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Tua appears to absorb Back 2 Back concussions vs Buff/Cinci and the NFLPA terminates neurotrauma consultant that cleared him to return (1 Viewer)

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
I didn't want the Miami Dolphins team thread to be the hub for all the discussions and I hope that this does not happen to other players around the NFL but it appears obvious as we look back this week that Tua likely sustained a concussion vs the Buffalo Bills, we as fans feel that way because of all the other concussions we have watched diagnosed during the football games over the years.

Tua sustained an even worse looking hit last night vs Cincinnati and I believe he should not be on a football field for a long time, not just a week or two.

-Since Tua arrived I have been concerned for his health. He had a broken inner hip socket in 2019 and should have not been on a football field in 2020 but Miami was determined to find out what they drafted at No 5, if you recall Brian Flores was trying to protect him and was hesitant to start him but videos were leaking showing Tua throwing the ball at practice and people obviously in the front office were pushing for him to start right away, he was not even 12 months removed from that busted hip socket.

-2021 Tua had busted ribs early in the season and was never right during at least the first half of 2021 when Miami started 1-7 I believe before they went 9-8.

-2022 Tua sustains what we believe to be a concussion in Week 3 vs Buffalo but miraculously re-enters the football game for the entire 2nd Half and Miami wins to go 3-0 for the first time since 2002 and do so with a rookie Head Coach, Mike McDaniel. That same week Miami travels to Cincinnati on Thursday Night, just a few days later and Tua sustains what we believe to be a massive head trauma with a possible seizure as a result of his head being whipped around and smashed into the turf.

I wanted Tua to succeed as a Miami Dolphin but have been very blunt in the Miami team thread here that he simply does not have the body and frame to withstand the punishment one must be able to absorb in order to play Quarterback in the National Football League. I feel like a father watching his child every time he steps on the field. I worry about Tua and his well being vs cheering him all the time, there's a major difference.

There is an ongoing investigation into the Miami Dolphins and whoever the medical folks were that cleared Tua. I have no information other than what McDaniel has reported and whatever news clippings you all find and link here.

-To the Shark Pool, I've already read posts calling for Mike McDaniel's head so I would caution folks to take it easy. Maybe the NFL and other players can learn from what is unfolding with Tua. I don't enjoy watching players injured and I understand why fans would lash out to try and protect Tua and other players. It's a brutal sport and he was pulled down and flung with such speed, it looked lie it was going to be awful before his head ever hit the turf. Tua held the ball for an eternity and the player who tackled him was locked up with the Center, Connor Williams but I stress that Williams did nothing wrong and was engaged with him far away from Tua but he held the ball so long he eventually was sacked.

I understand the passion and I wish it weren't the Dolphins and Tua this happened to but it did and we should talk about it like we aways do around here.

Thanks Everyone
 
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Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
If you watched the Amazon coverage after the game, think his name is Michael Smith but he was sitting next to Richard Sherman and he looked like he was on a mission, a much different tone than anyone else sitting up there. The optics if I'm Roger Goodell, I might ask Amazon to remove him.

-I'm not saying he shouldn't be the way he was portraying things but he had a tone like Miami or someone had done something very wrong and we don't have bonafide proof of anything yet. The rest of that TV set looked at him like he was speaking Greek. He also looked a little disheveled like he had been running around the news desks and picking up phones from unknown numbers while making hard to read copies of science journals on CTS, he has that investigative journalist look to him and he stuck out like a sore thumb on that panel.

And I'm sure there are many more just like the ex-host of "The Sixes" or whatever that was briefly on ESPN.
I don't think this story is going to disappear in a day or two either.

I would just like to get to the bottom of what happened so it doesn't happen again in the future before we fire the entire coaching staff.
 

Boston

Footballguy
Not trying to be cold or a Monday morning QB but this was an unforced error from the Dolphins organization and they should have known better...concussions are a hot topic in the NFL and what happened last weekend did not look good and then you have him play in a Thursday night game and a worst-case scenario unfolds...they are now pretty much in a no-win situation and they are going to have to do a lot of explaining and they better be dead on with what they say because they will be under the microscope.
 

IvanKaramazov

Footballguy
This was a major knock on Tua coming into the league. The guy is a pretty good QB when healthy, but he doesn't have the frame to take hits, and he doesn't have the athletic ability to avoid hits. That's not a combination that leads to a long career in the NFL.
 

ignatiusjreilly

Footballguy
Donald Parham had a similar looking injury on December 16th of last season. He didn't get cleared until early February. So you're talking around 6-8 weeks.
I believe Parham also had a neck injury as well as a concussion. In any event, all concussions are unique, and it's generally impossible to predict recovery based on significance of the initial injury, immediate reaction, etc.

Certainly, the early reports we've heard since last night are encouraging. It's sounding like he "only" had a concussion, nothing more serious.
 

ignatiusjreilly

Footballguy
I'll repeat what I said in the game thread: What happened on Sunday seems fishy AF, and there should definitely be an investigation, but all of the explanations I've heard so far sound implausible. It seems implausible that his stumbling was a result of a back injury. But it also sounds implausible that the unaffiliated neurological consultant was pressured by the team to clear him, and it also sounds implausible that Tua was like, "I'm fine" and the UNC was like, "Whatever you say, sport!"

All of which means that either one of those implausible scenarios are true, or something else happened that we're not considering. I'll wait until the investigation wraps before drawing any conclusions.

FWIW, my friend's wife, who is a doctor (radiologist, but still) thinks he would not have been discharged from the hospital last night if the MRI indicated two concussions. No idea if that's true, just passing it along
 

wlwiles

Footballguy
I heard about the hit he took during the Bills game but didn't see the replay of him getting back up, heading toward the huddle, and falling to his knees along the way until they showed it again after yesterday's injury. All I can say is, that him falling while going to the huddle looked very very bad, I don't know how else to say it other than that. But I'm watching it after the fact, after his hit that he took last night, so now after he's been stretchered off the field in a neck brace and hearing all the talking, seeing a replay of last week's hit and him stumbling it looks like "oh well of course how could anyone have let him return to the Bills game or clear him for this game". My view is tainted because I saw the injuries in reverse order...
 

Gatorman

Supreme Elite Maximum Tier
I'll repeat what I said in the game thread: What happened on Sunday seems fishy AF, and there should definitely be an investigation, but all of the explanations I've heard so far sound implausible. It seems implausible that his stumbling was a result of a back injury. But it also sounds implausible that the unaffiliated neurological consultant was pressured by the team to clear him, and it also sounds implausible that Tua was like, "I'm fine" and the UNC was like, "Whatever you say, sport!"

All of which means that either one of those implausible scenarios are true, or something else happened that we're not considering. I'll wait until the investigation wraps before drawing any conclusions.

FWIW, my friend's wife, who is a doctor (radiologist, but still) thinks he would not have been discharged from the hospital last night if the MRI indicated two concussions. No idea if that's true, just passing it along
I think that people are putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. Tua was not concussed last week. Period, end of story. Doesn't mean he didn't hit his head, but it didn't rise to the level of a concussion. I've had my back go out on me before, and it looked exactly how Tua looked in the bills game. You tweak something and go down. Now, you either trust the medical professionals or you don't. 2 people in Miami cleared him on Sunday and a level one Trauma center in Cincy cleared him to go home. Is he more at risk now, sure. Is he likely out for a period of time, yes. At no point do I think Mike McDaniel cared more about winning either game than he did about the player. The Bills game, while exciting, is a meaningless victory. We (the phins) will still have to face them two more times if we want to get to the superbowl. The Cinci game is even more meaningless as we are 3-1 on the toughest stretch of our season (4-0 vs 3-1 here is not a huge difference).

It looks bad, sure. But if Tua throws that ball away (as he should have with no one open and all the time in the world), this discussion likely doesn't happen (and Miami is likely 4-0 this morning).
 

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
McDaniel is on the podium right now.

-No timetable which tells me he won't even entertain when Tua might be back on the field.
-McDaniel making sure everyone in that room knows that nobody cares more about Tua than he does. "Tua the Person" not the football player is how he is speaking right now.

He is still saying back and ankle issue vs head injury on Sunday, that story has not deviated even 1% in what McDaniel has said, same exact words come out every time.

I'm going to give Coach the benefit of the doubt. I have pictures of him partying with Tua at Hard Rock for a Lua Charity, they're best friends from everything we read and see, I'm going to still trust him that he knows what is going on and will protect Tua.

"Wouldn't be able to live with myself if I put someone in harm's way. I have a relationship with Tua"
 

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
"We watched McGruber together"

I guess they like this cult movie
McDaniel is emphasizing how good it was for Tua to be around his teammates on the plane last night.
 

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
McDaniel in tears at the podium, keeps talking about Tua like they are brothers.

-Hard to quote it exactly but he stated you never want to be involved in a situation like what he saw last night in Cinci.

I really believe getting Tua on the field is the furthest thing from his mind right now.
 

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
Adamant about this

"He was evaluated for a head injury and he did not have one"...this is a response to another head injury question regarding Buffalo game.
So he said those exact words...
"And when I tell you he was in complete mental concert, talking to us thru it and then played the whole game and did media all week"
McDaniel is saying you can't do all those things and be suffering a concussion

He says he understands the optics and why people are concerned but very adamant that 100% correct process and diligence was exhibited.
 

BladeRunner

Footballguy
McDaniel in tears at the podium, keeps talking about Tua like they are brothers.

-Hard to quote it exactly but he stated you never want to be involved in a situation like what he saw last night in Cinci.

I really believe getting Tua on the field is the furthest thing from his mind right now.

Well, yeah, NOW it is. Last Sunday and prior to last night it was THE priority.

I'm not buying it after what I saw last night.
 

SoBeDad

Footballguy
FWIW, my friend's wife, who is a doctor (radiologist, but still) thinks he would not have been discharged from the hospital last night if the MRI indicated two concussions. No idea if that's true, just passing it along
I don't think most concussions can be diagnosed on MRI, or CT. Anything visible on structural brain imaging, such as a brain bleed, could require urgent surgical intervention. Caveat: not a medical professional.
 

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
Tua asked when he could play and McDaniel told him that was not an option right now

Minimum 6-8 weeks IMHO, easily could be removed from the field for the rest of 2022.

Could it be career ending? Not if Tua is cleared and wants to keep playing perhaps trying to get a large extension could motivate him to try and play thru all this at some point.

-Lot of MEDICAL EXPERTS...Cough Cough on ESPN and other networks, the NFL haters are coming out the woods right now and making blanket statements about many things.
 

TripleThreat

Footballguy

SoBeDad

Footballguy
Tua asked when he could play and McDaniel told him that was not an option right now

Minimum 6-8 weeks IMHO, easily could be removed from the field for the rest of 2022.

Could it be career ending? Not if Tua is cleared and wants to keep playing perhaps trying to get a large extension could motivate him to try and play thru all this at some point.

-Lot of MEDICAL EXPERTS...Cough Cough on ESPN and other networks, the NFL haters are coming out the woods right now and making blanket statements about many things.
If Tua has no symptoms and clears the NFL concussion protocol, he would qualify to play in 10 days versus the Jets. Does anything in the protocol address multiple concussions (even though the 1st one was denied)? I agree that he should miss a few games, not sure how many. And I'd give Skylar practice time in his absence, even though Teddy made several plays and had them in position to win late in the 4th quarter before the INT.
 

osubuckeyeman

Footballguy
The bottom line is the team and NFL can only go with what they are advised by the medical staff. I thought part of the protocol is a doctor not affiliated with the team examines the player at the time of the injury to make the decision if the player is out for the rest of the game or if the player sustained a concussion. As far as the following week goes that would be determined if he sustained a concussion. I suppose better testing is needed or a decision to remove anyone from the field if there is a suspected head injury for the rest of the game no matter what the doctors say for further evaluation. I'm thinking since he was diagnosed with a back injury and not a head injury he was not in the protocol. What are the Dolphins to do? And really no one was crying about this during warmups. I mean no one said a word about it till after the sack last night. Or at least that I saw. I did not see an outcry as to why Tua was even in uniform last night prior to the game.
 

Grigs Allmoon

Footballguy
Tua was released pretty quick from the hospital so that is good news.

They would have kept him if serious.
Just like they wouldn't play him if he had a injury 4 days earlier.. Oh wait.

The hospital is not part of the NFL, team doctors or coaching staff.
There's a pretty big difference between getting discharged from a hospital with an injury whose only treatment is rest, and suffering an obvious neurological injury in a game and being cleared to go back into said game.

(And yes, I am assuming they checked him out for swelling, and other serious issues before his discharge.)
 

rockaction

Footballguy
It seems implausible that his stumbling was a result of a back injury.

I came in to post about this. His stumbling because of his back and falling was completely natural for a lower back injury if you've ever had one. I have. My back completely gave and I just fell to the ground. I've seen it happen in other manual laborers. Back just gives and they're on the ground.

Happens all the time. It's highly unlikely the mouth breathers of the NFLPA aren't aware of this. I'd trust them as far as I trust the owners.

That's all I have to say about this aspect.

It is highly unlikely they got to the independent neurologist and convinced him he was okay to play. The back thing and its plausibility is exactly why Tua was cleared to play.
 

rockaction

Footballguy
By the way, I am not a doctor. At all. That wasn't by way of definitively correcting ignatius. I just saw a majority of our board just assume he'd had a terrible head injury the week before and I personally thought, "that very well could have been a lower back injury." It was the first thing I thought when I saw the replay and they said "back" and not "head." I knew people would be all over that as if they'd tried to hide it.

I could be totally wrong. It could have been his head. But the way he fell and stumbled is not entirely inconsistent with what I went through with my lower/mid back problems.
 

SeniorVBDStudent

Footballguy
It seems implausible that his stumbling was a result of a back injury.

I came in to post about this. His stumbling because of his back and falling was completely natural for a lower back injury if you've ever had one. I have. My back completely gave and I just fell to the ground. I've seen it happen in other manual laborers. Back just gives and they're on the ground.

Happens all the time. It's highly unlikely the mouth breathers of the NFLPA aren't aware of this. I'd trust them as far as I trust the owners.

That's all I have to say about this aspect.

It is highly unlikely they got to the independent neurologist and convinced him he was okay to play. The back thing and its plausibility is exactly why Tua was cleared to play.

I have no doubt that this MAY be a situation where people are misinterpreting video...and I'm aware that back injuries can lead to the stumbling we all saw....but I see three things in the below video worth noting:

1. the player is falling backwards and lands on his tailbone and then his neck; the impact of the neck on the turf appears more forceful as the vector of the neck impact was more vertical
2. upon standing, before stumbling, they player appears to shake his head a couple times
3. after getting back up from the stumble, they player repeatedly grabs his helmet and shakes his head

I'm not claiming the video is a smoking gun, but its possible to watch that video and have doubts even without being unaware that back injury can cause the observed stumble.

I wouldn't be surprised if teams aren't encouraged to modify the screening process to include holding players out in cases where the footage "looks really bad" even if the concussion screen tests give a baseline result. If that happens, I'm not convinced its obviously the right thing to do, but we live in an optics-driven world now.

the footage
 

rockaction

Footballguy
I'm not claiming the video is a smoking gun, but its possible to watch that video and have doubts even without being unaware that back injury can cause the observed stumble.

Yeah, I don't blame people for drawing that conclusion from the footage. I just want people aware that people take knees, crumple, etc. because of lower/mid backs giving out. That's really all. That's sort of why I qualified what I said with my next post.

I don't know any bit as much as the next what he really hurt, and therefore agree further with your post where the screening process gets altered.

I'm also not convinced that's the right thing to do. When Fitzpatrick brought up his experiences on the telecast the other night (the third and one they held him out for when he played for Miami), I remembered that play. He was fine, and they yanked him from the game in a crucial situation (against Houston?) on third-and-one that year. Cost Miami the playoffs, really.

So who knows?

But the main thrust of my thing is that people need to put the pitchforks away when they address the club and what it did. Especially with respect to the independent neurologist. We have no idea what they saw, what Tua told them, what information they had, etc.
 

themeistersinger

Footballguy
Like everyone else I was shocked when Tua came back into the Bills game. When I saw it in real time I thought it was obviously a concussion.

But the way Tua played the second half of the Bills game, he did look more like a guy with a sore back than a guy who had his brain scrambled. So I can buy the idea that what he had Sunday was a back injury. And I'm saying this as a Bills fan, not a Dolphins homer.

Certainly an investigation is warranted.

I've also heard over and over that there is no distinction among "mild" or "severe" concussions. The fact he was unconscious Thursday night does not mean his concussion was worse than somebody that just had headache during the game. Sometimes guys that were knocked completely out come back in seven days, while other guys that didn't seem too bad during the game are out for weeks.

I think a big problem with diagnosing a concussion is that there is no one symptom that makes you say yes or no that was a concussion. Even an MRI with no evidence of a brain bleed at all doesn't mean you don't have a concussion.

Diagnosing from a distance is always a dangerous idea for people with an MD. Diagnosing from a distance without medical training is even less likely to be reliable. I although I certainly agree with everybody that watched the game on Sunday - it certainly LOOKED like a concussion.
 

jvdesigns2002

Footballguy
It seems implausible that his stumbling was a result of a back injury.

I came in to post about this. His stumbling because of his back and falling was completely natural for a lower back injury if you've ever had one. I have. My back completely gave and I just fell to the ground. I've seen it happen in other manual laborers. Back just gives and they're on the ground.

Happens all the time. It's highly unlikely the mouth breathers of the NFLPA aren't aware of this. I'd trust them as far as I trust the owners.

That's all I have to say about this aspect.

It is highly unlikely they got to the independent neurologist and convinced him he was okay to play. The back thing and its plausibility is exactly why Tua was cleared to play.
I have battled back issues for over 25 years—I’ve had spasms numerous times, thrown my back out several times—and I can tell you—the vast majority of the time when I suffer from back stuff—my body stiffens up—it doesn’t become loose and wiggly—which is the way that Tua looked. Just watch the video—his head clearly slams into the turf—and he gets up looking dizzy, woozy and wobbly. As far as I’m concerned—that situation alone is enough to warrant him coming out of that game. No doctor can rule out a head injury within minutes under those circumstances. The logic is bad, the optics are bad, and the decision making to put him back in the game are bad.
 

rockaction

Footballguy
Yeah, no. I've seen people flat crumple due to back pain. It doesn't necessarily make one stiffen.

Neither the logic nor the decision-making process was necessarily bad, given the possibilities of what could have been the cause.
 
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rockaction

Footballguy
And who cares if the optics are bad? What is this, head security theater?

Are we concerned with well-being or its appearance?

That's not a well-thought-out throwaway there.
 

smbkrypt24

Footballguy
It seems implausible that his stumbling was a result of a back injury.

I came in to post about this. His stumbling because of his back and falling was completely natural for a lower back injury if you've ever had one. I have. My back completely gave and I just fell to the ground. I've seen it happen in other manual laborers. Back just gives and they're on the ground.

Happens all the time. It's highly unlikely the mouth breathers of the NFLPA aren't aware of this. I'd trust them as far as I trust the owners.

That's all I have to say about this aspect.

It is highly unlikely they got to the independent neurologist and convinced him he was okay to play. The back thing and its plausibility is exactly why Tua was cleared to play.
I didn't really think of this. I also assumed it was not back/ankle. I have lower back issues as well and I have stood up sometimes and took a few weird steps. It seems plausible if this was a new lower back injury he also wouldn't be aware of how painful that would be and took a few wobbly steps after being lifted up to his feet by his lineman.
 

jvdesigns2002

Footballguy
Yeah, no. I've seen people flat crumple due to back pain. It doesn't necessarily make one stiffen.

Neither the logic nor the decision-making process was bad.
And how many times have you seen back issues so bad where someone that cant even stand up is magically able to run around within minutes? Ask anybody with real back issues- if you throw out your back that bad- you’re going to a chiropractor several times before you can move around well.


 
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gump

Footballguy
I feel like a father watching his child every time he steps on the field.
Great way to put it. He was such a special player in the Bama offense with those WR...but began getting hurt mid-way thru his Soph year after starting off looking completely unstoppable. He played thru the injuries pretty well like vs LSU with the gimpy knee, but clearly wasn't the same player. And then it was obvious that he just didn't have that sense of where defenders were and how to avoid hits. Ending the way you could see coming with the avoidable brutal hip injury. The last year was mostly just hoping he didn't get hurt every play.
 

jvdesigns2002

Footballguy
Ask anybody with real back issues- if you throw out your back that bad- you’re going to a chiropractor several times before you can move around well.

Now we know the real problem. A chiropractor is not a doctor. They don't even get to play them on television. That's for real actors, not quacks.
The link I provided is from a doctor that specializes in sports medicine. If you dont want to spend 5 mins watching it and choose to be cemented to your take regardless of what other professionals and what input people who actually suffer from back issues have to give- suit yourself
 

JohnnyU

Footballguy
Title change requested. It‘s my understanding he didn’t have bac to back concussion, only one Thursday night.
 

ignatiusjreilly

Footballguy
It seems implausible that his stumbling was a result of a back injury.

I came in to post about this. His stumbling because of his back and falling was completely natural for a lower back injury if you've ever had one. I have. My back completely gave and I just fell to the ground. I've seen it happen in other manual laborers. Back just gives and they're on the ground.

Happens all the time. It's highly unlikely the mouth breathers of the NFLPA aren't aware of this. I'd trust them as far as I trust the owners.

That's all I have to say about this aspect.

It is highly unlikely they got to the independent neurologist and convinced him he was okay to play. The back thing and its plausibility is exactly why Tua was cleared to play.

I have no doubt that this MAY be a situation where people are misinterpreting video...and I'm aware that back injuries can lead to the stumbling we all saw....but I see three things in the below video worth noting:

1. the player is falling backwards and lands on his tailbone and then his neck; the impact of the neck on the turf appears more forceful as the vector of the neck impact was more vertical
2. upon standing, before stumbling, they player appears to shake his head a couple times
3. after getting back up from the stumble, they player repeatedly grabs his helmet and shakes his head

I'm not claiming the video is a smoking gun, but its possible to watch that video and have doubts even without being unaware that back injury can cause the observed stumble.

I wouldn't be surprised if teams aren't encouraged to modify the screening process to include holding players out in cases where the footage "looks really bad" even if the concussion screen tests give a baseline result. If that happens, I'm not convinced its obviously the right thing to do, but we live in an optics-driven world now.

the footage
There's so much we don't know about what happened and what will happen, but "The NFL will react to this in a way that prioritizes minimizing the PR hit" is the one thing I can say with confidence
 

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
Title change requested. It‘s my understanding he didn’t have bac to back concussion, only one Thursday night.
I'm Ok with the word "appears" in there for now. The investigation into the Buffalo game was not even scheduled until today, AFTER the Cinci game and you have to ask why was Tua cleared to play if there was an investigation looming?
 

da_budman

Footballguy
Tom Pelissero
@TomPelissero
·
1h

Speaking with
@judybattista
on
@nflnetwork
, NFL Chief Medical Officer Dr. Allen Sills says Tua Tagovailoa was checked for concussion symptoms every day since Sunday. Points out independent neuro expert had to clear him. Once review is done, full results will be released publicly.
The "a few good men" question I would have liked to have heard asked is: If it s protocol to check all players the next day who have been through protocol and Tua was determined to have NOT had a concussion then why would it have been necessary for him to be tested every day for a concussion if he passed normal protocol? There was SOMETHING that made them feel the need to check him 3 extra times.. Sorry but I am not buying his explanation. The players union and Tua's private attorney and their doctors should be all over this because something just doesnt add up. Also, though the female reporter did a mostly decent job I would have liked to have heard the questioning come from a former NFL player with skin in the game.
 
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ghostguy123

Footballguy
I just watched the Tua vs Bills incident. That........did NOT look like a back issue when he was wobbly, mostly because he looked dazed and wasn't even grabbing at his back, not to mention immediately shaking his head after falling.
I have definitely been wobbly and fallen from lower back pain before, but everything else involved leads me to believe that was NOT a back issue, or at best both a head AND back issue.
 

GregR

Footballguy
Have just read the articles on it. They indicated a specialist not affiliated with the team cleared him at half time as not having a concussion. He passed all the tests, etc.

Which led me to a thought. Instead of having just a non-affiliated specialist, I think the NFLPA should take full ownership of that part of the process, with full oversight of the non-team specialist who does the evaluation. They choose them, sign off on the tests, etc, and take full responsibility for their decisions.
 

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