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Downgrade all Panthers (more than you already had) (1 Viewer)

solorca

Footballguy
Ryan Kalil is likely heading to IR as a result of a foot injury. He's the Panthers best lineman, and without him, the entire offense will be affected in a massive way. Expect Geoff Hangartner to move to Center (he was playing terrible at RG and was at risk of losing his job), with a Gary Williams taking over for him.

The line has been bad so far this year, it's about to get a lot worse.

 
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Actually, this could mean an upgrade for their defensive players. The offense being less productive means more snaps for the defense.

 
Time to sell Steve Smith for .75 cents on the dollar.
I would say that Smith would be a good candidate to get more receptions, taking advantage of him with some quick hit passes (which he has been very good at over the years). This coaching staff is unlikely to do that though, because they will need to spend their time creating statue of liberty plays and figuring out more ways to fail out of the read option.
 
Not to diminish this loss because Kalil is very good but if you're a Cam, Williams or Stewart owner how much worse could things get? Maybe you lose some hope for Smith or Olsen but for the RBs in particular it's not like either one of them was doing much. And Cam was having all sorts of issues lately.

 
Not to diminish this loss because Kalil is very good but if you're a Cam, Williams or Stewart owner how much worse could things get? Maybe you lose some hope for Smith or Olsen but for the RBs in particular it's not like either one of them was doing much. And Cam was having all sorts of issues lately.
You make a good point.I think the one person with a chance to benefit from this would be Jonathan Stewart. He is a good receiver out of the backfield and it's possible they use him as a dumpoff option when there is extra pressure. Unfortunately, this is likely to hurt Greg Olsen as he typically takes on more of a blocker role when the offensive line is missing players to injuries (last year, his numbers took a nosedive when Jeff Otah went down). The HOPE was that Carolina would re-evaluate the read option during the bye week and get back to a power running game (which benefits both backs quite a bit)...but with Kalil going down, the running game is likely to suffer regardless at this point.
 
I think we will see a lot more dunk and dunk from this offense than we have before. Even before kalil went down Rivera said that's where they were headed. But now with him down there will be even less time for cam to let a play develop. Smith, Olsen, and the RBS will be hot reads for him.

I actually think The RBS will profit from this in the passing game (specifically Stewart)

 
I think we will see a lot more dunk and dunk from this offense than we have before. Even before kalil went down Rivera said that's where they were headed. But now with him down there will be even less time for cam to let a play develop. Smith, Olsen, and the RBS will be hot reads for him. I actually think The RBS will profit from this in the passing game (specifically Stewart)
I was thinking the same about J Stew and his receiving ability.
 
Unfortunately, this is likely to hurt Greg Olsen as he typically takes on more of a blocker role when the offensive line is missing players to injuries (last year, his numbers took a nosedive when Jeff Otah went down).
You would think that Carolina would add a blocking TE to the lineup and Olsen would be the biggest benefit, but history has shown that you are probably correct.
 
He's a center. While it will hurt it isn't like they lost an all-pro left tackle.

maybe they will stop running that horrible read option 30 times a game with Kalil out.

 
He's a center. While it will hurt it isn't like they lost an all-pro left tackle.maybe they will stop running that horrible read option 30 times a game with Kalil out.
He's arguable the best center in the league. Usually, the problems with center are the snaps. Fortunately Hangartner has the bye week and has played the position in the past. Unfortunately he was out last week with a knee injury. This impacts the run game more than anything IMO. It's one thing for a center to fire off a snap and pass protect. It's another to fire off the ball and run block. There is no one on the Carolina offensive line that was athletic as Kalil. This has filled gaps written all over it with the o-line never getting to the second level.
 
He's a center. While it will hurt it isn't like they lost an all-pro left tackle.maybe they will stop running that horrible read option 30 times a game with Kalil out.
LT is important for protecting the QB, but center is the glue of the OL. I think defenses are going to have a field day against Carolina now.
 
I think we will see a lot more dunk and dunk from this offense than we have before. Even before kalil went down Rivera said that's where they were headed. But now with him down there will be even less time for cam to let a play develop. Smith, Olsen, and the RBS will be hot reads for him. I actually think The RBS will profit from this in the passing game (specifically Stewart)
I was thinking the same about J Stew and his receiving ability.
Stewart has been targeted four times in three games. This coaching staff with this offense has no clue how to utilize Stewart or DeAngelo, and expecting that the light bulb will suddenly go on in their heads and figure it out is probably asking for too much.
 
I think we will see a lot more dunk and dunk from this offense than we have before. Even before kalil went down Rivera said that's where they were headed. But now with him down there will be even less time for cam to let a play develop. Smith, Olsen, and the RBS will be hot reads for him. I actually think The RBS will profit from this in the passing game (specifically Stewart)
I was thinking the same about J Stew and his receiving ability.
Stewart has been targeted four times in three games. This coaching staff with this offense has no clue how to utilize Stewart or DeAngelo, and expecting that the light bulb will suddenly go on in their heads and figure it out is probably asking for too much.
The only hope here is that being FORCED to look this problem in the face with Kalil's loss might flip that light on.
 
He's a center. While it will hurt it isn't like they lost an all-pro left tackle.maybe they will stop running that horrible read option 30 times a game with Kalil out.
LT is important for protecting the QB, but center is the glue of the OL. I think defenses are going to have a field day against Carolina now.
If it stops them from running the read option so much it will be a plus.
 
With west coast offenses and three step drops an all pro center is more valuable now than an all pro left tackle.

 
I think we will see a lot more dunk and dunk from this offense than we have before. Even before kalil went down Rivera said that's where they were headed. But now with him down there will be even less time for cam to let a play develop. Smith, Olsen, and the RBS will be hot reads for him. I actually think The RBS will profit from this in the passing game (specifically Stewart)
I was thinking the same about J Stew and his receiving ability.
Stewart has been targeted four times in three games. This coaching staff with this offense has no clue how to utilize Stewart or DeAngelo, and expecting that the light bulb will suddenly go on in their heads and figure it out is probably asking for too much.
While the staff has shown themselves to be bumbling idiots so far this season, they have shown that they know how to use Stewart in the passing game. Last year he was quite effective in that role.Then again, the offense as a whole was schemed much better last year, before Chudzinski (and Rivera by proxy) decided to try to get cute with every play call.
 
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I think we will see a lot more dunk and dunk from this offense than we have before. Even before kalil went down Rivera said that's where they were headed. But now with him down there will be even less time for cam to let a play develop. Smith, Olsen, and the RBS will be hot reads for him. I actually think The RBS will profit from this in the passing game (specifically Stewart)
I was thinking the same about J Stew and his receiving ability.
Stewart has been targeted four times in three games. This coaching staff with this offense has no clue how to utilize Stewart or DeAngelo, and expecting that the light bulb will suddenly go on in their heads and figure it out is probably asking for too much.
It's the same coaching staff that got J Stew to 47 receptions last year, right?
 
I think we will see a lot more dunk and dunk from this offense than we have before. Even before kalil went down Rivera said that's where they were headed. But now with him down there will be even less time for cam to let a play develop. Smith, Olsen, and the RBS will be hot reads for him. I actually think The RBS will profit from this in the passing game (specifically Stewart)
I was thinking the same about J Stew and his receiving ability.
Stewart has been targeted four times in three games. This coaching staff with this offense has no clue how to utilize Stewart or DeAngelo, and expecting that the light bulb will suddenly go on in their heads and figure it out is probably asking for too much.
It's the same coaching staff that got J Stew to 47 receptions last year, right?
Yup and it's the same staff that also brought in Tolbert this year. I highlighted this in another thread but Tolbert has been targeted 12 times in the passing game this year. He's killing JStew's value, which was primarily in PPR anyway.
 
The value of John Stewart can get lower?

The guy is almost droppable at this point. Outside PPR, he probably is. [Even the latter, last year is very very likely his ceiling in pass game]

 
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This ain't last year. Stewart has been virtually non-existent in the passing game this year, outside of the one TD reception against the awful Saints defense.

 
I think we will see a lot more dunk and dunk from this offense than we have before. Even before kalil went down Rivera said that's where they were headed. But now with him down there will be even less time for cam to let a play develop. Smith, Olsen, and the RBS will be hot reads for him. I actually think The RBS will profit from this in the passing game (specifically Stewart)
I was thinking the same about J Stew and his receiving ability.
Stewart has been targeted four times in three games. This coaching staff with this offense has no clue how to utilize Stewart or DeAngelo, and expecting that the light bulb will suddenly go on in their heads and figure it out is probably asking for too much.
:goodposting:
 
This ain't last year. Stewart has been virtually non-existent in the passing game this year, outside of the one TD reception against the awful Saints defense.
Kinda hard to catch passes when you're on the sideline with an injury. He's missed 2 games, but in games he's played he's averaging 10 yards per reception (very limited sample, though).
 
This ain't last year. Stewart has been virtually non-existent in the passing game this year, outside of the one TD reception against the awful Saints defense.
Kinda hard to catch passes when you're on the sideline with an injury. He's missed 2 games, but in games he's played he's averaging 10 yards per reception (very limited sample, though).
He was more involved in the passing game against Seattle. Unfortunately, he dropped two of his targets.
 
This ain't last year. Stewart has been virtually non-existent in the passing game this year, outside of the one TD reception against the awful Saints defense.
Kinda hard to catch passes when you're on the sideline with an injury. He's missed 2 games, but in games he's played he's averaging 10 yards per reception (very limited sample, though).
I wasn't counting those two games. That is why I said he has four targets in three games (not counting the two he missed). I thought that was obvious.
 
In fairness, Rivera has already made mention of getting the short passing game in order...so it's likely that Stewart's involvement in the passing game was already planned, even before this.

As I mentioned above, he's the only person on the team I could possibly see benefiting from this move.

 
I think we will see a lot more dunk and dunk from this offense than we have before. Even before kalil went down Rivera said that's where they were headed. But now with him down there will be even less time for cam to let a play develop. Smith, Olsen, and the RBS will be hot reads for him. I actually think The RBS will profit from this in the passing game (specifically Stewart)
I was thinking the same about J Stew and his receiving ability.
Stewart has been targeted four times in three games. This coaching staff with this offense has no clue how to utilize Stewart or DeAngelo, and expecting that the light bulb will suddenly go on in their heads and figure it out is probably asking for too much.
It's the same coaching staff that got J Stew to 47 receptions last year, right?
In name yes...it's like they've completely forgotten what they did last year though :shrug:
 
The one advantage Carolina has is that geoff hangartner has played center with the team before (a few years back, but he played with Gross at least). They are in a better position than many teams with a replacement center, since it's rare to keep a backup

Unfortunately, they now need to replace hangartner at RG.

Regardless, it's a HUGE loss and the drop off will be massive.

 
The value of John Stewart can get lower?The guy is almost droppable at this point. Outside PPR, he probably is. [Even the latter, last year is very very likely his ceiling in pass game]
i am thisclose to dropping him. we have limited cuts. it's a keeper league. we can keep 10 guys, 11 teams. i have had him for what seems like forever now. if he excels for someone else, i probably won't even regret it. he's just worthless. the whole offense is worthless.
 
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'GordonGekko said:
He's a center. While it will hurt it isn't like they lost an all-pro left tackle.

maybe they will stop running that horrible read option 30 times a game with Kalil out.
I think you are off the mark in a very big way to be honest.

In many cases, esp when dealing with the league having so many young starting QB1s and many generally low IQ QB1's, many centers aren't just calling out the blocking assignments, many like Jason Kelce, were also reading the defense and essentially doing the playcalling at the line for their quarterbacks.

Part of the reason RG3 is using an offense that's a hybrid of his college offense and Newton is using the read option is because both are young but also because both are not particularly high IQ QB1s. Unfortunately it's just not politically correct anymore to say a non white QB1 happens to be a low IQ type player but somehow it's ok for people to take a dump on Toby Gerhart or Jason Sehorn as a novelty or note how physically limited a guy like Ken Dorsey was despite his in game knowledge. It wasn't and is not hard to predict that Vick would struggle when Kelce went down for the year, he had a brand new center who wasn't as smart as the last one, with worse hands, a worse blocker and could not read a defense the same way. Just to be fair, I have serious doubts Peyton Manning was ever a truly high IQ type QB1, just a guy who worked very hard to learn one system and one specific set of progressions until he perfected them. But I think now and have always believed that Jeff Saturday did the heavy lifting for the entire O line and that Colts offense.

How well you can read a defense is, in part, based on speed of how fast you can process information. This is what they are talking about when team mates say Joe "Cool" Montana would have ice water in his veins in the 4th quarter and played as if the game was slowing down for him. That his overall vision and ability to read the defense was so complete, that he was literally playing at a different speed than the rest of the guys on the field, even without being the most athletic QB1 in the NFL in the league, hell even his own roster. This was also, IMHO, a feature that accelerated his ability to be a "touch" passer. Montana didn't just get you the ball, he got you the ball in full stride.

You get guys like Vick and Sanchez, playing long enough to prove they can't process that information fast enough, and you see them struggle. Vick less so for a long time because his extreme athleticism covered some of his weaknesses and allowed him to recover. Cam Newton is not a rocket scientist. Kalil wasn't just calling out blocking assignments, he was also helping to play call and read the defense. Also part of the reason he was a Pro Bowler was because unlike most centers, he didn't need help from his guards to block. That's huge for a center and huge for a team, when your center is athletic enough and has excellent hands and technique to block one on one, even at a disadvantaged starting position, freeing his guards to cheat a little to help their tackles and even being able to help out his guards half the time. You get a Lego lineman like Dallas Reynolds, who is a full standard below replacement level, you get a guy with bad technique, bad feet, slow and clumsy hands and needs help from his guards all the time while offering Vick little to no help in reading the defense and struggling to call out the blocking assignments. When you have a right guard in Danny Watkins who is already struggling, that only compounds the issue more.

When your QB1 is the type that rests on his athleticism and is more likely to sit on the TV and watch the couch, you need a crafty and extremely intelligent center running your offense. Some players naturally "get it" They know what they are supposed to do and what is the right decision to make, they just don't always execute. Guys like Andy Dalton "get it" Dalton can and has survived the loss of his center. Some players can accelerate their learning curve to "get it more" RG3 and Newton and Locker are young, it's not clear what that ceiling would be. Some players will "never get it", they will need their center as a crutch, guys like Sanchez or Vick.

You are only as strong as you are up the middle. This is true for any sport. You take a Tyson Chandler and he can literally change an entire defense for the Knicks despite having an out of shape diva ghetto entitled ball stopping chucker thug like Carmelo Anthony, who treats defensive effort like Kryponite on one side and Amare "The Turnstile" Stoudamire, probably the only NBA player that makes Kevin Garnett look like a Rhodes Scholar and future Scrabble champion, on the other.

Usually, the average fantasy player only notices how a line operates when it's borderline egregious ( the Bears under Angelo, the current Cardinals) but often there are things going on each game and each season, within a team's offensive line play, that impact offensive performance that I think many FFers miss to their competitive disadvantage.
Solid post and I agree with just about everything you've said here, save for a few quibbles. RG3 is, as a rookie, already light years beyond where Cam has been and likely ever will be; I think he is a high IQ QB with the potential to be a HOFer. And "When your QB1 is the type that rests on his athleticism and is more likely to sit on the TV and watch the couch"- WTF???
 
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Time to sell Steve Smith for .75 cents on the dollar.
I would say that Smith would be a good candidate to get more receptions, taking advantage of him with some quick hit passes (which he has been very good at over the years). This coaching staff is unlikely to do that though, because they will need to spend their time creating statue of liberty plays and figuring out more ways to fail out of the read option.
CreatingHilarious

Unnecessary

Deception

 
The value of John Stewart can get lower?The guy is almost droppable at this point. Outside PPR, he probably is. [Even the latter, last year is very very likely his ceiling in pass game]
i am thisclose to dropping him. he's just worthless.
DeAngelo is near 30 I believe. And he isn't going to garner another big $ deal. I don't think it's inconceivable that he too is a Panther the next 2-3 years at a reduced rate. They've both already gotten their $$, do they really care at this point about getting 15-20+ carries/game?? (Add that we've never heard a peep from either about wanting all the carries)Even if DeAngelo is gone, you're still looking at a RB 3rd in line (at best/Cam&Tolbert) for goalline work that may/may not be the passing down back in the future.The shine is really off Stewart (even if DeAngelo leaves). This staff has shown zero committment to running the ball.
 
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People will #### on me for saying this, but if DWill is cut in the offseason, I see him having a better season next year than Stewart, providing he walks into a decent situation. He's 29, but he's got lots of tread left on his tires to excel in a better offense.

Also, the guy who said that RG3 is not a high IQ player, and then felt it was necessary to bring race into it....yeah, you've outed yourself buddy. You basically came out and SAID that black QB's are dumber, but it's not politically correct to say so. Moron.

 
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Not to diminish this loss because Kalil is very good but if you're a Cam, Williams or Stewart owner how much worse could things get? Maybe you lose some hope for Smith or Olsen but for the RBs in particular it's not like either one of them was doing much. And Cam was having all sorts of issues lately.
You make a good point.I think the one person with a chance to benefit from this would be Jonathan Stewart. He is a good receiver out of the backfield and it's possible they use him as a dumpoff option when there is extra pressure. Unfortunately, this is likely to hurt Greg Olsen as he typically takes on more of a blocker role when the offensive line is missing players to injuries (last year, his numbers took a nosedive when Jeff Otah went down). The HOPE was that Carolina would re-evaluate the read option during the bye week and get back to a power running game (which benefits both backs quite a bit)...but with Kalil going down, the running game is likely to suffer regardless at this point.
Greg Olsen cannot block.
 
Not to diminish this loss because Kalil is very good but if you're a Cam, Williams or Stewart owner how much worse could things get? Maybe you lose some hope for Smith or Olsen but for the RBs in particular it's not like either one of them was doing much. And Cam was having all sorts of issues lately.
You make a good point.I think the one person with a chance to benefit from this would be Jonathan Stewart. He is a good receiver out of the backfield and it's possible they use him as a dumpoff option when there is extra pressure. Unfortunately, this is likely to hurt Greg Olsen as he typically takes on more of a blocker role when the offensive line is missing players to injuries (last year, his numbers took a nosedive when Jeff Otah went down). The HOPE was that Carolina would re-evaluate the read option during the bye week and get back to a power running game (which benefits both backs quite a bit)...but with Kalil going down, the running game is likely to suffer regardless at this point.
Greg Olsen cannot block.
Whether he's effective at it or not (he's actually improved a ton in that area since his time in Chicago) doesn't change the fact that he's asked to do it when O-Linemen are out. For the record, PFF actually had him rated as an effective blocker last season (they noted that it was the first time he's ever been rated that way since joining the league).
 
Not to diminish this loss because Kalil is very good but if you're a Cam, Williams or Stewart owner how much worse could things get? Maybe you lose some hope for Smith or Olsen but for the RBs in particular it's not like either one of them was doing much. And Cam was having all sorts of issues lately.
You make a good point.I think the one person with a chance to benefit from this would be Jonathan Stewart. He is a good receiver out of the backfield and it's possible they use him as a dumpoff option when there is extra pressure. Unfortunately, this is likely to hurt Greg Olsen as he typically takes on more of a blocker role when the offensive line is missing players to injuries (last year, his numbers took a nosedive when Jeff Otah went down). The HOPE was that Carolina would re-evaluate the read option during the bye week and get back to a power running game (which benefits both backs quite a bit)...but with Kalil going down, the running game is likely to suffer regardless at this point.
Greg Olsen cannot block.
Whether he's effective at it or not (he's actually improved a ton in that area since his time in Chicago) doesn't change the fact that he's asked to do it when O-Linemen are out. For the record, PFF actually had him rated as an effective blocker last season (they noted that it was the first time he's ever been rated that way since joining the league).
 
Can anyone give examples of teams losing a star (or even decent) center, and the effect on the offense? I mean I know saying that losing a pro bowl center will hurt the offense is pretty obvious, but can we come up with any examples showing this?

 
Can anyone give examples of teams losing a star (or even decent) center, and the effect on the offense? I mean I know saying that losing a pro bowl center will hurt the offense is pretty obvious, but can we come up with any examples showing this?
Both New England and NJY had miserable offensive outputs after losing their center. It's a very important position and Injury that saps the effectiveness of the offense.
 
'matttyl said:
Can anyone give examples of teams losing a star (or even decent) center, and the effect on the offense? I mean I know saying that losing a pro bowl center will hurt the offense is pretty obvious, but can we come up with any examples showing this?
Both New England and NJY had miserable offensive outputs after losing their center. It's a very important position and Injury that saps the effectiveness of the offense.
What seasons? And THANK YOU so much for this answer.
Hmm, not quite what I was looking for, but thank you so much for the answer. I had forgotten about the injures, but went back and looked.....Brady threw for over 5,000 yards that year (career best) and Sanchez threw for over 300 in one of the games without Mangold (career best).
 
Looks like Hangartner is starting at center so the dropoff in play might be overhayped.

Hangartner started at center for Carolina (way back in 06) and has started there in Buffalo.

 
'FDC said:
Looks like Hangartner is starting at center so the dropoff in play might be overhayped.Hangartner started at center for Carolina (way back in 06) and has started there in Buffalo.
Yes, but wasn't Hangartner starting at guard? Even if his move to center means there isn't a big dropoff at center, doesn't that create a dropoff at guard?
 
'FDC said:
Looks like Hangartner is starting at center so the dropoff in play might be overhayped.Hangartner started at center for Carolina (way back in 06) and has started there in Buffalo.
This is true, and he played adequately in that role previously. I think in terms of backup plans (compared to other teams in the NFL), Carolins is in pretty good shape with Hangartner, even though he hasn't played at a high level this season. The big concern is that the Panthers will now have to replace Hangartner at RG. So not only do you have a guy changing positions (even though it's one he's played before), you have to have replace another spot.It's also worth noting that the only person on the current O-Line that Hangartner played Center with previously was Jordan Gross...and he's never played that role with Cam Newton. You're right though, Hangartner is a better than average backup plan. It's worth noting however, that Hangartner was playing horribly at RG this season (as opposed to a pretty good 2011) and was in danger of losing his job. Maybe the move to Center will rejuvenate him though.
 
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Another example of how maddening Chud's play calling has been...

I'm not even ready to say Hangartner has played poorly, or Kalil has played well.

We simply haven't ran the ball without stalling for 5 seconds. And we haven't had any play action and/or quick passes. Its just difficult to hold your block for that long.

 
'bweiser said:
'Craig_MiamiFL said:
The value of John Stewart can get lower?

The guy is almost droppable at this point. Outside PPR, he probably is. [Even the latter, last year is very very likely his ceiling in pass game]
i am thisclose to dropping him. we have limited cuts. it's a keeper league. we can keep 10 guys, 11 teams. i have had him for what seems like forever now. if he excels for someone else, i probably won't even regret it.

he's just worthless. the whole offense is worthless.
Same here. I have already chucked Stewart in one league (for Vick Ballard) cause I am tired of dealing with the headache. Simply having him on my team was a stain. I usually am not one to give up on a player that is NFL good, but I have no faith in the dopes in Carolina to grow brains and figure out how to properly use him.
 
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