants to crap in his mouth, then yes, CHANGE THE CULTURE OF CONSTRUCTION.

Why do you refuse to understand my point? Are your blinders that big or are you just so set on proving your point that you're failing to grasp what I'm typing. AGAIN, I don't condone what Richie did, he went above and beyond and should be dealt with internally. And if a journeyman floor layer started abusing the apprentice above and beyond then he would be dealt with appropriately. But for outsiders to insist about culture change, they're wrong. If you still don't understand what I'm saying , then good luck because that's my last reply in the topic.

 

[Billy Bats]

THATS the real problem IMO, people wanting to change everyone and everything around them when it's none of their business.

That's how any and all social progress is made. The "keep out of my business" line of thinking can be used to used to perpetuate serious wrongs.

For instance, how do you think it worked out for 19th-century construction magnates who said "Screw hard hats and safety equipment! Labor is cheap, and I can just throw more bodies at my building no matter how many men are killed and maimed! You federal inspectors stay out of my business!"?

It's a violent sport played by violent men, and I like it the way it is.

It may be a violent sport, but not every man who plays it is violent. Some are actually cultured and mature. Some may even be a little soft. And those people shouldn't have to tolerate bullying on any level. Just like you don't on your work place.

My sentence right before the one you quoted said, "I'm not condoning Incognito's actions in any way". He took it above and beyond, and those that do should be dealt with internally. But for me, you or anyone else to scream CHANGE THE CULTURE OF LOCKER ROOMS from the mountain tops is silly IMO.Do you know who goes and gets coffee break on construction sites everyday? The apprentice(rookie) of the crew. Guess who buys coffee break on the first Friday of every month? Yep, the same guy. ZOMG CHANGE THE CULTURE OF CONSTRUCTION!!!

How long does the guy have to buy you coffee? Until another apprentice comes along? Then he feels the only way make things right is to force the next guy to buy the coffee.What if one of the guys wants a bagel with his coffee? Does the apprentice pay for that? Or maybe a trip to Branson, and he wants the apprentice to pay for it?

Depends, it usually only lasts the amount of time that they're on the job when he started. And his purchase is maxed at $20, so coffees and a dozen donuts usually gets the job done.

 

[phrozen]

I think a lot of grasping at straws here - given how little we actually know about the situation.

1. I think the racial threats seem tenuous, at best. If you really think someone is going to #####-slap your mother, or rip open your head, and #### down your neck, then you report those threats immediately - not 7 months later.

2. Its possible that Martin was given "the treatment" from the OL in Miami - after all, they did apparently stand up a walk away from him when he sat down with them at the lunch table. Scary stuff.

3. The "bullying" at the workplace, may not have risen to the level where anyone else on the team, players or coaches were concerned. I think a lot of people are assuming it must have been pretty bad for Martin to walk away - but maybe he is just hypersensitive, and the shenanigans at the workplace were not outrageous - expect the getting up and walking away from lunch - that is patently offensive. So, its possible, there was nothing for the coaches to see or react to. I certainly have not seen any Dolphin player step up and say they thought Martin was being bullied.

4. Richie Incognito certainly comes across as being an ###. But I don't see his teammates turning on him the way the Eagles players turned on Cooper. That suggests to me, that while uncouth, Incognito is probably not as bad, and did not have mal-intent when leaving the voicemail (or the texts that I have not yet seen). Using the n-word, in and of itself is not racist. I get the sense from the TMZ video that Incognito may use that term a lot without intending it in a negative manner. I don't know - but those who know him better than me, seem to shrug their shoulders here.

5. Martin had a lot of options available to him between fighting Incognito, and documenting a lawsuit. If his goal was simply to get rid of a hostile work environment, it seems that he would have been better served to bring these issues up, a long time ago. And allow someone in authority to address the situation. Maybe he did that - but I have not seen anything to suggest he did. It looks more like a situation, where Martin did not want to play anymore, but still wanted to get paid.

We'll see what facts still come out, and who draws what conclusions - but it seems too early in the story to start writing an ending here.

I love how you are talking about waiting for facts and drawing conclusions because we need the facts to come out but your entire recap is filled with your opinion and your own conclusions without the facts.

 

[Bob Magaw]

three topical PFT articles...

why won't the dolphins answer the question whether the coaches asked incognito to "toughen up" martin? if it is a resounding no, how would that obstruct the investigation? the answer may be that philbin doesn't think it happened, but he doesn't want to say something now that could blow up in his face later, and make him come off as a liar, if it did happen (of course, by keeping silent, that could make him come off as ignorant about what goes on in his own organization - in other words, if it did happen and he knew, he could be busted, but if it did happen and he didn't know, he could also be busted for accountability failure of what goes on)...

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/06/dolphins-silence-in-the-wake-of-incognito-report-speaks-volumes/

as a former practicing lawyer, i sometimes give PFTs mike florio more credence when he offers legal takes... i found the below interesting, in that context... in my understanding of this, martin accused incognito of bullying, not the other way around... they should take the accusation very seriously, and in some ways they seem to have done so (owner thanked league for independent consul investigation, though not sure if they asked for it or it was imposed from above?)... but since we are in the earliest stages of the investigation, and in fact maybe it hasn't even really begun, officially, by the league, there shouldn't be even a hint of impropriety as to bias against martin (again, he made the accusation - interestingly, incognito has been suspended and not martin, which may not sound like an impartial or neutral process, but that decision was reportedly made after team AND league representatives had viewed the evidence, such as it was in the early stages)...

but yet we have cases where there are reports that hartline is "outraged", and he and clabo have outspokenly blamed martin and sided with incognito... IF martin's allegations are true and he was harrassed by incognito (or felt that way), who was enabled by a hostile workplace to martin... hartline and clabo's comments seem to cement the idea, that the dolphins locker room, at least in part, may be hostile to him in the future... this may be at cross purposes to the larger message the organization (AND league) wants to be sending to martin at a highly sensitive time, especially if he is contemplating future legal action... paraphrasing, florio makes the point that this kind of impression of a divided house-based conflicted message, even still, after the league found need for an independent investigation, seems to further perpetuate and fuel the extermal perception that nobody is in charge and the dolphins are handling this whole situation clumsily (though they earlier took swift and decisive action against incognito)...

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/06/dolphins-hit-rock-bottom-keep-digging/

in another article, it reports the NFLPA wants the respective agents of incognito and martin to meet... it broaches the subject that if reports that incognito was ordered to "toughen up" martin are true ("you can't stand the truth!"), that could simultaneously exonerate incognito and shift the lame squarely on the organization, from the league's perspective... but even if the team is held accountable in some way for opening the gates of hell and letting the devil out (to use the quaint description by incognito's father of the wrath of richie), incognito would still seem to be in the position of expaining the racial slurs, threats (which while some may find laughable, the league's legal department may look askance at) and maybe most seriously, the extortion charges, by some sources, estimated at upwards of 100K from martin to incognito alone...

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/06/report-nflpa-wants-agents-for-martin-incognito-to-meet/

 

[Sammy3469]

If Jeff Ireland really told Martin to punch Incogneto like ESPN Is reporting before Martin left the team, well Ireland isn't long for that job.

 

[fantasycurse42]

My good friend was an all PAC 12 (PAC 10 then) o-tackle... Played a year on Balt and a year in buffalo. His opinion is as valid as anyone I know... Here is our text:

Me: thoughts on Miami?

Him: I know some guys that are friends with Incognito, there's no denying he is an ####### but all he was doing was calling Martin out for being an overpaid #####. This happens all the time on every team in the league. If he didn't call him a half ######, this story might not have made the news.

I then asked him thoughts on their futures.

Him: Martin will play on Miami, pretty much bc now they have to deal with this ####. There isnt a GM that will take a regular player that airs dirty laundry to the press and not the team. Incognito will not play this season, but there will be quite a few teams inquire about his services next year. He's got a few good years left.

Shows how clueless athletes are. You think an NFL team will warrant the distraction of Incognito and what he will bring after this?

Oh, Athletes always expect no repercussions. I don't think a team can sign him, if they do it will have to be after some time passes, by then his career will be over.

Yea, bc your opinion is more valid then someone who was actually in the lockeroom playing the position.

 

[fatness]

Sources: Ireland suggested that Martin confront Incognito physically

Per multiple league sources, Dolphins G.M. Jeff Ireland received a call from Martin’s agent, Rick Smith, before Martin left the team on October 28. Smith complained to Ireland about the manner in which Incognito was treating Martin.

Ireland, according to the sources, suggested to Smith that Martin physically confront Incognito. Ireland specifically mentioned that Martin should “punch” Incognito.

Throughout the past few days, it’s become clear that too many people in and around football believe that locker-room bullying should be met with violence. That fact that Ireland suggested that Martin should physically confront Incognito is, frankly, alarming.

Ireland’s comments to Smith, coupled with Wednesday’s comments from multiple players, also supports Martin’s eventual conclusion that the team wasn’t inclined to do anything about the situation without Martin taking a stand — not by fighting Incognito but by walking out.

 

[Bob Magaw]

For those that haven't actually heard the voice mail, here it is.

Many of us out here are interested in the truth, and hearing the voicemail helps. Also hearing Tannehill speak, seeing Hartline's response and looking at the situation as a whole should have changed people's view a bit from the time this thread started.

Listen to that voicemail again. I think many of us played sports here. I have to imagine that hearing that voicemail reminds you of that guy who used to be on your team. The guy who most knew wasn't the brightest bulb in the room, loved to start s*#t with anyone he didn't deem "cool" but was actually a good teammate because when you told Biff to do something then "Biff go do it!"

It sounds like Incognito is dumber than horses*#*t and did something stupid and got caught. Listening to the voicemail, though - I don't hear any malice. I hear a blockhead. I also hear the type of guy that would be a bully and take it overboard.

Threads like these often find people backing themselves into a corner with a specific opinion and then when information changes they are so entrenched that it really hurts their pride to change stances. If you're honest though, information (and opinions) are changing.

So far, it looks like both the guys, Martin and Incognito, have "issues", but at opposite ends of the spectrum. Incognito is probably a psycho bully based off of a LONG history of him since high school getting in trouble. If what has come out recently about Martin is true then he could have issues as well - or he could just be a conniving little pr*ck.

Either way, Incognito tried to pull his bully shtick on the wrong guy. He's gotten in trouble for it before, gotten kicked off teams - yet he never learned. Well, now there's another "lesson" coming his way - maybe the hardest lesson of all. What he did was wrong. Maybe it was done out of ignorance, but it doesn't matter.

It sounds like most of his teammates dealt with it and laughed it off. But maybe it wasn't directed at them. I bet if big-dumb-oaf-guy decided to focus on you with his bully shtick then it could be quite annoying. And he screwed with the wrong guy in Martin - whether he's the soft Shrek some think he is or a sneaky little rat like other's think, he's Incognito's next wake up call.

Step back and look at what's out there. No one knows what's happened, but if you peek out from behind your own agenda here, it sure looks like it could be not quite what it seemed to be early on.

So far it looks like Incognito may not be as bad as many think, Martin may not be as good as others think, and you can't ignore the history of both players here. Martin doesn't really have anything outstanding that's come out yet about his past, while Incognito is the essense of the "where there's smoke there's fire" maxim.

Should get interesting here.

that seems like a reasonable and impartial summing up...

it is a good reminder that, if incognito is kicked off the dolphins, it will be after also being kicked off nebraska and oregon in college and STL in the pros... so he has a known history...

its hard to see how martin has as checkered a past and resume?

but as you said, new facts come to light...

in an earlier post, i intended (meaning did purposefully, not meant to) to first say that martin may have sent mixed signals...

after trying to think of non-sinister reasons for martin's behavior, i wasn't endorsing the idea it is impossible he could share culpability, though it may have seemed that way due to the emphasis...

it just didn't seem necessary to elaborate that laughing at the n word may have meant he didn't mind... to me, that falls into the catefory of information everybody already possesses... of course, that COULD be damaging...

i was just trying to think if it were possible that he could have been surprised by the reaction of laughter, and went along with it... but still harbored resentment on the inside, which others may not have known...

to extend that, if he even thought of showing others within the locker room similar things in the future, but had already been met with laughter the first time... would he be more or less likely to follow up? yet for some, his not following up is treated as evidence of sinister motives?

i can conceive of the possibility that martin had as much or more culpability than incognito, when more facts come to light, we are awaiting independent consul ruling, though in the earlier case of new orleans, there was found to be a pattern of closing ranks, a culture of silence and obstructing the investigation (all for obvious reasons probably not necessary to get into in this context)... but because martin doesn't have as disturbing and lengthy a history of being a problem as incognito, i have not emphasized trying to exonerate incognito during the dialogue... until i'm more convinced martin engaged in wrong doing (made up bullying, he doesn't really believe it, just being vindictive and taking out revenge on incognito for "petty" frustrations like calling him a half breed and saying he would slap the #### out of his mother, etc.), i'm not comfortable villifying or demonizing him...

maybe it seems like i am doing that to incognito, but it is just stating a fact that there is a pattern of instability, volatile behavior and not being accountable in incognito's background (like you said, he has been kicked off many teams, i'm not making this stuff up or speculating about his past)... his peers said he was the dirtiest player in the NFL... in the absence of that kind of pattern in martin's background (getting kicked off of multiple teams), i'd prefer to wait before ascribing sinister motives to martin... but it doesn't mean i never will, presented with additional evidence and having time to think about it...

* obviously everybody looks at the world and responds to it from their unique background and history that shaped them... i haven't listened to the message yet, but will next... but i do know of a case of former co-workers who were subjected to several "joking" death threats by another co-worker... like coming back later and shooting people, ha ha kind of thing... they did seem to be in a joking manner and context based on the description... but they weren't amused... and the "joke" death threats might have taken on a different meaning and concern when the individual in question was later fired (not for that).

nice backpedal

how is it backpedaling when in this post i noted EARLIER mentioning possible mixed signals by martin?

i've already addressed some of this in post #1628 above.

i felt before we should get more information about martin, not having the pathological background of incognito... still do... no backpedaling...

i've never said it is impossible martin might have partial or complete guilt once more information emerges (that would be a ludicrously extremist position), so nothing to take back there?

incognito probably wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed by leaving a VM THAT COULD BE INTERPRETED AS A RACIAL SLUR... that was my opinion before and still is... no backpedaling there...

now he is in a position of having to defend its use as a term of familiarity or endearment, when already, some african american players around the NFL (i briefly heard the BAL DT, formerly with NYG and DAL, wed) stated it is offensive and has no place in the contemporary NFL... now cris carter said he is close to teammate pouncey, and he insists he isn't racist... but though not everybody will be offended, it is certain some will, no matter his intentions... it won't be as easy to prove martin wasn't or couldn't have been offended by the slurs... again, no backpedaling...

i'm aware i may seem inconsistent in thinking martin is more deserving of the benefit of the doubt than incognito, but i have explained that absent incognito's problematic "psycho end of the spectrum" background, as you put it, they aren't equivalent situations, and the martin being more deserving of being innocent until proven guilty than incognito asymmetry seems reasonable (which the team and league seem to agree with, seeing as incognito is suspended and martin isn't, despite having less than the whole story from both sides)... no backpedaling...

"joking" death threats aren't always as much of a side slapper and hysterically funny for those on the receiving end... especially if they are being delievered by, again to use your terminology, somebody like incognito on the "psycho end of the spectrum"... i didn't say anything to the contrary earlier, so that couldn't be backpedaling...

 

[Tango]

The content of the agent/Ireland call can only be one of two potential sources; Ireland or the agent.

Let's rule Ireland out of leaking he suggested punching someone....

That would leave he agent as the source.

Is it not clear, based on Hartline's on the record comments, that at the very least the Martin camp has a bit of a credibility problem?

 

[Norman Paperman]

Its fascinating how the narrative of this story is evolving in the national media. I think the initial reaction following the release of the vmail was predictable, so much righteous indignation at the language and the threats that Joe Buck would be proud. The story was off to a great start with sweet, sensitive kid from Stanford who was viciously tormented by the evil racist bully.

All the talking heads were ready to wrap up the story - just needed to get a few quotes from the Dolphin teammates to cement the storyline. With visions of the vitriol coming from the Eagles locker room following Cooper's rant, the media was expecting the same in Miami. But a funny thing happened on the way to wrapping up the story.

All of a sudden, teammates were backing the evil racist bully. Surely, this must be a circle-the-wagons approach. There is no way this is not the classic good v. evil story, they would think. After all, the public has already determined the outcome here, we're just feeding the public what they already "know". People just don't talk like Incognito in journalism school, or office cubicles, he must have posed a serious threat to Martin - I mean there is no plausible explanation for Martin leaving the team unless he really feared for his, and his family's, physical safety.

Stay tuned for more As the World Turns....

 

[Hang 10]

Yeah, let's take Martin's agent's word as gospel.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

My good friend was an all PAC 12 (PAC 10 then) o-tackle... Played a year on Balt and a year in buffalo. His opinion is as valid as anyone I know... Here is our text:

Me: thoughts on Miami?

Him: I know some guys that are friends with Incognito, there's no denying he is an ####### but all he was doing was calling Martin out for being an overpaid #####. This happens all the time on every team in the league. If he didn't call him a half ######, this story might not have made the news.

I then asked him thoughts on their futures.

Him: Martin will play on Miami, pretty much bc now they have to deal with this ####. There isnt a GM that will take a regular player that airs dirty laundry to the press and not the team. Incognito will not play this season, but there will be quite a few teams inquire about his services next year. He's got a few good years left.

Shows how clueless athletes are. You think an NFL team will warrant the distraction of Incognito and what he will bring after this?

Oh, Athletes always expect no repercussions. I don't think a team can sign him, if they do it will have to be after some time passes, by then his career will be over.

Dude... there was no text conversation.

 

[Bob Magaw]

The content of the agent/Ireland call can only be one of two potential sources; Ireland or the agent.

Let's rule Ireland out of leaking he suggested punching someone....

That would leave he agent as the source.

Is it not clear, based on Hartline's on the record comments, that at the very least the Martin camp has a bit of a credibility problem?

absolutely, goes without saying martin's agent could be making the story up out of whole cloth...

and lets face it, it will be impossible to "prove" without corroboration, probably from within the dolphins organization (if ireland told philbin he did say this before things blew wide one, and nobody realized the scope and magnitude, would he give him up... would that be a career decision for philbin, for fear other NFL teams might not hire somebody who broke the organizational code of silence?)...

you are right, the source would seemingly be martin's agent... unless ireland was indiscrete and told some people around the league about what happened, before realizing the circus this would become... or maybe word got around internally, and somebody who doesn't like ireland from within the organization (that narrows it down to just about everybody) wants to see him fired?

you mentioned credibility... incognito may have some of his own issues... there are subjective accounts of others defending incognito and "outraged" at martin... but i don't think anybody can say FOR martin, that he shouldn't, let alone COULDN'T be offended with racial slurs and family insults?

in the end, i think it will come down to precedent... do martin and his agent have a history and pattern of lying, for instance?

has there been a lot of organizational chatter that it may be hard to suppress that the coaches wanted to "toughen up" martin...

does ireland have a history and pattern of boneheaded, neanderthal behavior and questionable judgement ("so dez, can you shed some light on rumors that your mother is a prostitute?")... if we have to go on inferences and plausibilities, ireland has a few skeletons in his closet... in the the wake of the notorious bryant interview and later organizational blowback/embarrasment, there was talk of free agents not wanting to go there at the time... to this day, many MIA fans think he is incompetent and would love nothing more to come out of this than being rid of him...

in the bryant interview example, his almost singular lack of basic smarts at the front office level makes tony siragusa look like professor moriarty in comparison.

 

[Sammy3469]

Yeah, let's take Martin's agent's word as gospel.

If the agent is worth anything and knows what he was doing, he'll have it documented. It's not a coincidence that Martin had the agent talk with Ireland. Martin and his agent were lining this claim up and getting all his ducks in a row.

 

[Hang 10]

Yeah, let's take Martin's agent's word as gospel.

If the agent is worth anything and knows what he was doing, he'll have it documented. It's not a coincidence that Martin had the agent talk with Ireland. Martin and his agent were lining this claim up and getting all his ducks in a row.

You think he was recording the conversation?

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Sources: Ireland suggested that Martin confront Incognito physically

Per multiple league sources, Dolphins G.M. Jeff Ireland received a call from Martin’s agent, Rick Smith, before Martin left the team on October 28. Smith complained to Ireland about the manner in which Incognito was treating Martin.

Ireland, according to the sources, suggested to Smith that Martin physically confront Incognito. Ireland specifically mentioned that Martin should “punch” Incognito.

Throughout the past few days, it’s become clear that too many people in and around football believe that locker-room bullying should be met with violence. That fact that Ireland suggested that Martin should physically confront Incognito is, frankly, alarming.

Ireland’s comments to Smith, coupled with Wednesday’s comments from multiple players, also supports Martin’s eventual conclusion that the team wasn’t inclined to do anything about the situation without Martin taking a stand — not by fighting Incognito but by walking out.

If that's true -- and given the circumstances you'd have to think the agent took care to document the call, as Martin took care to do with the VMs and texts -- the Dolphins will be up #### creek here. Organizationally harrassment only turns into a problem if it's brought to your attention and you fail to respond. This looks like a textbook case. And for a CEO to suggest a harrassed employee respond by fighting his harrasser is just so dumb that it defies belief.

 

[Sammy3469]

Yeah, let's take Martin's agent's word as gospel.

If the agent is worth anything and knows what he was doing, he'll have it documented. It's not a coincidence that Martin had the agent talk with Ireland. Martin and his agent were lining this claim up and getting all his ducks in a row.

You think he was recording the conversation?

I wouldn't be surprised especially if the agent is a lawyer. It's a pretty big escalation for an agent to go to the GM. It's going over your bosses head.

Even if Ireland didn't suggest force, but the call was made to inform him of the hostile workplace and Ireland did nothing, he (and the Dolphins) are in trouble.

 

[Hang 10]

Sources: Ireland suggested that Martin confront Incognito physically

Per multiple league sources, Dolphins G.M. Jeff Ireland received a call from Martin’s agent, Rick Smith, before Martin left the team on October 28. Smith complained to Ireland about the manner in which Incognito was treating Martin.

Ireland, according to the sources, suggested to Smith that Martin physically confront Incognito. Ireland specifically mentioned that Martin should “punch” Incognito.

Throughout the past few days, it’s become clear that too many people in and around football believe that locker-room bullying should be met with violence. That fact that Ireland suggested that Martin should physically confront Incognito is, frankly, alarming.

Ireland’s comments to Smith, coupled with Wednesday’s comments from multiple players, also supports Martin’s eventual conclusion that the team wasn’t inclined to do anything about the situation without Martin taking a stand — not by fighting Incognito but by walking out.

If that's true -- and given the circumstances you'd have to think the agent took care to document the call, as Martin took care to do with the VMs and texts -- the Dolphins will be up #### creek here. Organizationally harrassment only turns into a problem if it's brought to your attention and you fail to respond. This looks like a textbook case. And for a CEO to suggest a harrassed employee respond by fighting his harrasser is just so dumb that it defies belief.

Again, how would Martin's agent document the call? Recording Ireland without his knowledge? Is that going to help their case?

 

[Hang 10]

Yeah, let's take Martin's agent's word as gospel.

If the agent is worth anything and knows what he was doing, he'll have it documented. It's not a coincidence that Martin had the agent talk with Ireland. Martin and his agent were lining this claim up and getting all his ducks in a row.

You think he was recording the conversation?

I wouldn't be surprised especially if the agent is a lawyer. It's a pretty big escalation for an agent to go to the GM. It's going over your bosses head.

Even if Ireland didn't suggest force, but the call was made to inform him of the hostile workplace and Ireland did nothing, he (and the Dolphins) are in trouble.

Who else would the agent talk to? Agents and GMs have relationships. Can't imagine coaches taking calls from a players agent.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Yeah, let's take Martin's agent's word as gospel.

If the agent is worth anything and knows what he was doing, he'll have it documented. It's not a coincidence that Martin had the agent talk with Ireland. Martin and his agent were lining this claim up and getting all his ducks in a row.

i thought of that, by putting the agent into the loop (rather than martin just walking into the GMs office), adding another person...

but than it was unclear how that would really help, as we would expect martin's agent to take his side...

by document, do you mean record?

that seems unlikely... without consent (at least in CA), i think it is a felony?

and it is hard to imagine even ireland blundering into committing such an incendiary statement to tape if warned in advance?

if it was on tape, we wouldn't be hearing about sources quoting martin's agent...

we would have heard the tape already*...

* unless it is a felony?

just hard to imagine the agent taking the risk if it is illegal (there was a trial a few years ago involving a famous PI to the movie stars in CA who is currently serving time in prison for, among other things, illegal wiretaps)...

for the commishes ears only, not the courtroom?

maybe if goodell wants to save the league embarrasment and protect against a more wide ranging law suit, in a private conference with the agent, while the latter goes to the bar for a couple scotches, the commish he will lunge for the recording media and destroy it!

 

[KCitons]

I've already said that I would own my comments in regards to Martin, if it turns out he is doing this to get out of football and get paid.

What I won't change is my stance on how some people in this thread felt (and still feel) that the only way to deal with a bully is violence. Those people can say "I told you so" if the information changes about Martin. But, it doesn't change their core opinion on dealing with bullies.

Call it holier than though, or whatever. I'm not perfect. But as a society, I thought we left the caveman mentality behind a long time ago.

 

[Norman Paperman]

from a former Dolphin OL:

I want that to be very clear. I played offensive tackle for the Miami Dolphins from 2009 until the 2012 preseason, when I was released after tearing ligaments in my foot and injuring my back, both requiring surgery. I have since retired, and I’m happily working in the auto industry and living outside of Miami. I went to college at Nebraska with Richie Incognito, and I consider myself friends with him and Jonathan Martin, but I don’t speak with them regularly and I’m not taking sides. I’m only interested in the truth, which is what I’m going to share, from my own experiences and from conversations with friends still on the team.

Martin was expected to play left tackle beside Incognito at guard from the start, so Incognito took him under his wing. They were close friends by all apperances. Martin had a tendency to tank when things would get difficult in practice, and Incognito would lift him up. He’d say, there’s always tomorrow. Richie has been more kind to Martin than any other player.

In other situations, when Martin wasn’t showing effort, Richie would give him a lot of crap. He was a leader on the team, and he would get in your face if you were unprepared or playing poorly. The crap he would give Martin was no more than he gave anyone else, including me. Other players said the same things Incognito said to Martin, so you’d need to suspend the whole team if you suspend Incognito.

Every year, as tradition, the offensive line goes on a big Vegas trip. Everything is paid for in advance, from hotels to a private jet to show tickets. Martin originally verbally committed to the trip, then later backed out after everything was booked. Now, if you can’t go because of an emergency then it’s okay, but to say you’re going and then decide you don’t want to spend the money later? Everything was paid for, and then when it was time to pay up he didn’t want to go anymore. You don’t do that to your brothers. The veterans who paid for it, including Incognito and others, asked for Martin’s share, and he gave it to them. End of story.

The most unfortunate thing about this situation is the consequence it will have on the careers of both men. Richie’s marked himself now as a racist and a bigot, and unfortunately that could be the end of it. Martin is on the opposite end of the spectrum, but no more likely than Incognito to return to the NFL if he wants. In going to the media with his problem, Martin broke the code, and it shows that he’s not there for his teammates and he’s not standing up for himself. There might be a team that gives him a chance because he’s a good person, but the players will reject him. They’ll think, If I say one thing he’s going to the press. He’ll never earn the respect of teammates and personnel in the NFL because he didn’t take care of business the right way.

What fans should understand is that every day in the NFL there are battles between players worse than what’s being portrayed. This racial slur would be a blip on the radar if everything that happens in the locker room went public. But all over the league, problems are hashed out in house. Either you talk about it or you get physical. But at the end of the day, you handle it indoors.

 

[Norman Paperman]

I've already said that I would own my comments in regards to Martin, if it turns out he is doing this to get out of football and get paid.

What I won't change is my stance on how some people in this thread felt (and still feel) that the only way to deal with a bully is violence. Those people can say "I told you so" if the information changes about Martin. But, it doesn't change their core opinion on dealing with bullies.

Call it holier than though, or whatever. I'm not perfect. But as a society, I thought we left the caveman mentality behind a long time ago.

I don't think you have to resort to violence, but as I heard someone else say this morning, you do have to address it yourself. In a team environment, I think the worst thing a teammate can do is go outside the organization to resolve the dispute.

 

[fantasycurse42]

from a former Dolphin OL:

I want that to be very clear. I played offensive tackle for the Miami Dolphins from 2009 until the 2012 preseason, when I was released after tearing ligaments in my foot and injuring my back, both requiring surgery. I have since retired, and I’m happily working in the auto industry and living outside of Miami. I went to college at Nebraska with Richie Incognito, and I consider myself friends with him and Jonathan Martin, but I don’t speak with them regularly and I’m not taking sides. I’m only interested in the truth, which is what I’m going to share, from my own experiences and from conversations with friends still on the team.

Martin was expected to play left tackle beside Incognito at guard from the start, so Incognito took him under his wing. They were close friends by all apperances. Martin had a tendency to tank when things would get difficult in practice, and Incognito would lift him up. He’d say, there’s always tomorrow. Richie has been more kind to Martin than any other player.

In other situations, when Martin wasn’t showing effort, Richie would give him a lot of crap. He was a leader on the team, and he would get in your face if you were unprepared or playing poorly. The crap he would give Martin was no more than he gave anyone else, including me. Other players said the same things Incognito said to Martin, so you’d need to suspend the whole team if you suspend Incognito.

Every year, as tradition, the offensive line goes on a big Vegas trip. Everything is paid for in advance, from hotels to a private jet to show tickets. Martin originally verbally committed to the trip, then later backed out after everything was booked. Now, if you can’t go because of an emergency then it’s okay, but to say you’re going and then decide you don’t want to spend the money later? Everything was paid for, and then when it was time to pay up he didn’t want to go anymore. You don’t do that to your brothers. The veterans who paid for it, including Incognito and others, asked for Martin’s share, and he gave it to them. End of story.

The most unfortunate thing about this situation is the consequence it will have on the careers of both men. Richie’s marked himself now as a racist and a bigot, and unfortunately that could be the end of it. Martin is on the opposite end of the spectrum, but no more likely than Incognito to return to the NFL if he wants. In going to the media with his problem, Martin broke the code, and it shows that he’s not there for his teammates and he’s not standing up for himself. There might be a team that gives him a chance because he’s a good person, but the players will reject him. They’ll think, If I say one thing he’s going to the press. He’ll never earn the respect of teammates and personnel in the NFL because he didn’t take care of business the right way.

What fans should understand is that every day in the NFL there are battles between players worse than what’s being portrayed. This racial slur would be a blip on the radar if everything that happens in the locker room went public. But all over the league, problems are hashed out in house. Either you talk about it or you get physical. But at the end of the day, you handle it indoors.

This looks good - I agree with everything except the impact on Incognito. He's still got gas in the tank & he'll play again.

 

[Phenix]

My good friend was an all PAC 12 (PAC 10 then) o-tackle... Played a year on Balt and a year in buffalo. His opinion is as valid as anyone I know... Here is our text:

Me: thoughts on Miami?

Him: I know some guys that are friends with Incognito, there's no denying he is an ####### but all he was doing was calling Martin out for being an overpaid #####. This happens all the time on every team in the league. If he didn't call him a half ######, this story might not have made the news.

I then asked him thoughts on their futures.

Him: Martin will play on Miami, pretty much bc now they have to deal with this ####. There isnt a GM that will take a regular player that airs dirty laundry to the press and not the team. Incognito will not play this season, but there will be quite a few teams inquire about his services next year. He's got a few good years left.

Shows how clueless athletes are. You think an NFL team will warrant the distraction of Incognito and what he will bring after this?

Oh, Athletes always expect no repercussions. I don't think a team can sign him, if they do it will have to be after some time passes, by then his career will be over.

Yea, bc your opinion is more valid then someone who was actually in the lockeroom playing the position.

Then by that analogy, you shouldn't have any comment either.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

Martin could end up looking like a real team first guy. Sure, he may not come back to the Dolphins, and neither may Incognito, but if he gets Philbin and Ireland fired, the fans and players of that organization have to see this as a positive move.

 

[Phenix]

Martin could end up looking like a real team first guy. Sure, he may not come back to the Dolphins, and neither may Incognito, but if he gets Philbin and Ireland fired, the fans and players of that organization have to see this as a positive move.

Yup, thats a fact.

It's addition by subtraction. That is putting the team first.

 

[KCitons]

I've already said that I would own my comments in regards to Martin, if it turns out he is doing this to get out of football and get paid.

What I won't change is my stance on how some people in this thread felt (and still feel) that the only way to deal with a bully is violence. Those people can say "I told you so" if the information changes about Martin. But, it doesn't change their core opinion on dealing with bullies.

Call it holier than though, or whatever. I'm not perfect. But as a society, I thought we left the caveman mentality behind a long time ago.

I don't think you have to resort to violence, but as I heard someone else say this morning, you do have to address it yourself. In a team environment, I think the worst thing a teammate can do is go outside the organization to resolve the dispute.

I agree about attempting to handle it yourself. Whether that is talking to the bully (which never works) or talking to the organization. However, more than a few people here blanketed every bully situation as the victim needs to punch the bully in the nose. The reference to Ralphie just confirms this.

Keep in mind that FBG has no filter on who reads these threads. There may be some kid reading this because he is being bullied at school or maybe he's a freshman on a high school football team. He's trying to figure out what to do.

 

[The Duff Man]

Martin looks like the POS.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

FYI, Florida is a 2 party consent state, regarding telephone conversation recording. This could be run around by the agent recording everything so that Ireland could just be used to that and ignoring the lawyer's prompt of "do you consent..." after a while.

 

[cobalt_27]

I've already said that I would own my comments in regards to Martin, if it turns out he is doing this to get out of football and get paid.

What I won't change is my stance on how some people in this thread felt (and still feel) that the only way to deal with a bully is violence. Those people can say "I told you so" if the information changes about Martin. But, it doesn't change their core opinion on dealing with bullies.

Call it holier than though, or whatever. I'm not perfect. But as a society, I thought we left the caveman mentality behind a long time ago.

I don't think you have to resort to violence, but as I heard someone else say this morning, you do have to address it yourself. In a team environment, I think the worst thing a teammate can do is go outside the organization to resolve the dispute.

But, there are times you have to. Given what appears to be an institutional attempt to harass Martin, he really had nowhere to turn internally.

Kid did the right thing. Props to him. Heads are going to roll over this.

 

[David Dodds]

I am mostly for waiting on the sidelines for more info, but this this is my take:

- Miami likely has one of the harshest locker rooms. Incognito (with his past) is on the leadership council? That sounds like a leadership vacuum to me.

- Hazing always escalates over time. It is the reason it was massively reduced at colleges. Someone gets seriously hurt, killed, etc and people in charge must change things. I think it's safe to say that Miami's hazing had crossed the boundaries of good fun and had become a locker room cancer.

- The worst thing you can do as a player is to quit on your team. Martin did that. It does not matter the reason. Virtually no one on the team will stand for that nor take his side.

- The second worst thing you can do on a team is to air team business in public. Martin has done that as well. It does not matter if there was an acceptable solution to find.

- The league is now investigating the hazing, extortion claims. I am certain they will find it. It likely exists on every team, but might also be much worse in Miami.

- The players, leadership, organization are going to get drug through the mud. Incognito is not going to be the only casualty. Fines, penalties, bad press, jobs are all in play. Of course the players are going to have major backlash against Martin. He did not handle this in a way they expected him to and they paid the ultimate price for that.

I am not in the camp that Martin should have had to hit Incognito. I am in the camp that Philbin and Ireland have to have a pulse of the locker room (through trainers, equipment guys, etc). The culture is how they want it. They let this get out of hand and whether it be Martin or someone else, this was needing to be reeled in. Just like Bountygate was unfair to the Saints, this will likely be unfair to Miami. But it likely will dial back the stupidity a few notches just like Bountygate did.

and now we wait.

 

[Sammy3469]

Yeah, let's take Martin's agent's word as gospel.

If the agent is worth anything and knows what he was doing, he'll have it documented. It's not a coincidence that Martin had the agent talk with Ireland. Martin and his agent were lining this claim up and getting all his ducks in a row.

i thought of that, by putting the agent into the loop (rather than martin just walking into the GMs office), adding another person...

but than it was unclear how that would really help, as we would expect martin's agent to take his side...

by document, do you mean record?

that seems unlikely... without consent (at least in CA), i think it is a felony?

and even it is hard to imagine even ireland blundering into committing such an icendiary statement to tape if warned in advance?

if it was on tape, we wouldn't be hearing about sources quoting martin's agent...

we would have heard the tape already...

there's other ways to document a call for legal purposes besides recording it (and most recordings would be inadmissible anyway). I wouldn't be shocked if he had other people on the the call when he made it. Smith is a lawyer who's been in this business since 1985. He knows what he's doing.

In any case, the more important point is the call was made and the Dolphins as an organization did nothing. That's what's going to get the in real trouble as you now have Martin going to management to air his problems. They can't have Philbin coming out and saying they didn't know.

 

[Todem]

from a former Dolphin OL:

I want that to be very clear. I played offensive tackle for the Miami Dolphins from 2009 until the 2012 preseason, when I was released after tearing ligaments in my foot and injuring my back, both requiring surgery. I have since retired, and I’m happily working in the auto industry and living outside of Miami. I went to college at Nebraska with Richie Incognito, and I consider myself friends with him and Jonathan Martin, but I don’t speak with them regularly and I’m not taking sides. I’m only interested in the truth, which is what I’m going to share, from my own experiences and from conversations with friends still on the team.

Martin was expected to play left tackle beside Incognito at guard from the start, so Incognito took him under his wing. They were close friends by all apperances. Martin had a tendency to tank when things would get difficult in practice, and Incognito would lift him up. He’d say, there’s always tomorrow. Richie has been more kind to Martin than any other player.

In other situations, when Martin wasn’t showing effort, Richie would give him a lot of crap. He was a leader on the team, and he would get in your face if you were unprepared or playing poorly. The crap he would give Martin was no more than he gave anyone else, including me. Other players said the same things Incognito said to Martin, so you’d need to suspend the whole team if you suspend Incognito.

Every year, as tradition, the offensive line goes on a big Vegas trip. Everything is paid for in advance, from hotels to a private jet to show tickets. Martin originally verbally committed to the trip, then later backed out after everything was booked. Now, if you can’t go because of an emergency then it’s okay, but to say you’re going and then decide you don’t want to spend the money later? Everything was paid for, and then when it was time to pay up he didn’t want to go anymore. You don’t do that to your brothers. The veterans who paid for it, including Incognito and others, asked for Martin’s share, and he gave it to them. End of story.

The most unfortunate thing about this situation is the consequence it will have on the careers of both men. Richie’s marked himself now as a racist and a bigot, and unfortunately that could be the end of it. Martin is on the opposite end of the spectrum, but no more likely than Incognito to return to the NFL if he wants. In going to the media with his problem, Martin broke the code, and it shows that he’s not there for his teammates and he’s not standing up for himself. There might be a team that gives him a chance because he’s a good person, but the players will reject him. They’ll think, If I say one thing he’s going to the press. He’ll never earn the respect of teammates and personnel in the NFL because he didn’t take care of business the right way.

What fans should understand is that every day in the NFL there are battles between players worse than what’s being portrayed. This racial slur would be a blip on the radar if everything that happens in the locker room went public. But all over the league, problems are hashed out in house. Either you talk about it or you get physical. But at the end of the day, you handle it indoors.

This looks good - I agree with everything except the impact on Incognito. He's still got gas in the tank & he'll play again.

Agreed with the quotes.

Martin is black listed by the players now....no question. Can't trust him at all.

This whole thing is just incredible. I have not posted a word on it till now....I wanted everything to come out first (I still think more will). It is crystal clear the team (players that is) is completely behind Richie.

That's all I need to know.

This is football....this is team sports in general.

This is not boarding school.

If you ever played team sports on a high school level or above.....this is par for the course.

But we are now in such a hyper media world that everything today goes viral......it's sickening.

Martin will fade into obscurity.....while Richie will continue to play in the NFL.

But good ol Roger will lay out some new hazing rules.....LMFAO.

What a freaking PC world we are becoming.....an for the worse people.....for the worse.

Over sensitive about everything......it's incredible.

You never.....ever heard about crap like this when we were growing up (Gen X).

If you were not tough enough to take the heat......you got out of the kitchen.

You don't go and light a gas fire in it.

That is exactly what Jonathan Martin is doing. Yeah.....he is a pansy.

I said it.

 

[KCitons]

from a former Dolphin OL:

I want that to be very clear. I played offensive tackle for the Miami Dolphins from 2009 until the 2012 preseason, when I was released after tearing ligaments in my foot and injuring my back, both requiring surgery. I have since retired, and I’m happily working in the auto industry and living outside of Miami. I went to college at Nebraska with Richie Incognito, and I consider myself friends with him and Jonathan Martin, but I don’t speak with them regularly and I’m not taking sides. I’m only interested in the truth, which is what I’m going to share, from my own experiences and from conversations with friends still on the team.

Martin was expected to play left tackle beside Incognito at guard from the start, so Incognito took him under his wing. They were close friends by all apperances. Martin had a tendency to tank when things would get difficult in practice, and Incognito would lift him up. He’d say, there’s always tomorrow. Richie has been more kind to Martin than any other player.

In other situations, when Martin wasn’t showing effort, Richie would give him a lot of crap. He was a leader on the team, and he would get in your face if you were unprepared or playing poorly. The crap he would give Martin was no more than he gave anyone else, including me. Other players said the same things Incognito said to Martin, so you’d need to suspend the whole team if you suspend Incognito.

Every year, as tradition, the offensive line goes on a big Vegas trip. Everything is paid for in advance, from hotels to a private jet to show tickets. Martin originally verbally committed to the trip, then later backed out after everything was booked. Now, if you can’t go because of an emergency then it’s okay, but to say you’re going and then decide you don’t want to spend the money later? Everything was paid for, and then when it was time to pay up he didn’t want to go anymore. You don’t do that to your brothers. The veterans who paid for it, including Incognito and others, asked for Martin’s share, and he gave it to them. End of story.

The most unfortunate thing about this situation is the consequence it will have on the careers of both men. Richie’s marked himself now as a racist and a bigot, and unfortunately that could be the end of it. Martin is on the opposite end of the spectrum, but no more likely than Incognito to return to the NFL if he wants. In going to the media with his problem, Martin broke the code, and it shows that he’s not there for his teammates and he’s not standing up for himself. There might be a team that gives him a chance because he’s a good person, but the players will reject him. They’ll think, If I say one thing he’s going to the press. He’ll never earn the respect of teammates and personnel in the NFL because he didn’t take care of business the right way.

What fans should understand is that every day in the NFL there are battles between players worse than what’s being portrayed. This racial slur would be a blip on the radar if everything that happens in the locker room went public. But all over the league, problems are hashed out in house. Either you talk about it or you get physical. But at the end of the day, you handle it indoors.

This looks good - I agree with everything except the impact on Incognito. He's still got gas in the tank & he'll play again.

Haven't had a chance to figure out who this is. But, I'm not sure about the timeline. If he was released in the preseason of 2012, he would have had minimal time with Martin. Martin was a 2012 draft pick and depending on when he signed his contract, this player may have only had a couple of weeks to observe Incognito and Martin together. He also may be talking about the first days of hazing. It's obvious that he wasn't there in the spring of this year to know what is going on in the Dolphins organization.

 

[Todem]

Martin could end up looking like a real team first guy. Sure, he may not come back to the Dolphins, and neither may Incognito, but if he gets Philbin and Ireland fired, the fans and players of that organization have to see this as a positive move.

Yup, thats a fact.

It's addition by subtraction. That is putting the team first.

LOL...that's true......out of a negative comes a positive.

Fire all those clowns.

 

[Hang 10]

from a former Dolphin OL:

I want that to be very clear. I played offensive tackle for the Miami Dolphins from 2009 until the 2012 preseason, when I was released after tearing ligaments in my foot and injuring my back, both requiring surgery. I have since retired, and I’m happily working in the auto industry and living outside of Miami. I went to college at Nebraska with Richie Incognito, and I consider myself friends with him and Jonathan Martin, but I don’t speak with them regularly and I’m not taking sides. I’m only interested in the truth, which is what I’m going to share, from my own experiences and from conversations with friends still on the team.

Martin was expected to play left tackle beside Incognito at guard from the start, so Incognito took him under his wing. They were close friends by all apperances. Martin had a tendency to tank when things would get difficult in practice, and Incognito would lift him up. He’d say, there’s always tomorrow. Richie has been more kind to Martin than any other player.

In other situations, when Martin wasn’t showing effort, Richie would give him a lot of crap. He was a leader on the team, and he would get in your face if you were unprepared or playing poorly. The crap he would give Martin was no more than he gave anyone else, including me. Other players said the same things Incognito said to Martin, so you’d need to suspend the whole team if you suspend Incognito.

Every year, as tradition, the offensive line goes on a big Vegas trip. Everything is paid for in advance, from hotels to a private jet to show tickets. Martin originally verbally committed to the trip, then later backed out after everything was booked. Now, if you can’t go because of an emergency then it’s okay, but to say you’re going and then decide you don’t want to spend the money later? Everything was paid for, and then when it was time to pay up he didn’t want to go anymore. You don’t do that to your brothers. The veterans who paid for it, including Incognito and others, asked for Martin’s share, and he gave it to them. End of story.

The most unfortunate thing about this situation is the consequence it will have on the careers of both men. Richie’s marked himself now as a racist and a bigot, and unfortunately that could be the end of it. Martin is on the opposite end of the spectrum, but no more likely than Incognito to return to the NFL if he wants. In going to the media with his problem, Martin broke the code, and it shows that he’s not there for his teammates and he’s not standing up for himself. There might be a team that gives him a chance because he’s a good person, but the players will reject him. They’ll think, If I say one thing he’s going to the press. He’ll never earn the respect of teammates and personnel in the NFL because he didn’t take care of business the right way.

What fans should understand is that every day in the NFL there are battles between players worse than what’s being portrayed. This racial slur would be a blip on the radar if everything that happens in the locker room went public. But all over the league, problems are hashed out in house. Either you talk about it or you get physical. But at the end of the day, you handle it indoors.

This looks good - I agree with everything except the impact on Incognito. He's still got gas in the tank & he'll play again.

Haven't had a chance to figure out who this is. But, I'm not sure about the timeline. If he was released in the preseason of 2012, he would have had minimal time with Martin. Martin was a 2012 draft pick and depending on when he signed his contract, this player may have only had a couple of weeks to observe Incognito and Martin together. He also may be talking about the first days of hazing. It's obvious that he wasn't there in the spring of this year to know what is going on in the Dolphins organization.

He's not anonymous. Click the link.

 

[Phenix]

I am mostly for waiting on the sidelines for more info, but this this is my take:

- Miami likely has one of the harshest locker rooms. Incognito (with his past) is on the leadership council? That sounds like a leadership vacuum to me.

- Hazing always escalates over time. It is the reason it was massively reduced at colleges. Someone gets seriously hurt, killed, etc and people in charge must change things. I think it's safe to say that Miami's hazing had crossed the boundaries of good fun and had become a locker room cancer.

- The worst thing you can do as a player is to quit on your team. Martin did that. It does not matter the reason. Virtually no one on the team will stand for that nor take his side.

- The second worst thing you can do on a team is to air team business in public. Martin has done that as well. It does not matter if there was an acceptable solution to find.

- The league is now investigating the hazing, extortion claims. I am certain they will find it. It likely exists on every team, but might also be much worse in Miami.

- The players, leadership, organization are going to get drug through the mud. Incognito is not going to be the only casualty. Fines, penalties, bad press, jobs are all in play. Of course the players are going to have major backlash against Martin. He did not handle this in a way they expected him to and they paid the ultimate price for that.

I am not in the camp that Martin should have had to hit Incognito. I am in the camp that Philbin and Ireland have to have a pulse of the locker room (through trainers, equipment guys, etc). The culture is how they want it. They let this get out of hand and whether it be Martin or someone else, this was needing to be reeled in. Just like Bountygate was unfair to the Saints, this will likely be unfair to Miami. But it likely will dial back the stupidity a few notches just like Bountygate did.

and now we wait.

well said, but maybe Miami should've handled it better and he wouldn't have to quit. Extreme circumstances call for extreme measures. If his agent called Ireland, and Ireland said what was rumored, then the very next day was still harassed, he was left with no choice. What, was he suppose to run to Brian Hartline and say Incognito is harassing him and that was gonna make everything better? He already had his agent call, if he wanted to walk out at that point he had every right, regardless of how the people who didn't stick up for him see it. They quit on him, not the other way around.

Some can continue to take the hard stand that he shouldn't quit or air dirty info, he was forced to this. Just like in an argument, the reaction is not the one at fault in my eyes, the instigator is the worst culprit of all. Dont want a bad reaction, don't instigate like a school girl.