Electric Cars (Tesla and Others) (2 Viewers)

[Hawks64]

Speaking of safety....

The Sounds of Rivian - Rivian Stories | Electric Vehicle Adventures

How nature inspired our audio ecosystem

stories.rivian.com

I didn't realize the Rivian made an external sound when approaching pedestrians and cyclists.

After month I have to say this is the most well thought out vehicle I've ever sat in.

What's the story behind people making Rivian? What seems to be the driving force and what is important to them? Who are they and what's their history?

From an interview with CEO

Our society tends to view people with obsessions as weird. Do you think everyone should have one?


I think indifference is a real challenge to society’s progress. I was deeply passionate about cars and transportation. Then as I got older, I realized these things I loved and grew up dreaming about—from a very young age, I would have windshields and engines in my room—were the source of so many of our macro challenges as society. Everything from the vast majority of wars, to the fact that every major city in the world has air quality issues largely as a result of cars, to climate change. It led me to say, “Well, can I be a helpful participant in driving some of the change we need to see?” Which of course led to me creating Rivian.

There are two ways to go about your business. One is to be boastful and puff yourself up. That works in business and politics. You have Elon and Trump. And then the other way is to be quiet. You’ve been the latter. Why pick that route?

You have to be authentic to who you are. My baseline is understated. I’m not by any means shy, but I’d rather put my head down and focus on execution. And I think one of the big challenges we have as a society is that there’s so much noise in the system. And there’s a lot of hype. There’s a lot of digital bullying of all sorts. As a company, we want to represent something different. And we want to make sure we’re focused on results.

The reason Rivian was created, and the reason we’re working hard, is to create products that shift mindsets and to create incredible experiences. Not to build something that in any way is trying to create polarization or trying to say “us versus them.” The scale of the challenge we have in terms of transitioning to sustainable energy is enormous, and this is not the time to be throwing stones.

Not only are you trying to get cars off the line, you’re dealing with a company that’s gone public during COVID with the supply chain crises and you don’t seem frazzled. What’s your secret?


This is so much easier than 2010 and 2011. We couldn’t make payroll. Like every other week, we were running out of cash. And we had 14, 15, 20 employees and we’re trying to start a car company. That’s hard. Today we have products people love, we have a clear line of sight to profitability. We’re ramping up, and the next product has been developed by this incredible team.

We started setting up our plant in February of 2020. You couldn’t have picked a worse time. Imagine installing a billion and a half dollars worth of equipment starting in February 2020. We had to be creative. And then immediately after getting all the equipment installed, we had this massive supply chain shortage, which basically meant we had a plant that we couldn’t run. And it’s very public—we are a public company, so we got punched in the face, so to speak, in front of everyone. But that was okay. Like, we got through it.

Wait, you’re saying that that was the chill part?

That was hard, but I knew it was gonna be hard. You don’t start a production plant in a car company thinking it’s going to be a walk on the beach. It’s going to be hard. If you want to join a company where you’re walking on a paved path, and there’s a cool breeze, and the sun’s in just the right spot, this isn’t that company. If you want to join a place where you’re going to be climbing up the side of a mountain, there’s no trail markers, and sometimes you grab a rock and the rock pulls out and you’re like, Oh, damn, what do I hold on to now? So it’s exciting, it’s invigorating, it’s going to stretch you. If you go in with that mindset, that’s a totally different outcome.

Thanks. They're still hemorrhaging money, though, right? Or has that changed? https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

They are public...check it out https://rivian.com/investors

 

[pollardsvision]

US can't support widespread EV's and consumers don't want them.

Not yet and not yet.

I don't wan't one, but 5-10 year from now? The speed of the adoption was grossly overestimated, but when they improve the network, and sort the battery replacement thing......

Still early days for this tech.

I agree.

It's coming. Just not as quickly as a lot of smart people were saying 12 months ago.

 

[Chaos34]

Hertz is selling off a their EV fleet.

That is not terribly surprising.

It's not just unsurprising, it's standard operations for all large rental car companies. My first job after college was with Hertz' parent company in the auditing dept. Selling the fleet before 30k miles was a huge part of the operation. 20k Teslas hitting the market? Less than 600 currently available? I would expect bigger numbers tbh. That bit is a non-story and calling it selling off their fleet is sensationalizing a common practice.

The pertinent part of the story is EVs are typically a poor choice for a rental. The hassle of charging while traveling and learning the touch screen are inconvenient for most rental applications. They also get the Camaro/Mustang treatment for idgits who want to rent something fast to abuse, so no kidding repairs are an issue. I would advise someone considering an EV to rent one for a few days though. They are the future.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I was really just posting it as "if you're looking for a deal..."

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Ugh. My 2017 Nissan Armada needs a new transmission. Cost is $8400.

Powertrain warranty is 60,000 miles. Of course I have, not even joking here, 61,000 miles on the vehicle.

Now I'm also hearing a weird sound from the engine. Quick google search says that sound is usually indicative of a problem that requires a FULL ENGINE REBUILD.

I reached out to Nissan to see if they'd help cover some of the repair, which apparently they do sometimes if you're barely out of warranty and have a good history with them (I've had several Nissans). But that usually requires immaculate upkeep of the vehicle and I hadn't gotten around to my $1000 scheduled maintenance I was supposed to do at 55,000 miles yet, so I'm not holding my breath.

If they don't cover it or most of it I may just cut my losses and sell this thing for parts and jump onboard the EV train sooner than I was planning. I really wanted to hold out another year or two though because I'm extremely interested in the Lucid Gravity.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Have had my '15 S for 5 years. Just spent my first $$ on non-tire maintenance.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Speaking of safety....

The Sounds of Rivian - Rivian Stories | Electric Vehicle Adventures

How nature inspired our audio ecosystem

stories.rivian.com

I didn't realize the Rivian made an external sound when approaching pedestrians and cyclists.

After month I have to say this is the most well thought out vehicle I've ever sat in.

What's the story behind people making Rivian? What seems to be the driving force and what is important to them? Who are they and what's their history?

From an interview with CEO

Our society tends to view people with obsessions as weird. Do you think everyone should have one?


I think indifference is a real challenge to society’s progress. I was deeply passionate about cars and transportation. Then as I got older, I realized these things I loved and grew up dreaming about—from a very young age, I would have windshields and engines in my room—were the source of so many of our macro challenges as society. Everything from the vast majority of wars, to the fact that every major city in the world has air quality issues largely as a result of cars, to climate change. It led me to say, “Well, can I be a helpful participant in driving some of the change we need to see?” Which of course led to me creating Rivian.

There are two ways to go about your business. One is to be boastful and puff yourself up. That works in business and politics. You have Elon and Trump. And then the other way is to be quiet. You’ve been the latter. Why pick that route?

You have to be authentic to who you are. My baseline is understated. I’m not by any means shy, but I’d rather put my head down and focus on execution. And I think one of the big challenges we have as a society is that there’s so much noise in the system. And there’s a lot of hype. There’s a lot of digital bullying of all sorts. As a company, we want to represent something different. And we want to make sure we’re focused on results.

The reason Rivian was created, and the reason we’re working hard, is to create products that shift mindsets and to create incredible experiences. Not to build something that in any way is trying to create polarization or trying to say “us versus them.” The scale of the challenge we have in terms of transitioning to sustainable energy is enormous, and this is not the time to be throwing stones.

Not only are you trying to get cars off the line, you’re dealing with a company that’s gone public during COVID with the supply chain crises and you don’t seem frazzled. What’s your secret?


This is so much easier than 2010 and 2011. We couldn’t make payroll. Like every other week, we were running out of cash. And we had 14, 15, 20 employees and we’re trying to start a car company. That’s hard. Today we have products people love, we have a clear line of sight to profitability. We’re ramping up, and the next product has been developed by this incredible team.

We started setting up our plant in February of 2020. You couldn’t have picked a worse time. Imagine installing a billion and a half dollars worth of equipment starting in February 2020. We had to be creative. And then immediately after getting all the equipment installed, we had this massive supply chain shortage, which basically meant we had a plant that we couldn’t run. And it’s very public—we are a public company, so we got punched in the face, so to speak, in front of everyone. But that was okay. Like, we got through it.

Wait, you’re saying that that was the chill part?

That was hard, but I knew it was gonna be hard. You don’t start a production plant in a car company thinking it’s going to be a walk on the beach. It’s going to be hard. If you want to join a company where you’re walking on a paved path, and there’s a cool breeze, and the sun’s in just the right spot, this isn’t that company. If you want to join a place where you’re going to be climbing up the side of a mountain, there’s no trail markers, and sometimes you grab a rock and the rock pulls out and you’re like, Oh, damn, what do I hold on to now? So it’s exciting, it’s invigorating, it’s going to stretch you. If you go in with that mindset, that’s a totally different outcome.

Thanks. They're still hemorrhaging money, though, right? Or has that changed? https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

They are public...check it out https://rivian.com/investors

Yes. I know that. They're not going to lead with the "we lose a huge amount of money on every vehicle" on their site though. It gets disclosed eventually for public companies if you know how to dig and look deeper. But it's obviously not something they'll lead with.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Ugh. My 2017 Nissan Armada needs a new transmission. Cost is $8400.

Powertrain warranty is 60,000 miles. Of course I have, not even joking here, 61,000 miles on the vehicle.

Now I'm also hearing a weird sound from the engine. Quick google search says that sound is usually indicative of a problem that requires a FULL ENGINE REBUILD.

I reached out to Nissan to see if they'd help cover some of the repair, which apparently they do sometimes if you're barely out of warranty and have a good history with them (I've had several Nissans). But that usually requires immaculate upkeep of the vehicle and I hadn't gotten around to my $1000 scheduled maintenance I was supposed to do at 55,000 miles yet, so I'm not holding my breath.

If they don't cover it or most of it I may just cut my losses and sell this thing for parts and jump onboard the EV train sooner than I was planning. I really wanted to hold out another year or two though because I'm extremely interested in the Lucid Gravity.

I'm not sure on Nissan but I had a Dodge truck with a similar thing with a major repair just past warranty and they covered it. It's always worth asking as there's quite a bit of gray area there I think for them to do something.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Ugh. My 2017 Nissan Armada needs a new transmission. Cost is $8400.

Powertrain warranty is 60,000 miles. Of course I have, not even joking here, 61,000 miles on the vehicle.

Now I'm also hearing a weird sound from the engine. Quick google search says that sound is usually indicative of a problem that requires a FULL ENGINE REBUILD.

I reached out to Nissan to see if they'd help cover some of the repair, which apparently they do sometimes if you're barely out of warranty and have a good history with them (I've had several Nissans). But that usually requires immaculate upkeep of the vehicle and I hadn't gotten around to my $1000 scheduled maintenance I was supposed to do at 55,000 miles yet, so I'm not holding my breath.

If they don't cover it or most of it I may just cut my losses and sell this thing for parts and jump onboard the EV train sooner than I was planning. I really wanted to hold out another year or two though because I'm extremely interested in the Lucid Gravity.

I'm not sure on Nissan but I had a Dodge truck with a similar thing with a major repair just past warranty and they covered it. It's always worth asking as there's quite a bit of gray area there I think for them to do something.

Nice I hope I get similar news! Nissan has a program for this and I have a case open with them. Trying to kill them with kindness every time they reach out. Case has been open for a few days and in the meantime I can still drive the car, I just can't shift into reverse. I've been pretty good about remembering to park only in pull-through spaces but today at my son's doctor's appointment I forgot and pulled into a spot. So when we got out I had to have him sit in the drivers seat ready to hit the brake with the car in neutral while I pushed the 6000lb car backwards far enough out of the spot . After all these years those squats are finally paying off!

 

[BlackCrowes]

Have had my '15 S for 5 years. Just spent my first $$ on non-tire maintenance.

2017 here. Got it new. Best thing I’ve ever bought.

 

[TennesseeJed]

The pertinent part of the story is EVs are typically a poor choice for a rental.

This was the point I was trying to make - it's a tough transition if you don't already have a EV.

I think the calculus on that won't shift until charging stations are plentiful, and set-up for 1-time use - just like a gas station.

I don't have an EV, but my understanding from when we had the EV/Hybrid rental is that it required me to set up an account with one of the charging companies - which was more hassle than I wanted, even with a long-term rental. For most rentals - you just don't have the car enough to want to do the extra work.

 

[the moops]

We rented a Tesla once. It was easy as can be to pull into a grocery store parking lot and charge while shopping. I think some people are just looking for an excuse

 

[TennesseeJed]

We rented a Tesla once. It was easy as can be to pull into a grocery store parking lot and charge while shopping. I think some people are just looking for an excuse

I imagine if you are used to it - its easy.

It's the getting used to it, and changing comfort zones that will be more difficult. Early adopters generally don't mind change/trying new things. I think that gets harder to sell to many middle-age folks set in their ways.

I think once the network of chargers expands, and people understand them better, you will see wider adoption of EVs.


Side question - how does this work in NJ and Oregon - do they have to use a full-service charging station ;-)

 

[BassNBrew]

We rented a Tesla once. It was easy as can be to pull into a grocery store parking lot and charge while shopping. I think some people are just looking for an excuse

I rented a Tesla Y for most of August-November at $200 a week. Cheaper than the payment and I could charge it to 100%. Did a great job hauling limbs I had trimmed but it did take me 30 minutes to get the leaves mostly out. By mostly, when I folded the seats down when I got it back a month later their were still a few there. After that everyone if the office forbid me to haul a deer to the processor in it.

But if anyone decides to roll the dice on a used Tesla, go for something under $25000 and you'll get $4000 back from Uncle Sam.

 

[Hawks64]

Speaking of safety....

The Sounds of Rivian - Rivian Stories | Electric Vehicle Adventures

How nature inspired our audio ecosystem

stories.rivian.com

I didn't realize the Rivian made an external sound when approaching pedestrians and cyclists.

After month I have to say this is the most well thought out vehicle I've ever sat in.

What's the story behind people making Rivian? What seems to be the driving force and what is important to them? Who are they and what's their history?

From an interview with CEO

Our society tends to view people with obsessions as weird. Do you think everyone should have one?


I think indifference is a real challenge to society’s progress. I was deeply passionate about cars and transportation. Then as I got older, I realized these things I loved and grew up dreaming about—from a very young age, I would have windshields and engines in my room—were the source of so many of our macro challenges as society. Everything from the vast majority of wars, to the fact that every major city in the world has air quality issues largely as a result of cars, to climate change. It led me to say, “Well, can I be a helpful participant in driving some of the change we need to see?” Which of course led to me creating Rivian.

There are two ways to go about your business. One is to be boastful and puff yourself up. That works in business and politics. You have Elon and Trump. And then the other way is to be quiet. You’ve been the latter. Why pick that route?

You have to be authentic to who you are. My baseline is understated. I’m not by any means shy, but I’d rather put my head down and focus on execution. And I think one of the big challenges we have as a society is that there’s so much noise in the system. And there’s a lot of hype. There’s a lot of digital bullying of all sorts. As a company, we want to represent something different. And we want to make sure we’re focused on results.

The reason Rivian was created, and the reason we’re working hard, is to create products that shift mindsets and to create incredible experiences. Not to build something that in any way is trying to create polarization or trying to say “us versus them.” The scale of the challenge we have in terms of transitioning to sustainable energy is enormous, and this is not the time to be throwing stones.

Not only are you trying to get cars off the line, you’re dealing with a company that’s gone public during COVID with the supply chain crises and you don’t seem frazzled. What’s your secret?


This is so much easier than 2010 and 2011. We couldn’t make payroll. Like every other week, we were running out of cash. And we had 14, 15, 20 employees and we’re trying to start a car company. That’s hard. Today we have products people love, we have a clear line of sight to profitability. We’re ramping up, and the next product has been developed by this incredible team.

We started setting up our plant in February of 2020. You couldn’t have picked a worse time. Imagine installing a billion and a half dollars worth of equipment starting in February 2020. We had to be creative. And then immediately after getting all the equipment installed, we had this massive supply chain shortage, which basically meant we had a plant that we couldn’t run. And it’s very public—we are a public company, so we got punched in the face, so to speak, in front of everyone. But that was okay. Like, we got through it.

Wait, you’re saying that that was the chill part?

That was hard, but I knew it was gonna be hard. You don’t start a production plant in a car company thinking it’s going to be a walk on the beach. It’s going to be hard. If you want to join a company where you’re walking on a paved path, and there’s a cool breeze, and the sun’s in just the right spot, this isn’t that company. If you want to join a place where you’re going to be climbing up the side of a mountain, there’s no trail markers, and sometimes you grab a rock and the rock pulls out and you’re like, Oh, damn, what do I hold on to now? So it’s exciting, it’s invigorating, it’s going to stretch you. If you go in with that mindset, that’s a totally different outcome.

Thanks. They're still hemorrhaging money, though, right? Or has that changed? https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

They are public...check it out https://rivian.com/investors

Yes. I know that. They're not going to lead with the "we lose a huge amount of money on every vehicle" on their site though. It gets disclosed eventually for public companies if you know how to dig and look deeper. But it's obviously not something they'll lead with.

Because they are public, they absolutely have to give unfiltered financial results, so yes they lead with them. Just need to read the Q results and the 10Ks and you'll know an immense amount about their business.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Speaking of safety....

The Sounds of Rivian - Rivian Stories | Electric Vehicle Adventures

How nature inspired our audio ecosystem

stories.rivian.com

I didn't realize the Rivian made an external sound when approaching pedestrians and cyclists.

After month I have to say this is the most well thought out vehicle I've ever sat in.

What's the story behind people making Rivian? What seems to be the driving force and what is important to them? Who are they and what's their history?

From an interview with CEO

Our society tends to view people with obsessions as weird. Do you think everyone should have one?


I think indifference is a real challenge to society’s progress. I was deeply passionate about cars and transportation. Then as I got older, I realized these things I loved and grew up dreaming about—from a very young age, I would have windshields and engines in my room—were the source of so many of our macro challenges as society. Everything from the vast majority of wars, to the fact that every major city in the world has air quality issues largely as a result of cars, to climate change. It led me to say, “Well, can I be a helpful participant in driving some of the change we need to see?” Which of course led to me creating Rivian.

There are two ways to go about your business. One is to be boastful and puff yourself up. That works in business and politics. You have Elon and Trump. And then the other way is to be quiet. You’ve been the latter. Why pick that route?

You have to be authentic to who you are. My baseline is understated. I’m not by any means shy, but I’d rather put my head down and focus on execution. And I think one of the big challenges we have as a society is that there’s so much noise in the system. And there’s a lot of hype. There’s a lot of digital bullying of all sorts. As a company, we want to represent something different. And we want to make sure we’re focused on results.

The reason Rivian was created, and the reason we’re working hard, is to create products that shift mindsets and to create incredible experiences. Not to build something that in any way is trying to create polarization or trying to say “us versus them.” The scale of the challenge we have in terms of transitioning to sustainable energy is enormous, and this is not the time to be throwing stones.

Not only are you trying to get cars off the line, you’re dealing with a company that’s gone public during COVID with the supply chain crises and you don’t seem frazzled. What’s your secret?


This is so much easier than 2010 and 2011. We couldn’t make payroll. Like every other week, we were running out of cash. And we had 14, 15, 20 employees and we’re trying to start a car company. That’s hard. Today we have products people love, we have a clear line of sight to profitability. We’re ramping up, and the next product has been developed by this incredible team.

We started setting up our plant in February of 2020. You couldn’t have picked a worse time. Imagine installing a billion and a half dollars worth of equipment starting in February 2020. We had to be creative. And then immediately after getting all the equipment installed, we had this massive supply chain shortage, which basically meant we had a plant that we couldn’t run. And it’s very public—we are a public company, so we got punched in the face, so to speak, in front of everyone. But that was okay. Like, we got through it.

Wait, you’re saying that that was the chill part?

That was hard, but I knew it was gonna be hard. You don’t start a production plant in a car company thinking it’s going to be a walk on the beach. It’s going to be hard. If you want to join a company where you’re walking on a paved path, and there’s a cool breeze, and the sun’s in just the right spot, this isn’t that company. If you want to join a place where you’re going to be climbing up the side of a mountain, there’s no trail markers, and sometimes you grab a rock and the rock pulls out and you’re like, Oh, damn, what do I hold on to now? So it’s exciting, it’s invigorating, it’s going to stretch you. If you go in with that mindset, that’s a totally different outcome.

Thanks. They're still hemorrhaging money, though, right? Or has that changed? https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

They are public...check it out https://rivian.com/investors

Yes. I know that. They're not going to lead with the "we lose a huge amount of money on every vehicle" on their site though. It gets disclosed eventually for public companies if you know how to dig and look deeper. But it's obviously not something they'll lead with.

Because they are public, they absolutely have to give unfiltered financial results, so yes they lead with them. Just need to read the Q results and the 10Ks and you'll know an immense amount about their business.

We'll just disagree if you think they lead with the story of how much they're losing on every vehicle. No worries.

from the Motor Trend article https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

​

Rivian Loses a Huge Amount on Every Vehicle It Sells​

I asked a simple question about whether this was still the case.

Was not surprised to see the responses be "analyze the financials".

That's understandable for their part to deflect with the businessspeak.

We reached out to Rivian and asked how it plans to close the profit gap and if the complexities of its engineering is hurting their bottom line. A Rivian spokesperson provided the following statement: "As RJ [Scaringe] noted on CNBC, Q3 deliveries exceeded analyst expectations, demand is strong, and our ramp continues to make progress. Loss per vehicle has improved quarter over quarter, and the path to profitability remains our objective."

I'm sure they're a wonderful company. It was a small point I was interested in. No worries.

 

[BassNBrew]

Speaking of safety....

The Sounds of Rivian - Rivian Stories | Electric Vehicle Adventures

How nature inspired our audio ecosystem

stories.rivian.com

I didn't realize the Rivian made an external sound when approaching pedestrians and cyclists.

After month I have to say this is the most well thought out vehicle I've ever sat in.

What's the story behind people making Rivian? What seems to be the driving force and what is important to them? Who are they and what's their history?

From an interview with CEO

Our society tends to view people with obsessions as weird. Do you think everyone should have one?


I think indifference is a real challenge to society’s progress. I was deeply passionate about cars and transportation. Then as I got older, I realized these things I loved and grew up dreaming about—from a very young age, I would have windshields and engines in my room—were the source of so many of our macro challenges as society. Everything from the vast majority of wars, to the fact that every major city in the world has air quality issues largely as a result of cars, to climate change. It led me to say, “Well, can I be a helpful participant in driving some of the change we need to see?” Which of course led to me creating Rivian.

There are two ways to go about your business. One is to be boastful and puff yourself up. That works in business and politics. You have Elon and Trump. And then the other way is to be quiet. You’ve been the latter. Why pick that route?

You have to be authentic to who you are. My baseline is understated. I’m not by any means shy, but I’d rather put my head down and focus on execution. And I think one of the big challenges we have as a society is that there’s so much noise in the system. And there’s a lot of hype. There’s a lot of digital bullying of all sorts. As a company, we want to represent something different. And we want to make sure we’re focused on results.

The reason Rivian was created, and the reason we’re working hard, is to create products that shift mindsets and to create incredible experiences. Not to build something that in any way is trying to create polarization or trying to say “us versus them.” The scale of the challenge we have in terms of transitioning to sustainable energy is enormous, and this is not the time to be throwing stones.

Not only are you trying to get cars off the line, you’re dealing with a company that’s gone public during COVID with the supply chain crises and you don’t seem frazzled. What’s your secret?


This is so much easier than 2010 and 2011. We couldn’t make payroll. Like every other week, we were running out of cash. And we had 14, 15, 20 employees and we’re trying to start a car company. That’s hard. Today we have products people love, we have a clear line of sight to profitability. We’re ramping up, and the next product has been developed by this incredible team.

We started setting up our plant in February of 2020. You couldn’t have picked a worse time. Imagine installing a billion and a half dollars worth of equipment starting in February 2020. We had to be creative. And then immediately after getting all the equipment installed, we had this massive supply chain shortage, which basically meant we had a plant that we couldn’t run. And it’s very public—we are a public company, so we got punched in the face, so to speak, in front of everyone. But that was okay. Like, we got through it.

Wait, you’re saying that that was the chill part?

That was hard, but I knew it was gonna be hard. You don’t start a production plant in a car company thinking it’s going to be a walk on the beach. It’s going to be hard. If you want to join a company where you’re walking on a paved path, and there’s a cool breeze, and the sun’s in just the right spot, this isn’t that company. If you want to join a place where you’re going to be climbing up the side of a mountain, there’s no trail markers, and sometimes you grab a rock and the rock pulls out and you’re like, Oh, damn, what do I hold on to now? So it’s exciting, it’s invigorating, it’s going to stretch you. If you go in with that mindset, that’s a totally different outcome.

Thanks. They're still hemorrhaging money, though, right? Or has that changed? https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

They are public...check it out https://rivian.com/investors

Yes. I know that. They're not going to lead with the "we lose a huge amount of money on every vehicle" on their site though. It gets disclosed eventually for public companies if you know how to dig and look deeper. But it's obviously not something they'll lead with.

Because they are public, they absolutely have to give unfiltered financial results, so yes they lead with them. Just need to read the Q results and the 10Ks and you'll know an immense amount about their business.

We'll just disagree if you think they lead with the story of how much they're losing on every vehicle. No worries.

from the Motor Trend article https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

​

Rivian Loses a Huge Amount on Every Vehicle It Sells​

I asked a simple question about whether this was still the case.

Was not surprised to see the responses be "analyze the financials".

That's understandable for their part to deflect with the businessspeak.

We reached out to Rivian and asked how it plans to close the profit gap and if the complexities of its engineering is hurting their bottom line. A Rivian spokesperson provided the following statement: "As RJ [Scaringe] noted on CNBC, Q3 deliveries exceeded analyst expectations, demand is strong, and our ramp continues to make progress. Loss per vehicle has improved quarter over quarter, and the path to profitability remains our objective."

I'm sure they're a wonderful company. It was a small point I was interested in. No worries.

If they do as good of a job on the R2 as they appear to have on the R1 they will survive.

My BIL who has pooped on EV trucks for a while took a ride with me and said, "I was wrong. Everything about that truck is amazing."

 

[Joe Bryant]

Speaking of safety....

The Sounds of Rivian - Rivian Stories | Electric Vehicle Adventures

How nature inspired our audio ecosystem

stories.rivian.com

I didn't realize the Rivian made an external sound when approaching pedestrians and cyclists.

After month I have to say this is the most well thought out vehicle I've ever sat in.

What's the story behind people making Rivian? What seems to be the driving force and what is important to them? Who are they and what's their history?

From an interview with CEO

Our society tends to view people with obsessions as weird. Do you think everyone should have one?


I think indifference is a real challenge to society’s progress. I was deeply passionate about cars and transportation. Then as I got older, I realized these things I loved and grew up dreaming about—from a very young age, I would have windshields and engines in my room—were the source of so many of our macro challenges as society. Everything from the vast majority of wars, to the fact that every major city in the world has air quality issues largely as a result of cars, to climate change. It led me to say, “Well, can I be a helpful participant in driving some of the change we need to see?” Which of course led to me creating Rivian.

There are two ways to go about your business. One is to be boastful and puff yourself up. That works in business and politics. You have Elon and Trump. And then the other way is to be quiet. You’ve been the latter. Why pick that route?

You have to be authentic to who you are. My baseline is understated. I’m not by any means shy, but I’d rather put my head down and focus on execution. And I think one of the big challenges we have as a society is that there’s so much noise in the system. And there’s a lot of hype. There’s a lot of digital bullying of all sorts. As a company, we want to represent something different. And we want to make sure we’re focused on results.

The reason Rivian was created, and the reason we’re working hard, is to create products that shift mindsets and to create incredible experiences. Not to build something that in any way is trying to create polarization or trying to say “us versus them.” The scale of the challenge we have in terms of transitioning to sustainable energy is enormous, and this is not the time to be throwing stones.

Not only are you trying to get cars off the line, you’re dealing with a company that’s gone public during COVID with the supply chain crises and you don’t seem frazzled. What’s your secret?


This is so much easier than 2010 and 2011. We couldn’t make payroll. Like every other week, we were running out of cash. And we had 14, 15, 20 employees and we’re trying to start a car company. That’s hard. Today we have products people love, we have a clear line of sight to profitability. We’re ramping up, and the next product has been developed by this incredible team.

We started setting up our plant in February of 2020. You couldn’t have picked a worse time. Imagine installing a billion and a half dollars worth of equipment starting in February 2020. We had to be creative. And then immediately after getting all the equipment installed, we had this massive supply chain shortage, which basically meant we had a plant that we couldn’t run. And it’s very public—we are a public company, so we got punched in the face, so to speak, in front of everyone. But that was okay. Like, we got through it.

Wait, you’re saying that that was the chill part?

That was hard, but I knew it was gonna be hard. You don’t start a production plant in a car company thinking it’s going to be a walk on the beach. It’s going to be hard. If you want to join a company where you’re walking on a paved path, and there’s a cool breeze, and the sun’s in just the right spot, this isn’t that company. If you want to join a place where you’re going to be climbing up the side of a mountain, there’s no trail markers, and sometimes you grab a rock and the rock pulls out and you’re like, Oh, damn, what do I hold on to now? So it’s exciting, it’s invigorating, it’s going to stretch you. If you go in with that mindset, that’s a totally different outcome.

Thanks. They're still hemorrhaging money, though, right? Or has that changed? https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

They are public...check it out https://rivian.com/investors

Yes. I know that. They're not going to lead with the "we lose a huge amount of money on every vehicle" on their site though. It gets disclosed eventually for public companies if you know how to dig and look deeper. But it's obviously not something they'll lead with.

Because they are public, they absolutely have to give unfiltered financial results, so yes they lead with them. Just need to read the Q results and the 10Ks and you'll know an immense amount about their business.

We'll just disagree if you think they lead with the story of how much they're losing on every vehicle. No worries.

from the Motor Trend article https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

​

Rivian Loses a Huge Amount on Every Vehicle It Sells​

I asked a simple question about whether this was still the case.

Was not surprised to see the responses be "analyze the financials".

That's understandable for their part to deflect with the businessspeak.

We reached out to Rivian and asked how it plans to close the profit gap and if the complexities of its engineering is hurting their bottom line. A Rivian spokesperson provided the following statement: "As RJ [Scaringe] noted on CNBC, Q3 deliveries exceeded analyst expectations, demand is strong, and our ramp continues to make progress. Loss per vehicle has improved quarter over quarter, and the path to profitability remains our objective."

I'm sure they're a wonderful company. It was a small point I was interested in. No worries.

If they do as good of a job on the R2 as they appear to have on the R1 they will survive.

My BIL who has pooped on EV trucks for a while took a ride with me and said, "I was wrong. Everything about that truck is amazing."

Thanks. I know folks love them. What specifically did your BIL think was amazing?

 

[culdeus]

We rented a Tesla once. It was easy as can be to pull into a grocery store parking lot and charge while shopping. I think some people are just looking for an excuse

It's still much easier to plug in at night. Hotels don't all have this option. SCs now at 250kw fixes some of this issue and Tesla mostly had cars capable of those speeds.

 

[BassNBrew]

Speaking of safety....

The Sounds of Rivian - Rivian Stories | Electric Vehicle Adventures

How nature inspired our audio ecosystem

stories.rivian.com

I didn't realize the Rivian made an external sound when approaching pedestrians and cyclists.

After month I have to say this is the most well thought out vehicle I've ever sat in.

What's the story behind people making Rivian? What seems to be the driving force and what is important to them? Who are they and what's their history?

From an interview with CEO

Our society tends to view people with obsessions as weird. Do you think everyone should have one?


I think indifference is a real challenge to society’s progress. I was deeply passionate about cars and transportation. Then as I got older, I realized these things I loved and grew up dreaming about—from a very young age, I would have windshields and engines in my room—were the source of so many of our macro challenges as society. Everything from the vast majority of wars, to the fact that every major city in the world has air quality issues largely as a result of cars, to climate change. It led me to say, “Well, can I be a helpful participant in driving some of the change we need to see?” Which of course led to me creating Rivian.

There are two ways to go about your business. One is to be boastful and puff yourself up. That works in business and politics. You have Elon and Trump. And then the other way is to be quiet. You’ve been the latter. Why pick that route?

You have to be authentic to who you are. My baseline is understated. I’m not by any means shy, but I’d rather put my head down and focus on execution. And I think one of the big challenges we have as a society is that there’s so much noise in the system. And there’s a lot of hype. There’s a lot of digital bullying of all sorts. As a company, we want to represent something different. And we want to make sure we’re focused on results.

The reason Rivian was created, and the reason we’re working hard, is to create products that shift mindsets and to create incredible experiences. Not to build something that in any way is trying to create polarization or trying to say “us versus them.” The scale of the challenge we have in terms of transitioning to sustainable energy is enormous, and this is not the time to be throwing stones.

Not only are you trying to get cars off the line, you’re dealing with a company that’s gone public during COVID with the supply chain crises and you don’t seem frazzled. What’s your secret?


This is so much easier than 2010 and 2011. We couldn’t make payroll. Like every other week, we were running out of cash. And we had 14, 15, 20 employees and we’re trying to start a car company. That’s hard. Today we have products people love, we have a clear line of sight to profitability. We’re ramping up, and the next product has been developed by this incredible team.

We started setting up our plant in February of 2020. You couldn’t have picked a worse time. Imagine installing a billion and a half dollars worth of equipment starting in February 2020. We had to be creative. And then immediately after getting all the equipment installed, we had this massive supply chain shortage, which basically meant we had a plant that we couldn’t run. And it’s very public—we are a public company, so we got punched in the face, so to speak, in front of everyone. But that was okay. Like, we got through it.

Wait, you’re saying that that was the chill part?

That was hard, but I knew it was gonna be hard. You don’t start a production plant in a car company thinking it’s going to be a walk on the beach. It’s going to be hard. If you want to join a company where you’re walking on a paved path, and there’s a cool breeze, and the sun’s in just the right spot, this isn’t that company. If you want to join a place where you’re going to be climbing up the side of a mountain, there’s no trail markers, and sometimes you grab a rock and the rock pulls out and you’re like, Oh, damn, what do I hold on to now? So it’s exciting, it’s invigorating, it’s going to stretch you. If you go in with that mindset, that’s a totally different outcome.

Thanks. They're still hemorrhaging money, though, right? Or has that changed? https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

They are public...check it out https://rivian.com/investors

Yes. I know that. They're not going to lead with the "we lose a huge amount of money on every vehicle" on their site though. It gets disclosed eventually for public companies if you know how to dig and look deeper. But it's obviously not something they'll lead with.

Because they are public, they absolutely have to give unfiltered financial results, so yes they lead with them. Just need to read the Q results and the 10Ks and you'll know an immense amount about their business.

We'll just disagree if you think they lead with the story of how much they're losing on every vehicle. No worries.

from the Motor Trend article https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

​

Rivian Loses a Huge Amount on Every Vehicle It Sells​

I asked a simple question about whether this was still the case.

Was not surprised to see the responses be "analyze the financials".

That's understandable for their part to deflect with the businessspeak.

We reached out to Rivian and asked how it plans to close the profit gap and if the complexities of its engineering is hurting their bottom line. A Rivian spokesperson provided the following statement: "As RJ [Scaringe] noted on CNBC, Q3 deliveries exceeded analyst expectations, demand is strong, and our ramp continues to make progress. Loss per vehicle has improved quarter over quarter, and the path to profitability remains our objective."

I'm sure they're a wonderful company. It was a small point I was interested in. No worries.

If they do as good of a job on the R2 as they appear to have on the R1 they will survive.

My BIL who has pooped on EV trucks for a while took a ride with me and said, "I was wrong. Everything about that truck is amazing."

Thanks. I know folks love them. What specifically did your BIL think was amazing?

The beginning of this video highlights a few things...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLacbYhjCpw

1. Gear tunnel: Game changer for me. With all the break ins these days I don't have to unload and load my tools every day. Also helps keeping the back seat clear.
2. On board air compressor: Very nice to run pneumatic tools or inflate a stand up paddle board.
3. Frunk storage that can double as a cooler.
4. Interior wood finish and seats: You have a vehicle that is built to work and play but still has that luxury feel.
5. Air suspension: 9 inches of travel. Easy to get in and out of but will ride high for off road.
6. Acceleration: 0-60 in 3 seconds in a truck is mind blowing.

I know they are expensive. I picked up a used one with 8000 miles that still smelled and looked new at an 18k discount. Also since its a company vehicle it only costs me 60 cents on the dollar. I'll also admit that I'm probably overly impressed coming for a 2008 truck with just under 400,000 miles.

 

[Hawks64]

Speaking of safety....

The Sounds of Rivian - Rivian Stories | Electric Vehicle Adventures

How nature inspired our audio ecosystem

stories.rivian.com

I didn't realize the Rivian made an external sound when approaching pedestrians and cyclists.

After month I have to say this is the most well thought out vehicle I've ever sat in.

What's the story behind people making Rivian? What seems to be the driving force and what is important to them? Who are they and what's their history?

From an interview with CEO

Our society tends to view people with obsessions as weird. Do you think everyone should have one?


I think indifference is a real challenge to society’s progress. I was deeply passionate about cars and transportation. Then as I got older, I realized these things I loved and grew up dreaming about—from a very young age, I would have windshields and engines in my room—were the source of so many of our macro challenges as society. Everything from the vast majority of wars, to the fact that every major city in the world has air quality issues largely as a result of cars, to climate change. It led me to say, “Well, can I be a helpful participant in driving some of the change we need to see?” Which of course led to me creating Rivian.

There are two ways to go about your business. One is to be boastful and puff yourself up. That works in business and politics. You have Elon and Trump. And then the other way is to be quiet. You’ve been the latter. Why pick that route?

You have to be authentic to who you are. My baseline is understated. I’m not by any means shy, but I’d rather put my head down and focus on execution. And I think one of the big challenges we have as a society is that there’s so much noise in the system. And there’s a lot of hype. There’s a lot of digital bullying of all sorts. As a company, we want to represent something different. And we want to make sure we’re focused on results.

The reason Rivian was created, and the reason we’re working hard, is to create products that shift mindsets and to create incredible experiences. Not to build something that in any way is trying to create polarization or trying to say “us versus them.” The scale of the challenge we have in terms of transitioning to sustainable energy is enormous, and this is not the time to be throwing stones.

Not only are you trying to get cars off the line, you’re dealing with a company that’s gone public during COVID with the supply chain crises and you don’t seem frazzled. What’s your secret?


This is so much easier than 2010 and 2011. We couldn’t make payroll. Like every other week, we were running out of cash. And we had 14, 15, 20 employees and we’re trying to start a car company. That’s hard. Today we have products people love, we have a clear line of sight to profitability. We’re ramping up, and the next product has been developed by this incredible team.

We started setting up our plant in February of 2020. You couldn’t have picked a worse time. Imagine installing a billion and a half dollars worth of equipment starting in February 2020. We had to be creative. And then immediately after getting all the equipment installed, we had this massive supply chain shortage, which basically meant we had a plant that we couldn’t run. And it’s very public—we are a public company, so we got punched in the face, so to speak, in front of everyone. But that was okay. Like, we got through it.

Wait, you’re saying that that was the chill part?

That was hard, but I knew it was gonna be hard. You don’t start a production plant in a car company thinking it’s going to be a walk on the beach. It’s going to be hard. If you want to join a company where you’re walking on a paved path, and there’s a cool breeze, and the sun’s in just the right spot, this isn’t that company. If you want to join a place where you’re going to be climbing up the side of a mountain, there’s no trail markers, and sometimes you grab a rock and the rock pulls out and you’re like, Oh, damn, what do I hold on to now? So it’s exciting, it’s invigorating, it’s going to stretch you. If you go in with that mindset, that’s a totally different outcome.

Thanks. They're still hemorrhaging money, though, right? Or has that changed? https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

They are public...check it out https://rivian.com/investors

Yes. I know that. They're not going to lead with the "we lose a huge amount of money on every vehicle" on their site though. It gets disclosed eventually for public companies if you know how to dig and look deeper. But it's obviously not something they'll lead with.

Because they are public, they absolutely have to give unfiltered financial results, so yes they lead with them. Just need to read the Q results and the 10Ks and you'll know an immense amount about their business.

We'll just disagree if you think they lead with the story of how much they're losing on every vehicle. No worries.

from the Motor Trend article https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

​

Rivian Loses a Huge Amount on Every Vehicle It Sells​

I asked a simple question about whether this was still the case.

Was not surprised to see the responses be "analyze the financials".

That's understandable for their part to deflect with the businessspeak.

We reached out to Rivian and asked how it plans to close the profit gap and if the complexities of its engineering is hurting their bottom line. A Rivian spokesperson provided the following statement: "As RJ [Scaringe] noted on CNBC, Q3 deliveries exceeded analyst expectations, demand is strong, and our ramp continues to make progress. Loss per vehicle has improved quarter over quarter, and the path to profitability remains our objective."

I'm sure they're a wonderful company. It was a small point I was interested in. No worries.

It's not about disagreeing, it's facts. Sorry, you don't want to be bothered to look at page 4 of their latest financial results where it's easy to see in the trailing nine months ending Sept 23 they have lost 1.4B in revenue with a total loss of 3.9B. Then you can see what they did the previous year and see that last year they lost 5B, so they are losing less money this year but still a significant loss.

However, they still have a ton of cash on hand at 7.9B but their cash reserves are falling, last year they had 13B.

There is no story, there is no color or spin from a magazine, there is no need to analyze anything, and the numbers are plain and easy to read. There is no deflecting in an SEC filing, not sure why you are so resistant to actually looking at it. There is no businesspeak, this isn't a private company.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Speaking of safety....

The Sounds of Rivian - Rivian Stories | Electric Vehicle Adventures

How nature inspired our audio ecosystem

stories.rivian.com

I didn't realize the Rivian made an external sound when approaching pedestrians and cyclists.

After month I have to say this is the most well thought out vehicle I've ever sat in.

What's the story behind people making Rivian? What seems to be the driving force and what is important to them? Who are they and what's their history?

From an interview with CEO

Our society tends to view people with obsessions as weird. Do you think everyone should have one?


I think indifference is a real challenge to society’s progress. I was deeply passionate about cars and transportation. Then as I got older, I realized these things I loved and grew up dreaming about—from a very young age, I would have windshields and engines in my room—were the source of so many of our macro challenges as society. Everything from the vast majority of wars, to the fact that every major city in the world has air quality issues largely as a result of cars, to climate change. It led me to say, “Well, can I be a helpful participant in driving some of the change we need to see?” Which of course led to me creating Rivian.

There are two ways to go about your business. One is to be boastful and puff yourself up. That works in business and politics. You have Elon and Trump. And then the other way is to be quiet. You’ve been the latter. Why pick that route?

You have to be authentic to who you are. My baseline is understated. I’m not by any means shy, but I’d rather put my head down and focus on execution. And I think one of the big challenges we have as a society is that there’s so much noise in the system. And there’s a lot of hype. There’s a lot of digital bullying of all sorts. As a company, we want to represent something different. And we want to make sure we’re focused on results.

The reason Rivian was created, and the reason we’re working hard, is to create products that shift mindsets and to create incredible experiences. Not to build something that in any way is trying to create polarization or trying to say “us versus them.” The scale of the challenge we have in terms of transitioning to sustainable energy is enormous, and this is not the time to be throwing stones.

Not only are you trying to get cars off the line, you’re dealing with a company that’s gone public during COVID with the supply chain crises and you don’t seem frazzled. What’s your secret?


This is so much easier than 2010 and 2011. We couldn’t make payroll. Like every other week, we were running out of cash. And we had 14, 15, 20 employees and we’re trying to start a car company. That’s hard. Today we have products people love, we have a clear line of sight to profitability. We’re ramping up, and the next product has been developed by this incredible team.

We started setting up our plant in February of 2020. You couldn’t have picked a worse time. Imagine installing a billion and a half dollars worth of equipment starting in February 2020. We had to be creative. And then immediately after getting all the equipment installed, we had this massive supply chain shortage, which basically meant we had a plant that we couldn’t run. And it’s very public—we are a public company, so we got punched in the face, so to speak, in front of everyone. But that was okay. Like, we got through it.

Wait, you’re saying that that was the chill part?

That was hard, but I knew it was gonna be hard. You don’t start a production plant in a car company thinking it’s going to be a walk on the beach. It’s going to be hard. If you want to join a company where you’re walking on a paved path, and there’s a cool breeze, and the sun’s in just the right spot, this isn’t that company. If you want to join a place where you’re going to be climbing up the side of a mountain, there’s no trail markers, and sometimes you grab a rock and the rock pulls out and you’re like, Oh, damn, what do I hold on to now? So it’s exciting, it’s invigorating, it’s going to stretch you. If you go in with that mindset, that’s a totally different outcome.

Thanks. They're still hemorrhaging money, though, right? Or has that changed? https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

They are public...check it out https://rivian.com/investors

Yes. I know that. They're not going to lead with the "we lose a huge amount of money on every vehicle" on their site though. It gets disclosed eventually for public companies if you know how to dig and look deeper. But it's obviously not something they'll lead with.

Because they are public, they absolutely have to give unfiltered financial results, so yes they lead with them. Just need to read the Q results and the 10Ks and you'll know an immense amount about their business.

We'll just disagree if you think they lead with the story of how much they're losing on every vehicle. No worries.

from the Motor Trend article https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

​

Rivian Loses a Huge Amount on Every Vehicle It Sells​

I asked a simple question about whether this was still the case.

Was not surprised to see the responses be "analyze the financials".

That's understandable for their part to deflect with the businessspeak.

We reached out to Rivian and asked how it plans to close the profit gap and if the complexities of its engineering is hurting their bottom line. A Rivian spokesperson provided the following statement: "As RJ [Scaringe] noted on CNBC, Q3 deliveries exceeded analyst expectations, demand is strong, and our ramp continues to make progress. Loss per vehicle has improved quarter over quarter, and the path to profitability remains our objective."

I'm sure they're a wonderful company. It was a small point I was interested in. No worries.

They're also facing a lawsuit over this: https://unicourt.com/case/ca-sca1-casebs74cb5eb37b38-209460

 

[Snotbubbles]

We rented a Tesla once. It was easy as can be to pull into a grocery store parking lot and charge while shopping. I think some people are just looking for an excuse

It's still much easier to plug in at night. Hotels don't all have this option. SCs now at 250kw fixes some of this issue and Tesla mostly had cars capable of those speeds.

I'm surprised Tesla hasn't designed a "solar" panel on the roof that will self charge the cars. They do something like that where you don't even need to stop and charge and they'll sell like hot cakes.

 

[Nugget]

Speaking of safety....

The Sounds of Rivian - Rivian Stories | Electric Vehicle Adventures

How nature inspired our audio ecosystem

stories.rivian.com

I didn't realize the Rivian made an external sound when approaching pedestrians and cyclists.

After month I have to say this is the most well thought out vehicle I've ever sat in.

What's the story behind people making Rivian? What seems to be the driving force and what is important to them? Who are they and what's their history?

From an interview with CEO

Our society tends to view people with obsessions as weird. Do you think everyone should have one?


I think indifference is a real challenge to society’s progress. I was deeply passionate about cars and transportation. Then as I got older, I realized these things I loved and grew up dreaming about—from a very young age, I would have windshields and engines in my room—were the source of so many of our macro challenges as society. Everything from the vast majority of wars, to the fact that every major city in the world has air quality issues largely as a result of cars, to climate change. It led me to say, “Well, can I be a helpful participant in driving some of the change we need to see?” Which of course led to me creating Rivian.

There are two ways to go about your business. One is to be boastful and puff yourself up. That works in business and politics. You have Elon and Trump. And then the other way is to be quiet. You’ve been the latter. Why pick that route?

You have to be authentic to who you are. My baseline is understated. I’m not by any means shy, but I’d rather put my head down and focus on execution. And I think one of the big challenges we have as a society is that there’s so much noise in the system. And there’s a lot of hype. There’s a lot of digital bullying of all sorts. As a company, we want to represent something different. And we want to make sure we’re focused on results.

The reason Rivian was created, and the reason we’re working hard, is to create products that shift mindsets and to create incredible experiences. Not to build something that in any way is trying to create polarization or trying to say “us versus them.” The scale of the challenge we have in terms of transitioning to sustainable energy is enormous, and this is not the time to be throwing stones.

Not only are you trying to get cars off the line, you’re dealing with a company that’s gone public during COVID with the supply chain crises and you don’t seem frazzled. What’s your secret?


This is so much easier than 2010 and 2011. We couldn’t make payroll. Like every other week, we were running out of cash. And we had 14, 15, 20 employees and we’re trying to start a car company. That’s hard. Today we have products people love, we have a clear line of sight to profitability. We’re ramping up, and the next product has been developed by this incredible team.

We started setting up our plant in February of 2020. You couldn’t have picked a worse time. Imagine installing a billion and a half dollars worth of equipment starting in February 2020. We had to be creative. And then immediately after getting all the equipment installed, we had this massive supply chain shortage, which basically meant we had a plant that we couldn’t run. And it’s very public—we are a public company, so we got punched in the face, so to speak, in front of everyone. But that was okay. Like, we got through it.

Wait, you’re saying that that was the chill part?

That was hard, but I knew it was gonna be hard. You don’t start a production plant in a car company thinking it’s going to be a walk on the beach. It’s going to be hard. If you want to join a company where you’re walking on a paved path, and there’s a cool breeze, and the sun’s in just the right spot, this isn’t that company. If you want to join a place where you’re going to be climbing up the side of a mountain, there’s no trail markers, and sometimes you grab a rock and the rock pulls out and you’re like, Oh, damn, what do I hold on to now? So it’s exciting, it’s invigorating, it’s going to stretch you. If you go in with that mindset, that’s a totally different outcome.

Thanks. They're still hemorrhaging money, though, right? Or has that changed? https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

They are public...check it out https://rivian.com/investors

Yes. I know that. They're not going to lead with the "we lose a huge amount of money on every vehicle" on their site though. It gets disclosed eventually for public companies if you know how to dig and look deeper. But it's obviously not something they'll lead with.

Because they are public, they absolutely have to give unfiltered financial results, so yes they lead with them. Just need to read the Q results and the 10Ks and you'll know an immense amount about their business.

We'll just disagree if you think they lead with the story of how much they're losing on every vehicle. No worries.

from the Motor Trend article https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

​

Rivian Loses a Huge Amount on Every Vehicle It Sells​

I asked a simple question about whether this was still the case.

Was not surprised to see the responses be "analyze the financials".

That's understandable for their part to deflect with the businessspeak.

We reached out to Rivian and asked how it plans to close the profit gap and if the complexities of its engineering is hurting their bottom line. A Rivian spokesperson provided the following statement: "As RJ [Scaringe] noted on CNBC, Q3 deliveries exceeded analyst expectations, demand is strong, and our ramp continues to make progress. Loss per vehicle has improved quarter over quarter, and the path to profitability remains our objective."

I'm sure they're a wonderful company. It was a small point I was interested in. No worries.

It's not about disagreeing, it's facts. Sorry, you don't want to be bothered to look at page 4 of their latest financial results where it's easy to see in the trailing nine months ending Sept 23 they have lost 1.4B in revenue with a total loss of 3.9B. Then you can see what they did the previous year and see that last year they lost 5B, so they are losing less money this year but still a significant loss.

However, they still have a ton of cash on hand at 7.9B but their cash reserves are falling, last year they had 13B.

There is no story, there is no color or spin from a magazine, there is no need to analyze anything, and the numbers are plain and easy to read. There is no deflecting in an SEC filing, not sure why you are so resistant to actually looking at it. There is no businesspeak, this isn't a private company.

Rivian should be fine. They need to quickly scale and come in with a lower priced entry to market. Their market cap dropped 80% from IPO levels and they likely will lose more money in 2024. With 30+ new entries to the EV space project for each of the next two years, plus a ramp up in cybertruck, and a slowing pace of EV adoption, the market will be a challenge. I expect to see more pressure for their van business, and the 100K of Amazon sales is already baked into their stock valuation. Good products, still lots of growing pains

 

[jvdesigns2002]

We rented a Tesla once. It was easy as can be to pull into a grocery store parking lot and charge while shopping. I think some people are just looking for an excuse

It's still much easier to plug in at night. Hotels don't all have this option. SCs now at 250kw fixes some of this issue and Tesla mostly had cars capable of those speeds.

I'm surprised Tesla hasn't designed a "solar" panel on the roof that will self charge the cars. They do something like that where you don't even need to stop and charge and they'll sell like hot cakes.

Elon has spoken about this several times on the Joe Rogan podcast. Effectively he said that the amount of power that can be generated by solar panels using the sun is all about surface area—and most civilian vehicles don’t have enough surface area to make it worthwhile. I’m certainly misquoting him—but he basically said something to the effect that the amount of power generated per hour by sunlight per inch or foot has a ceiling (basically even if the solar panel was efficient enough to collect 100% of the solar energy provided by the sun—the surface area of the panel required to power a vehicle would have to be gigantic). Maybe on huge vehicles like tractor trailers or busses—they could perhaps design some sort of solar panels that fold and unfold to create massive surface area—but it wouldn’t make sense for regular civilian vehicles.

 

[culdeus]

We rented a Tesla once. It was easy as can be to pull into a grocery store parking lot and charge while shopping. I think some people are just looking for an excuse

It's still much easier to plug in at night. Hotels don't all have this option. SCs now at 250kw fixes some of this issue and Tesla mostly had cars capable of those speeds.

I'm surprised Tesla hasn't designed a "solar" panel on the roof that will self charge the cars. They do something like that where you don't even need to stop and charge and they'll sell like hot cakes.

Current best case panels are really only capable of 2-4 kwh at a car scale. Thing is that's is probably enough for a lot of people, but it's been near impossible to convince some that 200 mile ranges are adequate.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

We rented a Tesla once. It was easy as can be to pull into a grocery store parking lot and charge while shopping. I think some people are just looking for an excuse

It's still much easier to plug in at night. Hotels don't all have this option. SCs now at 250kw fixes some of this issue and Tesla mostly had cars capable of those speeds.

I'm surprised Tesla hasn't designed a "solar" panel on the roof that will self charge the cars. They do something like that where you don't even need to stop and charge and they'll sell like hot cakes.

Current best case panels are really only capable of 2-4 kwh at a car scale. Thing is that's is probably enough for a lot of people, but it's been near impossible to convince some that 200 mile ranges are adequate.

Not even close to that right now. The maximum solar energy put out by the sun is something like 1kwh Per square meter. Current solar panels are maybe 25-30% efficient in capturing that energy—which means 0.25kwh per square meter (roughly 10 square feet). To get 4kwh out of a car—you’d need 160 square feet of solar panels that happen to be in a position to where they are absorbing the suns energy at optimal levels.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[Snotbubbles]

We rented a Tesla once. It was easy as can be to pull into a grocery store parking lot and charge while shopping. I think some people are just looking for an excuse

It's still much easier to plug in at night. Hotels don't all have this option. SCs now at 250kw fixes some of this issue and Tesla mostly had cars capable of those speeds.

I'm surprised Tesla hasn't designed a "solar" panel on the roof that will self charge the cars. They do something like that where you don't even need to stop and charge and they'll sell like hot cakes.

Current best case panels are really only capable of 2-4 kwh at a car scale. Thing is that's is probably enough for a lot of people, but it's been near impossible to convince some that 200 mile ranges are adequate.

Not even close to that right now. The maximum solar energy put out by the sun is something like 1kwh Per square meter. Current solar panels are maybe 25-30% efficient in capturing that energy—which means 0.25kwh per square meter (roughly 10 square feet). To get 4kwh out of a car—you’d need 160 square feet of solar panels that happen to be in a position to where they are absorbing the suns energy at optimal levels.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

So they just need to make solar panels more efficient.

They should evolve like computers.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

We rented a Tesla once. It was easy as can be to pull into a grocery store parking lot and charge while shopping. I think some people are just looking for an excuse

It's still much easier to plug in at night. Hotels don't all have this option. SCs now at 250kw fixes some of this issue and Tesla mostly had cars capable of those speeds.

I'm surprised Tesla hasn't designed a "solar" panel on the roof that will self charge the cars. They do something like that where you don't even need to stop and charge and they'll sell like hot cakes.

Current best case panels are really only capable of 2-4 kwh at a car scale. Thing is that's is probably enough for a lot of people, but it's been near impossible to convince some that 200 mile ranges are adequate.

Not even close to that right now. The maximum solar energy put out by the sun is something like 1kwh Per square meter. Current solar panels are maybe 25-30% efficient in capturing that energy—which means 0.25kwh per square meter (roughly 10 square feet). To get 4kwh out of a car—you’d need 160 square feet of solar panels that happen to be in a position to where they are absorbing the suns energy at optimal levels.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

So they just need to make solar panels more efficient.

They should evolve like computers.

Did you watch the clip? I’m no expert—but even if they made them super efficient—the maximum amount of energy put out by the sun even if you capture 100% is 1kwh per square meter. Most cars don’t have the surface area to make even capturing all of that a reality in order to run completely independently. The maximum output is when the sun is at a 90 degree angle to the solar panels. This would generally mean only a fraction of a vehicles solar panels would be absorbing energy optimally even if they were perfectly designed. Again—I’m no expert—but the dude that has done more research and has contributed the most in the world in regards to electric vehicles is the person explaining this.

 

[TripItUp]

I think it's bizarre that so many people want combustion engines to "win."

I guess people are afraid of change/advancement?

 

[jvdesigns2002]

I think it's bizarre that so many people want combustion engines to "win."

I guess people are afraid of change/advancement?

Where are you getting that vibe? I dont see a single post about being afraid of enhancement. I just see dialogue between what people think is currently possible vs what is actually currently possible

 

[Snotbubbles]

We rented a Tesla once. It was easy as can be to pull into a grocery store parking lot and charge while shopping. I think some people are just looking for an excuse

It's still much easier to plug in at night. Hotels don't all have this option. SCs now at 250kw fixes some of this issue and Tesla mostly had cars capable of those speeds.

I'm surprised Tesla hasn't designed a "solar" panel on the roof that will self charge the cars. They do something like that where you don't even need to stop and charge and they'll sell like hot cakes.

Current best case panels are really only capable of 2-4 kwh at a car scale. Thing is that's is probably enough for a lot of people, but it's been near impossible to convince some that 200 mile ranges are adequate.

Not even close to that right now. The maximum solar energy put out by the sun is something like 1kwh Per square meter. Current solar panels are maybe 25-30% efficient in capturing that energy—which means 0.25kwh per square meter (roughly 10 square feet). To get 4kwh out of a car—you’d need 160 square feet of solar panels that happen to be in a position to where they are absorbing the suns energy at optimal levels.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

So they just need to make solar panels more efficient.

They should evolve like computers.

Did you watch the clip? I’m no expert—but even if they made them super efficient—the maximum amount of energy put out by the sun even if you capture 100% is 1kwh per square meter. Most cars don’t have the surface area to make even capturing all of that a reality in order to run completely independently. The maximum output is when the sun is at a 90 degree angle to the solar panels. This would generally mean only a fraction of a vehicles solar panels would be absorbing energy optimally even if they were perfectly designed. Again—I’m no expert—but the dude that has done more research and has contributed the most in the world in regards to electric vehicles is the person explaining this.

When computers were first made, they took up an entire room. 20 years later, as the technology got better, they took up a desk. Now they can fit in your pocket.

Same principle. Today it takes X amount of area space for a solar panel to produce Y energy. 10 years from now, the X will be smaller and the Y will be larger until eventually, a solar panel the size of say a dinner plate will be all that is required to power an automobile.

 

[TripItUp]

I think it's bizarre that so many people want combustion engines to "win."

I guess people are afraid of change/advancement?

Where are you getting that vibe? I dont see a single post about being afraid of enhancement. I just see dialogue between what people think is currently possible vs what is actually currently possible

I actually got that vibe from another thread in here that Joe started....I'll post a link.

 

[Joe Bryant]

We rented a Tesla once. It was easy as can be to pull into a grocery store parking lot and charge while shopping. I think some people are just looking for an excuse

It's still much easier to plug in at night. Hotels don't all have this option. SCs now at 250kw fixes some of this issue and Tesla mostly had cars capable of those speeds.

I'm surprised Tesla hasn't designed a "solar" panel on the roof that will self charge the cars. They do something like that where you don't even need to stop and charge and they'll sell like hot cakes.

Musk talked about that a good bit on his Rogan interview. He said it's simply right now the technology is such that the panel would simply have to be too big to be practical.

But I thought the same thing. Especially in certain parts of the country.

Edit - sorry - saw that @jvdesigns2002 addressed it above.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I think it's bizarre that so many people want combustion engines to "win."

I guess people are afraid of change/advancement?

Where are you getting that vibe? I dont see a single post about being afraid of enhancement. I just see dialogue between what people think is currently possible vs what is actually currently possible

Same. I find the "sides" fascinating.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Speaking of safety....

The Sounds of Rivian - Rivian Stories | Electric Vehicle Adventures

How nature inspired our audio ecosystem

stories.rivian.com

I didn't realize the Rivian made an external sound when approaching pedestrians and cyclists.

After month I have to say this is the most well thought out vehicle I've ever sat in.

What's the story behind people making Rivian? What seems to be the driving force and what is important to them? Who are they and what's their history?

From an interview with CEO

Our society tends to view people with obsessions as weird. Do you think everyone should have one?


I think indifference is a real challenge to society’s progress. I was deeply passionate about cars and transportation. Then as I got older, I realized these things I loved and grew up dreaming about—from a very young age, I would have windshields and engines in my room—were the source of so many of our macro challenges as society. Everything from the vast majority of wars, to the fact that every major city in the world has air quality issues largely as a result of cars, to climate change. It led me to say, “Well, can I be a helpful participant in driving some of the change we need to see?” Which of course led to me creating Rivian.

There are two ways to go about your business. One is to be boastful and puff yourself up. That works in business and politics. You have Elon and Trump. And then the other way is to be quiet. You’ve been the latter. Why pick that route?

You have to be authentic to who you are. My baseline is understated. I’m not by any means shy, but I’d rather put my head down and focus on execution. And I think one of the big challenges we have as a society is that there’s so much noise in the system. And there’s a lot of hype. There’s a lot of digital bullying of all sorts. As a company, we want to represent something different. And we want to make sure we’re focused on results.

The reason Rivian was created, and the reason we’re working hard, is to create products that shift mindsets and to create incredible experiences. Not to build something that in any way is trying to create polarization or trying to say “us versus them.” The scale of the challenge we have in terms of transitioning to sustainable energy is enormous, and this is not the time to be throwing stones.

Not only are you trying to get cars off the line, you’re dealing with a company that’s gone public during COVID with the supply chain crises and you don’t seem frazzled. What’s your secret?


This is so much easier than 2010 and 2011. We couldn’t make payroll. Like every other week, we were running out of cash. And we had 14, 15, 20 employees and we’re trying to start a car company. That’s hard. Today we have products people love, we have a clear line of sight to profitability. We’re ramping up, and the next product has been developed by this incredible team.

We started setting up our plant in February of 2020. You couldn’t have picked a worse time. Imagine installing a billion and a half dollars worth of equipment starting in February 2020. We had to be creative. And then immediately after getting all the equipment installed, we had this massive supply chain shortage, which basically meant we had a plant that we couldn’t run. And it’s very public—we are a public company, so we got punched in the face, so to speak, in front of everyone. But that was okay. Like, we got through it.

Wait, you’re saying that that was the chill part?

That was hard, but I knew it was gonna be hard. You don’t start a production plant in a car company thinking it’s going to be a walk on the beach. It’s going to be hard. If you want to join a company where you’re walking on a paved path, and there’s a cool breeze, and the sun’s in just the right spot, this isn’t that company. If you want to join a place where you’re going to be climbing up the side of a mountain, there’s no trail markers, and sometimes you grab a rock and the rock pulls out and you’re like, Oh, damn, what do I hold on to now? So it’s exciting, it’s invigorating, it’s going to stretch you. If you go in with that mindset, that’s a totally different outcome.

Thanks. They're still hemorrhaging money, though, right? Or has that changed? https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

They are public...check it out https://rivian.com/investors

Yes. I know that. They're not going to lead with the "we lose a huge amount of money on every vehicle" on their site though. It gets disclosed eventually for public companies if you know how to dig and look deeper. But it's obviously not something they'll lead with.

Because they are public, they absolutely have to give unfiltered financial results, so yes they lead with them. Just need to read the Q results and the 10Ks and you'll know an immense amount about their business.

We'll just disagree if you think they lead with the story of how much they're losing on every vehicle. No worries.

from the Motor Trend article https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivian-loss-per-vehicle/

​

Rivian Loses a Huge Amount on Every Vehicle It Sells​

I asked a simple question about whether this was still the case.

Was not surprised to see the responses be "analyze the financials".

That's understandable for their part to deflect with the businessspeak.

We reached out to Rivian and asked how it plans to close the profit gap and if the complexities of its engineering is hurting their bottom line. A Rivian spokesperson provided the following statement: "As RJ [Scaringe] noted on CNBC, Q3 deliveries exceeded analyst expectations, demand is strong, and our ramp continues to make progress. Loss per vehicle has improved quarter over quarter, and the path to profitability remains our objective."

I'm sure they're a wonderful company. It was a small point I was interested in. No worries.

It's not about disagreeing, it's facts. Sorry, you don't want to be bothered to look at page 4 of their latest financial results where it's easy to see in the trailing nine months ending Sept 23 they have lost 1.4B in revenue with a total loss of 3.9B. Then you can see what they did the previous year and see that last year they lost 5B, so they are losing less money this year but still a significant loss.

However, they still have a ton of cash on hand at 7.9B but their cash reserves are falling, last year they had 13B.

There is no story, there is no color or spin from a magazine, there is no need to analyze anything, and the numbers are plain and easy to read. There is no deflecting in an SEC filing, not sure why you are so resistant to actually looking at it. There is no businesspeak, this isn't a private company.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I think it's bizarre that so many people want combustion engines to "win."

I guess people are afraid of change/advancement?

Where are you getting that vibe? I dont see a single post about being afraid of enhancement. I just see dialogue between what people think is currently possible vs what is actually currently possible

Do you own a Tesla? There are def people who hate them. Usually in large trucks with a specific type of sticker/flag affixed.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

We rented a Tesla once. It was easy as can be to pull into a grocery store parking lot and charge while shopping. I think some people are just looking for an excuse

It's still much easier to plug in at night. Hotels don't all have this option. SCs now at 250kw fixes some of this issue and Tesla mostly had cars capable of those speeds.

I'm surprised Tesla hasn't designed a "solar" panel on the roof that will self charge the cars. They do something like that where you don't even need to stop and charge and they'll sell like hot cakes.

Elon has spoken about this several times on the Joe Rogan podcast. Effectively he said that the amount of power that can be generated by solar panels using the sun is all about surface area—and most civilian vehicles don’t have enough surface area to make it worthwhile. I’m certainly misquoting him—but he basically said something to the effect that the amount of power generated per hour by sunlight per inch or foot has a ceiling (basically even if the solar panel was efficient enough to collect 100% of the solar energy provided by the sun—the surface area of the panel required to power a vehicle would have to be gigantic). Maybe on huge vehicles like tractor trailers or busses—they could perhaps design some sort of solar panels that fold and unfold to create massive surface area—but it wouldn’t make sense for regular civilian vehicles.

Yeah there are quite a few challenges with that. Surface area is a big one. Solar panels are also highly dependent on their angle to the sun and of course in a moving vehicle that can't be controlled. I believe they also lose some efficiency when moving. And lastly, the weight costs for adding the panels mostly negate any power generated by the too small panels operating at an inefficient angle to the sun.

I believe they were saying it might add something like 10-15 miles to the range, which isn't worth the extra cost/complexity.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I think it's bizarre that so many people want combustion engines to "win."

I guess people are afraid of change/advancement?

Where are you getting that vibe? I dont see a single post about being afraid of enhancement. I just see dialogue between what people think is currently possible vs what is actually currently possible

I don't think he meant here in this thread. If you see EVs mentioned on twitter or facebook or anything like that there are immediately thousands of comments of people just ####ing on the idea that have clearly just picked a "team" for some reason and live to harp on it.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I think it's bizarre that so many people want combustion engines to "win."

I guess people are afraid of change/advancement?

Some people just think everything should stay the same forever and live to fight progress. I am techie guy that is an early adopter to most things and almost every time those things start with the majority of people saying it's stupid and things should just stay the way they are. We saw it with streaming, we see it now with non-digital banking and EVs. It's in everything.

These are the same people that if they had been alive back then would have been sounding off on how stupid and needless the ideas of indoor plumbing, or air conditioning, or light bulbs are when the world has been getting along fine without them for thousands of years. Just crotchety people being crotchety.

In video form

 

[BlackCrowes]

We rented a Tesla once. It was easy as can be to pull into a grocery store parking lot and charge while shopping. I think some people are just looking for an excuse

It's still much easier to plug in at night. Hotels don't all have this option. SCs now at 250kw fixes some of this issue and Tesla mostly had cars capable of those speeds.

I'm surprised Tesla hasn't designed a "solar" panel on the roof that will self charge the cars. They do something like that where you don't even need to stop and charge and they'll sell like hot cakes.

Current best case panels are really only capable of 2-4 kwh at a car scale. Thing is that's is probably enough for a lot of people, but it's been near impossible to convince some that 200 mile ranges are adequate.

Not even close to that right now. The maximum solar energy put out by the sun is something like 1kwh Per square meter. Current solar panels are maybe 25-30% efficient in capturing that energy—which means 0.25kwh per square meter (roughly 10 square feet). To get 4kwh out of a car—you’d need 160 square feet of solar panels that happen to be in a position to where they are absorbing the suns energy at optimal levels.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

So they just need to make solar panels more efficient.

They should evolve like computers.

Did you watch the clip? I’m no expert—but even if they made them super efficient—the maximum amount of energy put out by the sun even if you capture 100% is 1kwh per square meter. Most cars don’t have the surface area to make even capturing all of that a reality in order to run completely independently. The maximum output is when the sun is at a 90 degree angle to the solar panels. This would generally mean only a fraction of a vehicles solar panels would be absorbing energy optimally even if they were perfectly designed. Again—I’m no expert—but the dude that has done more research and has contributed the most in the world in regards to electric vehicles is the person explaining this.

When computers were first made, they took up an entire room. 20 years later, as the technology got better, they took up a desk. Now they can fit in your pocket.

Same principle. Today it takes X amount of area space for a solar panel to produce Y energy. 10 years from now, the X will be smaller and the Y will be larger until eventually, a solar panel the size of say a dinner plate will be all that is required to power an automobile.

You planning on turning up the sun?

 

[BlackCrowes]

Solar panels on a car are mainly for looks. I guess if you park in the sun a lot it’s worth it, enough to run the system that cools the battery so you don’t lose range, but that’s about it. Fisker Ocean Extreme has one. Love that car but not sure the company will survive.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

I think it's bizarre that so many people want combustion engines to "win."

I guess people are afraid of change/advancement?

Where are you getting that vibe? I dont see a single post about being afraid of enhancement. I just see dialogue between what people think is currently possible vs what is actually currently possible

Do you own a Tesla? There are def people who hate them. Usually in large trucks with a specific type of sticker/flag affixed.

I do not—but I know several people that do, and have driven and ridden in them several times. They are great vehicles and I certainly have no issue with them or people that really love them. For me personally, I think that advancements need and should be made for both ICE and electric vehicles. I’m from California—and while I am for people getting and supporting electric vehicles—I am not of the camp that ICE vehicles should be shunned or phased out completely. A TON of money and technology has gone into electric vehicles the past 10 years. I also think that there will be a lot of unintended consequences if we go too far electric. The vehicles weigh a lot more on average and will wear down our infrastructure (roads, bridges, highways, parking structures, electrical grids..etc) at an accelerated rate. Electric cars also wear through tires a lot more quickly than ICE counterparts—and rubber runoff from tires is one of the biggest pollutants of ocean waters. Effectively, there is a good chance that the benefit of the reduction in air pollution from electric vehicles can be countered by an increase of water pollution. For myself personally—I would like to see as much money and effort put into both types of vehicles to maximize the efficiency of both. I would bet that if 25-35% of the money that went into developing and improving electric vehicles over the past 5-10 years went into improving the efficiency of ICE vehicles—we would see a very noticeable improvement in those as well. I certainly understand that some people just like the feel of electric or ICE vehicles better—but I don’t really understand why anybody would be rooting for improvements or advancements in either to fail. Just seems like improvements in either or both would be good for society as a whole.

 

[gianmarco]

I think it's bizarre that so many people want combustion engines to "win."

I guess people are afraid of change/advancement?

Where are you getting that vibe? I dont see a single post about being afraid of enhancement. I just see dialogue between what people think is currently possible vs what is actually currently possible

Do you own a Tesla? There are def people who hate them. Usually in large trucks with a specific type of sticker/flag affixed.

I do not—but I know several people that do, and have driven and ridden in them several times. They are great vehicles and I certainly have no issue with them or people that really love them. For me personally, I think that advancements need and should be made for both ICE and electric vehicles. I’m from California—and while I am for people getting and supporting electric vehicles—I am not of the camp that ICE vehicles should be shunned or phased out completely. A TON of money and technology has gone into electric vehicles the past 10 years. I also think that there will be a lot of unintended consequences if we go too far electric. The vehicles weigh a lot more on average and will wear down our infrastructure (roads, bridges, highways, parking structures, electrical grids..etc) at an accelerated rate. Electric cars also wear through tires a lot more quickly than ICE counterparts—and rubber runoff from tires is one of the biggest pollutants of ocean waters. Effectively, there is a good chance that the benefit of the reduction in air pollution from electric vehicles can be countered by an increase of water pollution. For myself personally—I would like to see as much money and effort put into both types of vehicles to maximize the efficiency of both. I would bet that if 25-35% of the money that went into developing and improving electric vehicles over the past 5-10 years went into improving the efficiency of ICE vehicles—we would see a very noticeable improvement in those as well. I certainly understand that some people just like the feel of electric or ICE vehicles better—but I don’t really understand why anybody would be rooting for improvements or advancements in either to fail. Just seems like improvements in either or both would be good for society as a whole.

I'm sure there's a reason, but I'm not sure why hybrid technology isn't the way to go and not more sought after. It's the best of both worlds.

You have a smaller battery with a limited range of 30-40 miles. And you have an ICE engine that kicks in after the battery is out. For most people the vast majority of the time, you can run fully electric. Charge at home, rarely have to worry about any gas. But, have a long trip? You can fill up and have normal range and not have range anxiety.

PHEV

 

[FBG26]

We rented a Tesla once. It was easy as can be to pull into a grocery store parking lot and charge while shopping. I think some people are just looking for an excuse

It's still much easier to plug in at night. Hotels don't all have this option. SCs now at 250kw fixes some of this issue and Tesla mostly had cars capable of those speeds.

I'm surprised Tesla hasn't designed a "solar" panel on the roof that will self charge the cars. They do something like that where you don't even need to stop and charge and they'll sell like hot cakes.

Current best case panels are really only capable of 2-4 kwh at a car scale. Thing is that's is probably enough for a lot of people, but it's been near impossible to convince some that 200 mile ranges are adequate.

Not even close to that right now. The maximum solar energy put out by the sun is something like 1kwh Per square meter. Current solar panels are maybe 25-30% efficient in capturing that energy—which means 0.25kwh per square meter (roughly 10 square feet). To get 4kwh out of a car—you’d need 160 square feet of solar panels that happen to be in a position to where they are absorbing the suns energy at optimal levels.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

So they just need to make solar panels more efficient.

They should evolve like computers.

The theoretical maximum efficiency of sugar panels is 33%. Even if you could do that, it's not going to help for putting solar panels on cars.

Trying link again

 

[jvdesigns2002]

We rented a Tesla once. It was easy as can be to pull into a grocery store parking lot and charge while shopping. I think some people are just looking for an excuse

It's still much easier to plug in at night. Hotels don't all have this option. SCs now at 250kw fixes some of this issue and Tesla mostly had cars capable of those speeds.

I'm surprised Tesla hasn't designed a "solar" panel on the roof that will self charge the cars. They do something like that where you don't even need to stop and charge and they'll sell like hot cakes.

Current best case panels are really only capable of 2-4 kwh at a car scale. Thing is that's is probably enough for a lot of people, but it's been near impossible to convince some that 200 mile ranges are adequate.

Not even close to that right now. The maximum solar energy put out by the sun is something like 1kwh Per square meter. Current solar panels are maybe 25-30% efficient in capturing that energy—which means 0.25kwh per square meter (roughly 10 square feet). To get 4kwh out of a car—you’d need 160 square feet of solar panels that happen to be in a position to where they are absorbing the suns energy at optimal levels.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

So they just need to make solar panels more efficient.

They should evolve like computers.

Did you watch the clip? I’m no expert—but even if they made them super efficient—the maximum amount of energy put out by the sun even if you capture 100% is 1kwh per square meter. Most cars don’t have the surface area to make even capturing all of that a reality in order to run completely independently. The maximum output is when the sun is at a 90 degree angle to the solar panels. This would generally mean only a fraction of a vehicles solar panels would be absorbing energy optimally even if they were perfectly designed. Again—I’m no expert—but the dude that has done more research and has contributed the most in the world in regards to electric vehicles is the person explaining this.

When computers were first made, they took up an entire room. 20 years later, as the technology got better, they took up a desk. Now they can fit in your pocket.

Same principle. Today it takes X amount of area space for a solar panel to produce Y energy. 10 years from now, the X will be smaller and the Y will be larger until eventually, a solar panel the size of say a dinner plate will be all that is required to power an automobile.

You planning on turning up the sun?

This is what some people don’t seem to be understanding and is what Elon explained in the link that I posted. We have no control over the amount of energy the sun emits. Elon explained that the amount of energy the sun emits is roughly 1 kwh per square meter. Currently, the best solar panels can capture 25-30% of that energy. His point is that even if you improved the efficiency of the solar panels—you would still have a massive surface area problem for regular size vehicles to capture enough energy to independently power themselves. Computers didn’t have a built in ceiling for success that solar panels have. There is a cap to how much energy per unit of area that a solar panel can gather. More efficient solar panels would be great for homes, businesses, perhaps very large vehicles with massive surface area—-but the effects they would have in regular vehicles wouldn’t be nearly as impactful.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I think it's bizarre that so many people want combustion engines to "win."

I guess people are afraid of change/advancement?

Where are you getting that vibe? I dont see a single post about being afraid of enhancement. I just see dialogue between what people think is currently possible vs what is actually currently possible

Do you own a Tesla? There are def people who hate them. Usually in large trucks with a specific type of sticker/flag affixed.

I do not—but I know several people that do, and have driven and ridden in them several times. They are great vehicles and I certainly have no issue with them or people that really love them. For me personally, I think that advancements need and should be made for both ICE and electric vehicles. I’m from California—and while I am for people getting and supporting electric vehicles—I am not of the camp that ICE vehicles should be shunned or phased out completely. A TON of money and technology has gone into electric vehicles the past 10 years. I also think that there will be a lot of unintended consequences if we go too far electric. The vehicles weigh a lot more on average and will wear down our infrastructure (roads, bridges, highways, parking structures, electrical grids..etc) at an accelerated rate. Electric cars also wear through tires a lot more quickly than ICE counterparts—and rubber runoff from tires is one of the biggest pollutants of ocean waters. Effectively, there is a good chance that the benefit of the reduction in air pollution from electric vehicles can be countered by an increase of water pollution. For myself personally—I would like to see as much money and effort put into both types of vehicles to maximize the efficiency of both. I would bet that if 25-35% of the money that went into developing and improving electric vehicles over the past 5-10 years went into improving the efficiency of ICE vehicles—we would see a very noticeable improvement in those as well. I certainly understand that some people just like the feel of electric or ICE vehicles better—but I don’t really understand why anybody would be rooting for improvements or advancements in either to fail. Just seems like improvements in either or both would be good for society as a whole.

I have no idea if this is correct or not, but I would assume there is some pretty serious diminishing returns in trying to increase the efficiency of ICEs since we've already milked most of that efficiency and are nearing the limit of how efficient they can be. They've been mainstream for over a century now and money/time has been poured into bettering their efficiency all along the way. There's only so much more that can be done.

Compared to EVs which I think we can all agree are probably nowhere NEAR their maximum efficiency right now. Something like solid state batteries if they could figure those out would double the range and halve the weight overnight.

There is just naturally a much larger return on a time/money investment early in a product's life cycle than in one that's already been refined by an entire massive industry for the majority of it's lifecycle.

 

[Terminalxylem]

We rented a Tesla once. It was easy as can be to pull into a grocery store parking lot and charge while shopping. I think some people are just looking for an excuse

It's still much easier to plug in at night. Hotels don't all have this option. SCs now at 250kw fixes some of this issue and Tesla mostly had cars capable of those speeds.

I'm surprised Tesla hasn't designed a "solar" panel on the roof that will self charge the cars. They do something like that where you don't even need to stop and charge and they'll sell like hot cakes.

Current best case panels are really only capable of 2-4 kwh at a car scale. Thing is that's is probably enough for a lot of people, but it's been near impossible to convince some that 200 mile ranges are adequate.

Not even close to that right now. The maximum solar energy put out by the sun is something like 1kwh Per square meter. Current solar panels are maybe 25-30% efficient in capturing that energy—which means 0.25kwh per square meter (roughly 10 square feet). To get 4kwh out of a car—you’d need 160 square feet of solar panels that happen to be in a position to where they are absorbing the suns energy at optimal levels.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

So they just need to make solar panels more efficient.

They should evolve like computers.

Did you watch the clip? I’m no expert—but even if they made them super efficient—the maximum amount of energy put out by the sun even if you capture 100% is 1kwh per square meter. Most cars don’t have the surface area to make even capturing all of that a reality in order to run completely independently. The maximum output is when the sun is at a 90 degree angle to the solar panels. This would generally mean only a fraction of a vehicles solar panels would be absorbing energy optimally even if they were perfectly designed. Again—I’m no expert—but the dude that has done more research and has contributed the most in the world in regards to electric vehicles is the person explaining this.

What do you think about Aptera?

 

[beer 30]

Thing is that's is probably enough for a lot of people, but it's been near impossible to convince some that 200 mile ranges are adequate.

My company used that logic when committing to a large purchase of Ford Lightnings. Made sense for urban areas but even then, there were so many variables that contributed to range degradation that it didn't make sense and we bailed on about half the units we committed to. That's a truck which bring variables into the equation that aren't particularly applicable to a vehicle. My wife and I would be perfect candidates for electric, I drive about 20 miles a day, she might drive 40 miles a week. We take occasional trips throughout the year that require a 10+ hour drive but for everyday about town, electric would be ideal for us.

I'm sure there's a reason, but I'm not sure why hybrid technology isn't the way to go and not more sought after. It's the best of both worlds.

You have a smaller battery with a limited range of 30-40 miles. And you have an ICE engine that kicks in after the battery is out. For most people the vast majority of the time, you can run fully electric. Charge at home, rarely have to worry about any gas. But, have a long trip? You can fill up and have normal range and not have range anxiety.

I've brought this up before, why skip over hybrid and jump straight to all electric? Response was typically the hybrid is more expensive, more complicated, more whatever. I'm still not convinced this isn't the answer.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

We rented a Tesla once. It was easy as can be to pull into a grocery store parking lot and charge while shopping. I think some people are just looking for an excuse

It's still much easier to plug in at night. Hotels don't all have this option. SCs now at 250kw fixes some of this issue and Tesla mostly had cars capable of those speeds.

I'm surprised Tesla hasn't designed a "solar" panel on the roof that will self charge the cars. They do something like that where you don't even need to stop and charge and they'll sell like hot cakes.

Current best case panels are really only capable of 2-4 kwh at a car scale. Thing is that's is probably enough for a lot of people, but it's been near impossible to convince some that 200 mile ranges are adequate.

Not even close to that right now. The maximum solar energy put out by the sun is something like 1kwh Per square meter. Current solar panels are maybe 25-30% efficient in capturing that energy—which means 0.25kwh per square meter (roughly 10 square feet). To get 4kwh out of a car—you’d need 160 square feet of solar panels that happen to be in a position to where they are absorbing the suns energy at optimal levels.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

So they just need to make solar panels more efficient.

They should evolve like computers.

Did you watch the clip? I’m no expert—but even if they made them super efficient—the maximum amount of energy put out by the sun even if you capture 100% is 1kwh per square meter. Most cars don’t have the surface area to make even capturing all of that a reality in order to run completely independently. The maximum output is when the sun is at a 90 degree angle to the solar panels. This would generally mean only a fraction of a vehicles solar panels would be absorbing energy optimally even if they were perfectly designed. Again—I’m no expert—but the dude that has done more research and has contributed the most in the world in regards to electric vehicles is the person explaining this.

What do you think about Aptera?

I don’t know much about them—but it seems more motorcycle than car. It’s a 3 wheeled, tiny 2 seater car, that would not be feasible for families. It also is not purely solar. You can plug it in—and in 24 hours—it gets about 150 miles of charge when plugged in. When exposed to the sun—(maybe 8 hours a day)—it nets about 5 miles of range per hour exposed to the sun. I would bet that the vast majority of people that get the Apterra would be using the plug in charge feature—so I‘m not sure I would call that a ”pure” solar powered car. At the end of the day—it has a plug in feature where the plug in generates far more range, far more quickly than its solar capability can.