[DYNASTY] Matt Forte (1 Viewer)

[SSOG]

The line is brutal and its week 6. Plus he is 23. He runs, blocks and catches well, now super awesome, but well. No competition ahead of him...Whats the argument again for Dynasty????

The argument against is simple: he's not an elite talent. Premium picks should be spent on premium talents, or else you wind up with Joseph Addai or Marion Barber (two guys who were consensus top-5 dynasty picks a couple of years ago).

Jim Brown in his prime wouldn't have run for 50 behind that line. They need to figure something out to get him the ball. It was hard to watch last night.

Steven Jackson regularly gets more behind a worse line. That's what elite talents do.

I don't agree with that above statement. There's tons of good talent in the late first and beyond. It's not like a basketball draft. But I do agree with all the hate for Forte. His line is awful, yeah, but he was also a product of his circumstance last year.

Sure there's talent in the late first. Chicago can't grab it, because they don't have a first rounder next year. There's also talent in the second. Chicago can't grab it because they don't have a second rounder next year, either.

I'd love to hear what you think an elite talent is before that person becomes the obvious choice for elite talent in week 5 of a RBs 2nd year. So far Forte in his rookie season had 1700 combines yards and 12 TDs. This year with a new QB, new WR core, 2 new OLineman and consistent 8 in the box, putrid Oline play, he is on pace to have 1400 combined yards. The guy is 23 on top of this... He has what, maybe 6 more productive years left in him? And this doesn't make him worth a top round pick in Dynasty?

Some examples of elite talent off the top of my head: ADP, MJD, Chris Johnson, Steven Jackson, Frank Gore, DeAngelo Williams, Ronnie Brown, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Calvin Johnson, Randy Moss, Steve Smith, Roddy White, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady. Forte was being taken before 75% of the names on that list.

 

[switz]

The line is brutal and its week 6. Plus he is 23. He runs, blocks and catches well, now super awesome, but well. No competition ahead of him...Whats the argument again for Dynasty????

The argument against is simple: he's not an elite talent. Premium picks should be spent on premium talents, or else you wind up with Joseph Addai or Marion Barber (two guys who were consensus top-5 dynasty picks a couple of years ago).

I think this rather hilarious.Everyone knows I'm a big Addai fan, and think his struggles have had more to do with Indy team (OL, Peyton's injury last season, shuffling players) than his talent. But here's the thing... for those Forte fan who think Addai is mediocre (and a bunch of you do)

Here's what Addai did his rookie season:

226 rushes for 1,081 at 4.8 YPC, 40 rec for 325 yards (8.1 YPR), for a total of 1550+ yards and 8 TDs

First 6 games of Addai's sophomore season?

123 rushes for 592 at 4.8 YPC, 17 rec for 81 yards (4.7 YPR) for a total of 673 yards and 8 TDs

This was Forte's rookie season:

316 rushes for 1,238 at 3.9 YPC, 63 rec for 477 yards (7.6 YPR), for a total of 1700+ yards and 12 TDs

First 6 games of Forte's sophomore season?

86 rushes for 294 at 3.4 YPC, 18 rec for 129 (7.2) for a total of 423 yards and 1 TD

Now if you want to argue that Addai had a better QB, how is Forte doing this season with a better QB? Worse... If you want to argue Addai is a mediocre talent, he's been better than Forte from an NFL perspective, so what does that say about Forte?

The Barber issue has been durability. Barber has never in his career, going all the way back to HS been able to carry the load. Addai had injury issues at LSU, but at least he carried the load in HS. I would say both are more talented than Forte, just less durable. Forte got his points last season off a heavy workload (110 more touches than Addai got his rookie year), but even as we've seen already this year, though durable, he's not been super productive and it's causing the team problems.

 

[SSOG]

If you want to argue Addai is a mediocre talent, he's been better than Forte from an NFL perspective, so what does that say about Forte?

I suppose that "mediocre" is a bit harsh. Try "not special" instead. Otherwise... thank you for very succinctly restating my point for me.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

Addai had injury issues at LSU, but at least he carried the load in HS.

Addai wasn't even a rb in HS. He was a stud option left handed QB. He almost went to Nebraska to be there QB, but decided that he would have a better path to the NFL as a rb.

 

[Football Jones]

If we're comparing Steven Jackson to Matt Forte in a dynasty league (PPR), I take Forte every day & twice on Sunday. Forte was more productive last season, might be more productive this season (despite Jackson being ahead right now), & will be a more productive FF RB going forward (foreseeable future). In fact, it's not that close, although, Jackson is no slouch & is probably worth a 1st round pick in dynasty startups.

 

[Football Jones]

BTW, besides Forte being in a much better situation going forward, he's only 23 (24 in Dec.). Jackson will be 27 this offseason. Two big factors when considering dynasty worth (especially with RBs).

 

[SSOG]

If we're comparing Steven Jackson to Matt Forte in a dynasty league (PPR), I take Forte every day & twice on Sunday. Forte was more productive last season, might be more productive this season (despite Jackson being ahead right now), & will be a more productive FF RB going forward (foreseeable future). In fact, it's not that close, although, Jackson is no slouch & is probably worth a 1st round pick in dynasty startups.

Forte was HEALTHIER last season. Steven Jackson was more productive when he was on the field. Besides, I don't get any points for what people did LAST YEAR. There's no sense in chasing last year's points.

BTW, besides Forte being in a much better situation going forward, he's only 23 (24 in Dec.). Jackson will be 27 this offseason. Two big factors when considering dynasty worth (especially with RBs).

Steven Jackson's talent trumps Forte's situation. Also, the fact that Forte could conceivably still be a featured back 6 years from now doesn't mean much if you don't believe he's talented enough to still have a starting job 6 years from now. Steven Jackson still has 4 years left in the tank, no question, so it's far too early to worry about his age. Heck, if you're really going to worry about age, why not put Mendenhall over Forte, since Mendenhall is a year younger?

 

[Football Jones]

If we're comparing Steven Jackson to Matt Forte in a dynasty league (PPR), I take Forte every day & twice on Sunday. Forte was more productive last season, might be more productive this season (despite Jackson being ahead right now), & will be a more productive FF RB going forward (foreseeable future). In fact, it's not that close, although, Jackson is no slouch & is probably worth a 1st round pick in dynasty startups.

Forte was HEALTHIER last season. Steven Jackson was more productive when he was on the field. Besides, I don't get any points for what people did LAST YEAR. There's no sense in chasing last year's points.

BTW, besides Forte being in a much better situation going forward, he's only 23 (24 in Dec.). Jackson will be 27 this offseason. Two big factors when considering dynasty worth (especially with RBs).

Steven Jackson's talent trumps Forte's situation. Also, the fact that Forte could conceivably still be a featured back 6 years from now doesn't mean much if you don't believe he's talented enough to still have a starting job 6 years from now. Steven Jackson still has 4 years left in the tank, no question, so it's far too early to worry about his age. Heck, if you're really going to worry about age, why not put Mendenhall over Forte, since Mendenhall is a year younger?

I said situation & age are big factors, not the determining factor. All factors are considered when I rate Forte over Jackson in a dynasty league (PPR). As far as situation, it isn't close. Big, big win for Forte. Age = a plus for Forte. As far as talent, Jackson isn't what he's made out to be by some folks or he would've had the kind of season Forte had last year. And it's not like Jackson is lighting it up this season. That's why I said it's not that close. With all due respect, it's an easy call, IMO (Forte over Jackson in a dynasty). That said, I want to be clear & say that I do believe Jackson is a talented RB.

 

[Football Jones]

BTW, at this point, it's getting to be where both sides are kinda at a stalemate as far as the discussion. Not much new is being presented on either side, LOL. That's when threads can start breaking down.

It's probably best to wait & see what happens. Besides, this issue won't be decided for quite awhile. We'll know who won sooner or later.

 

[SSOG]

I said situation & age are big factors, not the determining factor. All factors are considered when I rate Forte over Jackson in a dynasty league (PPR). As far as situation, it isn't close. Big, big win for Forte. Age = a plus for Forte. As far as talent, Jackson isn't what he's made out to be by some folks or he would've had the kind of season Forte had last year. And it's not like Jackson is lighting it up this season.

That's why I said it's not that close. With all due respect, it's an easy call, IMO (Forte over Jackson in a dynasty). That said, I want to be clear & say that I do believe Jackson is a talented RB.

So, if Jackson was so talented he would have averaged somewhere closer to Forte's 107 yards and .75 TDs per game last year? He must not be that talented, then, since he only averaged 118 yards and .66 TDs. Oh, wait... 118 is more than 107, isn't it?Despite Jackson being in a RADICALLY worse situation, he produced better than Forte last year. Because he really is what he's made out to be by some folks. Jackson also averaged .2 more yards per carry and 1.9 more yards per reception- again, despite being in a radically worse situation. Because he's just SUBSTANTIALLY more talented than Matt Forte.

BTW, at this point, it's getting to be where both sides are kinda at a stalemate as far as the discussion. Not much new is being presented on either side, LOL. That's when threads can start breaking down.

It's probably best to wait & see what happens. Besides, this issue won't be decided for quite awhile. We'll know who won sooner or later.

The problem is, by the time the issue has been decided it will be too late for Forte owners.

 

[Biabreakable]

I did not see last weeks game but Forte's stat line was horrid. I am out of excuses.

Either he is hurt or he sucks. And he played in the game so..

 

[Football Jones]

I said situation & age are big factors, not the determining factor. All factors are considered when I rate Forte over Jackson in a dynasty league (PPR). As far as situation, it isn't close. Big, big win for Forte. Age = a plus for Forte. As far as talent, Jackson isn't what he's made out to be by some folks or he would've had the kind of season Forte had last year. And it's not like Jackson is lighting it up this season.

That's why I said it's not that close. With all due respect, it's an easy call, IMO (Forte over Jackson in a dynasty). That said, I want to be clear & say that I do believe Jackson is a talented RB.

So, if Jackson was so talented he would have averaged somewhere closer to Forte's 107 yards and .75 TDs per game last year? He must not be that talented, then, since he only averaged 118 yards and .66 TDs. Oh, wait... 118 is more than 107, isn't it?Despite Jackson being in a RADICALLY worse situation, he produced better than Forte last year. Because he really is what he's made out to be by some folks. Jackson also averaged .2 more yards per carry and 1.9 more yards per reception- again, despite being in a radically worse situation. Because he's just SUBSTANTIALLY more talented than Matt Forte.

BTW, at this point, it's getting to be where both sides are kinda at a stalemate as far as the discussion. Not much new is being presented on either side, LOL. That's when threads can start breaking down.

It's probably best to wait & see what happens. Besides, this issue won't be decided for quite awhile. We'll know who won sooner or later.

The problem is, by the time the issue has been decided it will be too late for Forte owners.

I was willing to let it go, but come on. You can't get away with saying Jackson outproduced Forte last year. LOL. Forte outproduced Jackson by a significant margin last year. Not sure what you play, but I play FF. Forte even outproduced Jackson on a per-game basis in FF.They both were in pretty bad situations & Forte beat him fair & square. Lots of folks were simply wrong about Forte. He made a steak sandwich out of baloney.

I'll concede Jackson is ahead right now, but their situations are like night & day. Age goes to Forte, as well. Forte was also dinged the first 4 games (he's close to 100% now).

I could see your side of it if Jackson was lighting it up, but he's not. Neither is Forte, but there's a long way to go, my friend.

Again, we play FF. Forte does the things that will keep him in the lineup for a long time. Same with Jackson, but until Jackson's situations improves considerably & is on par with Forte's outstanding situation, Forte should be ranked ahead of Jackson in dynasty leagues.

Anyway, just wanted to clear up the misconception you had about who helped FF teams last year the most (easily). His name is Matt Forte, not Steven Jackson.

 

[Biabreakable]

Atlanta is the 24th defense overall and they are 23rd against the run.

Forte had 15 carries for 23 yards 1.5 ypc and he fumbled the ball twice (lost one).

Thats terrible. All respect to the Falcons defense but thats not good.

 

[SSOG]

I was willing to let it go, but come on. You can't get away with saying Jackson outproduced Forte last year. LOL. Forte outproduced Jackson by a significant margin last year. Not sure what you play, but I play FF. Forte even outproduced Jackson on a per-game basis in FF.

Standard FBGs scoring-Steven Jackson: 15.85 fantasy points per gameMatt Forte: 15.22 fantasy points per gameStandard FBGs scoring + PPR-Steven Jackson: 19.18 fantasy points per gameMatt Forte: 19.22 fantasy points per gameBut don't let facts get in the way of an otherwise good argument.

They both were in pretty bad situations & Forte beat him fair & square. Lots of folks were simply wrong about Forte. He made a steak sandwich out of baloney.I'll concede Jackson is ahead right now, but their situations are like night & day. Age goes to Forte, as well. Forte was also dinged the first 4 games (he's close to 100% now). I could see your side of it if Jackson was lighting it up, but he's not. Neither is Forte, but there's a long way to go, my friend. Again, we play FF. Forte does the things that will keep him in the lineup for a long time. Same with Jackson, but until Jackson's situations improves considerably & is on par with Forte's outstanding situation, Forte should be ranked ahead of Jackson in dynasty leagues. Anyway, just wanted to clear up the misconception you had about who helped FF teams last year the most (easily). His name is Matt Forte, not Steven Jackson.

How was Jackson situation comparable to Chicago's last year? St. Louis was significantly worse than Chicago. St. Louis lost more games and gave up more points, which means Jackson got far less clock killing time. St. Louis wasn't starting Captain Checkdown at QB. St. Louis's offensive line was worse. St. Louis's situation was SIGNIFICANTLY worse. And SJax produced better than Forte, regardless... because he's a SIGNIFICANTLY better talent.You even admitted that this year SJax is dramatically outproducing Forte despite being in a dramatically worse situation. How is that happen unless SJax is a dramatically better talent?Also, I never said that Jackson helped fantasy teams more than Forte last year, I said that Jackson outproduced Forte when they were both on the field, because Jackson is way better than Forte.

 

[Football Jones]

I was willing to let it go, but come on. You can't get away with saying Jackson outproduced Forte last year. LOL. Forte outproduced Jackson by a significant margin last year. Not sure what you play, but I play FF. Forte even outproduced Jackson on a per-game basis in FF.

Standard FBGs scoring-Steven Jackson: 15.85 fantasy points per game

Matt Forte: 15.22 fantasy points per game

Standard FBGs scoring + PPR-

Steven Jackson: 19.18 fantasy points per game

Matt Forte: 19.22 fantasy points per game

But don't let facts get in the way of an otherwise good argument.

They both were in pretty bad situations & Forte beat him fair & square. Lots of folks were simply wrong about Forte. He made a steak sandwich out of baloney.

I'll concede Jackson is ahead right now, but their situations are like night & day. Age goes to Forte, as well. Forte was also dinged the first 4 games (he's close to 100% now).

I could see your side of it if Jackson was lighting it up, but he's not. Neither is Forte, but there's a long way to go, my friend.

Again, we play FF. Forte does the things that will keep him in the lineup for a long time. Same with Jackson, but until Jackson's situations improves considerably & is on par with Forte's outstanding situation, Forte should be ranked ahead of Jackson in dynasty leagues.

Anyway, just wanted to clear up the misconception you had about who helped FF teams last year the most (easily). His name is Matt Forte, not Steven Jackson.

How was Jackson situation comparable to Chicago's last year? St. Louis was significantly worse than Chicago. St. Louis lost more games and gave up more points, which means Jackson got far less clock killing time. St. Louis wasn't starting Captain Checkdown at QB. St. Louis's offensive line was worse. St. Louis's situation was SIGNIFICANTLY worse. And SJax produced better than Forte, regardless... because he's a SIGNIFICANTLY better talent.You even admitted that this year SJax is dramatically outproducing Forte despite being in a dramatically worse situation. How is that happen unless SJax is a dramatically better talent?

Also, I never said that Jackson helped fantasy teams more than Forte last year, I said that Jackson outproduced Forte when they were both on the field, because Jackson is way better than Forte.

What facts? I said Forte killed Jackson's production last year (by almost 80 points in PPR leagues). I also said he outproduced Jackson on a per-game basis. Those are the facts.As far as this year, I never said no such thing, LOL (about Jackson dramatically out-producing Forte this season). Not unless you call Jackson averaging just barely over 1 point-per-game more than Forte this year dramatic. Did you forget about Forte's bye week? Jackson hasn't had his yet. You can't have your cake & eat it, too. It's either one way or the other.

In fact, it would SHOCK me if Jackson outproduced Forte on a per-game basis this season. We aren't even at the halfway mark yet. Long way to go, my friend. And if we're talking about the future, Forte by a pretty good margin. And that's a fairly conservative statement. Jackson's situation is going to have to improve quite a bit to have a chance to match Forte's FF value going forward.

Again, we play FF.

 

[EBF]

Again, we play FF.

Yes, but what happens in the NFL determines what happens in FF, and in the NFL RBs who average 3.4 YPC generally don't keep their starting jobs for very long. That was one of the key points of the entire thread and it amazes me that the "we play FF" argument is still being used to defend Forte 13 pages deep. He plays in the NFL and his NFL performance has been putrid. If he doesn't play better, he will be replaced in the NFL and his FF value will be shot. Maybe it's the OL. Maybe not. Bottom line is that Forte has averaged below 4.0 YPC in 8 of his last 10 games dating back to last season. That's not good. He needs to play better or the team will start looking for ways to upgrade its RB corps. As for Steven Jackson, he routinely excels regardless of his supporting cast. That's what the elite backs do. So far, Forte hasn't done that.

 

[SSOG]

What facts? I said Forte killed Jackson's production last year (by almost 80 points in PPR leagues). I also said he outproduced Jackson on a per-game basis. Those are the facts.

As far as this year, I never said no such thing, LOL (about Jackson dramatically out-producing Forte this season). Not unless you call Jackson averaging just barely over 1 point-per-game more than Forte this year dramatic. Did you forget about Forte's bye week? Jackson hasn't had his yet. You can't have your cake & eat it, too. It's either one way or the other.

In fact, it would SHOCK me if Jackson outproduced Forte on a per-game basis this season. We aren't even at the halfway mark yet. Long way to go, my friend. And if we're talking about the future, Forte by a pretty good margin. And that's a fairly conservative statement. Jackson's situation is going to have to improve quite a bit to have a chance to match Forte's FF value going forward.

Again, we play FF.

Forte "outproduced" SJax by four one-hundredths of a point in PPR leagues (the equivalent of 6 yards over a 16-game season). That's not "outproducing", that's a wash. And SJax definitely outproduced Forte in non-PPR (the equivalent of 100 yards over a 16-game season). Jackson also averaged more yards per carry *AND* more yards per reception... so the most charitable thing you can possibly say about Forte is that he produced as well per game as Jackson (defining production strictly in PPR terms), but in reality it's more accurate to say that Jackson outproduced Forte on a per-game basis (defining production in non-PPR terms *OR* in actual NFL terms).So far this year, Forte's averaging 9.66 ppg in standard FBG scoring. SJax is averaging 11.18 ppg... despite having 200 yards worth of production called back by penalties... and despite not finding paydirt yet. If you want to go with PPR scoring, SJax is still outscoring Forte by 1.25 points per game, or the equivalent of 200 extra yards over a 16-game season. SJax has averaged 4.2 yards per carry as the only offensive threat on one of the worst offenses of the past decade. Forte has averaged 3.4 yards per carry as the second option on an above-average offense. SJax has RADICALLY and DRAMATICALLY outproduced Forte so far this season, despite Forte's significantly better situation. Who cares if Forte's situation is better going forward? His situation is better now, and it hasn't done the slightest bit to stop SJax from whupping him three ways to Sunday. SJax's talent advantage trumps Forte's situation advantage, as evidenced by the fact that SJax's talent advantage has been busy trumping Forte's situation advantage for over a year now.

And the best part about SJax is we know he's not a fluke. You think Forte is a stud because of one season where he was in an ideal situation and got 370 touches. I think SJax is a stud because he's consistently been a stud, week-in and week-out, for over 3 straight years now. Forte's struggles right now raise legitimate concerns as to whether he's a 1-year wonder (someone has already posted comparisons of Forte's rookie year to the rookie years of Curtis Enis and Anthony Thomas). SJax has no such concerns.

Also, yes, we play FF... but you seem to keep... missing... the point. The guys who are consistently valuable year after year in FF are the guys who are uniquely talented, because situation changes but talent remains constant. SJax is uniquely talented. Forte is not.

 

[Football Jones]

EBF/SSOG,

We can safely say it simply boils down to the fact we disagree how talented Forte is. Still, Forte outproduced Jackson last year & is almost doing again this year. And I'll bet he does it by season's end, & the next season, & the one after that. At some point, people are going to have to admit they were wrong about how talented Forte is. I can't say it enough...we play FF. Give the Forte backers a chance, though. Lots of people were wrong about him last year. It's still early.

Forte was the #2 RB in PPR last year barely behind DWill. And it doesn't matter how talented you think Forte is, he produced. Simple as that. I get what you're saying about average RBs getting replaced or getting a reduced workload, but Forte is just too good. And like I said, he's barely behind Jackson's pace now despite a putrid OL. The Rams' OL is most definitely a better run blocking unit. What is Jackson's excuse? He's barely ahead of Forte, who you guys believe is struggling. That's why I said you can't have your cake & eat it, too.

Forte has unique talents. He doesn't "pop" like some RBs. He's kinda subtle, displaying good vision & loose hips to make cuts at a high rate of speed (the likes of which I've rarely seen in a bigger-type RB). Whatever lower body injury he had earlier this season did slow him down, though (but he looked much healthier in last week's game). Forte gets what's there & is capable of making big plays. Jackson 'pops", but Forte is just as talented when you take all aspects of RB play into account. Forte is one of the best pass-catchers in the league. He's good enough he can split out & run WR routes. Good blocker, too. He gets killed for his YPC, but that OL is horrid. Imagine what he could do behind a decent OL. His 3.9 YPC last year was a miracle considering how poor the OL was & how opposing Ds stacked the box due to their inept passing game.

Again, let's give him a chance. Despite all the criticism, he's barely behind Jackson on a per-game basis. And as I mentioned, I'd be very surprised if Jackson finishes ahead of him when all is said & done. Forte hasn't produced like I thought he would, but it's early. He'll get better. He's too talented not to outproduce Jackson this season. If Forte keeps struggling & doesn't get off to a good start again next year, then I'll re-evaluate. Until then, I've got to believe my eyes. I've been very successful making player evaluation decisions & I've got to go with what I see. I'm sure you guys would do the same. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. However, I'm extremely confident I'm not wrong. That said, I'll be around to admit my mistake if that's the case. We shall see.

----------

We play FF.

 

[Football Jones]

What facts? I said Forte killed Jackson's production last year (by almost 80 points in PPR leagues). I also said he outproduced Jackson on a per-game basis. Those are the facts.

As far as this year, I never said no such thing, LOL (about Jackson dramatically out-producing Forte this season). Not unless you call Jackson averaging just barely over 1 point-per-game more than Forte this year dramatic. Did you forget about Forte's bye week? Jackson hasn't had his yet. You can't have your cake & eat it, too. It's either one way or the other.

In fact, it would SHOCK me if Jackson outproduced Forte on a per-game basis this season. We aren't even at the halfway mark yet. Long way to go, my friend. And if we're talking about the future, Forte by a pretty good margin. And that's a fairly conservative statement. Jackson's situation is going to have to improve quite a bit to have a chance to match Forte's FF value going forward.

Again, we play FF.

Forte "outproduced" SJax by four one-hundredths of a point in PPR leagues (the equivalent of 6 yards over a 16-game season). That's not "outproducing", that's a wash. And SJax definitely outproduced Forte in non-PPR (the equivalent of 100 yards over a 16-game season). Jackson also averaged more yards per carry *AND* more yards per reception... so the most charitable thing you can possibly say about Forte is that he produced as well per game as Jackson (defining production strictly in PPR terms), but in reality it's more accurate to say that Jackson outproduced Forte on a per-game basis (defining production in non-PPR terms *OR* in actual NFL terms).So far this year, Forte's averaging 9.66 ppg in standard FBG scoring. SJax is averaging 11.18 ppg... despite having 200 yards worth of production called back by penalties... and despite not finding paydirt yet. If you want to go with PPR scoring, SJax is still outscoring Forte by 1.25 points per game, or the equivalent of 200 extra yards over a 16-game season. SJax has averaged 4.2 yards per carry as the only offensive threat on one of the worst offenses of the past decade. Forte has averaged 3.4 yards per carry as the second option on an above-average offense. SJax has RADICALLY and DRAMATICALLY outproduced Forte so far this season, despite Forte's significantly better situation. Who cares if Forte's situation is better going forward? His situation is better now, and it hasn't done the slightest bit to stop SJax from whupping him three ways to Sunday. SJax's talent advantage trumps Forte's situation advantage, as evidenced by the fact that SJax's talent advantage has been busy trumping Forte's situation advantage for over a year now.

And the best part about SJax is we know he's not a fluke. You think Forte is a stud because of one season where he was in an ideal situation and got 370 touches. I think SJax is a stud because he's consistently been a stud, week-in and week-out, for over 3 straight years now. Forte's struggles right now raise legitimate concerns as to whether he's a 1-year wonder (someone has already posted comparisons of Forte's rookie year to the rookie years of Curtis Enis and Anthony Thomas). SJax has no such concerns.

Also, yes, we play FF... but you seem to keep... missing... the point. The guys who are consistently valuable year after year in FF are the guys who are uniquely talented, because situation changes but talent remains constant. SJax is uniquely talented. Forte is not.

BTW, I do get the point, LOL. Jackson's last 3 YPC's are 4.2, 4.1, & 4.2. Not much off Forte's terrible 3.9 last year when he had nobody to help. Forget his YPC so far this season. It's early & he's been dinged. Let's at least give him the benefit of a full season before we call him a bust after the monster performance he put up last year (& might I remind you much better than Jackson's FF performance). Staying healthy is a talent, too. Forte could go down next week, but you know he's going to be out there if humanly possible. He's an incredibly tough dude. Sometimes people can't see the forest for the trees. In all seriousness, I believe that old saying is a good reminder for those hanging on Forte's YPC. You'll get the 4.0+ (sooner or later)...be patient. All is not lost in 6 weeks (5 games), my friend.

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We play FF.

 

[Football Jones]

Again, we play FF.

Yes, but what happens in the NFL determines what happens in FF, and in the NFL RBs who average 3.4 YPC generally don't keep their starting jobs for very long. That was one of the key points of the entire thread and it amazes me that the "we play FF" argument is still being used to defend Forte 13 pages deep. He plays in the NFL and his NFL performance has been putrid. If he doesn't play better, he will be replaced in the NFL and his FF value will be shot. Maybe it's the OL. Maybe not. Bottom line is that Forte has averaged below 4.0 YPC in 8 of his last 10 games dating back to last season. That's not good. He needs to play better or the team will start looking for ways to upgrade its RB corps.

As for Steven Jackson, he routinely excels regardless of his supporting cast. That's what the elite backs do. So far, Forte hasn't done that.

I use it because the YPC thing is silly. You know as well as I do his 3.9 YPC last year was outstanding given his situation. Quote me the 3.4 if that's what he ends up with at the end of the year. You've got to judge players with your eyes, not stats. It's a deadly mistake. And people don't seem to realize how much the Bears like him, & know what they have is special. They realize he's not getting holes opened up for him. It would be one thing if the Bears weren't so high on this kid.

While people were waiting for him to fail last year, his owners were winning leagues. He's not been nearly as good this year, but these things happen. How do you explain Greg Jennings & countless other top players underperforming? And nobody says anything about Brandon Jacobs' 3.6 YPC. And that's behind a great OL. There's just this funky vendetta thing going on with Forte, LOL. I honestly don't know how to explain it.

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We play FF.

 

[twr]

forte is talented. no question about it. i think its pretty crazy to try and relate sjax to forte talent wise... sjax physically is the best RB in the league.. his size and speed are just crazy... peterson is pretty close. with that said, forte is still talented... i think he looks a bit more timid this year, but alot is due to how the chicago line has played(pretty poor). look at how cutler looked starting the season(horrible)... the oline and forte are to blame for the subpar production. i still think hes a top 10 fantasy back, but its not because hes top 10 talent wise, hes top 10 talent AND opportunity wise. you have to factor both.

and whoever said atlanta's defense is garbage, you need to watch them play.

i said in the preseason that arizona had one hell of a run defense, and blamed mendys lack of production vs them as so... yet was scoffed at. atlanta has a underrated defense as is.. lofton is a MAN in the middle.

 

[switz]

We can safely say it simply boils down to the fact we disagree how talented Forte is. Still, Forte outproduced Jackson last year & is almost doing again this year. And I'll bet he does it by season's end, & the next season, & the one after that. At some point, people are going to have to admit they were wrong about how talented Forte is. I can't say it enough...we play FF.

But the Chicago Bears don't. And almost doesn't matter in the NFL.Bottom line, it doesn't matter if a guy gets you FF points if he's not helping his NFL team win. He will get replaced, and unless Forte starts to improve, the Bears are going to blame him for their offensive struggles.

While he may have "outproduced" Jackson last year, due to opportunity, he didn't "outperform" Jackson. There is a huge difference, production != performance, and in the NFL, it's performance that matters.

 

[Knight who says Ni]

I don't think the issue is that he isn't talented, so much as Forte is simply not playing at the level of where he was picked in most drafts. With that frame of reference, I know I am certainly having buyer's remorse. I hope he turns it around, naturally, but the way the Bears line has looked and the lack of looks Forte gets from Cutler in the passing game, I am not all that hopeful

 

[Football Jones]

We can safely say it simply boils down to the fact we disagree how talented Forte is. Still, Forte outproduced Jackson last year & is almost doing again this year. And I'll bet he does it by season's end, & the next season, & the one after that. At some point, people are going to have to admit they were wrong about how talented Forte is. I can't say it enough...we play FF.

But the Chicago Bears don't. And almost doesn't matter in the NFL.Bottom line, it doesn't matter if a guy gets you FF points if he's not helping his NFL team win. He will get replaced, and unless Forte starts to improve, the Bears are going to blame him for their offensive struggles.

While he may have "outproduced" Jackson last year, due to opportunity, he didn't "outperform" Jackson. There is a huge difference, production != performance, and in the NFL, it's performance that matters.

That's the problem I have with the Jackson comparison, though. Besides an average YPC the last 3 years, what has Jackson done? His performance hasn't led to a lot of offensive production (as a team). Forte & Jackson are both talented, but they can't do it themselves, yet, Forte came as close as you can with his outstanding performance last year. What he did was incredible.Too much looking at stats & not enough eyeballs, IMO. I have no doubt Forte will make a comeback & we'll be right back where we started. And that's with the doubters wondering how he gets it done, LOL.

We'll see what happens.

 

[switz]

We can safely say it simply boils down to the fact we disagree how talented Forte is. Still, Forte outproduced Jackson last year & is almost doing again this year. And I'll bet he does it by season's end, & the next season, & the one after that. At some point, people are going to have to admit they were wrong about how talented Forte is. I can't say it enough...we play FF.

But the Chicago Bears don't. And almost doesn't matter in the NFL.Bottom line, it doesn't matter if a guy gets you FF points if he's not helping his NFL team win. He will get replaced, and unless Forte starts to improve, the Bears are going to blame him for their offensive struggles.

While he may have "outproduced" Jackson last year, due to opportunity, he didn't "outperform" Jackson. There is a huge difference, production != performance, and in the NFL, it's performance that matters.

That's the problem I have with the Jackson comparison, though. Besides an average YPC the last 3 years, what has Jackson done? His performance hasn't led to a lot of offensive production (as a team). Forte & Jackson are both talented, but they can't do it themselves, yet, Forte came as close as you can with his outstanding performance last year. What he did was incredible.Too much looking at stats & not enough eyeballs, IMO. I have no doubt Forte will make a comeback & we'll be right back where we started. And that's with the doubters wondering how he gets it done, LOL.

We'll see what happens.

Well, Forte hasn't had to do it himself, while Jackson has. And Jackson's performance has been better than Forte's despite his production being not as good due to injuries more than anything else. When Jackson has been healthy and on the field, he's performed.You talk about stats, but your comments, like Forte's performance being outstanding, and Jackson not doing much, make me believe you are going more by stats (overall numbers) than eyeballs. Watch Jackson for one game, and there's no doubt he's one of the most talents RBs playing right now. Watch Forte and he looks average at best. Period.

I know you want Forte to be really good, and are sure if he had tremendous talent around him, he'd perform better. But they've a) improved their talent this year, and b) his performance has declined. Forte simply isn't a great RB, he's average.

 

[Football Jones]

We can safely say it simply boils down to the fact we disagree how talented Forte is. Still, Forte outproduced Jackson last year & is almost doing again this year. And I'll bet he does it by season's end, & the next season, & the one after that. At some point, people are going to have to admit they were wrong about how talented Forte is. I can't say it enough...we play FF.

But the Chicago Bears don't. And almost doesn't matter in the NFL.Bottom line, it doesn't matter if a guy gets you FF points if he's not helping his NFL team win. He will get replaced, and unless Forte starts to improve, the Bears are going to blame him for their offensive struggles.

While he may have "outproduced" Jackson last year, due to opportunity, he didn't "outperform" Jackson. There is a huge difference, production != performance, and in the NFL, it's performance that matters.

That's the problem I have with the Jackson comparison, though. Besides an average YPC the last 3 years, what has Jackson done? His performance hasn't led to a lot of offensive production (as a team). Forte & Jackson are both talented, but they can't do it themselves, yet, Forte came as close as you can with his outstanding performance last year. What he did was incredible.Too much looking at stats & not enough eyeballs, IMO. I have no doubt Forte will make a comeback & we'll be right back where we started. And that's with the doubters wondering how he gets it done, LOL.

We'll see what happens.

Well, Forte hasn't had to do it himself, while Jackson has. And Jackson's performance has been better than Forte's despite his production being not as good due to injuries more than anything else. When Jackson has been healthy and on the field, he's performed.You talk about stats, but your comments, like Forte's performance being outstanding, and Jackson not doing much, make me believe you are going more by stats (overall numbers) than eyeballs. Watch Jackson for one game, and there's no doubt he's one of the most talents RBs playing right now. Watch Forte and he looks average at best. Period.

I know you want Forte to be really good, and are sure if he had tremendous talent around him, he'd perform better. But they've a) improved their talent this year, and b) his performance has declined. Forte simply isn't a great RB, he's average.

Forte didn't have to do it himself last year? Come on. He had nothing. He outproduced Jackson last season & will likely do it again this year. They're virtually tied right now on a per-game basis (Forte's bye week). And that's with Forte dinged & the offense still trying to get in sync as well as a horrid OL.In this day & age of the RBBC, Forte is a top FF RB. And he's not going to get replaced. Just not going to happen. That's one reason I'm so high on him.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/footb...,6773472.column

Run-blocking on offense, impact plays on defense almost nonexistent

Dan Pompei On the NFL

October 20, 2009

Falcons defenders laid quite a few good hits on Matt Forte Sunday. But that won't be anything compared to the hits Forte is going to be taking all week from the media and fans.

And frankly, he has the hits coming. But he's not alone. His blockers have some hits coming too.

When a running game is as bad as it was for the Bears on Sunday, you are seeing a group failure. Did you know, for instance, that Forte was hit in the backfield on 40 percent of his runs -- including his two fumbles?

More on that below.

Running backs Grade: 2

Garrett Wolfe helps raise this grade, both for his pass protection and a 12-yard run on which he outran one defender, broke the tackle attempts of two others and carried a fourth a few yards.

Those are the kinds of plays Forte rarely has made this year. Forte's two biggest problems are he isn't hitting the hole hard and he isn't beating defenders in one-on-one situations.

Against the Falcons he often hesitated when he got the handoff and took too long to get moving. Once he was in space, he showed no elusiveness and wasn't breaking any tackles.

Take away the six times he was hit in the backfield, and Forte still averaged only 2.1 yards per carry.

His fumbling on the goal line arguably cost the Bears the game.

Offensive line Grade: 2

First, the praise: the pass blocking wasn't half bad. On a night when Jay Cutler put it up 43 times, the protection rarely broke down before it should have. Give Orlando Pace credit for holding up against John Abraham.

Now, the criticism: the run blocking was atrocious. And the penalties were game changers, especially the false starts in the red zone on the Bears' final drive by Pace and guard Frank Omiyale.

This was Omiyale's worst game of the year.

On Forte's first fumble, Omiyale fell off a double-team block, allowing Jonathan Babineaux to penetrate. That forced Forte to jump early, clearing the way for Curtis Lofton to nail him in midair, which caused the fumble.

On Forte's second fumble, Omiyale whiffed on Babineaux and Babineaux slammed Forte in the backfield, forcing him to cough it up again.

And late in the fourth quarter on the potential touchdown throw to Johnny Knox, the man Omiyale was blocking, Babineaux, batted down the pass.

 

[Instinctive]

Football Jones....the biggest problem I have thus far is that you keep saying Forte outproduced jackson, and then we post all the stats that show that statement is simply false.

Go back and read over those posts. Because Jackson has produced at least as much last season. And this season it's not close.

Forte doing it all himself would imply that he managed to get yards on his own. Forte definitely doesn't do that. He never makes something out of nothing. He's Rudi Johnson. Only in a worse situation...with more fluctuations...and less talent. So 3 solid years and then he's gone. Not great years. Definitely not "top 5 pick" years. Solid.

Jackson has a higher YPC, a higher YPR, and a worse QB and OLine. I would say he does it all himself. Forte is not a top FF RB. He isn't even in the top 24. Jackson is RB11 or so. That's not just a 10 point difference. Jackson is scoring roughly 11PPG while Forte is scoring 9.

Rethink your "PPR they're equal" statement. Because they aren't. Try math. Add up Forte's points. Divide by total games played. Repeat for SJax.

(yes...I know you know how to do that. Yes, it is patronizing. Yes, it is because you continue to make a completely false statement.)

 

[EBF]

Forte outproduced Jackson last year & is almost doing again this year. And I'll bet he does it by season's end, & the next season, & the one after that. At some point, people are going to have to admit they were wrong about how talented Forte is. I can't say it enough...we play FF. Give the Forte backers a chance, though. Lots of people were wrong about him last year. It's still early. Forte was the #2 RB in PPR last year barely behind DWill. And it doesn't matter how talented you think Forte is, he produced. Simple as that.

Therein lies the rub. He produced good numbers in FF leagues, but mediocre numbers in NFL terms. He averaged 3.9 YPC. That's one of the worst averages of any starting RB in the league. This year he's averaging 3.4 YPC. That's wretched. It's among the bottom 5 averages among all NFL starters. You keep insisting that he produced (and is still producing). I don't think you're recognizing the distinction between NFL production and FF production. Forte has been solid in FF terms, but he has been below average in NFL terms. In 21 career games, he has averaged below 4 YPC 14 times. He's ineffective more often than not. Blame it on phantom injuries. Blame it on the supporting cast. Bottom line is that he hasn't been very good running the football. If he was truly a special talent like you suggest then we would expect him to produce regardless of situation. Frank Gore has never played on a good offense, but he has a 4.8 career YPC average. Chris Johnson plays on one of the worst offenses in the league. He's averaging 6.3 YPC. Steven Jackson plays on an offense that's far more pitiful than Chicago's. He's averaging 4.2 YPC. These guys are so good that they get yards no matter what the circumstances. That's what elite talents do. Forte hasn't done it. Insisting that he's a special player doesn't make it true. None of the objective factors support the idea. He wasn't a first round pick. He doesn't have elite physical gifts. His production has been mediocre at best. All of the objective factors point towards mediocrity.

 

[Knobs]

What we got here is...failure to communicate.

Forte outproduced SJax last year because he had so many touches. Now that they have a different qb, you can't expect his touches per game to mirror last year's output. But what he DID with each touch was less than what SJax did with each touch. Basically, if player A got 3 ypc and had 300 carries, and player B averaged 2 ypc but had 500 carries, the actual production would make it seem as though player B is slightly more talented, when in reality player A was better but just didn't get an equal number of touches.

We play fantasy football but WE play fantasy football. Not the coaches. The coaches don't give a damn about fantasy football - what they DO care about is actual production. And Forte's actual production has sucked. This part cannot be denied. We can argue over WHY it has sucked but it has been lousy.

Perhaps the coaches feel no rb outside Barry Sanders in his prime could run behind that line. Then they would be inclined to keep Forte.

Perhaps the coaches believe Forte isn't that good but he's not that bad and they have more pressing needs (in addition to no draft picks). In that case they likely wouldn't go out of their way to find a replacement but wouldn't be opposed to some open competition.

Or, maybe they feel Forte isn't doing nearly as well as a more talented back would be, lousy o-line or not. In that case they will be searching for a replacement ASAP.

None of us really know what the coaches are thinking but I'm fairly confident it has to be along these three points.

 

[SSOG]

I use it because the YPC thing is silly. You know as well as I do his 3.9 YPC last year was outstanding given his situation. Quote me the 3.4 if that's what he ends up with at the end of the year. You've got to judge players with your eyes, not stats. It's a deadly mistake.

And people don't seem to realize how much the Bears like him, & know what they have is special. They realize he's not getting holes opened up for him. It would be one thing if the Bears weren't so high on this kid.

While people were waiting for him to fail last year, his owners were winning leagues. He's not been nearly as good this year, but these things happen. How do you explain Greg Jennings & countless other top players underperforming? And nobody says anything about Brandon Jacobs' 3.6 YPC. And that's behind a great OL. There's just this funky vendetta thing going on with Forte, LOL. I honestly don't know how to explain it.

----------

We play FF.

I always hate it when people pull the "use your eyes, not stats!" stuff on me. As I say over and over and over again... I use stats to INFORM my decisions, not to FORM them. I use my eyes. My eyes say that Forte isn't a special talent. I then look for some sort of evidence to either corroborate what my eyes tell me, or to disagree and tell me I need to look again. In this case, the stats tell me that my eyes are exactly right- Forte's not a special talent. A special talent never blames his O-line, or his situation, or his supporting cast. A special talent produces IN SPITE of his circumstances, not BECAUSE OF his circumstances. Forte is not a special talent.Also, while I always laugh when someone thinks I'm just a stat-monger, I think it's especially laughable to level that sort of accusation at EBF. Read up on his posting history some time. There might be a couple posters on this board who spend more time and effort actually scouting such a massive array of players... maybe.

Also, I have no vendetta against Forte, no axe to grind. Don't assume that just because someone doesn't like a player as much as you do that they have some sort of axe to grind. Forte never slept with my wife. He never stole my lunch money. He's never burned me because I owned him, and he's never burned me because I passed on him. It's not personal. The reason you don't know how to explain this "vendetta" is because there is no explanation... because there is no vendetta.

That's the problem I have with the Jackson comparison, though. Besides an average YPC the last 3 years, what has Jackson done? His performance hasn't led to a lot of offensive production (as a team). Forte & Jackson are both talented, but they can't do it themselves, yet, Forte came as close as you can with his outstanding performance last year. What he did was incredible.

Too much looking at stats & not enough eyeballs, IMO. I have no doubt Forte will make a comeback & we'll be right back where we started. And that's with the doubters wondering how he gets it done, LOL.

We'll see what happens.

Did you just ask us what Jackson has done yet and then accuse us of using stats and not our eyes? I'll tell you what Jackson has done- every single time he's set foot on the field, he's been the best player on it. That's what he's done. Also, you keep gushing about Forte's season last year, but even that wasn't so special. Forte had 1238/8 rushing, and 63/477/4 receiving. Whoopty-doo. You want to see a special season, check out Steven Jackson's 2006 sometime. 1528/13 rushing, 90/806/3 receiving. That's 300 more rushing yards, 27 more receptions, 330 more receiving yards, and 4 more TDs. Let's stop comparing Jackson in a terrible situation to Forte in a great situation (they're a wash), and start comparing Jackson in a great situation to Forte in a great situation (Jackson beats Forte like a redheaded stepchild).

Forte didn't have to do it himself last year? Come on. He had nothing. He outproduced Jackson last season & will likely do it again this year. They're virtually tied right now on a per-game basis (Forte's bye week). And that's with Forte dinged & the offense still trying to get in sync as well as a horrid OL.

In this day & age of the RBBC, Forte is a top FF RB. And he's not going to get replaced. Just not going to happen. That's one reason I'm so high on him.

Just for the record, averaging more than a point and a half more per game is not a "virtual tie". And you keep talking about how Forte is about to turn it on... do you think Jackson is going to end the season with 0 TDs? Forget Forte, what will happen when JACKSON turns it on?

 

[Breesisdaman]

Im debating on whether to start Forte or L. Johnson this week. Thats a pretty far drop for a must start #1 draft pick.

 

[Football Jones]

I use it because the YPC thing is silly. You know as well as I do his 3.9 YPC last year was outstanding given his situation. Quote me the 3.4 if that's what he ends up with at the end of the year. You've got to judge players with your eyes, not stats. It's a deadly mistake.

And people don't seem to realize how much the Bears like him, & know what they have is special. They realize he's not getting holes opened up for him. It would be one thing if the Bears weren't so high on this kid.

While people were waiting for him to fail last year, his owners were winning leagues. He's not been nearly as good this year, but these things happen. How do you explain Greg Jennings & countless other top players underperforming? And nobody says anything about Brandon Jacobs' 3.6 YPC. And that's behind a great OL. There's just this funky vendetta thing going on with Forte, LOL. I honestly don't know how to explain it.

----------

We play FF.

I always hate it when people pull the "use your eyes, not stats!" stuff on me. As I say over and over and over again... I use stats to INFORM my decisions, not to FORM them. I use my eyes. My eyes say that Forte isn't a special talent. I then look for some sort of evidence to either corroborate what my eyes tell me, or to disagree and tell me I need to look again. In this case, the stats tell me that my eyes are exactly right- Forte's not a special talent. A special talent never blames his O-line, or his situation, or his supporting cast. A special talent produces IN SPITE of his circumstances, not BECAUSE OF his circumstances. Forte is not a special talent.Also, while I always laugh when someone thinks I'm just a stat-monger, I think it's especially laughable to level that sort of accusation at EBF. Read up on his posting history some time. There might be a couple posters on this board who spend more time and effort actually scouting such a massive array of players... maybe.

Also, I have no vendetta against Forte, no axe to grind. Don't assume that just because someone doesn't like a player as much as you do that they have some sort of axe to grind. Forte never slept with my wife. He never stole my lunch money. He's never burned me because I owned him, and he's never burned me because I passed on him. It's not personal. The reason you don't know how to explain this "vendetta" is because there is no explanation... because there is no vendetta.

That's the problem I have with the Jackson comparison, though. Besides an average YPC the last 3 years, what has Jackson done? His performance hasn't led to a lot of offensive production (as a team). Forte & Jackson are both talented, but they can't do it themselves, yet, Forte came as close as you can with his outstanding performance last year. What he did was incredible.

Too much looking at stats & not enough eyeballs, IMO. I have no doubt Forte will make a comeback & we'll be right back where we started. And that's with the doubters wondering how he gets it done, LOL.

We'll see what happens.

Did you just ask us what Jackson has done yet and then accuse us of using stats and not our eyes? I'll tell you what Jackson has done- every single time he's set foot on the field, he's been the best player on it. That's what he's done. Also, you keep gushing about Forte's season last year, but even that wasn't so special. Forte had 1238/8 rushing, and 63/477/4 receiving. Whoopty-doo. You want to see a special season, check out Steven Jackson's 2006 sometime. 1528/13 rushing, 90/806/3 receiving. That's 300 more rushing yards, 27 more receptions, 330 more receiving yards, and 4 more TDs. Let's stop comparing Jackson in a terrible situation to Forte in a great situation (they're a wash), and start comparing Jackson in a great situation to Forte in a great situation (Jackson beats Forte like a redheaded stepchild).

Forte didn't have to do it himself last year? Come on. He had nothing. He outproduced Jackson last season & will likely do it again this year. They're virtually tied right now on a per-game basis (Forte's bye week). And that's with Forte dinged & the offense still trying to get in sync as well as a horrid OL.

In this day & age of the RBBC, Forte is a top FF RB. And he's not going to get replaced. Just not going to happen. That's one reason I'm so high on him.

Just for the record, averaging more than a point and a half more per game is not a "virtual tie". And you keep talking about how Forte is about to turn it on... do you think Jackson is going to end the season with 0 TDs? Forget Forte, what will happen when JACKSON turns it on?

Huh? What accusations? This is going too far, LOL. I'm much more familiar with EBF than you because I play in some leagues with him, but either way, I didn't say anything negative towards either of you. Not my style. I think EBF is a good guy & one of the many talented FFers I compete against. We don't always agree, but like I said, it wouldn't be any fun if we all had the same opinion. Anyway, the YPC argument has been thrown out countless times in this thread. In Forte's case (especially), you simply can't do that. You have to use your eyes. It's a general statement. That's why I use the word "people" in my posts.

If you guys are using your eyes & still believe Forte isn't a very good RB, then that's your opinions. I'm sure you're well aware of mine. You're trying to make something out of this that it's not. That's why I suggested in an earlier post that it's beginning to be a pissing match. Just not into that stuff. I respect other people's opinions. I may not agree, but discussion is fine.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I trust my eyes, so I'm still of the opinion Forte is a virtual lock to be a top FF RB in the coming years when you couple his talent with his outstanding situation. Lots of folks agree with me, many don't. Simple as that.

 

[Chunky Soup]

He had a nice GL run and a nice break to the outside on a run this past week. Granted it was vs. Cleveland, he still made some nice moves and showed some burst.

I wouldn't say he's an elite talent, but he's a very good player. IMO, calls for his demise/claiming him to be very average or pedestrian were greatly overstated.

 

[Ghost Rider]

He had a nice GL run and a nice break to the outside on a run this past week. Granted it was vs. Cleveland, he still made some nice moves and showed some burst.I wouldn't say he's an elite talent, but he's a very good player. IMO, calls for his demise/claiming him to be very average or pedestrian were greatly overstated.

26 carries for 90 yards against Cleveland is hardly something to write home about.

 

[gianmarco]

He had a nice GL run and a nice break to the outside on a run this past week. Granted it was vs. Cleveland, he still made some nice moves and showed some burst.I wouldn't say he's an elite talent, but he's a very good player. IMO, calls for his demise/claiming him to be very average or pedestrian were greatly overstated.

26 carries for 90 yards against Cleveland is hardly something to write home about.

3.4 ypc.

 

[corpcow]

I don't see Forte as an elite talent... but he has a nice, balanced skill set. That said, and as already mentioned in this thread, CHI's run blocking is atrocious right now. Forte is hit in the backfield consistently. It would be hard for any RB to produce strong rushing stats under those conditions.

An elite RB would make someone miss in the backfield.

 

[Chunky Soup]

He had a nice GL run and a nice break to the outside on a run this past week. Granted it was vs. Cleveland, he still made some nice moves and showed some burst.I wouldn't say he's an elite talent, but he's a very good player. IMO, calls for his demise/claiming him to be very average or pedestrian were greatly overstated.

26 carries for 90 yards against Cleveland is hardly something to write home about.

My point was regarding his talent. His line IMO may be holding him back, but I don't think a lot of RBs would make the plays he's made.

 

[switz]

He had a nice GL run and a nice break to the outside on a run this past week. Granted it was vs. Cleveland, he still made some nice moves and showed some burst.I wouldn't say he's an elite talent, but he's a very good player. IMO, calls for his demise/claiming him to be very average or pedestrian were greatly overstated.

26 carries for 90 yards against Cleveland is hardly something to write home about.

My point was regarding his talent. His line IMO may be holding him back, but I don't think a lot of RBs would make the plays he's made.

Really? What plays in specific do you think were so outstanding?

 

[gianmarco]

He had a nice GL run and a nice break to the outside on a run this past week. Granted it was vs. Cleveland, he still made some nice moves and showed some burst.I wouldn't say he's an elite talent, but he's a very good player. IMO, calls for his demise/claiming him to be very average or pedestrian were greatly overstated.

26 carries for 90 yards against Cleveland is hardly something to write home about.

My point was regarding his talent. His line IMO may be holding him back, but I don't think a lot of RBs would make the plays he's made.

His line may be holding him back, but you can put in just about ANY RB, starting or backup, from the NFL and they can do what he's doing.

 

[RBM]

I don't see Forte as an elite talent... but he has a nice, balanced skill set. That said, and as already mentioned in this thread, CHI's run blocking is atrocious right now. Forte is hit in the backfield consistently. It would be hard for any RB to produce strong rushing stats under those conditions.

An elite RB would make someone miss in the backfield.

He isnt getting hit by one guy in the backfield. He is getting gang-tackled by 3-4-5 guys in the backfield.They did another great segment on the Bears running game on NFL network show Playbook the other day. Really showing in detail how poorly the line is blocking, especially Omiyale who finally got benched. It might be on NFL.com somewhere for viewing.

 

[switz]

I don't see Forte as an elite talent... but he has a nice, balanced skill set. That said, and as already mentioned in this thread, CHI's run blocking is atrocious right now. Forte is hit in the backfield consistently. It would be hard for any RB to produce strong rushing stats under those conditions.

An elite RB would make someone miss in the backfield.

He isnt getting hit by one guy in the backfield. He is getting gang-tackled by 3-4-5 guys in the backfield.

This is happening to a few other guys in the NFL this season, and no one is accepting that as an excuse for them. Quite frankly, if Forte was a little more explosive he'd be past the LOS before the defenders were in the backfield. He just isn't that good of an RB.

 

[Knobs]

I don't see Forte as an elite talent... but he has a nice, balanced skill set. That said, and as already mentioned in this thread, CHI's run blocking is atrocious right now. Forte is hit in the backfield consistently. It would be hard for any RB to produce strong rushing stats under those conditions.

An elite RB would make someone miss in the backfield.

He isnt getting hit by one guy in the backfield. He is getting gang-tackled by 3-4-5 guys in the backfield.

This is happening to a few other guys in the NFL this season, and no one is accepting that as an excuse for them. Quite frankly, if Forte was a little more explosive he'd be past the LOS before the defenders were in the backfield. He just isn't that good of an RB.

I hope Forte owners saw SJax yesterday for proof what elite talent can do behind an inferior line.Forte would look like a stud if he had a great o-line. But what rb that plays in the NFL wouldn't?

 

[corpcow]

I don't see Forte as an elite talent... but he has a nice, balanced skill set. That said, and as already mentioned in this thread, CHI's run blocking is atrocious right now. Forte is hit in the backfield consistently. It would be hard for any RB to produce strong rushing stats under those conditions.

An elite RB would make someone miss in the backfield.

He isnt getting hit by one guy in the backfield. He is getting gang-tackled by 3-4-5 guys in the backfield.They did another great segment on the Bears running game on NFL network show Playbook the other day. Really showing in detail how poorly the line is blocking, especially Omiyale who finally got benched. It might be on NFL.com somewhere for viewing.

Please don't strip my emoticon when quoting, because that was meant to be tongue in cheek.That said, I maintain my stance that Forte is not an elite talent... that he is a slightly above average back who had extraordinary rookie numbers because of extraordinary opportunity, and he was severely overvalued this offseason as a result of those numbers. Blame the blocking all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that his YPC was sub-4.0 last year as well (which is what all of us "haters" said here from the beginning). We the Doubters expected his opportunity to decrease, and understood that he would have to have a significant improvement in productivity to offset this diminished opportunity. He hasn't. I think it's important to look beyond the absolute results and understand how those numbers came to be. When you look at someone like CJ or MJD or Felix Jones or whatever, you see a lot of productivity with a few touches... and you can see upside because they have a lot of room to grow on the opportunity side. For the latter two, we've seen the results there. For a guy like Forte, I hate to say it this early in his career, but I think we've seen his ceiling.

 

[RBM]

I don't see Forte as an elite talent... but he has a nice, balanced skill set. That said, and as already mentioned in this thread, CHI's run blocking is atrocious right now. Forte is hit in the backfield consistently. It would be hard for any RB to produce strong rushing stats under those conditions.

An elite RB would make someone miss in the backfield.

He isnt getting hit by one guy in the backfield. He is getting gang-tackled by 3-4-5 guys in the backfield.

This is happening to a few other guys in the NFL this season, and no one is accepting that as an excuse for them. Quite frankly, if Forte was a little more explosive he'd be past the LOS before the defenders were in the backfield. He just isn't that good of an RB.

First of all, Jackson's o-line has been opening big holes for him lately. Second, Forte isnt close to the talent Jackson is. Not many are.Forte is a good back, not great but he does everything well. If the Bears didnt have so many problems with their run blocking this year, Forte would be top 10. Nothing wrong with needing good blocking.

 

[switz]

I don't see Forte as an elite talent... but he has a nice, balanced skill set. That said, and as already mentioned in this thread, CHI's run blocking is atrocious right now. Forte is hit in the backfield consistently. It would be hard for any RB to produce strong rushing stats under those conditions.

An elite RB would make someone miss in the backfield.

He isnt getting hit by one guy in the backfield. He is getting gang-tackled by 3-4-5 guys in the backfield.

This is happening to a few other guys in the NFL this season, and no one is accepting that as an excuse for them. Quite frankly, if Forte was a little more explosive he'd be past the LOS before the defenders were in the backfield. He just isn't that good of an RB.

First of all, Jackson's o-line has been opening big holes for him lately. Second, Forte isnt close to the talent Jackson is. Not many are.Forte is a good back, not great but he does everything well. If the Bears didnt have so many problems with their run blocking this year, Forte would be top 10. Nothing wrong with needing good blocking.

You are describing Vince Workman to a tee. I don't think he was ever a top-10 FF RB. And Forte won't be without a TON of opportunity. That's what all of us "haters" have been saying all along. He is not very productive on his touches due to being an inferior talent at the position, and so he will need a tremendous amount of opportunity to put up good overall numbers.Come on, the guy just stunk against CLE...

 

[Dragon1952]

Even against an inferior rushing defense, you need run blocking. Chicago is worse than San Diego in that department. You'd have to be a Barry Sanders type to get more than 3.5 ypc with those OL's.

 

[RBM]

Here is the breakdown of the Bears running game from NFL network

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-play...Browns-vs-Bears

 

[CentralPA]

You are describing Vince Workman to a tee. I don't think he was ever a top-10 FF RB. And Forte won't be without a TON of opportunity. That's what all of us "haters" have been saying all along. He is not very productive on his touches due to being an inferior talent at the position, and so he will need a tremendous amount of opportunity to put up good overall numbers.Come on, the guy just stunk against CLE...

I'll take 90 and 2 TDs any day of the week, I wouldn't consider that a "stink"

 

[Ghost Rider]

I'll take 90 and 2 TDs any day of the week, I wouldn't consider that a "stink"

In FF terms, 90 yards and 2 TDs is obviously a very good day, but in real football terms, averaging a paltry 3.46 YPC against a bad defense like Cleveland is not very good. Obviously, their O-line is terrible right now, but like others have said, Forte really isn't the type of back to make something out of nothing, so his upside is severely limited until their line improves.