What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Eddie Gaedel -- Midget ballplayer (1 Viewer)

Raider Nation

Devil's Advocate
[This topic could apply to any sport, which is why this is not in the baseball forum.]

For those who don't know who Eddie was:

Edward Carl "Eddie" Gaedel (June 8, 1925 - June 18, 1961), was an American with dwarfism who became famous for participating in a Major League Baseball game.

Gaedel gained immortality in the second game of a St. Louis Browns doubleheader on Sunday, Aug. 19, 1951. Weighing 65 pounds and standing 3 feet 7 inches tall, he became the shortest player in the history of the major leagues. He made a single plate appearance and was walked with four consecutive balls before being replaced by a pinch-runner at first base. His jersey, bearing the uniform number ⅛, is displayed in the Baseball Hall of Fame.
I remember reading that after Browns owner Bill Veeck pulled this stunt, baseball instituted a "no midgets" policy (not in that exact term), though I cannot find anything to back that up. All I see is that the commissioner's office needs to approve all player transactions before anyone takes the field. In this day and age of political correctness, I don't see how MLB could legally prevent a little person from going up to the plate. If the pitcher can't throw him a strike, he can't throw him a strike. I don't see how a clear case of size discrimination could be upheld.

And where do you draw the line? Is a 4'0" man allowed to play baseball? How about a 4'9" man?

American League president Will Harridge, saying Veeck was making a mockery of the game, voided Gaedel's contract the next day. In response, Veeck threatened to request an official ruling on whether Yankees shortstop and reigning MVP Phil Rizzuto was a short ballplayer or a tall midget.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Mr. Retukes said:
Less of a "No Midgets Rule", and more of a "No Publicity Stunt Players Rule".
So if Gaedel is presented to the commissioner's office as "a diminutive player who excels at drawing walks," how is that a publicity stunt?
 
Mr. Retukes said:
Less of a "No Midgets Rule", and more of a "No Publicity Stunt Players Rule".
So if Gaedel is presented to the commissioner's office as "a diminutive player who excels at drawing walks," how is that a publicity stunt?
Odds are his complete lack of HS, college, and minor league playing experience would be a tip off that it was a publicity stunt.
 
Mr. Retukes said:
Less of a "No Midgets Rule", and more of a "No Publicity Stunt Players Rule".
So if Gaedel is presented to the commissioner's office as "a diminutive player who excels at drawing walks," how is that a publicity stunt?
Odds are his complete lack of HS, college, and minor league playing experience would be a tip off that it was a publicity stunt.
Late bloomer ;) -QG
 
I believe that the rule is simply that all baseball contracts have to be approved by the league office. I would imagine they would reject any contract that "made a mockery of the game", which is what was said about the Gaedel situation.

 
On a similar note, I've always wondered why an NHL team hasn't put the time into train and develop a 500 pound sumo wrestler as a goalie. They're athletic. They're 3-4 times the size of some of the smaller goalies the NHL has had in the past.

 
On a similar note, I've always wondered why an NHL team hasn't put the time into train and develop a 500 pound sumo wrestler as a goalie. They're athletic. They're 3-4 times the size of some of the smaller goalies the NHL has had in the past.
It's the same reason that you don't see sumo wrestlers in football (e.g., as defensive/offensive linemen)... they do not have the cardiovascular conditioning to hold up over long periods of time. I've heard multiple NFL GMs all say the same thing. It's been tried in the past.
 
On a similar note, I've always wondered why an NHL team hasn't put the time into train and develop a 500 pound sumo wrestler as a goalie. They're athletic. They're 3-4 times the size of some of the smaller goalies the NHL has had in the past.
It's the same reason that you don't see sumo wrestlers in football (e.g., as defensive/offensive linemen)... they do not have the cardiovascular conditioning to hold up over long periods of time. I've heard multiple NFL GMs all say the same thing. It's been tried in the past.
They could be used as a situational player like William Perry.
 
On a similar note, I've always wondered why an NHL team hasn't put the time into train and develop a 500 pound sumo wrestler as a goalie. They're athletic. They're 3-4 times the size of some of the smaller goalies the NHL has had in the past.
It's the same reason that you don't see sumo wrestlers in football (e.g., as defensive/offensive linemen)... they do not have the cardiovascular conditioning to hold up over long periods of time. I've heard multiple NFL GMs all say the same thing. It's been tried in the past.
They could be used as a situational player like William Perry.
William Perry played more than a handful of plays a game. NFL rosters are too small to allow for non-special teams specialists.
 
I don't see how MLB could legally prevent a little person from going up to the plate. If the pitcher can't throw him a strike, he can't throw him a strike. I don't see how a clear case of size discrimination could be upheld.
My movement is picking up steam. This guy gets it.

I just finished reading the excellent book “Bill Veeck: Baseball’s Greatest Maverick” by Paul Dickson (an excellent read by the way; you’ll have a completely different viewpoint on Veeck, the integration of baseball in the last 1940s and the modern in-game experience after reading this book), and was thinking of the infamous Veeck stunt of putting in Eddie Gaedel as the lead-off hitter of a game in 1951.At the time, the commissioner Happy Chandler and the AL league president immediately voided his contract and banned Gaedel as being a “mockery of the game.” But after reading Veeck’s book, which details a near constant state of aggravation between himself and whoever was in charge of baseball at the time, its hard to determine whether this reaction was more about Gaedel or whether it was about an institutional hatred of Veeck.

However, consider this: today’s OBP-crazed baseball world, would a revisiting of someone like Gaedel be a worthwhile endeavor for a team? Imagine having a player who could lead off every game and nearly guarantee a walk every time? A runner on first with nobody out has a run-expectancy (RE) of about .826 (using 2013 numbers). The RE of a typical lead-off hitter with a .400 OBP should be about 40% of the difference between the RE of nobody-on, nobody out (.467) and nobody-on, one out (.248), or about .336. The RE difference? .826-.336 = .490. That’s nearly a half a run, per game! Maybe in practice it’d be slightly less than .490 , since your under-sized lead-off hitter may end up making an out here and there … but it wouldn’t drop that much considering how difficult it’d be to *really* throw three strikes into a strike-zone not much larger than the baseball itself.

What manager wouldn’t take nearly an additional half a run expectancy per game? That’s an awful lot of run expectancy for teams that generally average somewhere between 3.1 and 5.2 runs per game (those were the highest and lowest scoring teams in 2013 on a per-game basis). If the Nationals had half a run more per game last year, they would have had a pythagorean (expected) W/L record of 93-69, an improvement of 9 wins over their expected W/L record. Not insignificant.

Another huge difference in the game today versus 1951; a much more “understanding” American culture when it comes to discrimination of any type. How can anyone justify banning someone based on their having dwarfism or some other size-limiting disability? That’d never fly in a court of law. This topic was discussed on a sports law blog I found a few years back and the author points out some very obvious points; would the voiding of the Gaedel contract have been possible in today’s legal environment considering the Americans with Disabilities Act?

Your Eddie Gaedel hitter bats leadoff every game, walks, then is immediately replaced by whoever would have normally been your lead-off hitter. And because of this simple act, you’re likely to score about a half a run more per game.

How could anyone claim it was a mockery of the game if you demonstrated how much this move helps you win?

An interesting thought. Perhaps this is the next Billy Beane market inefficiency to exploit.
http://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=5873

 
Doesn't that expectancy drop substantially if he is slow on the base paths? Or simply lift him for a pinch runner right away?

 
Let's say it was a speed demon guy that can't hit on his own. That could result in a player that has more runs and stolen bases then hits and walks. Would be awesome.

 
Your Eddie Gaedel hitter bats leadoff every game, walks, then is immediately replaced by whoever would have normally been your lead-off hitter. And because of this simple act, you’re likely to score about a half a run more per game.
Wouldn't this only work when you are the visiting team?

Half a run a game for half the season while taking up a roster spot doesn't seem all that efficient.

 
Peter Dinklage may have a second career when Game of Thrones ends, though he's listed at 4'5". His strike zone may be too large.

 
Your Eddie Gaedel hitter bats leadoff every game, walks, then is immediately replaced by whoever would have normally been your lead-off hitter. And because of this simple act, youre likely to score about a half a run more per game.
Wouldn't this only work when you are the visiting team?

Half a run a game for half the season while taking up a roster spot doesn't seem all that efficient.
:confused:

You still have a lead off hitter in the first.

 
Your Eddie Gaedel hitter bats leadoff every game, walks, then is immediately replaced by whoever would have normally been your lead-off hitter. And because of this simple act, you’re likely to score about a half a run more per game.
Wouldn't this only work when you are the visiting team?
I don't follow.
If your are the home team, you start the game on the field. Could you risk putting him out there? Even LF, which is usually where the worst defensive player goes, would be an adventure for even a routine flyball.

 
Your Eddie Gaedel hitter bats leadoff every game, walks, then is immediately replaced by whoever would have normally been your lead-off hitter. And because of this simple act, youre likely to score about a half a run more per game.
Wouldn't this only work when you are the visiting team?
I don't follow.
If your are the home team, you start the game on the field. Could you risk putting him out there? Even LF, which is usually where the worst defensive player goes, would be an adventure for even a routine flyball.
Ha! Didn't even think of that.

 
Your Eddie Gaedel hitter bats leadoff every game, walks, then is immediately replaced by whoever would have normally been your lead-off hitter. And because of this simple act, you’re likely to score about a half a run more per game.
Wouldn't this only work when you are the visiting team?
I don't follow.
If your are the home team, you start the game on the field. Could you risk putting him out there? Even LF, which is usually where the worst defensive player goes, would be an adventure for even a routine flyball.
Oh, gotcha. Would probably have to be an AL team. Start him as the DH and then double-switch if needed.

 
Your Eddie Gaedel hitter bats leadoff every game, walks, then is immediately replaced by whoever would have normally been your lead-off hitter. And because of this simple act, youre likely to score about a half a run more per game.
Wouldn't this only work when you are the visiting team?
I don't follow.
If your are the home team, you start the game on the field. Could you risk putting him out there? Even LF, which is usually where the worst defensive player goes, would be an adventure for even a routine flyball.
Ha! Didn't even think of that.
Designated Hitter

 
He better be fast or he's going to have to be pinch ran for everytime, which makes him too invaluable (ETA: beer made me temporarily stupid) to carry on a roster.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
The more I think, to make this work, you need an entire lineup of little people and just never worry about running the bases and hope to take walk after walk. Defense will be a major major issue though.

 
Your Eddie Gaedel hitter bats leadoff every game, walks, then is immediately replaced by whoever would have normally been your lead-off hitter. And because of this simple act, youre likely to score about a half a run more per game.
Wouldn't this only work when you are the visiting team?
I don't follow.
If your are the home team, you start the game on the field. Could you risk putting him out there? Even LF, which is usually where the worst defensive player goes, would be an adventure for even a routine flyball.
Ha! Didn't even think of that.
Designated Hitter
Designated sitter.

 
The more I think, to make this work, you need an entire lineup of little people and just never worry about running the bases and hope to take walk after walk. Defense will be a major major issue though.
Wouldn't work. The opposing pitcher will throw strikes more often than a field full of midgets will record outs on defense.

 
He better be fast or he's going to have to be pinch ran for everytime, which makes him too invaluable to carry on a roster.
That's the intent. Read the article.
But that's useless. How many teams can afford to roster a guy that can't play defense, can't run the bases, and can't drive in runs?
If it's proven that he'll walk to leadoff the game almost every time, and the rules allow it, he's invaluable. Many guys never see the field during the course of the game anyway. Just carry one less bullpen arm.

 
He better be fast or he's going to have to be pinch ran for everytime, which makes him too invaluable to carry on a roster.
That's the intent. Read the article.
But that's useless. How many teams can afford to roster a guy that can't play defense, can't run the bases, and can't drive in runs?
How many of the last rostered guys can theoretically be worth half a run per game?
True. You think the pitchers could throw batting practice type pitches and consistently get them in the zone?

 
He better be fast or he's going to have to be pinch ran for everytime, which makes him too invaluable to carry on a roster.
That's the intent. Read the article.
But that's useless. How many teams can afford to roster a guy that can't play defense, can't run the bases, and can't drive in runs?
How many of the last rostered guys can theoretically be worth half a run per game?
True. You think the pitchers could throw batting practice type pitches and consistently get them in the zone?
http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/files/2013/08/Gaedel2.jpg

Letters-to-knees strike zone on this guy is maybe a foot. No margin for error.

 
He better be fast or he's going to have to be pinch ran for everytime, which makes him too invaluable to carry on a roster.
That's the intent. Read the article.
But that's useless. How many teams can afford to roster a guy that can't play defense, can't run the bases, and can't drive in runs?
Adam Dunn seems to stay employed.
You find a midget with 500 homeruns and I bet he gets steady work too.

 
He better be fast or he's going to have to be pinch ran for everytime, which makes him too invaluable to carry on a roster.
That's the intent. Read the article.
But that's useless. How many teams can afford to roster a guy that can't play defense, can't run the bases, and can't drive in runs?
How many of the last rostered guys can theoretically be worth half a run per game?
True. You think the pitchers could throw batting practice type pitches and consistently get them in the zone?
http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/files/2013/08/Gaedel2.jpg

Letters-to-knees strike zone on this guy is maybe a foot. No margin for error.
I get this, but pitchers could also just throw a BP fastball. Movement and power become irrelevant. The hitter likely couldn't get a 70 mph meatball out of the infield.

 
If the shortest guy is so valuable, imagine how valuable a Manute Bol type with no baseball skills would be.

 
Your Eddie Gaedel hitter bats leadoff every game, walks, then is immediately replaced by whoever would have normally been your lead-off hitter. And because of this simple act, youre likely to score about a half a run more per game.
Wouldn't this only work when you are the visiting team?
I don't follow.
If your are the home team, you start the game on the field. Could you risk putting him out there? Even LF, which is usually where the worst defensive player goes, would be an adventure for even a routine flyball.
Ha! Didn't even think of that.
Designated Hitter
this keeps looking liked Designated Hitler to me,

 
On a similar note, I've always wondered why an NHL team hasn't put the time into train and develop a 500 pound sumo wrestler as a goalie. They're athletic. They're 3-4 times the size of some of the smaller goalies the NHL has had in the past.
I read somewhere that this would not work as easily as one would think. They still don't block enough net to foil an NHL sharpshooter, aren't mobile enough, and NHL rules limit the size of pads, blockers, and other equipment they could wear. The guy would end up 60% uncovered and unprotected, doubtful to last a whole game. I think Sport Science did it on one episode.

 
On a similar note, I've always wondered why an NHL team hasn't put the time into train and develop a 500 pound sumo wrestler as a goalie. They're athletic. They're 3-4 times the size of some of the smaller goalies the NHL has had in the past.
I read somewhere that this would not work as easily as one would think. They still don't block enough net to foil an NHL sharpshooter, aren't mobile enough, and NHL rules limit the size of pads, blockers, and other equipment they could wear. The guy would end up 60% uncovered and unprotected, doubtful to last a whole game. I think Sport Science did it on one episode.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP8ZVWiZUMA&feature=kp

 
On a similar note, I've always wondered why an NHL team hasn't put the time into train and develop a 500 pound sumo wrestler as a goalie. They're athletic. They're 3-4 times the size of some of the smaller goalies the NHL has had in the past.
I read somewhere that this would not work as easily as one would think. They still don't block enough net to foil an NHL sharpshooter, aren't mobile enough, and NHL rules limit the size of pads, blockers, and other equipment they could wear. The guy would end up 60% uncovered and unprotected, doubtful to last a whole game. I think Sport Science did it on one episode.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP8ZVWiZUMA&feature=kp
"But he couldn't get out of bed."

:lmao: :lmao:

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top