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Tua appears to absorb Back 2 Back concussions vs Buff/Cinci and the NFLPA terminates neurotrauma consultant that cleared him to return (1 Viewer)

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
Miami can just use their 1st round draft pick on a new QB in 2023, a draft pick which is going to be a lot higher with Tua on the shelf for presumably the rest of the season.

Oh wait a minute...
 

BoltBacker

Footballguy
I keep seeing that Tua is too small to play Qb in the league. But I see his weight is that of the average league quarterback.
Whoever is making that argument should not be listened to imo. If RGIII was 6'7" tall and 300lbs he would have been an even bigger target and his career probably would have lasted about 8 games.

Decision making >>>>>>>> size when avoiding collisions/concussions.
 

Insein

Footballguy
I know they want it for the money, but there should not be games on Thursday.
Thursday games in general are fine. There really hasn't been too many injuries like this over the years since we've had it. Probably because most teams are smart enough to rest slightly injured players to give them some extra time to rest knowing the short turnaround is worthless to throw them in there for.
 

SoBeDad

Footballguy
Miami can just use their 1st round draft pick on a new QB in 2023, a draft pick which is going to be a lot higher with Tua on the shelf for presumably the rest of the season.

Oh wait a minute...
I'm a big Stafford fan this week. That SF 1st rounder - it will be top 17 if they don't make the playoffs. But our lost 1st rounder is a big deal in a year with quality at QB and CB in round 1. We might need both.

I think Teddy will do ok. If Teddy struggles, we may get to see Skylar. But I think Tua is only out 4 weeks, at most until week 12 after the bye.

Note that Teddy had 2 concussions last year, week 4 and he played the next week, and week 15 when he landed face first and was hospitalized for a day and shut down for the last couple of games. Mason Rudolph was knocked out cold for a few minutes in 2019, week 5, and started in week 8.
 

ghostguy123

Footballguy
I just watched the Tua vs Bills incident. That........did NOT look like a back issue when he was wobbly, mostly because he looked dazed and wasn't even grabbing at his back, not to mention immediately shaking his head after falling.
I have definitely been wobbly and fallen from lower back pain before, but everything else involved leads me to believe that was NOT a back issue, or at best both a head AND back issue.

Are you a dr?
No, but the doctor involved got fired.......
 

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
They put Hoyer on concussion protocol so fast it made my head spin.

-I mentioned in the game thread that he should be checked for a concussion only because I saw his hands go to his helmet BUT it was a big sack and he could have easily been adjusting his helmet back in place and I was acting like I was a "spotter" and not an NFL fan, just to point out that almost every game they could be taking the QB back for a concussion evaluation and I think they are going to be a lot quicker to remove guys from the field and that's great for long term health but what happens when it's not Hoyer and it's say Patrick Mahomes and he doesn't have a concussion but the doctors want to be safe and they do not clear him back on the field in the AFC Championship...

I'm jaded, I know this but we gotta have the discussion because I thought I was being funny and suddenly Hoyer is being wheeled into the tent and then the locker room. Tua never went into the sideline tent which I think had a major impact on the outcome of his return to the game. Hoyer didn't go straight to the locker room.
 

SwampDawg

Footballguy
Have just read the articles on it. They indicated a specialist not affiliated with the team cleared him at half time as not having a concussion. He passed all the tests, etc.

Which led me to a thought. Instead of having just a non-affiliated specialist, I think the NFLPA should take full ownership of that part of the process, with full oversight of the non-team specialist who does the evaluation. They choose them, sign off on the tests, etc, and take full responsibility for their decisions.
100% agree with this and then if a player is removed and misses an incentive or has issues getting a larger extension because of a history of being removed from games it will be on the NFLPA and they can say they did it for the players own good. Which is the exact reason it will never happen. They want "what is best for the player" until what is best for the player affects their earnings.
 

CGRdrJoe

Footballguy
not to hijack this thread :whistle: but do people really think team dr’s have the best interest of Justin Herbert in mind when they shoot him up with whatever it is that is on sundays to help him get through his pain?
 

VikingFrog

Footballguy
not to hijack this thread :whistle: but do people really think team dr’s have the best interest of Justin Herbert in mind when they shoot him up with whatever it is that is on sundays to help him get through his pain?
Didn’t the team not want Herbert to play, but left it up to him to decide?
 

ghostguy123

Footballguy
Frankly, I don't think anything needs to change with the process.
They addressed the screw up with Tua firing the doctor.
Now, if they want to discuss other safety measures like gear or the field, sure.
But, as of now, they pull guys out who had apparent head injuries and test them, along with the concussion protocols.
Does there need to be an overreaction every time something happens that LOOKS bad? Such is life I suppose.

I personally prefer to address the people who screwed up the current protocol rather than automatically change protocols just cause someone didn't follow it or sucked at their job.
 

Obie Wan

Footballguy
It seems implausible that his stumbling was a result of a back injury.

I came in to post about this. His stumbling because of his back and falling was completely natural for a lower back injury if you've ever had one. I have. My back completely gave and I just fell to the ground. I've seen it happen in other manual laborers. Back just gives and they're on the ground.

Happens all the time. It's highly unlikely the mouth breathers of the NFLPA aren't aware of this. I'd trust them as far as I trust the owners.

That's all I have to say about this aspect.

It is highly unlikely they got to the independent neurologist and convinced him he was okay to play. The back thing and its plausibility is exactly why Tua was cleared to play.
if he has a back injury so serious he collapses on the field, why would any sane person clear him to go get abused some more in that same game?
Coach needs to man up and bench him.
 

Obie Wan

Footballguy
Although not convinced of this, for the sake of discussion, I'll concede that what happened in the Bills game was indeed the result of a back injury. This was a back injury that was severe enough to cause instability and buckling to the ground in the immediate aftermath. If player safety is a concern, shouldn't Tua have at the very least gone through imaging and diagnostic tests to examine the back and spinal column before ever being cleared to play again? How does he re-enter that game against Buffalo? I do not know what, if any, tests and/or treatment was done over the few days leading up to the Thursday game. I would hope just as much caution would be taken with a back/spine injury as would be for a head injury. So, concussion possibilities aside, I definitely think Tua should not have been cleared so quickly as to finish the Buffalo game. As for being cleared for the Thursday game, I guess that would depend on what transpired from Monday through Thursday. Head or back, I am not sure decisions being made here were in Tua's best interests.
Tua wanted to play. his job is already on the line and his durability a major question.
Coach is on ego trip, looking to beat the Bills, then go 4-0.
Coach needs to protect the player - maybe he keeps Tua out if there was $250 million contract was at risk.
 

menobrown

Footballguy
I continue to not think any screw up occurred and last I saw the NFLPA/NFL memo said they uncovered no screw ups. He passed every single concussion test for 3 days after the game.

He's a smaller player and he got body slammed into the turf. I feel pretty certain that play was going to give him a concussion regardless of what happened a few days ago.
 

Obie Wan

Footballguy
My issue is that the film shows gross motor instability, so one could/should argue that the player gets pulled regardless of what he says and even if the exam is ok.
That’s the part that’s preposterous. They do an eval and make the call, like the thing everyone just saw was the mulligan.

“Ok, well he was just stumbling around like a drunken sailor after that hit, but he said he was ok on the sidelines, and said it’s his back. Out ya go, and good luck, kid!”

Absolutely should have made the call based on the actions on the field. Independant observer should be like “that’s it. Out.”

Watching replays I can’t imagine why that wasn’t the case by the Miami training staff.
3-0 baby
beating the Bills
Tua - rub some dirt on it and get out there
 

kaso

Footballguy
Not to plug a potential competitor of FBGs - but The Athletic Football Show Podcast covers the Tua story in a recent podcast. The combination of Mike Sando and former GM Randy Mueller brought up some points that as a more casual football fan I would have not known. One of them being that the short week for the Dolphins may have complicated the process, and opened the door for Tua to play. On the flip side, one point they made was that to clear the concussion protocol, you need to practice. The short week limited the opportunity to practice. And of course, Tua wasn't in the protocol to begin with.

Echoing some of what was said here they also pointed out that if the play doesn't happen on Thursday night, this is one big non-story. But it happened. And it was ugly.

And to steal a final point from them; The Dolphins as an organization may have a tad more credit in their arguments if they weren't hot off the topics of chasing Brady unfairly, courting Sean Payton outside of league rules, having their owner suspended, or being sued by a former coach.

The other item I've found interesting in all of this is how both former players Andrew Whitworth and Ryan Clark have come forward with past stories on how they could get around or work within the protocols to get back on the field.
 

Chemical X

Footballguy
i haven’t read everything, but that DL spun Tua pretty violently and slammed his head to the turf. how is this related to the prior week? couldn’t this have happened any week? it’s not like he collapsed on his own…..
 

ghostguy123

Footballguy
i haven’t read everything, but that DL spun Tua pretty violently and slammed his head to the turf. how is this related to the prior week? couldn’t this have happened any week? it’s not like he collapsed on his own…..
You ever see one of the MMA guys or boxers get pretty "dazed" then go back out and get nailed with a huge knockout blow leaving them motionless for a while? Concussions on top of concussions are particularly nasty.
 

TripleThreat

Footballguy
Tom Pelissero
@TomPelissero
·
1h

Speaking with
@judybattista
on
@nflnetwork
, NFL Chief Medical Officer Dr. Allen Sills says Tua Tagovailoa was checked for concussion symptoms every day since Sunday. Points out independent neuro expert had to clear him. Once review is done, full results will be released publicly.
why did they check for concussion everyday?
if he had back and ankle injuries, but no concussion
educate yourself about the procedure and protocols... listen to the interview with NFL CMO Dr. Allen Sills. https://twitter.com/judybattista/status/1575904061005742086?s=20&t=lZj7vH3Tarj6EWbU0SyWtw the why is at 6:23 or so.

or just continue to soapbox. IDC which.
 

Obie Wan

Footballguy
Echoing some of what was said here they also pointed out that if the play doesn't happen on Thursday night, this is one big non-story. But it happened. And it was ugly.

the fact that players are put at risk every week does not make it right because they don't get immediately blown up to create a big story.

Players want to play.
there need to be some adults in the room to protect them from themselves.
that is, if there is any real concern about player health.

maybe, the league should stop the posturing and just admit they don't care and have players sign liability waivers every week, based on their current health status
 

growlers

Footballguy
I'm surprised that the Dolphin's team physician wasn't fired, along with the UNC.

The UNCs are independent contractors. The entire concussion protocol is a joint agreement between the NFLPA and NFL. Either organization can remove a UNC with no due process (not that I don't think the UNC shouldn't have been fired). The NFLPA exercised that right. The doc responsible for concussion checks with the UNC on gamedays is employed by the Dolphins, and is not the same doc as the "team physician". The NFLPA has no say on the employment of this physician, who is paid by the team and isn't an independent contractor. I would suspect this doc will be/ was already let go, but don't know if the Dolphins would announce it, since they publicly made the UNC the scapegoat already and the negative press is dying down.

Source: I was a UNC in the past
 
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growlers

Footballguy
They put Hoyer on concussion protocol so fast it made my head spin.

-I mentioned in the game thread that he should be checked for a concussion only because I saw his hands go to his helmet BUT it was a big sack and he could have easily been adjusting his helmet back in place and I was acting like I was a "spotter" and not an NFL fan, just to point out that almost every game they could be taking the QB back for a concussion evaluation and I think they are going to be a lot quicker to remove guys from the field and that's great for long term health but what happens when it's not Hoyer and it's say Patrick Mahomes and he doesn't have a concussion but the doctors want to be safe and they do not clear him back on the field in the AFC Championship...

I'm jaded, I know this but we gotta have the discussion because I thought I was being funny and suddenly Hoyer is being wheeled into the tent and then the locker room. Tua never went into the sideline tent which I think had a major impact on the outcome of his return to the game. Hoyer didn't go straight to the locker room.

This means nothing. If I recall, it was very close to the end of the half, so you can do the "sideline" concussion check in the locker room along with checking his back (done by different docs). Regardless of that, if it was identified from the film that he needed the full concussion evaluation with the tablet, which sounds like it was done, then you have to go to the locker room to do it anyway.
 

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
They put Hoyer on concussion protocol so fast it made my head spin.

-I mentioned in the game thread that he should be checked for a concussion only because I saw his hands go to his helmet BUT it was a big sack and he could have easily been adjusting his helmet back in place and I was acting like I was a "spotter" and not an NFL fan, just to point out that almost every game they could be taking the QB back for a concussion evaluation and I think they are going to be a lot quicker to remove guys from the field and that's great for long term health but what happens when it's not Hoyer and it's say Patrick Mahomes and he doesn't have a concussion but the doctors want to be safe and they do not clear him back on the field in the AFC Championship...

I'm jaded, I know this but we gotta have the discussion because I thought I was being funny and suddenly Hoyer is being wheeled into the tent and then the locker room. Tua never went into the sideline tent which I think had a major impact on the outcome of his return to the game. Hoyer didn't go straight to the locker room.

This means nothing. If I recall, it was very close to the end of the half, so you can do the "sideline" concussion check in the locker room along with checking his back (done by different docs). Regardless of that, if it was identified from the film that he needed the full concussion evaluation with the tablet, which sounds like it was done, then you have to go to the locker room to do it anyway.
It means everything
Cheers!
 

AAABatteries

Footballguy
I'm surprised that the Dolphin's team physician wasn't fired, along with the UNC.

The UNCs are independent contractors. The entire concussion protocol is a joint agreement between the NFLPA and NFL. Either organization can remove a UNC with no due process (not that I don't think the UNC shouldn't have been fired). The NFLPA exercised that right. The doc responsible for concussion checks with the UNC on gamedays is employed by the Dolphins, and is not the same doc as the "team physician". The NFLPA has no say on the employment of this physician, who is paid by the team and isn't an independent contractor. I would suspect this doc will be/ was already let go, but don't know if the Dolphins would announce it, since they publicly made the UNC the scapegoat already and the negative press is dying down.

Source: I was a UNC in the past

As a UNC I have some questions if you don't mind:
  • My understanding that the diagnosis of a concussion isn't 100% - meaning there isn't like a blood or urine test that says "you had a concussion". Is that correct?
  • Assuming that's correct, how accurate are the diagnosis in your opinion?
  • How dependent is the diagnosis on the individual being honest in their answers?
TIA
 

AAABatteries

Footballguy
Maybe I missed it but seems like a lot of arguing on whether Tua had a head or back injury. Why can't he have had both?

Also, I've only had one concussion that I know of (back when I was 17) but I've had a bad back on and off for years. If my head and back were hurting my anecdotal experience is that my back pain/issue would be obvious whereas the head thing maybe not as obvious (to me). That's why I wondered how much the patient's answers matter and if they are being honest.
 

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
not to hijack this thread :whistle: but do people really think team dr’s have the best interest of Justin Herbert in mind when they shoot him up with whatever it is that is on sundays to help him get through his pain?
You can't hi-jack a hi-jacked thread. The whole reason I launched this one was so folks could "get it out of their system" because otherwise we are going to have a bunch of folks who don't wear teal n orange wanting to start a riot in the team thread. Don't want the Phinsfans feeling like they had any part of this, the organization has been on a free fall slide since Stephen Ross took over and he deserves all the blame, ALL OF IT!

The sooner he is relieved of ownership the better. I hear he wants to transfer it to his kids or daughter, what a nightmare!
 

SoBeDad

Footballguy
I'm surprised that the Dolphin's team physician wasn't fired, along with the UNC.

The UNCs are independent contractors. The entire concussion protocol is a joint agreement between the NFLPA and NFL. Either organization can remove a UNC with no due process (not that I don't think the UNC shouldn't have been fired). The NFLPA exercised that right. The doc responsible for concussion checks with the UNC on gamedays is employed by the Dolphins, and is not the same doc as the "team physician". The NFLPA has no say on the employment of this physician, who is paid by the team and isn't an independent contractor. I would suspect this doc will be/ was already let go, but don't know if the Dolphins would announce it, since they publicly made the UNC the scapegoat already and the negative press is dying down.

Source: I was a UNC in the past
The team physician is orthopedic surgeon John Uribe, who has been with the team a long time. His name and the Baptist Health Ortho group he's affiliated with are highly regarded. He's an ortho expert, but should know about concussions. And if he should know if back pain contributed to Tua's gross motor instability. I haven't heard if he or a surrogate was at the game.
 

growlers

Footballguy
I'm surprised that the Dolphin's team physician wasn't fired, along with the UNC.

The UNCs are independent contractors. The entire concussion protocol is a joint agreement between the NFLPA and NFL. Either organization can remove a UNC with no due process (not that I don't think the UNC shouldn't have been fired). The NFLPA exercised that right. The doc responsible for concussion checks with the UNC on gamedays is employed by the Dolphins, and is not the same doc as the "team physician". The NFLPA has no say on the employment of this physician, who is paid by the team and isn't an independent contractor. I would suspect this doc will be/ was already let go, but don't know if the Dolphins would announce it, since they publicly made the UNC the scapegoat already and the negative press is dying down.

Source: I was a UNC in the past
The team physician is orthopedic surgeon John Uribe, who has been with the team a long time. His name and the Baptist Health Ortho group he's affiliated with are highly regarded. He's an ortho expert, but should know about concussions. And if he should know if back pain contributed to Tua's gross motor instability. I haven't heard if he or a surrogate was at the game.

there are 4+ team docs on the sideline for each team in addition to the UNCs
only 1 is responsible for concussion exams and he's not it
 

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
I don't agree with Le Batard on many things but I always respect what he represents in Miami since we're both originally from there and same school.


It's long winded but it probably covers many fo the emotions that some are experiencing by this event.
 
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growlers

Footballguy
I'm surprised that the Dolphin's team physician wasn't fired, along with the UNC.

The UNCs are independent contractors. The entire concussion protocol is a joint agreement between the NFLPA and NFL. Either organization can remove a UNC with no due process (not that I don't think the UNC shouldn't have been fired). The NFLPA exercised that right. The doc responsible for concussion checks with the UNC on gamedays is employed by the Dolphins, and is not the same doc as the "team physician". The NFLPA has no say on the employment of this physician, who is paid by the team and isn't an independent contractor. I would suspect this doc will be/ was already let go, but don't know if the Dolphins would announce it, since they publicly made the UNC the scapegoat already and the negative press is dying down.

Source: I was a UNC in the past

As a UNC I have some questions if you don't mind:
  • My understanding that the diagnosis of a concussion isn't 100% - meaning there isn't like a blood or urine test that says "you had a concussion". Is that correct?
  • Assuming that's correct, how accurate are the diagnosis in your opinion?
  • How dependent is the diagnosis on the individual being honest in their answers?
TIA
1) correct. there is a blood test in existence still being tested, but not being used in hospitals as far as i know, let alone on a sideline of a football game. maybe 10 years from now?
2) too complex for me to answer in a forum like this, but often not clear-cut especially when doing the testing in real time a few minutes after the hit
3) a diagnosis of concussion can be made with no self-reported player symptoms if they fail the test. That said, if they pass the test and lie about not remembering the play, or their vision is cloudy, or they can't feel their hands, what is the doc going to do? If the player says he feels great and passes the exam, you can't just pull him unless there is no-go criteria on the film, which was the failure here IMO
 

Obie Wan

Footballguy
I'm surprised that the Dolphin's team physician wasn't fired, along with the UNC.

The UNCs are independent contractors. The entire concussion protocol is a joint agreement between the NFLPA and NFL. Either organization can remove a UNC with no due process (not that I don't think the UNC shouldn't have been fired). The NFLPA exercised that right. The doc responsible for concussion checks with the UNC on gamedays is employed by the Dolphins, and is not the same doc as the "team physician". The NFLPA has no say on the employment of this physician, who is paid by the team and isn't an independent contractor. I would suspect this doc will be/ was already let go, but don't know if the Dolphins would announce it, since they publicly made the UNC the scapegoat already and the negative press is dying down.

Source: I was a UNC in the past

As a UNC I have some questions if you don't mind:
  • My understanding that the diagnosis of a concussion isn't 100% - meaning there isn't like a blood or urine test that says "you had a concussion". Is that correct?
  • Assuming that's correct, how accurate are the diagnosis in your opinion?
  • How dependent is the diagnosis on the individual being honest in their answers?
TIA
1) correct. there is a blood test in existence still being tested, but not being used in hospitals as far as i know, let alone on a sideline of a football game. maybe 10 years from now?
2) too complex for me to answer in a forum like this, but often not clear-cut especially when doing the testing in real time a few minutes after the hit
3) a diagnosis of concussion can be made with no self-reported player symptoms if they fail the test. That said, if they pass the test and lie about not remembering the play, or their vision is cloudy, or they can't feel their hands, what is the doc going to do? If the player says he feels great and passes the exam, you can't just pull him unless there is no-go criteria on the film, which was the failure here IMO
well, that is the key point.
The coach could certainly trust his eyes after seeing Tua wobble around and indeed pull him
until he proves over the next week that his brain isn't now tapioca.
 

ghostguy123

Footballguy
I'm surprised that the Dolphin's team physician wasn't fired, along with the UNC.

The UNCs are independent contractors. The entire concussion protocol is a joint agreement between the NFLPA and NFL. Either organization can remove a UNC with no due process (not that I don't think the UNC shouldn't have been fired). The NFLPA exercised that right. The doc responsible for concussion checks with the UNC on gamedays is employed by the Dolphins, and is not the same doc as the "team physician". The NFLPA has no say on the employment of this physician, who is paid by the team and isn't an independent contractor. I would suspect this doc will be/ was already let go, but don't know if the Dolphins would announce it, since they publicly made the UNC the scapegoat already and the negative press is dying down.

Source: I was a UNC in the past

As a UNC I have some questions if you don't mind:
  • My understanding that the diagnosis of a concussion isn't 100% - meaning there isn't like a blood or urine test that says "you had a concussion". Is that correct?
  • Assuming that's correct, how accurate are the diagnosis in your opinion?
  • How dependent is the diagnosis on the individual being honest in their answers?
TIA
1) correct. there is a blood test in existence still being tested, but not being used in hospitals as far as i know, let alone on a sideline of a football game. maybe 10 years from now?
2) too complex for me to answer in a forum like this, but often not clear-cut especially when doing the testing in real time a few minutes after the hit
3) a diagnosis of concussion can be made with no self-reported player symptoms if they fail the test. That said, if they pass the test and lie about not remembering the play, or their vision is cloudy, or they can't feel their hands, what is the doc going to do? If the player says he feels great and passes the exam, you can't just pull him unless there is no-go criteria on the film, which was the failure here IMO
well, that is the key point.
The coach could certainly trust his eyes after seeing Tua wobble around and indeed pull him
until he proves over the next week that his brain isn't now tapioca.
Did the coach see him wobble at the time? Also, if he did, how clear is the view from 50 yards or more away?
Remember guys, the coaches don't get to see what we see on TV, and they also have a bit of a job to do
 

ghostguy123

Footballguy
I'm surprised that the Dolphin's team physician wasn't fired, along with the UNC.

The UNCs are independent contractors. The entire concussion protocol is a joint agreement between the NFLPA and NFL. Either organization can remove a UNC with no due process (not that I don't think the UNC shouldn't have been fired). The NFLPA exercised that right. The doc responsible for concussion checks with the UNC on gamedays is employed by the Dolphins, and is not the same doc as the "team physician". The NFLPA has no say on the employment of this physician, who is paid by the team and isn't an independent contractor. I would suspect this doc will be/ was already let go, but don't know if the Dolphins would announce it, since they publicly made the UNC the scapegoat already and the negative press is dying down.

Source: I was a UNC in the past

As a UNC I have some questions if you don't mind:
  • My understanding that the diagnosis of a concussion isn't 100% - meaning there isn't like a blood or urine test that says "you had a concussion". Is that correct?
  • Assuming that's correct, how accurate are the diagnosis in your opinion?
  • How dependent is the diagnosis on the individual being honest in their answers?
TIA
1) correct. there is a blood test in existence still being tested, but not being used in hospitals as far as i know, let alone on a sideline of a football game. maybe 10 years from now?
2) too complex for me to answer in a forum like this, but often not clear-cut especially when doing the testing in real time a few minutes after the hit
3) a diagnosis of concussion can be made with no self-reported player symptoms if they fail the test. That said, if they pass the test and lie about not remembering the play, or their vision is cloudy, or they can't feel their hands, what is the doc going to do? If the player says he feels great and passes the exam, you can't just pull him unless there is no-go criteria on the film, which was the failure here IMO
well, that is the key point.
The coach could certainly trust his eyes after seeing Tua wobble around and indeed pull him
until he proves over the next week that his brain isn't now tapioca.
Did the coach see him wobble at the time? Also, if he did, how clear is the view from 50 yards or more away?
Remember guys, the coaches don't get to see what we see on TV, and they also have a bit of a job to do
I do agree though, he obviously saw all that AFTER the Bills game for sure, and could have easily made a decision for the next game.
But as others have said, what's he gonna do, override the doctors who say hes good to go?
 
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Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
Thought I posted this but here is the Mike McDaniel Press Conference on Friday and it's published by the Miami Dolphins which says a lot.
Where is the GM or someone from the front office? Why is a Head Coach with 4 games under his belt answering all these questions by himself?

-His words speak for themselves but I would invite you to listen to this before you make blanket statements.


I certainly have questions I'd like to ask Coach McDaniel but I think these 20-25 minutes speak for themselves and anything beyond this is mostly conjecture. I haven't heard many people discuss this press conference from the day after the Bengals game.
 

growlers

Footballguy
FWIW I don’t put any blame on the coach during the game. His own medical staff told him Tua was good to go. And presumably Tua said the same.
The UNC has no interaction with anyone on the team except the team doc doing concussions that day
 

ghostguy123

Footballguy
FWIW I don’t put any blame on the coach during the game. His own medical staff told him Tua was good to go. And presumably Tua said the same.
The UNC has no interaction with anyone on the team except the team doc doing concussions that day
I don't understand why anyone WOULD put any blame whatsoever on the coach.
 

growlers

Footballguy
caught some of the talking heads today on espn, etc and they made numerous incorrect statements about the testing process, the Brate incident, etc. I would think these respected reporters would get more knowledgable before they opine on national TV about what errors they think were made.
 

Obie Wan

Footballguy
I'm surprised that the Dolphin's team physician wasn't fired, along with the UNC.

The UNCs are independent contractors. The entire concussion protocol is a joint agreement between the NFLPA and NFL. Either organization can remove a UNC with no due process (not that I don't think the UNC shouldn't have been fired). The NFLPA exercised that right. The doc responsible for concussion checks with the UNC on gamedays is employed by the Dolphins, and is not the same doc as the "team physician". The NFLPA has no say on the employment of this physician, who is paid by the team and isn't an independent contractor. I would suspect this doc will be/ was already let go, but don't know if the Dolphins would announce it, since they publicly made the UNC the scapegoat already and the negative press is dying down.

Source: I was a UNC in the past

As a UNC I have some questions if you don't mind:
  • My understanding that the diagnosis of a concussion isn't 100% - meaning there isn't like a blood or urine test that says "you had a concussion". Is that correct?
  • Assuming that's correct, how accurate are the diagnosis in your opinion?
  • How dependent is the diagnosis on the individual being honest in their answers?
TIA
1) correct. there is a blood test in existence still being tested, but not being used in hospitals as far as i know, let alone on a sideline of a football game. maybe 10 years from now?
2) too complex for me to answer in a forum like this, but often not clear-cut especially when doing the testing in real time a few minutes after the hit
3) a diagnosis of concussion can be made with no self-reported player symptoms if they fail the test. That said, if they pass the test and lie about not remembering the play, or their vision is cloudy, or they can't feel their hands, what is the doc going to do? If the player says he feels great and passes the exam, you can't just pull him unless there is no-go criteria on the film, which was the failure here IMO
well, that is the key point.
The coach could certainly trust his eyes after seeing Tua wobble around and indeed pull him
until he proves over the next week that his brain isn't now tapioca.
Did the coach see him wobble at the time? Also, if he did, how clear is the view from 50 yards or more away?
Remember guys, the coaches don't get to see what we see on TV, and they also have a bit of a job to do
the coach in the box would have to be have his eyes closed to miss it
The Coach does talk to his OC
 

Chemical X

Footballguy
alot of outrage over this from talking heads and NFLers. but it is ok to carry firearms, drive at crazy speeds, have 1 car “accidents”, domestic incidents, etc. selective outrage fascinates me.
 
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Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
caught some of the talking heads today on espn, etc and they made numerous incorrect statements about the testing process, the Brate incident, etc. I would think these respected reporters would get more knowledgable before they opine on national TV about what errors they think were made.
Not long after that press conference i linked on Friday, Max Kellerman chimes in on his show that McDaniel answered questions in a "slick" fashion and I thought that was poor journalism.
 

growlers

Footballguy
caught some of the talking heads today on espn, etc and they made numerous incorrect statements about the testing process, the Brate incident, etc. I would think these respected reporters would get more knowledgable before they opine on national TV about what errors they think were made.
Not long after that press conference i linked on Friday, Max Kellerman chimes in on his show that McDaniel answered questions in a "slick" fashion and I thought that was poor journalism.

Someone on around the horn (? I think - I was doing chores while listening) was screaming something about the UNC not being a neurologist. There are several different specialist types who are approved and qualified to do the job. He just has to scream something, because that is what half the shows on ESPN do now regardless of the subject matter.

I would actually have a mild preference to ER being the UNCs and neurology doing the follow up exams during the week. But there is a ton of training seminars preseason as well as in season, everyone involved is very well trained (again, I think the ball was dropped based on the video footage in this particular case)
 

Da Guru

Fair & Balanced
I keep seeing that Tua is too small to play Qb in the league. But I see his weight is that of the average league quarterback.

I can't see how weight has any bearing on his concussion injury.
Because it’s been written such as above that Tua is too small to play QB. But he’s actually the average size for a QB.

Some guys take hits better than others. Tua just seems be impacted by the hits much more than normal. Drew Brees is smaller than Tua and played forever, Wilson is small, Jackson is not a big QB and runs more than any QB, although that will catch up with him.

Body types are different.
 

Todem

Footballguy
I keep seeing that Tua is too small to play Qb in the league. But I see his weight is that of the average league quarterback.

I can't see how weight has any bearing on his concussion injury.
Because it’s been written such as above that Tua is too small to play QB. But he’s actually the average size for a QB.

Some guys take hits better than others. Tua just seems be impacted by the hits much more than normal. Drew Brees is smaller than Tua and played forever, Wilson is small, Jackson is not a big QB and runs more than any QB, although that will catch up with him.

Body types are different.
Lamar Jackson is a lot stronger than you think. He has reshaped his body since his rookie season.....apples to oranges there. That guy is very strong and yes....runs like the wind.

Tua has always been fragile. Drew Brees was a tough SOB. And also knew how to throw the ball away. Tua will not last in this league. Period.

Great scouting department the Dolphins have I tell ya. Take the barely 6 foot guy (he is not 6 feet no way) coming off multiple injuries including a brutal hip fracture....over the 6’5 STUD with a bazooka of an arm and a 4.5 GPA from Oregon....and oh he can also run.....really fast. Three 1st round busts in 2020....three.

Brilliant.

Tua...I am very happy he is ok.....and he should take his sweet time coming back....because he is gonna get hurt.....again. Matter of time. Great kid, big heart. Not built for the NFL.
 

GroveDiesel

Footballguy
Maybe I missed it but seems like a lot of arguing on whether Tua had a head or back injury. Why can't he have had both?

Also, I've only had one concussion that I know of (back when I was 17) but I've had a bad back on and off for years. If my head and back were hurting my anecdotal experience is that my back pain/issue would be obvious whereas the head thing maybe not as obvious (to me). That's why I wondered how much the patient's answers matter and if they are being honest.

Good points. Though when I got my concussion I also injured my back. I actually ended up in the ER twice after my concussion. First time to get checked out after being knocked unconscious and then “losing” an hour of time. Then on the way home I almost lost consciousness again and took an ambulance ride back. Turned out to be ok (well, other than having a fairly significant concussion) after having a cat scan the 2nd time.

On my way out the 2nd time I noticed my back was a little tight and mentioned it in passing to the nurse and after looking at my back she said “wow, you have a massive hematoma on your back”. After figuring out it was a really bad bruise where the blood pools under the skin in an injured spot, I realized that I had a huge lump on my back and I looked like Quasimodo. I managed to hurt my head and my back at the same time. Though in my case, I definitely noticed the head injury before the back injury.

Though I guess my concussion could potentially make the case for someone not being aware of their concussion at first. I hit my head on the ground playing softball and got knocked out. I vaguely remember a crowd of people around me and someone asking if they should call 9-1-1 and me telling them no. I remember nothing else of the next hour. Apparently I walked back to the bench and watched the rest of the game and seemed fine. It was only after the game when we were all sitting around changing our shoes and stuff that I kinda “came to” and realized my head felt kind of funny and something was off. I literally turned to the guy next to me and asked if I had hurt myself. Everyone kind of chuckled at first and then realized I was serious. Once they realized that I didn’t remember knocking myself out or even who won the game, it was decided I needed to go get checked out. Now I have no clue if I would have been able to pass a concussion test or not during that hour, but the lights definitely weren’t on and yet to my friends I didn’t seem abnormal and I clearly couldn’t process that myself at that point.
 

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