PatsFanCT
Footballguy
Uh, really? This shutting players down 1-on-1 is getting a bit out of hand now.
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DONE DEAL: Randy Moss to Vikings trade (1 Viewer)
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bbuster
Footballguy
I think all you need to do is look at the Vikings last year with Rice. Rice isn't Moss, but he's the same type of WR. He's big and he goes up and fights for the ball. With Rice there last year, Shiancoe managed 11 TD's. Harvin should have similar stats as last year. Berrian IMO is fairly worthless, but someone has to cover him and he had 92 targets last year. Peterson has been having a great year and having Moss should open things up more for him, but he could also lose some carries. Favre needs someone he can trust to throw to even when they are in double coverage. The rest of the WR's and Shiancoe will be getting open more often with Moss and Favre will feel more confident throwing to him. It's not like Favre is only going to throw to Moss.Last year targets with Rice:
Rice 122
Harvin 91
Shiancoe 79
Berrian 92
Instinctive
Footballguy
Something people said about Fitzgerald too...?
PatsFanCT
Footballguy
How did you come to the conclusion that this "heated exchange" was Moss' fault? That's a little presumptuous. And in case you didn't watch the second half of the game Monday night, Moss wasn't being "ignored", the defense and Special Teams dictated the play calling.
Inspiration
Footballguy
There is a difference between making your QB look better than he actually is and performing miracles.
Cassius
Footballguy
I have no idea what you're talking about, but yeah, really, he did.
you wonder why that miracle hasn't resulted in a super bowl yet.
az_prof
Footballguy
I hate this kind of journalism. First, why quote a man who isn't man enough to put his name behind his words? I tell you what, Moss would never do that. He tells a man to his face what he thinks. I would much rather go to battle with a man like Moss than the rumor mongering coward this whole "story" is based on.
Nightly Mistake
Footballguy
I'll spot you Culpepper, but who else has he "made"? Brad Johnson, Cunningham, George and Brady all have are accomplished QB's in their own right in the absence of Moss. If Moss is the maker he sure failed in Oakland.
PatsFanCT
Footballguy
If Cromartie was covering Moss 1-on-1 in the second half, Moss would have had four TD's that night.
switz
Footballguy
Not me.
switz
Footballguy
When Moss bothered to play in OAK he made his QB look much much better.Kerry Collins had his second best TD season and 3rd best yardage season with Moss, and Moss was playing with an injury for most of the season.
John 14:6
Jesus is Lord!
Wow, I didn't realize that Berrian got targeted so much last year!
jurb26
Footballguy
Not me either. Moss is the only WR I can recall any sizable amount of people saying he made his QBs good.
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
Nightly Mistake
Footballguy
Actually it was his 3rd best TD season, and while he threw 20 TD's that year he also threw 19 TD's in two other seasons. It was in fact his second highest yardage season, but it was also his second highest attempt season too. Oh, and Moss only had 8 of Collins' 20 TD's, and Collins had already led a team to the Super Bowl. I fail to see how Moss "made" Collins based upon this one year they played together in 2005.
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
I think it is hilarious that the Vikings get the Patriots' 2012 7th round draft pick!
Bellicheat: We'll give you Moss for a 3rd round pick.
Chilly/Spielman/Wilf/Favre: No, can't do it!
Bellicheat: How about I throw in a 7th rounder two years from now?
Chilly/Spielman/Wilf/Favre: DEAL!!
Bellicheat: We'll give you Moss for a 3rd round pick.
Chilly/Spielman/Wilf/Favre: No, can't do it!
Bellicheat: How about I throw in a 7th rounder two years from now?
Chilly/Spielman/Wilf/Favre: DEAL!!
I know...I laughed when I saw that too.Good deal for the Vikings, IMHO. The absolute worst they do is a 5th in 2011 and a 7th in 2012 for a 3rd in 2011 for the 13+ game "rental." And that's if Moss is gone after this season. That third would be nice, but stepping down to a 5th and a 7th for the sheer entertainment value (and media/advertising buzz that the move will make) seems more than worth it to me.
comfortably numb
Footballguy
I can picture Favre in his Kramer voice :giddyup:
The_Underachiever
Footballguy
I got $20 that says Favre goes down in the next 2 weeks with an injury, then all Moss' value tanks with Mr Jackson throwing to him
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Funny how things work out. The Pats got a 4th for Moss . . . but a 1st for Branch.
Nightly Mistake
Footballguy
And the Lions got a 1st for Roy Williams, and Seattle got two 1sts for Joey Galloway.
az_prof
Footballguy
Oakland was an unusual situation--it would have taken God to make anyone good there. And God is still sitting on the sidelines and not giving the Raider's a whole lot of blessings...I definitely think Moss helped to make Johnson, Cunningham (at the end of his career), George (definitely), Culpepper (definitely), and I think he has helped Brady.Nightly Mistake said:
And yet I'm supposed to believe that real GM's are smarter than fantasy GM's. Right . . .And the Lions got a 1st for Roy Williams, and Seattle got two 1sts for Joey Galloway.
Nightly Mistake
Footballguy
I guess it depends upon whether you think Jerry Jones is a "real GM" or not.And yet I'm supposed to believe that real GM's are smarter than fantasy GM's. Right . . .And the Lions got a 1st for Roy Williams, and Seattle got two 1sts for Joey Galloway.
Gopher State
Footballguy
Billick: Favre-Moss is perfect combo
Minneapolis Star & Tribune
Brian Billick served as Randy Moss' first offensive coordinator in the NFL with the Vikings and with the wide receiver now headed back to Minnesota the current Fox analyst sees big production for the Moss-Brett Favre duo.
“It’s the perfect combination because you need to have a Tom Brady, Brett Favre stature at quarterback to deal with Randy," Billick said Wednesday morning. "You just can’t put anybody there. Tom Brady was able to do it, that was a big component. Brett will be able to do that. What Randy will dictate coverage-wise will be huge for the Vikings with their ability to run the ball.
"The conundrum it’s going to place on defensive coordinators that say, ‘OK, I’ve got to roll coverage to Randy Moss but in doing so I’m limiting the box to stop Adrian Peterson. And by the way, Visanthe Shiancoe and if Sidney Rice comes back and …’ You spread them in three wides. When you’re able to spread a team in three wides with a Moss, Shiancoe, Harvin, Rice and now in a single back and by the way I’m going to handoff a trap and a draw to Adrian Peterson. It can be lethal.”
Billick also sees Moss having no trouble playing in the West Coast offense for the first time in his career. “I have a real problem with West Coast anymore," Billick said. "That term is useless, absolutely useless. Because everybody runs elements of it. You can’t look at what anybody who [are] quote-unquote West Coast guys. Yeah, they are using the West Coast verbiage still but even that has been altered. You can’t look at what anybody is doing right now. ... Randy will do fine. That has absolutely nothing to do with it. Brett Favre will find Randy Moss.”
As for the verbiage of the West Coats, Billick said: “There will be a little bit of a learning curve but Randy’s a smart guy. It will not take long and it doesn’t take much to communicate, ‘You go deep, I’ll throw it.’”
Good take by Billick. I can see Randy coming up BIG now.
Minneapolis Star & Tribune
Brian Billick served as Randy Moss' first offensive coordinator in the NFL with the Vikings and with the wide receiver now headed back to Minnesota the current Fox analyst sees big production for the Moss-Brett Favre duo.
“It’s the perfect combination because you need to have a Tom Brady, Brett Favre stature at quarterback to deal with Randy," Billick said Wednesday morning. "You just can’t put anybody there. Tom Brady was able to do it, that was a big component. Brett will be able to do that. What Randy will dictate coverage-wise will be huge for the Vikings with their ability to run the ball.
"The conundrum it’s going to place on defensive coordinators that say, ‘OK, I’ve got to roll coverage to Randy Moss but in doing so I’m limiting the box to stop Adrian Peterson. And by the way, Visanthe Shiancoe and if Sidney Rice comes back and …’ You spread them in three wides. When you’re able to spread a team in three wides with a Moss, Shiancoe, Harvin, Rice and now in a single back and by the way I’m going to handoff a trap and a draw to Adrian Peterson. It can be lethal.”
Billick also sees Moss having no trouble playing in the West Coast offense for the first time in his career. “I have a real problem with West Coast anymore," Billick said. "That term is useless, absolutely useless. Because everybody runs elements of it. You can’t look at what anybody who [are] quote-unquote West Coast guys. Yeah, they are using the West Coast verbiage still but even that has been altered. You can’t look at what anybody is doing right now. ... Randy will do fine. That has absolutely nothing to do with it. Brett Favre will find Randy Moss.”
As for the verbiage of the West Coats, Billick said: “There will be a little bit of a learning curve but Randy’s a smart guy. It will not take long and it doesn’t take much to communicate, ‘You go deep, I’ll throw it.’”
Good take by Billick. I can see Randy coming up BIG now.
Gopher State
Footballguy
vegas would love you
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Based on:1. Childress is his former OC and QB coach.2. They run the same offense that he has run for his entire career. So he more familiar with it.3. When McNabb was with Philly and they were discussing trades, guys like Shefter and SalPal were quoting sources close to McNabb as saying that he wanted to go to Minny.4. He hasn't signed an extension with Washington, which is foolish, 1.) given the labor situation for next season (he probably would want a contract in place) and 2.)given his injury history. It's not like Washington doesn't want to extend him. 5. It's not unreasonable to believe that the Vikings are closer to a Superbowl then the Redskins. The Redskins are changing their offense and defense which means they have to change a bunch of their personnel to fit the scheme.Based on this, I believe McNabb will go to Minny.Carolina Hustler said:
nysportsfan
Footballguy
I agree. What's worse is that Cromartie stopped himbicycle_seat_sniffer said:
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
I thought we got a 3rd for moss and a 4th for maroney.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
I'd be more shocked at that deal than I was at the moss trade.and I was pretty surprised by the moss trade.harryhood said:
Touchdown Syndrome
Footballguy
Schefter has said there's no way VJ goes to the Pats, fwiw.
identikit
Footballguy
Report: Moss dissed Belichick on plane back from Miami
Posted by Mike Florio on October 7, 2010 9:05 AM ET
We reported on Wednesday that the trade of Randy Moss from New England to Minnesota was fueled by the fact that Moss was becoming a bigger distraction for the team, and specifically for coach Bill Belichick.
Former Patriots receiver Troy Brown has added some substantial meat to that generalized bone, reporting via CSNNE.com that Moss ignored Belichick on the plane back from Miami after Monday night's 41-14 win.
"Apparently, Belichick came to the back of the plane to speak with Randy and Randy just pretty much ignored him and didn't respond to anything he had to say," Brown said.
"I guess there were a few other members of the team -- some front-office people and maybe some players -- that tried to talk to him, just talk to him in general, and he didn't respond to those guys, either," Brown added.
Mike Reiss of ESPNBoston.com also has reported that Moss and quarterbacks coach Bill O'Brien had a heated exchange at halftime of the Monday night game.
It's classic Moss behavior, and he's smart enough to know that, with trade talks percolating, his behavior would be enough to get the deal done.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/...ack-from-miami/
Posted by Mike Florio on October 7, 2010 9:05 AM ET
We reported on Wednesday that the trade of Randy Moss from New England to Minnesota was fueled by the fact that Moss was becoming a bigger distraction for the team, and specifically for coach Bill Belichick.
Former Patriots receiver Troy Brown has added some substantial meat to that generalized bone, reporting via CSNNE.com that Moss ignored Belichick on the plane back from Miami after Monday night's 41-14 win.
"Apparently, Belichick came to the back of the plane to speak with Randy and Randy just pretty much ignored him and didn't respond to anything he had to say," Brown said.
"I guess there were a few other members of the team -- some front-office people and maybe some players -- that tried to talk to him, just talk to him in general, and he didn't respond to those guys, either," Brown added.
Mike Reiss of ESPNBoston.com also has reported that Moss and quarterbacks coach Bill O'Brien had a heated exchange at halftime of the Monday night game.
It's classic Moss behavior, and he's smart enough to know that, with trade talks percolating, his behavior would be enough to get the deal done.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/...ack-from-miami/
footballnerd
Footballguy
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Here's where I think this has the potential to come back and haunt the Pats. It's a debate based largely if not entirely on numbers, so it inherently has issues.
In the 5 years in the Brady/BB era that NE advanced to the AFCC game (01, 03, 04, 06, 07), the defense allowed on average 16.0 ppg on the season.
In the 4 years in the Brady/BB era that the Pats made it to the AFCC game pre-Moss (01, 03, 04, 06), the team averaged 24.1 ppg scored on the season.
In the 3 years in the Brady/BB/Moss era (07, 09, 10), NE has averaged 31.9 ppg. Even if you toss out the 07 season entirely, NE has averaged 27.9 ppg.
This year, the Pats are allowing an average of 24.0 ppg but have yet to hit a stretch of high flying, high scoring teams (unless people see CIN, NYJ, BUF, and MIA as teams at the top of the scoring food chain).
A case could be made that NE has averaged a TD more per game with Moss in the lineup compared to the teams that advanced for deep runs in the post season before he got there. (I am not sure Moss enabled the team to score another 7 ppg. But that might not be that far off.) Certainly there are a lot of other players on offense now compared to the 01-06 era teams that need to be considered and factored in (which I won't do here).
If Moss really is a key part of the added scoring (which he may be) and the Pats scoring drops of and the defense continues to be porous and gets lit up by the better teams, the Patriots could easily struggle to be a .500 team.
All the talk that they will be better without him seems a bit off base to me. I don't see how NE - Moss = a better team and more wins. Moss had nothing to do with the defense allowing more points. Sure, the Pats might get more creatinve and spread the ball out more, but I doubt that will yield MORE points than if Moss were here (even if his numbers weren't great).
In the 5 years in the Brady/BB era that NE advanced to the AFCC game (01, 03, 04, 06, 07), the defense allowed on average 16.0 ppg on the season.
In the 4 years in the Brady/BB era that the Pats made it to the AFCC game pre-Moss (01, 03, 04, 06), the team averaged 24.1 ppg scored on the season.
In the 3 years in the Brady/BB/Moss era (07, 09, 10), NE has averaged 31.9 ppg. Even if you toss out the 07 season entirely, NE has averaged 27.9 ppg.
This year, the Pats are allowing an average of 24.0 ppg but have yet to hit a stretch of high flying, high scoring teams (unless people see CIN, NYJ, BUF, and MIA as teams at the top of the scoring food chain).
A case could be made that NE has averaged a TD more per game with Moss in the lineup compared to the teams that advanced for deep runs in the post season before he got there. (I am not sure Moss enabled the team to score another 7 ppg. But that might not be that far off.) Certainly there are a lot of other players on offense now compared to the 01-06 era teams that need to be considered and factored in (which I won't do here).
If Moss really is a key part of the added scoring (which he may be) and the Pats scoring drops of and the defense continues to be porous and gets lit up by the better teams, the Patriots could easily struggle to be a .500 team.
All the talk that they will be better without him seems a bit off base to me. I don't see how NE - Moss = a better team and more wins. Moss had nothing to do with the defense allowing more points. Sure, the Pats might get more creatinve and spread the ball out more, but I doubt that will yield MORE points than if Moss were here (even if his numbers weren't great).
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Forgot to mention that MIN has added a clause to Moss' contract that they CANNOT franchise him. He may end up being a 12 game rental.
footballnerd
Footballguy
This is where I'm thinking Moss didn't feel he had the best chance of winning a championship with the Pats and wanted to go elsewhere. The defense is young and he doesn't have a whole lot of quality years left to win one. Maybe I'm mixing up basketball player mentality with football. I know LT is having fun playing in his situation. But then again at 1-2 Vikings aren't off to a great start.
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CaptainHook
Footballguy
That was a really disappointing article. I was hoping for detailed analysis of the offense...instead i just got stats they made up or arbitrarily decided were important because they made moss look bad.
mozzy84
Footballguy
I'll take that bet, shoot me a pm
harryhood
Footballguy
Really?
Neofight
Footballguy
Thanks David, that is an interesting read. It put some metrics to what I thought I was seeing so far this year, particularly in that Jets game.The question now is: was Moss slacking off (or lacking in concentration) a bit, whether intentionally or subconsciously? He said in the presser today that he was not hurt - that it's a business - but I think maybe his actions on the field, in that airplane and behind closed doors (allegedly on those last two) tell a different story. Perhaps the trade rumors/lack of an extension were affecting his play. Of those four drops the article mentions, two were in the end zone. Very un-Moss-like.
Perhaps he is just not a premier WR any longer.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Moss was unhappy even in training camp. He busted his hump in camp and thought that would get him a new deal. By the time the season started and no deal was on the horizon, he asked for a trade and from the sounds of it the Pats have been trying to deal him since his blow up after the Bengals game. Who knows how much that impacted his on-field performance, whether Brady looked at him less, and whether Moss' effort remained high.
