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Electronic Cigarettes (2 Viewers)

How have you concluded vaping is awesome harm reduction? Sure it helps some people quit, and others cut down tobacco consumption. But that must be balanced by the harm it causes by encouraging teens and others to pick up the habit, plus the potential for long term toxicity. My major concern is we don’t know much about the latter, despite many smokers embracing it as the best thing since sliced bread. Moreover, less harmful alternatives for smoking cessation exist - even if you assume vaping is twice as good at promoting quitting (a controversial stance, despite the NEJM study), are the extra 9% who quit worth the collateral damage?
Because the legit studies that didn't have money from interested parties (Big tobacco, pharma) have pegged vaping at 95%-99.9% safer than smoking.
Even at the low end, 20 kids would have to start vaping to = 1 kid smoking. As more than 5% of teens smoke, it's a logical conclusion to make that vaping is having a positive impact.

More people have killed themselves because of Chantix than have gotten sick from counterfeit, black market THC cartridges. Your safe alternatives are anything but and are less effective.

 
Because the legit studies that didn't have money from interested parties (Big tobacco, pharma) have pegged vaping at 95%-99.9% safer than smoking.
Even at the low end, 20 kids would have to start vaping to = 1 kid smoking. As more than 5% of teens smoke, it's a logical conclusion to make that vaping is having a positive impact.

More people have killed themselves because of Chantix than have gotten sick from counterfeit, black market THC cartridges. Your safe alternatives are anything but and are less effective.
I don’t think any study has estimated vaping is 99.9% safer than smoking, but I’d love to see that data. I have seen the 95% number from the UK, but some experts in this country estimate it is far more dangerous:

E-cigs don't burn, so people aren't as exposed to those toxins. A 2015 expert review from Public Health England estimated e-cigs are 95% less harmful than the real thing.

That figure is controversial and might be a little high, says Kenneth Warner, a tobacco policy researcher at the University of Michigan. But, he adds, "The worst critics of e-cigarettes would probably argue they're a half to two-thirds less dangerous. But from a practical view, they're probably on the order of 80% to 85% less dangerous, at least."
But that’s not especially relevant anyway. You should be comparing vaping to alternative smoking cessation methods. Conveniently, you picked the most problematic drug, Chantix, which had been associated with hundreds of suicides and suicidal ideation. However, that association didn’t hold up to more rigorous scrutiny:

RESULTS: 

Two pooled analyses of 10 and 17 placebo-controlled trials failed to find more suicidal outcomes in the varenicline condition. Seven large uncontrolled observational studies reported low rates of suicide outcomes in varenicline users (<0.1%), and 1 study reported a higher rate (6%). Five large controlled observational studies did not find more suicide outcomes in varenicline users than in those using prescribed bupropion or over-the-counter nicotine medications. Small placebo-controlled trials and observational studies of smokers with current psychiatric problems did not find varenicline was associated with suicidal outcomes.

CONCLUSIONS:

Among the more valid study designs (pooled analyses of placebo controlled trials or large controlled observational studies), there is consistent evidence that varenicline either does not cause increased suicide outcomes, or if it does, the effect is very small. Warnings to consumers and clinicians should reflect, not just the results of postmarketing studies, but the results of the more valid research designs.
FTR, Chantix quit rates at 1 year are almost identical to vaping, assuming you’re holding the NEJM study as the definitive reference. Or if you’re still scared of Chantix, maybe you should compare vaping safety and efficacy to multimodal smoking cessation methods, using behavioral modification and pharmacologic intervention? None carry the risk of introducing teens to bad habits and usually don’t continue indefinitely like e-cigs. And I wouldn’t count on teen e-cig use to remain static; it’s more likely to uptrend, with commensurate risk for delving into tobacco products in addition to the harm from vaping itself.

More importantly, the cluster of vaping illness and deaths has occurred over several months, which has prompted calls for greater regulation/research involving the industry. Who’s to say this problem won’t continue over the next several years if the culprit(s) aren’t correctly identified? Like the CDC, Im not advocating banning anything, just gathering additional safety data before we declare vaping god’s gift to smoking cessation.

 
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FTR, Chantix quit rates at 1 year are almost identical to vaping, assuming you’re holding the NEJM vaping study as the definitive reference.
Yeah, Chantix sure got Anthony Bourdain to stop smoking, huh?

More importantly, the cluster of vaping illness has occurred over several months, which has prompted calls for greater regulation/research involving the industry. Who’s to say this problem won’t continue over the next several years if the problem(s) aren’t correctly identified? Like the CDC, Im not advocating banning anything, just gathering additional safety data before we declare vaping god’s gift to smoking cessation.
New York’s Department of Health Commissioner Howard Zucker said 73 out of the 74 illnesses in New York are from marijuana vapes and only one is purportedly linked only to nicotine. However, Zucker acquiesced they might not have the full story from the patient and are still investigating that particular case.
Apples and oranges when it comes to smokers that have quit and teens buying black market thc cartridges.

 
Yeah, Chantix sure got Anthony Bourdain to stop smoking, huh?

Apples and oranges when it comes to smokers that have quit and teens buying black market thc cartridges.
Chantix caused Bourdain’s death (psst, it’s only ~20% effective, just like vaping)? I thought he hung himself? I guess the 27 placebo control trials got it wrong? 

My point wasn’t to comparing teen vaping and the recent illnesses/deaths. But both have to be considered when weighing the risk:benefits of e-cigs.

 
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How have you concluded vaping is awesome harm reduction? Sure it helps some people quit, and others cut down tobacco consumption. But that must be balanced by the harm it causes by encouraging teens and others to pick up the habit, plus the potential for long term toxicity. My major concern is we don’t know much about the latter, despite many smokers embracing it as the best thing since sliced bread. Moreover, less harmful alternatives for smoking cessation exist - even if you assume vaping is twice as good at promoting quitting (a controversial stance, despite the NEJM study), are the extra 9% who quit worth the collateral damage?
Some people have been vaping for 20 years. At what point does "we don't know much about long term toxicity" become "we don't know of any long term health impacts"? Because, right now is actually the truth, no long term negative health impacts have been scientifically found as of yet. I think we all assume there will be some, but if people had begun smoking cigarettes just 20 years ago, by now the long term impacts would be plainly evident. It is clearly less harmful, potentially harmless or with a harm threshold similar to caffeine, so any way you slice it, it is HARM REDUCTION from the baseline of cigarette smoking.

 
Chantix caused Bourdain’s death (psst, it’s only ~20% effective, just like vaping)? I thought he hung himself? I guess the 27 placebo control trials got it wrong? 

My point wasn’t to comparing teen vaping and the recent illnesses/deaths. But both have to be considered when weighing the risk:benefits of e-cigs.
How do you balance the harm that ropes cause with the benefits? Why even have rope when we can use zip ties? No one hung themselves with a zip tie?

 
Chantix caused Bourdain’s death (psst, it’s only ~20% effective, just like vaping)? I thought he hung himself? I guess the 27 placebo control trials got it wrong? 

My point wasn’t to comparing teen vaping and the recent illnesses/deaths. But both have to be considered when weighing the risk:benefits of e-cigs.
I think you may have an incomplete view of Chantix research. 

 
My view happens to concur with the FDAs...what are we missing?
The FDA isn’t missing anything that I’m aware of. You appear to be missing study limitations for the studies that led to removing the black box warning and the difference between removing a black box warning and stating that the symptom isn’t caused by or contributing to the symptom with some patients. 

 
Some people have been vaping for 20 years. At what point does "we don't know much about long term toxicity" become "we don't know of any long term health impacts"? Because, right now is actually the truth, no long term negative health impacts have been scientifically found as of yet. I think we all assume there will be some, but if people had begun smoking cigarettes just 20 years ago, by now the long term impacts would be plainly evident. It is clearly less harmful, potentially harmless or with a harm threshold similar to caffeine, so any way you slice it, it is HARM REDUCTION from the baseline of cigarette smoking.
The FDA didn’t really get involved with vaping ingredient safety until its deeming regulations were approved in 2016. That’s not a lot of time to accrue safety data. 

And to restate, no one is suggesting e-cigs are as harmful as combustible tobacco - the more relevant comparison involves other tobacco cessation methods. Not sure how caffeine fits in, but I doubt inhaling a bunch of poorly tested aerosolized chemicals is akin to drinking coffee.

 
The FDA isn’t missing anything that I’m aware of. You appear to be missing study limitations for the studies that led to removing the black box warning and the difference between removing a black box warning and stating that the symptom isn’t caused by or contributing to the symptom with some patients. 
I’m quite comfortable interpreting scientific data, thanks. Every study has limitations, but ultimately the bulk of the higher-quality Chantix data doesn’t support a link with suicide. 

Meanwhile, you and your vaping colleagues cling to a single study showing higher quit rates with electronic cigarettes, despite some data stating otherwise. Wonder why? At least my conclusion is based on multiple studies involving thousands of patients and concurs with major regulatory agencies.

 
I’m quite comfortable interpreting scientific data, thanks. Every study has limitations, but ultimately the bulk of the higher-quality Chantix data doesn’t support a link with suicide. 

Meanwhile, you and your vaping colleagues cling to a single study showing higher quit rates with electronic cigarettes, despite some data stating otherwise. Wonder why? At least my conclusion is based on multiple studies involving thousands of patients and concurs with major regulatory agencies.
Do I? I must have missed that.  I certainly apologize if you feel I’ve been clinging to a single study of any kind. Can you point that post out for me so I can edit that part out?

 
How do you balance the harm that ropes cause with the benefits? Why even have rope when we can use zip ties? No one hung themselves with a zip tie?
I’m a climber. Using a rope will improve my personal mortality substantially in comparison to free soloing, and climbing ropes are rigorously safety tested.

But if one is in the market for a suicide tool, there are far more effective ones available. Coincidentally, there is dire need for regulation in that realm as well.

 
Do I? I must have missed that.  I certainly apologize if you feel I’ve been clinging to a single study of any kind. Can you point that post out for me so I can edit that part out?
Every time the 18% quit rate is mentioned, or you suggest vaping is twice as effective for smoking cessation you are indirectly referring to that study.

 
Every time the 18% quit rate is mentioned, or you suggest vaping is twice as effective for smoking cessation you are indirectly referring to that study.
I’m not responsible for every time any quit rate is mentioned in this thread, and I believe the only time I discussed it was in direct response to your question to me specifically about that rate as posted by Hulk.  

So, again, when you accuse me, specifically, of clinging to a single study for some purpose, can you explain why you are making that accusation?

 
eoMMan said:
(Hulk)...what's the name of the Vape store you own?   :D
I'm a federal contractor, don't own a vape store.

I just believe I need them to avoid picking up cigarettes ever again. As that is something I'd very much like to do, I'm more than frazzled at what is going on lately.

 
Where is the study proving negative long term impacts of vaping?

Where is the study showing the quit rate is LOWER than other methods?

Where is the study that shows vaping leads to cigarette smoking?

I've not seen any of those that meet the bar of being "scientific".

To tap into something said earlier, there isn't a ton of research out there yet. What is out there and scientifically sound, supports what I've said.

Anyways, you don't get to claim not enough research and then turn around and burn others for citing the same study more than once. That's just dirty pool.

 
Henry Ford said:
I’m not responsible for every time any quit rate is mentioned in this thread, and I believe the only time I discussed it was in direct response to your question to me specifically about that rate as posted by Hulk.  

So, again, when you accuse me, specifically, of clinging to a single study for some purpose, can you explain why you are making that accusation?
Ok, my bad. But you still don’t seem overly critical of anything that is pro-vaping, at least not in comparison to your scrutiny of Chantix, for example.

 
God, I love doing things under the auspices of "public health." Thomas Szasz lives on, gloriously having sounded the warning, ever-ignored.

 
Really? Have I criticized Chantix in some heavily scrutinized way? I’d like to see that post, too. 
The posts where you accuse me of not understanding research limitations wrt to Chantix, and dismissing the importance of removing a black box warning, despite the highest quality research on the matter finding no association between Chantix and suicidality.

 
Where is the study proving negative long term impacts of vaping?

Where is the study showing the quit rate is LOWER than other methods?

Where is the study that shows vaping leads to cigarette smoking?

I've not seen any of those that meet the bar of being "scientific".

To tap into something said earlier, there isn't a ton of research out there yet. What is out there and scientifically sound, supports what I've said.

Anyways, you don't get to claim not enough research and then turn around and burn others for citing the same study more than once. That's just dirty pool.
We don’t have any good research on long term vaping safety, and the default shouldn’t be to assume it’s safe.

I’ve linked studies discussing vaping quit rates being comparable to other methods (multimodal quit strategies involving pharmacologic, behavioral and possibly financial incentives). Chantix by itself is just as good, but you’ve written that off despite data proving otherwise.

Here’s a Study which shows increased smoking risks among teens who vape. 

I’m not burning others for citing the NEJM study...I’m criticizing them for ignoring everything else out there, if it doesn’t confirm their biases.

 
The posts where you accuse me of not understanding research limitations wrt to Chantix, and dismissing the importance of removing a black box warning, despite the highest quality research on the matter finding no association between Chantix and suicidality.
You know how you had to add a really long part of this that has nothing to do with me but rather restating your point to try to make this sound almost like I’d done what you accused me of? 

That’s because I didn’t do it.

I’m not criticizing Chantix.  I’m criticizing your position. 

 
You know how you had to add a really long part of this that has nothing to do with me but rather restating your point to try to make this sound almost like I’d done what you accused me of? 

That’s because I didn’t do it.

I’m not criticizing Chantix.  I’m criticizing your position. 
You are implying Chantix isn’t safe, and in the process insulting my ability to read medical literature.

 
You are implying Chantix isn’t safe, and in the process insulting my ability to read medical literature.
I’m not insulting your ability to read medical literature, and in the same vein vaping isn’t “safe” I think we can agree that virtually no drug used to alter mood or cravings, like almost any other drug out there, is “safe.”  Everything has side effects that aren’t ideal. 

The studies you’re talking about indicate a lack of evidence that Chantix is worse at causing suicidal ideation than other drugs used for similar purposes or than nicotine replacement therapy.  That does not indicate that it doesn’t cause or contribute to suicidal ideation.  In fact, given the state of research indicating that nicotine use in general is correlated with suicidal ideation,  possibly due to nicotine causing decreased serotonin levels, seems like maybe it does cause those if it has similar levels of suicidal ideation.

And it doesn’t indicate that no individuals who didn’t have suicidal ideation on NRT have suicidal ideation on Chantix. That’s an unknowable.

 
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As someone who used both Chantix and vaping on two different occasions, I can say from my experience they both worked great.  Chantix just made me forget to want to smoke.  I wish they'd make a similar drug for eating fatty, junk food.  And also a version that let me forget all the embarrassing crap I've done in my life that I tend to constantly think about at 3am while laying in bed trying to sleep.  "Why did you tell Heather you liked her in front of everyone at recess in 2nd grade?  So stupid.  STUPID!" 

 
I’m not insulting your ability to read medical literature, and in the same vein vaping isn’t “safe” I think we can agree that virtually no drug used to alter mood or cravings, like almost any other drug out there, is “safe.”  Everything has side effects that aren’t ideal. 

The studies you’re talking about indicate a lack of evidence that Chantix is worse at causing suicidal ideation than other drugs used for similar purposes or than nicotine replacement therapy.  That does not indicate that it doesn’t cause or contribute to suicidal ideation.  In fact, given the state of research indicating that nicotine use in general is correlated with suicidal ideation,  possibly due to nicotine causing decreased serotonin levels, seems like maybe it does cause those if it has similar levels of suicidal ideation.

And it doesn’t indicate that no individuals who didn’t have suicidal ideation on NRT have suicidal ideation on Chantix. That’s an unknowable.
I’ll be the judge of whether you’ve insulted my ability to critically evaluate the literature, thanks.

I stand by by my position that you’re more willing to criticize non-vaping smoking cessation methods and accept vaping is relatively safe. While it’s great that it’s worked for you and some others in this thread, that’s not convincing enough for me, nor just about every medical and public health organization in this country - for some reason the Brits believe otherwise, so you have them on your side.

 
As someone who used both Chantix and vaping on two different occasions, I can say from my experience they both worked great.  Chantix just made me forget to want to smoke.  I wish they'd make a similar drug for eating fatty, junk food.  And also a version that let me forget all the embarrassing crap I've done in my life that I tend to constantly think about at 3am while laying in bed trying to sleep.  "Why did you tell Heather you liked her in front of everyone at recess in 2nd grade?  So stupid.  STUPID!" 
Chantix worked great for my father, who chewed tobacco for over 50 years. 

 
I’ll be the judge of whether you’ve insulted my ability to critically evaluate the literature, thanks.

I stand by by my position that you’re more willing to criticize non-vaping smoking cessation methods and accept vaping is relatively safe. While it’s great that it’s worked for you and some others in this thread, that’s not convincing enough for me, nor just about every medical and public health organization in this country - for some reason the Brits believe otherwise, so you have them on your side.
Okay.  

 
For Hulk, here is the editorial accompanying the NEJM study you've cited. They do a good job articulating some points I've failed to convey, which answer many of your questions:

The prevalence of tobacco smoking in the United States has declined to 14.0% but still exceeds 25% among high-risk subgroups.1,2 Electronic cigarettes (e-cigarettes) are not approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for smoking cessation, but Americans trying to quit smoking use these products more frequently than FDA-approved cessation aids.3 Comparative-effectiveness trials are needed to learn whether smokers have a better chance of quitting with e-cigarettes. Previous trials have had methodologic shortcomings, used first-generation e-cigarettes, or did not assess long-term outcomes.

Hajek et al.4 now report in the Journal the results of a multicenter, pragmatic, randomized trial of e-cigarettes, as compared with nicotine-replacement therapy, as a smoking-cessation treatment within the U.K. National Health Service smoking-cessation program. In addition to behavioral support, participants received either a second-generation refillable e-cigarette or a 3-month supply of whichever nicotine-replacement products they preferred. After 1 year, the rate of abstinence from smoking tobacco, validated by exhaled carbon monoxide concentration, was higher in the e-cigarette group (18.0%) than in the nicotine-replacement group (9.9%). Trial limitations include a lack of objective and validated measures of adherence and the possibility that smoking-cessation counselors who were aware of the treatment assignments may have influenced patient expectations.

These findings must be considered in the context of FDA-approved medications for smoking cessation that have acceptable safety profiles. Treatment with nicotine-replacement therapy and bupropion achieves abstinence rates of approximately 25 to 26% at 6 months and 20% at 1 year,5 with slightly higher abstinence rates for combination therapy than for monotherapy.6 Varenicline has been shown to outperform bupropion, all forms of nicotine-replacement therapy, and placebo, with a 26% abstinence rate through 24 weeks of follow-up among participants without psychiatric diagnoses.7 The 1-year abstinence rate of 18% reported by Hajek et al. for the e-cigarette group is similar to these outcomes.

This evidence of effectiveness must be balanced against the short-term and long-term safety of e-cigarettes. With regard to the former, the data from Hajek et al. are reassuring: the e-cigarette group had greater declines in the incidence of cough and phlegm than the nicotine-replacement group, no excess wheezing or dyspnea, and only a small incidence of oropharyngeal irritation. More frequent respiratory serious adverse events in the e-cigarette group than in the nicotine-replacement group (5 vs. 1) did not appear to be related to e-cigarette use. A limitation of this pragmatic trial is the lack of information on the presence of asthma or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, which could confer a predisposition to short-term adverse respiratory health effects, although previous reports have suggested short-term clinical benefit among patients with these conditions who switch from tobacco smoking to e-cigarette use.8 The use of e-cigarettes by pregnant women, who were excluded from the trial by Hajek et al., raises special safety concerns. Although nicotine-patch use during pregnancy is associated with a higher rate of smoking cessation and better child-development outcomes than placebo,9 there are no such reassuring data for e-cigarettes.

A key finding of Hajek et al. is that among participants with sustained abstinence at 1 year, 63 of 79 (80%) in the e-cigarette group were still using e-cigarettes, whereas only 4 of 44 (9%) in the nicotine-replacement group were still using nicotine replacement. This differential pattern of long-term use raises concerns about the health consequences of long-term e-cigarette use. E-cigarette vapor contains many toxins and exerts potentially adverse biologic effects on human cells in vitro or in animal models, although toxin levels and biologic effects are generally lower than those of tobacco smoke.10 A study involving humans showed an altered bronchial epithelial proteome in association with e-cigarette use, including some protein alterations also seen among tobacco smokers.11 In a mouse model, inhalational exposure to nebulized e-cigarette liquid containing nicotine resulted in distal airspace enlargement that was consistent with pulmonary emphysema.12 These findings argue against complacency in accepting the transition from tobacco smoking to indefinite e-cigarette use as a completely successful smoking-cessation outcome.

An additional societal consideration is the effect of adult e-cigarette use on children and young adults. Adult use may not only expose children to e-cigarette vapor but also models addictive behavior. There is substantial evidence that e-cigarette use by youth increases the risk of smoking combustible tobacco cigarettes,10 and the U.S. Surgeon General has recently declared e-cigarette use among youth “an epidemic.”13

A consensus has emerged that e-cigarettes are safer than traditional combustible cigarettes,10 but it remains controversial whether e-cigarettes should be recommended as a first-line treatment to assist smoking cessation, alongside FDA-approved treatments. The appropriate duration of e-cigarette “treatment” for smokers trying to quit is also uncertain. We recommend that e-cigarettes be used only when FDA-approved treatments (combined with behavioral counseling) fail, that patients be advised to use the lowest dose needed to manage their cravings, and that there be a clear timeline and “off ramp” for use. Use of e-cigarettes should be monitored by health care providers, like other pharmacologic smoking-cessation treatments. The efficacy and safety of e-cigarettes need to be evaluated in high-risk subgroups, and further research on the health consequences of long-term e-cigarette use is needed.
Probably the best summary of the data can be found here. It's a several hundred page PDF from the National Academy of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine from Jan 2018. Among other items, it catalogues the research on toxicity and risk of combustible tobacco use among adolescents who vape. Cliff's notes: Not enough safety data, but reason for some concern, and teens who vape have roughly quadruple the risk of subsequent smoking. Report conclusions here.

 
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We don’t have any good research on long term vaping safety, and the default shouldn’t be to assume it’s safe.

I’ve linked studies discussing vaping quit rates being comparable to other methods (multimodal quit strategies involving pharmacologic, behavioral and possibly financial incentives). Chantix by itself is just as good, but you’ve written that off despite data proving otherwise.

Here’s a Study which shows increased smoking risks among teens who vape. 

I’m not burning others for citing the NEJM study...I’m criticizing them for ignoring everything else out there, if it doesn’t confirm their biases.
I didn't write off Chantix. I've done it twice and it worked both times... and that's what I said. It just didn't last for me... I backslide both times after months without smoking.

 
For Hulk, here is the editorial accompanying the NEJM study you've cited. They do a good job articulating some points I've failed to convey, which answer many of your questions:

Probably the best summary of the data can be found here. It's a several hundred page PDF from the National Academy of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine from Jan 2018. Among other items, it catalogues the research on toxicity and risk of combustible tobacco use among adolescents who vape. Cliff's notes: Not enough safety data, but reason for some concern, and teens who vape have roughly quadruple the risk of subsequent smoking. Report conclusions here.
Interesting stuff, thanks for posting it.

I wonder what the rate would be if you combined e-cigs with another methodology what the results would be? Looks like that wasn't covered, but it could up the quit rate based on the success combo treatment has seen with other options.

Now, while I've used them to quit cigs completely, and some others have too, I don't even think that is necessary for them to be legal. Since cigs are legal, and these are safer, they should be legal. I also think they should be regulated for quality. So, I have a weird have libertarian half liberal thought mishmash on it.

 
Henry Ford said:
You're telling me.  Apparently now saying "I think you may have an incomplete view of" something is an insult.
Well, it's inane at the minimum, as apparently it's impossible to for a drug to be "safe", in your opinion. 

But you're usually quite reasonable and congenial, so I'll write this off to untoward side effects of your nicotine consumption.

 
Well, it's inane at the minimum, as apparently it's impossible to for a drug to be "safe", in your opinion. 

But you're usually quite reasonable and congenial, so I'll write this off to untoward side effects of your nicotine consumption.
Thanks.  You’ve been quite hostile and argumentative, but I assume it’s because you don’t calm down with a bit of controlled breathing that also introduces an acetylcholine receptor agonist into your body. 

 
Thanks.  You’ve been quite hostile and argumentative, but I assume it’s because you don’t calm down with a bit of controlled breathing that also introduces an acetylcholine receptor agonist into your body. 
I apologize for coming across as hostile, as I sincerely value your opinion. Hopefully you can understand a few arguments may occur when one poster takes an opposing viewpoint from the majority of participants in a thread.

ETA I use exercise to calm down, and I’m quite calm after my evening run.

 
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I apologize for coming across as hostile, as I sincerely value your opinion. Hopefully you can understand a few arguments may occur when one poster takes an opposing viewpoint from the majority of participants in a thread.

ETA I use exercise to calm down, and I’m quite calm after my evening run.
Well I certainly apologize for having insulted you. It really wasn’t my intention.  Your position seemed stronger than the data, and I wasn’t certain what you’d read and what you hadn’t, not that I didn’t think you could understand the literature. I don’t disagree with the general belief that we don’t know the long term health effects of vaping.  

I do wonder what “pump the brakes” means as far as policy goes, but it’s not like I’d recommend we put vape juice in baby formula. 

 
Well I certainly apologize for having insulted you. It really wasn’t my intention.  Your position seemed stronger than the data, and I wasn’t certain what you’d read and what you hadn’t, not that I didn’t think you could understand the literature. I don’t disagree with the general belief that we don’t know the long term health effects of vaping.  

I do wonder what “pump the brakes” means as far as policy goes, but it’s not like I’d recommend we put vape juice in baby formula. 
It’s a tough to know how much regulation and safety data is necessary, but I’d err on the side of caution, as the technology and ingredients are still relatively new. The flavoring is particularly problematic, as it likely contributes both to smoking cessation in adults and the appeal of vaping in adolescents. The Academy of Sciences article I linked discusses most of the salient issues in great detail, but I’ve only skimmed it at this point.

 
It’s a tough to know how much regulation and safety data is necessary, but I’d err on the side of caution, as the technology and ingredients are still relatively new. The flavoring is particularly problematic, as it likely contributes both to smoking cessation in adults and the appeal of vaping in adolescents. The Academy of Sciences article I linked discusses most of the salient issues in great detail, but I’ve only skimmed it at this point.
Right. Solely anecdotal, but if you discontinue flavoring you may as well just ban vaping for many people I know.  Until I found my flavor I wasn’t sure I could stick with it.  Once I did, I stuck with the same flavor for about five years.  I’m just now branching out from that and feel like I can do that and still stay off the cigarettes. Lots of people, if they can’t get their vanilla custard or cotton candy or butterscotch or whatever they’ll just go back to cigarettes. It’s the thing that makes you say “yeah, I enjoy a cigarette a little more but i love the flavor part of this and I can’t get that in a cigarette.” Very helpful sometimes. 

 
Right. Solely anecdotal, but if you discontinue flavoring you may as well just ban vaping for many people I know.  Until I found my flavor I wasn’t sure I could stick with it.  Once I did, I stuck with the same flavor for about five years.  I’m just now branching out from that and feel like I can do that and still stay off the cigarettes. Lots of people, if they can’t get their vanilla custard or cotton candy or butterscotch or whatever they’ll just go back to cigarettes. It’s the thing that makes you say “yeah, I enjoy a cigarette a little more but i love the flavor part of this and I can’t get that in a cigarette.” Very helpful sometimes. 
Are you trying to quit vaping? 

 
Well I certainly apologize for having insulted you. It really wasn’t my intention.  Your position seemed stronger than the data, and I wasn’t certain what you’d read and what you hadn’t, not that I didn’t think you could understand the literature. I don’t disagree with the general belief that we don’t know the long term health effects of vaping.  

I do wonder what “pump the brakes” means as far as policy goes, but it’s not like I’d recommend we put vape juice in baby formula. 
Jesus.  Get a room, you two.

 
TheIronSheik said:
As someone who used both Chantix and vaping on two different occasions, I can say from my experience they both worked great.  Chantix just made me forget to want to smoke.  I wish they'd make a similar drug for eating fatty, junk food.  And also a version that let me forget all the embarrassing crap I've done in my life that I tend to constantly think about at3am while laying in bed trying to sleep .  "Why did you tell Heather you liked her in front of everyone at recess in 2nd grade?  So stupid.  STUPID!" 
[And also a version that let me forget all the embarrassing crap I've done in my life that I tend to constantly think about at3am while laying in bed trying to sleep .  "Why did you tell Heather you liked her in front of everyone at recess in 2nd grade?  So stupid.  STUPID!" ]

I was thinking I was the only one, sheik.    I'm the same.   I have to leave the TV on all night as dead silence induces way too much thinking about stuff like this.

 
I'm pretty sure I've been on the opposite side of an argument w/ Mr. Ford before (Robert Kraft "sex trafficking" thread). I didn't love it. Even though I was super correct and on point. My heart goes out to you @Terminalxylem. Although, please note that in both instances #hulkwasright

 

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