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Drunken trading and backing out (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter spOOfy
- Start date
Hey Spoofy,
I answered your other post, in case you didn't see it.
It's a tough call. Ethically, if you were both trashed and he knows this, then I think you could make an argument for backing out of it. I'm not a lawyer, but if there's one out there, maybe they can clear this up. Is a contract valid if one or both parties are drunk?
The trade that you made was not bad enough to be worth wrecking your reputation in the league. Actually, NO TRADE is worth that. You are only as good as your reputation.
Never drink and trade again. Make an agreement with your buds at the start of the night that any trade talk won't be binding. I've seen friendships lost over this.
I answered your other post, in case you didn't see it.
It's a tough call. Ethically, if you were both trashed and he knows this, then I think you could make an argument for backing out of it. I'm not a lawyer, but if there's one out there, maybe they can clear this up. Is a contract valid if one or both parties are drunk?
The trade that you made was not bad enough to be worth wrecking your reputation in the league. Actually, NO TRADE is worth that. You are only as good as your reputation.
Never drink and trade again. Make an agreement with your buds at the start of the night that any trade talk won't be binding. I've seen friendships lost over this.
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fruity pebbles
Footballguy
Sounds like you're backing out less because of the drinking and more cause of the other trade starting to come through. I think it's pretty shady to back out of a verbal agreement and I probably wouldn't deal with you again if you did it to me. But there's nothing against the rules about it.
It depends on what the precedent in the league is. In my league, a trade is a trade, even when your drunk. Unless it is so unfair that you can tell someone was taken advantage of because they were drunk.
My advice, talk to your drinking buddy first, and see what he thinks. He may feel the same way you do. If he doesn't, I think you might be stuck.....sorry.
My advice, talk to your drinking buddy first, and see what he thinks. He may feel the same way you do. If he doesn't, I think you might be stuck.....sorry.
Dude, the trade is done, period. If you are drunk and make a trade, than that is what you did. Trades are fun to make when you are drunk, but they also can hurt your team. the bottom line is though if you make a deal, then the deal better be done. I am sure the other guy woke up and said hey, wow I made a trade last night, sweet! If he woke up and said the same thing you did then maybe you two can talk and agree to make it a no deal because you have not contacted the commish, otherwise the deal MUST go through. Backing out of deals may look good at the beginning, but in the end it will not pay off for your reputation in the league. Someone else will ultimately bring it up, someday, some time!
spOOfy
Footballguy
I'll clear some things up...
I don't know if another deal is going to happen or not. Whether it does or not, I'd rather not make the trade. In this case I'm trading a player I really wanted to hold onto.
If we had sent it to the Commish, I would not be trying to back out. A drunken trade is still a trade.
My issue is, at this point, is it still just trade talks? Let's say you use CBS Sportsline, or some other site where transactions are done through the site. It would be like talking about a deal on the phone, saying, okay, let's do it. And then deciding at the 9th hour not to put it through the site.
I'll talk to the other owner. I had planned to do that anyway (kinda early to call him - I have a kid, he doesn't).
I don't know if another deal is going to happen or not. Whether it does or not, I'd rather not make the trade. In this case I'm trading a player I really wanted to hold onto.
If we had sent it to the Commish, I would not be trying to back out. A drunken trade is still a trade.
My issue is, at this point, is it still just trade talks? Let's say you use CBS Sportsline, or some other site where transactions are done through the site. It would be like talking about a deal on the phone, saying, okay, let's do it. And then deciding at the 9th hour not to put it through the site.
I'll talk to the other owner. I had planned to do that anyway (kinda early to call him - I have a kid, he doesn't).
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njxbean
Footballguy
I do not think a deal is legally binding when intoxicated. If one can prove that both parties were drunk, then the deal should not be valid. Also, you said yourself, no deal is valid until approved by the commish. And it was not approved by the commish, so i would say it is not valid. thats my 2 cents
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
Yep, that's about what it is. Agreeing to a trade and then not putting it through the site. As I said, there's nothing "illegal" about it, but it is shady and I for one wouldn't talk trade with you again. Up to you whether you want to go through with it or not. I'd talk to the guy first and see what he has to say about it. Maybe he's cool with it.
spOOfy
Footballguy
fruity, I agree it's shady. If he came to me and wanted to back out, I'd give him crap about it. I wouldn't blacklist him or anything, because I understand the circumstances. And I also realize that a trade is just talks until it goes to the Commish.
This same guy made a trade in my other league that I Commish (we're in 2 leagues together).
He as drunk then and made an offer to another team, which the guy accepted. They came to me, and it clearly wasn't collusion, but I still asked him if he was sure he wanted to do it. They said yes so it was in the books.
I just feel like I'm catching this one before it goes "live."
This same guy made a trade in my other league that I Commish (we're in 2 leagues together).
He as drunk then and made an offer to another team, which the guy accepted. They came to me, and it clearly wasn't collusion, but I still asked him if he was sure he wanted to do it. They said yes so it was in the books.
I just feel like I'm catching this one before it goes "live."
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nightshift
Footballguy
Talk is just talk until you pull the trigger. Get over it. 
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spOOfy
Footballguy
Crippler made a very interesting point in the Asst Coach thread...
I never really thought about that. Let's say 2 guys agree to a trade involving Tiki (no alcohol involved), but can't get it to the Commish til the next day. Tiki dies. Would you still think it's shady to back out before it actually became official?
I think your on dangerous ground. Gentleman's agreement when a trade is agreed upon you shake on it, trade is final.
The point of Tiki dying in a crash is a bit far fetched. More realistic, is what if he retires tomorrow. I rarely try to screw anyone over but hey "Let the Buyer Beware"
The point of Tiki dying in a crash is a bit far fetched. More realistic, is what if he retires tomorrow. I rarely try to screw anyone over but hey "Let the Buyer Beware"
simey
Footballguy
I don't think there is anything wrong with changing your mind today. You both were obviously intoxicated, his co-owner has no clue about this, and you haven't even taken the step of passing it by your commish (which I don't see why he/she wouldn't ok the trade). If the guy gets ticked at you, he is your buddy and he will get over it. I'm sure it isn't the first time he has been in a conversation where the alcohol was talking more than the brain, and the next day when he thinks about a conversation he is 
.
By the way, I saw your trade of:
I GIVE:
Williams RB TB
My 1st in 2007
My 2nd in 2007
I GET:
T.Barber RB NYG
Pick 4
His 2nd in 2007
His 3rd in 2007
This is a dynasty league you wrote in the AC. Are you sure you want to trade Cadillac for Tiki in a dynasty? I say this cause of Tiki's age. I think Tiki will do great again this year, but Cadillac is a youngster with a year under him now. The only thing I can see Tiki definitely getting more of is receptions. I wouldn't worry about Alstott (who probably will only be around one more year). Tiki has Brandon Jacobs who will be around for awhile.
.By the way, I saw your trade of:
I GIVE:
Williams RB TB
My 1st in 2007
My 2nd in 2007
I GET:
T.Barber RB NYG
Pick 4
His 2nd in 2007
His 3rd in 2007
This is a dynasty league you wrote in the AC. Are you sure you want to trade Cadillac for Tiki in a dynasty? I say this cause of Tiki's age. I think Tiki will do great again this year, but Cadillac is a youngster with a year under him now. The only thing I can see Tiki definitely getting more of is receptions. I wouldn't worry about Alstott (who probably will only be around one more year). Tiki has Brandon Jacobs who will be around for awhile.
spOOfy
Footballguy
Thanks for your reply. Yep, I know I don't want to do it. I don't think it is a terrible trade, but it's not the way I want to go.I don't think there is anything wrong with changing your mind today. You both were obviously intoxicated, his co-owner has no clue about this, and you haven't even taken the step of passing it by your commish (which I don't see why he/she wouldn't ok the trade). If the guy gets ticked at you, he is your buddy and he will get over it. I'm sure it isn't the first time he has been in a conversation where the alcohol was talking more than the brain, and the next day when he thinks about a conversation he is
By the way, I saw your trade of:
I GIVE:
Williams RB TB
My 1st in 2007
My 2nd in 2007
I GET:
T.Barber RB NYG
Pick 4
His 2nd in 2007
His 3rd in 2007
This is a dynasty league you wrote in the AC. Are you sure you want to trade Cadillac for Tiki in a dynasty? I say this cause of Tiki's age. I think Tiki will do great again this year, but Cadillac is a youngster with a year under him now. The only thing I can see Tiki definitely getting more of is receptions. I wouldn't worry about Alstott (who probably will only be around one more year). Tiki has Brandon Jacobs who will be around for awhile.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
I'll be interested in hearing the update after getting off the phone with him.
spOOfy
Footballguy
Obviously it's an extreme example to make a point. But you're right, what if he retired over night? What is he suffered an injury? Since the deal isn't official at that point, shouldn't you have the right to back out?It has happened in the league before that someone made an offer, and then changed their mind and didn't send it to the Commish (no alchohol involved that time). It would tick me off, but it's their right, IMO.
spOOfy
Footballguy
Will do. I called and left him a message. I'll let you know how it goes.When I was leaving, we even tried to remember the deal and had trouble doing it. I wrote in the Asst Coach what I think it was.
My guess is he'll be cool about it (he's a good guy like that). But he'll also be ticked. Not because he thinks I shouldn't back out. But because now he's not getting Caddy, which he's been bugging me to get...
spOOfy
Footballguy
Exactly. The Commish is pretty strict about it (which I agree with). If you sent me a trade and I say I accept it and forward it on to our Commish, it's still not official until he hears it directly from the other guy. If not, someone could send out a deal, and 2 weeks later the other guy says yes after many things have changed.Both parties have to contact the Commish before a deal is official. There is no question about that.
Trust me. I feel bad about it. I don't like backing out of deals this far in. I have withdrawn offers before (before the other owner said yes), but never AFTER the "handshake".
Traders2001
Footballguy
Yoy were drunk , made a bad call , live with it.
Last season i was drunk and under the influence of herbs , i traded Roy Williams ( WR Detroit ) for Charles Rogers , Keary Colbert and a second round rookie pick ( of course it was at the beginning of the season , i would have never been drunk enough to do this in the middle of the season ) but still it was a bad trade and i lived with it.
I say you live with it , like another guy also said you are not backing off cause you were drunk you are backing off cause there was development in your other trade Too bad for you .
Last season i was drunk and under the influence of herbs , i traded Roy Williams ( WR Detroit ) for Charles Rogers , Keary Colbert and a second round rookie pick ( of course it was at the beginning of the season , i would have never been drunk enough to do this in the middle of the season ) but still it was a bad trade and i lived with it.
I say you live with it , like another guy also said you are not backing off cause you were drunk you are backing off cause there was development in your other trade Too bad for you .
spOOfy
Footballguy
UPDATE: Just talked to the guy. He barely remembered the trade also. What I thought it was, it was.
Anyway, he woke up and had to ask if we made a trade. He then recalled that as soon as we said yes, that I was like, this trade stinks, let's not do it. I remember that now. Anyway, he offered last night to back out, which I think I said yes to.
He also was cool with me backing out today. Like I said, he's a good guy like that. Besides, he barely remembered the deal too! His fiancee told him (she was in the room when this went down) this morning that he traded away Tiki last night. And he was like, "I did? Oh, yeah, I did."
Anyway, this trade is now stopped in it's tracks.
It's interesting to see the wide variety of thoughts on this matter. Thanks for the great input everyone.
By the way, had a great time
last night besides this trade. Even if the Philadelphia Soul stunk it up (we're season ticket holders)
Edit for typos.
Anyway, he woke up and had to ask if we made a trade. He then recalled that as soon as we said yes, that I was like, this trade stinks, let's not do it. I remember that now. Anyway, he offered last night to back out, which I think I said yes to.
He also was cool with me backing out today. Like I said, he's a good guy like that. Besides, he barely remembered the deal too! His fiancee told him (she was in the room when this went down) this morning that he traded away Tiki last night. And he was like, "I did? Oh, yeah, I did."
Anyway, this trade is now stopped in it's tracks.
It's interesting to see the wide variety of thoughts on this matter. Thanks for the great input everyone.
By the way, had a great time
last night besides this trade. Even if the Philadelphia Soul stunk it up (we're season ticket holders)Edit for typos.
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spOOfy
Footballguy
Thanks. The thing is, it was a drunken mistake FOR BOTH OF US. He did this without talking it over with his co-owner. I think it's a decent deal for them, but his partner might not agree.In the end, we realized this was best. I'm glad he was cool with it. I figured he would be. If he called me this morning, I'd do the same for him.
I'm sure we'll be laughing about this over
on Monday for poker and the NCAA championship.
simey
Footballguy
Oh, come on. They are buddies who were drunk and talked up a trade, that Spoofy thinks he remembers correctly. Hell, his buddy might not even remember at all, or just bits and pieces (I wouldn't remind him incase he did forget). If I made a trade like Spoof did last night with one of my league mates, while both of us were drunk, I wouldn't be angry the next day if he changed his mind. I'd remind him whenever I saw fit that he is a indian giver, but that is just because I could. It's not like having to keep Tiki is a bad thing anyway.
I think this brings up an interesting side discussion though. What happens in a league if the two drunken owners (or even just one of the owners is drunk) decide to make the trade? Can one of them then go back on the trade?
Would this be covered under a league's normal trade policies? (Such as you need 3 owners to complain and then vote, or all trades executed are done deals, or a multitude of other ways people deal with trading in their leagues?)
I ask based on one particular occurrence in a dynasty league I am in that started up last year. We had one owner who constantly was wheeling and dealing. He'd trade players, picks out multiple years, anything and was always sending out offers. One morning I log in and see someone posted a message where the owner had made a very questionable trade, trading away a few top players to a strong team for a multitude of older veterans (some of whom were probably about to retire the next season.) This trade completely unbalanced the league as it created one powerhouse team (at least on paper) and would force the traders team to begin rebuilding the next season (although his team would be competitive the current season.)
The trader later commented and said he had been drunk when he made the trade offer and the other team had obviously pounced on it. We ended up letting the trade stand after much discussion (as I think we should of done), but the first owner has since sold his now bottomrung team and we have one team who benefitted from the trade that looks to be very dominant for a few seasons.
Should we have not let the trade go thru?
Would this be covered under a league's normal trade policies? (Such as you need 3 owners to complain and then vote, or all trades executed are done deals, or a multitude of other ways people deal with trading in their leagues?)
I ask based on one particular occurrence in a dynasty league I am in that started up last year. We had one owner who constantly was wheeling and dealing. He'd trade players, picks out multiple years, anything and was always sending out offers. One morning I log in and see someone posted a message where the owner had made a very questionable trade, trading away a few top players to a strong team for a multitude of older veterans (some of whom were probably about to retire the next season.) This trade completely unbalanced the league as it created one powerhouse team (at least on paper) and would force the traders team to begin rebuilding the next season (although his team would be competitive the current season.)
The trader later commented and said he had been drunk when he made the trade offer and the other team had obviously pounced on it. We ended up letting the trade stand after much discussion (as I think we should of done), but the first owner has since sold his now bottomrung team and we have one team who benefitted from the trade that looks to be very dominant for a few seasons.
Should we have not let the trade go thru?
You might want to stick to the business side of business law. Generally a court will only allow the contract to be avoided if the other party to the contract knew about the intoxication and took advantage of the intoxicated person, or if the person was somehow involuntarily intoxicated. Intoxication, in and of itself, does not make a contract void.Legally, if one or two parties is drunk entering into a contract, legally, the contract is void, thus, there was never a contract/trade in place.Im not a lawyer, but i did sleep at a holiday inn last night (and i have business law class right now)
Buckeyedawgs
Footballguy
what league was this? leagues have various rules on this. As a commish of many many leagues over many many years I have faced these kind of trades and decisions like this many times over the years. I would easily grant a release of the trade as long as both parties agree as in this case. If only one owner backed out and the other refuses to back out I go by the both parties informed me rule! I base my decision on the timeing and wording of the e-mails. And if necessary get involved in a heavy negotioating process to make a settlement for the two owners involved.
I have always managed to work thing out. Bottom line drunk or not once both owners approve a trade depending on league rules it should be able to be cancelled if both owners agree in a timly manner as this one was.
As a owner I hate it when another owner verbally agrees to a trade with me then a day or two later changes his mind. But since he didn;t notify the commish it is his right to change his mind. There is this one owner in a few of my leagues did this to me more then once. I just learned to ignore him over the years and quit wasteing my time negotiating with him.
One other tip on this matter. A lot of times I have negotiated trades late on Saturday night too late to approve for weekend games. If your in this situation always always put a clause that the trade is cancelled upon a player getting injured. I negotiated a blockbuster one Saturday night and I was smart enough to include a clause that we would announce the trade Monday as long as no studs got injured. As it turned out Marvin Harrison was hurt bad on Sunday that year and since we had the injury clause built in the trade was automatically cancelled with no problems or hard feelings involved.
I have always managed to work thing out. Bottom line drunk or not once both owners approve a trade depending on league rules it should be able to be cancelled if both owners agree in a timly manner as this one was.
As a owner I hate it when another owner verbally agrees to a trade with me then a day or two later changes his mind. But since he didn;t notify the commish it is his right to change his mind. There is this one owner in a few of my leagues did this to me more then once. I just learned to ignore him over the years and quit wasteing my time negotiating with him.
One other tip on this matter. A lot of times I have negotiated trades late on Saturday night too late to approve for weekend games. If your in this situation always always put a clause that the trade is cancelled upon a player getting injured. I negotiated a blockbuster one Saturday night and I was smart enough to include a clause that we would announce the trade Monday as long as no studs got injured. As it turned out Marvin Harrison was hurt bad on Sunday that year and since we had the injury clause built in the trade was automatically cancelled with no problems or hard feelings involved.
