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Dolphin Players bullied Jonathan Martin, Richie Incognito SUSPENDED (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter KellysHeroes
- Start date
Stealthycat
Footballguy
looking more and more like Martin is the criminal here and Incognito is the victim
KCitons
Footballguy
Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter5m
After Richie Incognito was accused of harassing a volunteer at Dolphins charity golf tourney in 2012, HC Joe Phibin wanted to release him.
After Richie Incognito was accused of harassing a volunteer at Dolphins charity golf tourney in 2012, HC Joe Phibin wanted to release him.
KCitons
Footballguy
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
Based on Schefters tweet, I think you get an idea of what is going on with Incognito. As soon as any negative info came out on Richie, Philbin wanted him gone. Ireland had to have been the person that was pushing for Richie to stay on. Which would make sense as to why Ross supported Philbin, and has been quiet about Ireland.
fatness
Footballguy
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
1. Martin is a sissy. I think it was Todem that reported this initially.
2. Martin's mom is a lawyer. Credit to MOP.
3. This whole thing stinks. This one I think was by Todem.
This stuff adds up.
fatness
Footballguy
So no new evidence. Just the same people in this topic saying the same things.
Mountains.
fatness
Footballguy
http://nflspinzone.com/2013/12/01/richie-incognito-released-last-year/
Philbin wanted to release him. Who decided to keep him? Ireland? Ross?
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
Yes. Exactly. I doubt we are going to see anything good until the report is published.
fatness
Footballguy
Except for anecdotal stuff I think you're right. And if the report comes out later than 2 weeks from now the Dolphins are going to have to do some more stalling with Incognito. They already know Martin's gone for the year, and they won't let Incognito back unless a report completely clears him.
The Duff Man
Footballguy
I am surprised more players dont go after coaches with lawsuits for workplace harassment. Is it OK to yell and curse at an employee? I think not!!
Martin opening up a can of worms for all the players who cant cut it, to cry foul prior to losing their jobs and set themselves up for a nice pay day.
Martin opening up a can of worms for all the players who cant cut it, to cry foul prior to losing their jobs and set themselves up for a nice pay day.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Agreed. How about when a coach pats a player on the butt after a nice play? How would that go over in a board room?
Man In The Box
Footballguy
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
i am truly shocked.
digging deeper has uncovered more wrong doing against other MIA employees.
completely blindsided by this report...
The Duff Man
Footballguy
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Hoss Style
Footballguy
It's late, I haven't slept in a while, so I hesitate to ask this, but -
Is this some kind of pun that I'm missing? Or is this what I think it is?
fatness
Footballguy
A week to 10 days until completion of Wells's report. A meeting with Martin today to go over what's been found. Second-round interviews with some Dolphins, inclucing Incognito, to "clarify" some things next week.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10083022/jonathan-martin-miami-dolphins-investigator-ted-wells-meet-again
fatness
Footballguy
The meeting with Martin today is/was going on 3 hours ago.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/dolphins/2013/12/05/jonathan-martin-ted-wells-interview-richie-incognito-bullying/3880093/
KCitons
Footballguy
Any reports of a rubber hose and bright lights being used during the Martin interview?
fatness
Footballguy
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Seems like Phinsfans are bored with this, I know I am. Nothing new to discuss till we see what was discovered in the report if anything at all.
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
fatness
Footballguy
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Wonder if his mommy and daddy were there holding his hands and dabbing his eyes with kleenex for the full three hours.
ETA...Before anyone gets angry at me for that post, just know I am only kidding. Playing along with the silly posts that came before this one.
ETA...Before anyone gets angry at me for that post, just know I am only kidding. Playing along with the silly posts that came before this one.
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KCitons
Footballguy
My prediction is that there are more than just a few incidents. To which the severity of most, is on a minor scale. There will be one or two that are considered enough to warrant the Teams and Leagues attention.
I think Martin is using incidents where he wasn't the target, but may have witnessed to help build his case. I think this is why Wells has (and will again) interview every Dolphins player.
I also believe that Martin's case may lose some of it's strength if Well's determines everyone in that locker room was a victim of Incognito's bullying. The more victims that they can find, the less likely Martin can claim he was singled out or treated unfairly. This would allow the Dolphins and the League to punish Incognito for being a ##### bag, but limit liability for Martin.
I think Martin is using incidents where he wasn't the target, but may have witnessed to help build his case. I think this is why Wells has (and will again) interview every Dolphins player.
I also believe that Martin's case may lose some of it's strength if Well's determines everyone in that locker room was a victim of Incognito's bullying. The more victims that they can find, the less likely Martin can claim he was singled out or treated unfairly. This would allow the Dolphins and the League to punish Incognito for being a ##### bag, but limit liability for Martin.
KCitons
Footballguy
Report: Jeff Ireland has been told his job is safe
Ireland has been a popular whipping boy for Dolphins fans, and he spent Ross’s money this offseason like he was desperate to avoid firing.
This should make MOP happy.
Ireland has been a popular whipping boy for Dolphins fans, and he spent Ross’s money this offseason like he was desperate to avoid firing.
This should make MOP happy.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
i think if ireland was by himself the sole non-player's committee member, espn could film him interviewing himself in his capacity as GM, and ask if he is relieved that he didn't fire himself.
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MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
I'd guess that you are right (either that or it's *really* bad).
My take on it at the moment (based on the details we have; more speculative stuff in brackets):
** Martin is drafted by the Dolphins. [He's shy, but somebody who desperately wants to fit in and is maybe a people-pleaser and/or follower type.]
** He has the misfortune of going into a situation where he will have to be under the wing of Richie "I hate rookies" Incognito, who has decided that he will step into a recently-created leadership vacuum all large-and-in-charge (per a M. Silver article). There is not a strong head coach presence/leadership culture to keep things in line.
** He gets teased/hazed/whatever mercilessly by Richie et al. and hates it, but doesn't do anything about it. Maybe he doesn't know how. Maybe he doesn't know he should. [Maybe he mentions that he was getting a lot of grief to his friends/old coaches/etc., but they all say that getting hazed is part of being a rookie, so he thinks it's all normal.] Heck, even the quarterback was having his credit card taken so Richie et al. can buy pricey toys.
** [Richie maybe thinks he really is taking Martin under his wing and thinks nicknames, etc. are normal. Nicknames are one thing, but there can be fine line between one that is motivated by good-natured ribbing, and one that is hurtful. Could be that Martin really hates "Big Weirdo" because it reminds him that he really is a "weirdo" in that setting and isn't fitting in.]
** Vegas trip is planned before the season is over? Martin agrees to go because that is what he is supposed to do to fit in. [but once the season is over he goes home, is back in his element, and is happy again and decides that he has no desire to hang out with those guys, so backs out.] I have read alternative accounts about how he was forced to pay for the trip that suggest they gave him a hard time for not going and told him he had to pay up, even though they didn't really mean it. When he did pay up, they were surprised, but took his money anyway. This is consistent with what we have heard, and with Martin deciding he should go ahead and pay to keep the peace and not rock the boat. (Incidentally, I did something similar once on a much, much smaller scale, and it was well worth it in terms of preserving certain relationships.) Later this is portrayed as them having forced him to pay for a trip he didn't take. If these more nuanced accounts are accurate, there is truth to both sides of the story.
** [Martin can't stand the idea of going back to work], so he skips the voluntary workouts. Understandably, Richie and the Dolphins aren't happy. For whatever reason (whether asked to by the coaches, or otherwise), Richie leaves the infamous voice mail for Martin (I still don't understand how that was supposed to "toughen him up", but I guess that's beside the point.), which he thinks is hilarious (and he might well genuinely think it was pretty much the equivalent of that dog meme Martin sent him). Richie makes a point of reminding Martin that he's still a rookie and should be expected to take grief.
Martin passes it around for people to listen to and supposedly laughs. However, I also read something about how at least one player portrayed this as more of him playing it for others to see what they thought. Again, this more nuanced version makes some sense. If Martin is appalled (and/or offended, which he has every right to be), but wants a reality check to see if the rest of the gang thought it was over the line, he might well have played it for them and when they laughed, laughed outwardly along with them, because that's what he thought he needed to do to get along and fit in. (We all know people like this...) He keeps the voice mail either because he keeps them generally, because he wanted to play it for others to get their opinions, or any number of non-litigation related reasons.
** [unfortunately, Big Weirdo is too much fun for Richie et al. to play with for them to ease up even after he's no longer a rookie, and Martin's life does not get better.] He hangs out with Richie and gang because he's supposed to. He participates in the various hazing/pranking activities, etc. (e.g. moving cars, getting up from the tables, etc.). because that's what he's supposed to do to be one of the gang and he'd probably get treated worse if he didn't. Go along to get along and all that. It doesn't mean he likes them.
** He is miserable and stinking at his job (which are not necessarily unrelated things). He gets demoted. He's probably extremely depressed (and maybe he had pre-existing depression/anxiety/other mental health issues that left him susceptible). He finally reaches his breaking point and storms out of the cafeteria over a seemingly minor event. [He is very fortunate in that he has other options. No matter how much he likes football, why subject himself to this if he could go to the comparatively pleasant and civilized world of law school...?]
** Maybe his texts to Richie are sincere. He doesn't blame him; for him it is all about the culture, which he genuinely can't stand. The perspective he lacks is that Richie World is not reflective of the NFL as a whole and many (or most) other locker rooms have different and probably more congenial cultures. It really *is* Richie, but he doesn't know that, and he is probably not thinking rationally at the time, anyway (and perhaps hasn't been in a while).
** However, somehow it comes out that he had checked himself into a mental hospital. (Via the Dolphins? I don't know that I've seen the source of that leak.) Furthermore, Ireland makes the idiotic comments about punching Richie to Martin's agent. Maybe his parents/agent learn more about what is going on and tell him that it's not OK, and he/they felt it was necessary to fire back in defense since they weren't going to be getting any help/support from the Dolphins management.
<-- It seems to me that it is possible that this is where things started to blow up. What if Martin had been allowed to take a leave of absence "for personal reasons" without the details about him going to a mental hospital, etc. having come out (assuming they came from the Dolphins). What if Ireland's response to Martin's agent had been more along the lines of "Oh, wow. I had no idea anything like this was going on and I assume Philbin didn't either. Let's address this issue after Martin has had some time off." I wonder if these alternative scenarios might have helped diffuse the situation and prevented everything from exploding the way it did.
** Later, Martin is seen laughing and having a good time on the sidelines at a Stanford game. Makes perfect sense to me. He's back in his element, he's comfortable, and he's happy. I'd do exactly the same.
None of this requires any conniving by Martin, or even hugely dreadful (by NFL standards) behavior by Incognito. It was just a perfect storm of misery. Maybe things would have been OK if Martin had been drafted by any of the other 31 teams. Or if he had been a defensive lineman or wide receiver instead (in other words, didn't have to work closely with Richie). If this is the case, then the most reasonable/fair outcome would probably be to release Incognito now-ish and let him go where he can, and then release Martin at the end of the season (while letting him keep his signing bonus for all sorts of reasons). Hopefully Martin would get picked up by another team with a better locker room culture and given a chance. (He is, in theory, the same player who was at one point not long ago deemed to be worth a second round pick and could turn out to be a real bargain, assuming his terrible performance was related to his personal misery. It would be nuts to completely write him off.)
Ironically, if there is any truth to my spin here, it means that Martin is actually in some ways *extremely* mentally tough. He would have handled the situation very poorly and unproductively overall, but he would have certainly (voluntarily) put up with far more misery for far longer than I (and perhaps many people) could have. I would have lost it much sooner.
And if there is any truth to this story, it is another reason why the draft is a terrible thing. Martin had no choice about where he went. It was the Dolphins or nowhere. Assuming for a moment that he is a capable player who couldn't handle a very toxic environment, he got shafted by being forced to go play for the Dolphins. Hopefully he'll get another chance to show what he can or cannot do in the NFL.
Regardless, for the sake of everybody involved, I hope the final report does provide some solid answers.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
5/22/2012: Signed a four-year, $4,784,267 contract. The deal included a $1,919,468 signing bonus. 2013: $607,466, 2014: $824,933, 2015: $1,042,400, 2016: Free Agent
I wish I had gotten shafted and been drafted by the Dolphins. I bet I could put up with being called a weirdo and having meetings at a strip club so that I could play a game that I gladly played for free for most of my childhood, and get paid that well for just 4 years of service. Most people work all of their lives and dont make $4.8 million dollars...and thats just the salary. Doesnt include whatever other income he is able to manage from his status.
A lot of people in this world put up with a lot more than what you are speculating to have happened here, for a whole lot less compensation.
Sorry...I respect your opinion, and those of many others on this topic...but I just cannot personally relate to the notion that Jonathan Martin somehow got shafted by having to go play football in South Florida for an NFL football team for nearly $5 million dollars. That is the dream of so many players that they would give anything to make a reality, and this guy walked away from it..and for what? Because Richie called him names?
I know more is still yet to come out on this. I still reserve the right to change my position based upon what we ultimately come to find out. But if it is as you described it...which seems like a pretty fair analysis...then I personally hold true to my original position that this guy was never cut out to play in the NFL.
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KCitons
Footballguy
That's not a very open minded comment Chuck. You're comparing your life to that of an NFL player and saying you would gladly change places. That's only because your life probably falls far short of what an NFL player experiences. (this isn't an insult, my life is the same)
In order to make a fair comparison, you need to compare Martins life to that of another NFL player. When you take away the money, the fame, and the fact that you are playing football in the NFL, what you are left with is a unfair difference between two NFL locker rooms. Martin could have been drafted by a different team. The Bills took an OT the pick right before Martin, the Steelers took an OT about 12 picks later. Both of those players are paid similar salaries, but they may not be subjected to the same treatment as Martin.
I did see a new twitter report today (sorry, I don't remember who posted it). That the interview between Wells and Incognito has been cancelled for this week. Wells also canceled interviews with other Dolphins players and reports are saying that the Investigation will not be concluded until after the end of the season.
I am also seeing reports that Martin is refusing to hand over text messages to Wells. Some are speculating the Martin is trying to hide something. Nobody knows for certain. Wells may have asked for all of Martins phone records and they refused. Or this could be the start of Martin moving towards a law suit, since this investigation is moving rather slowly.
In order to make a fair comparison, you need to compare Martins life to that of another NFL player. When you take away the money, the fame, and the fact that you are playing football in the NFL, what you are left with is a unfair difference between two NFL locker rooms. Martin could have been drafted by a different team. The Bills took an OT the pick right before Martin, the Steelers took an OT about 12 picks later. Both of those players are paid similar salaries, but they may not be subjected to the same treatment as Martin.
I did see a new twitter report today (sorry, I don't remember who posted it). That the interview between Wells and Incognito has been cancelled for this week. Wells also canceled interviews with other Dolphins players and reports are saying that the Investigation will not be concluded until after the end of the season.
I am also seeing reports that Martin is refusing to hand over text messages to Wells. Some are speculating the Martin is trying to hide something. Nobody knows for certain. Wells may have asked for all of Martins phone records and they refused. Or this could be the start of Martin moving towards a law suit, since this investigation is moving rather slowly.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
scroll during a football life on the oilers noted league appointed independent investigator ted wells has cancelled his follow up interview with incognito after his latest meeting with martin.
also, i think 12-16 is the date they have to make their final decision on whether to allow him back to the team or release him.
also, i think 12-16 is the date they have to make their final decision on whether to allow him back to the team or release him.
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fatness
Footballguy
There was another media report that Wells had met with Incognito a second time Thursday of last week. I do not have the link.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
There is an entire locker room, coaching staff, and fan base that wishes that the Bills or Steelers had wound up with Martin instead of the Dolphins. We would have been far, far better off drafting a ham sandwich than that guy.
Some may want to say Martin got shafted by being drafted by the Dolphins. Others will say that the Dolphins got shafted by drafting Martin. As of today, I fall into the second group, and the distance in my opinion is widening.
No, I am not an NFL player so I cannot relate on that level...but there are 53 other NFL players in that locker room that seem to be handling it just fine. None have chosen to stand behind Martin, many have chosen to stand behind Incognito, and the team itself as well as the OL seems to have come together and become a lot better without both of those guys in the locker room. Had the locker room splintered and the team tanked, which is what I had expected to happen, I would lean much farther toward a major locker room problem. The opposite occurred, while all the while the team remained unified that one of these players was a problem, and the other was not.
So, pardon me if my closed mindedness leads me to the conclusion that I do not feel that Jonathan Martin was "shafted" by having to play a game for a living for powerball money in sunny Florida for half a year with no state income taxes and beautiful women at every turn, and a locker room environment that seems to be more than acceptable to every other player in it.
KCitons
Footballguy
Chuck, you again miss the point. Due to the structure of the NFL, players are not allowed to choose which team they play for. If you or I are unhappy with our employer, we are free to go work somewhere else. Doing the exact same job. Right now, there is only one NFL. Playing Arena or Canadian football is not the same thing. It has already been stated by other players, that other teams locker rooms are not like the Dolphins locker room.
Cordy Glenn was taken one pick before Martin by Buffalo. He is paid the nearly the exact same salary. So, powerball type money has no relevance to the situation, every player taken in the early rounds is making big money. If Glenn was not subjected to the same hazing/bullying that Martin was, then the NFL could be found liable. Martin will claim that he was force to endure lesser environment due to NFL rules.
Cordy Glenn was taken one pick before Martin by Buffalo. He is paid the nearly the exact same salary. So, powerball type money has no relevance to the situation, every player taken in the early rounds is making big money. If Glenn was not subjected to the same hazing/bullying that Martin was, then the NFL could be found liable. Martin will claim that he was force to endure lesser environment due to NFL rules.
Doug B
Footballguy
Tell you what -- with the league slow-playing the investigation, they're doing a great job of keeping this off the front pages. It's taking a lot of air out of Martin's early PR wins.
Someone's gotta write a tell-all book about all this someday. So much is unanswered. And I know in the grand scheme, this is only a six-week old conflagration. But still ... seems like an eternity has passed since any real movement. The thing is starting to settle into the mud. And Goodell has to be smiling.
Someone's gotta write a tell-all book about all this someday. So much is unanswered. And I know in the grand scheme, this is only a six-week old conflagration. But still ... seems like an eternity has passed since any real movement. The thing is starting to settle into the mud. And Goodell has to be smiling.
KCitons
Footballguy
I think you're right. Yesterdays news of Wells canceling interviews and Martin refusing to hand over text messages went mostly unnoticed.Doug B said:
Depending on Martin's end game, it won't matter. The case won't be decided by the public, it will be decided by a judge, if Martin files a suit.
I'm starting to wonder if Martin may be bipolar.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
I am not missing the point. I completely understand it. I just dont agree with the point that any player gets "shafted" by being drafted by any team. It is a dream to be drafted. I dont care if the Niners locker room is better than the Dolphins...they are both an honor to be invited into. An honor that a lot of people would sell their soul to Nick Saban for.KCitons said:
Its like my son saying, "Well, Johnny has Call of Duty, why cant I? I wish I lived in Johnny's house". It is the mentality of an adolescent to feel shafted because you didnt get drafted into the locker room that best suits your personality. YOU GOT DRAFTED BY AN NFL TEAM! Be thankful for that...not worried about where you could have been drafted. It is not me missing the point here.
To walk away from that...for being called names...sorry, I just have a hard time feeling sorry for him.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
Good analogy with Johnny. Let's expand on that. What if Johnny's Dad beats the crap out of him on a daily basis? Johnny didn't get to choose his father, that's not how the system works. Should Johnny just be happy to be alive? Or to have Call of Duty, when other kids don't?
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Show me any evidence other than a potential bi-polar person making some claim that nobody else backs up that there was physical abuse, and the story changes dramatically. In your example, thats obviously a very different case, as has been stated by many people, many times in this thread. No reason to beat that dead horse again.
ETA - Still havent seen anyone else come out and say that the Fins locker room is a bad place to be. If someone...anyone else says that, maybe some opinions will change. All I have heard is the contrary to that.
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