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ESPYs thread (1 Viewer)

Lotta ignorance in here. Like listening to an old man wonder who is the man and who is the woman in a gay relationship...just a small-minded moron trying to fit something he doesn't understand into his antiquated world-view.
:coffee: Waiting for your well-informed explanation. If you want to insult others some more, have at it... I'm patient.
I'm not even sure what you're asking for. A simple google search and an open mind will get you about 80% of what you need, which is just a basic understanding of what it even means to be transgendered. The other 20% you need to intelligently discuss this topic is compassion for what the person is going through. That's harder to come by, because even in 2015 the vast majority of people (especially the majority demographic on FBG's) out there don't actually know anyone in their personal lives who is transgender.I do. One of my best friends in college was a guy named Alex, who became a girl named Laura. Alex was a hell of an athlete, liked to drink cheap beer, and was obsessed with StarCraft2 in college. By our senior year, he felt comfortable telling us that he had always struggled with gender identity, and after years of counseling was going to transition. She's much happier now, with none of the inner demons that had plagued her for over 20 years.

I'm happy to answer any questions I can, although my knowledge is strictly what I've read and what I learned being friends with someone going through this.

Just remember--ignorance is innocent until it's been brought to your attention. Then, if you refuse to educate yourself, it becomes malicious. I don't think you meant to be insulting towards the trans community with your comments (although I think you knew it was insensitive and didn't care). I think you just honestly are in over your head with a difficult topic that doesn't fit everyone's world-view. That can change, though.
NAILED IT http://i.imgur.com/gCQ0R.gif

 
Has there been any confirmation he had his junk removed? The last thing I read was he didn't.
Most transgender individuals don't.
I don't know man, this whole conversation seems kind of messed up.

I'm sure he is suffering but so are those people who feel their limbs don't belong to them and try to cut them off. Wouldn't give them a medal for having the courage to be themselves and hack their arm off.

 
I think its pretty clear that ESPN made the right call giving the award to Jenner instead of Lauren Hill. Because no one really appears to give a damn about Hill, while everyone seems to have an opinion about Jenner.
I would describe Hill's story as more inspirational than courageous. That's not a knock on her at all. Based on the comments in this thread alone I think it's fair to say Jenner's decision took courage.
Yeah you are right. It doesn't take courge to stare death in the face way before you should have to. But it is courageous for a 60 year old + man who was losing his celebritry to decide he wants t*ts and a p###y.

 
Has there been any confirmation he had his junk removed? The last thing I read was he didn't.
Most transgender individuals don't.
I don't know man, this whole conversation seems kind of messed up.

I'm sure he is suffering but so are those people who feel their limbs don't belong to them and try to cut them off. Wouldn't give them a medal for having the courage to be themselves and hack their arm off.
Thanks for checking in, youre still an ignorant hick.

 
Has there been any confirmation he had his junk removed? The last thing I read was he didn't.
Most transgender individuals don't.
I don't know man, this whole conversation seems kind of messed up.

I'm sure he is suffering but so are those people who feel their limbs don't belong to them and try to cut them off. Wouldn't give them a medal for having the courage to be themselves and hack their arm off.
Thanks for checking in, youre still an ignorant hick.
youre giving him too much credit here.

 
Has there been any confirmation he had his junk removed? The last thing I read was he didn't.
Most transgender individuals don't.
I don't know man, this whole conversation seems kind of messed up.I'm sure he is suffering but so are those people who feel their limbs don't belong to them and try to cut them off. Wouldn't give them a medal for having the courage to be themselves and hack their arm off.
Thanks for checking in, youre still an ignorant hick.
If being against sterilizing yourself and chopping off your wang off makes me a hick, then by all means I am a hick.Not sure why this can't be a two-sided issue like abortion. You want to tell me my religion or stance on abortion is wrong next? Have respect for other's opinions, guy.

 
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Has there been any confirmation he had his junk removed? The last thing I read was he didn't.
Most transgender individuals don't.
I don't know man, this whole conversation seems kind of messed up.I'm sure he is suffering but so are those people who feel their limbs don't belong to them and try to cut them off. Wouldn't give them a medal for having the courage to be themselves and hack their arm off.
Thanks for checking in, youre still an ignorant hick.
If being against sterilizing yourself and chopping off your wang off makes me a hick, then by all means I am a hick.Not sure why this can't be a two-sided issue like abortion. You want to tell me my religion or stance on abortion is wrong next? Have respect for other's opinions, guy.
Not possible. If you aren't a liberal kiss a&& you are nothing.

 
So Jenner hit the Prius into oncoming traffic? That video was a little hard to figure out.
No, the Lexus (I think - the white car).
Wow, that plays out a whole lot different than I had previously read. I had read it was basically the Prius driver's fault because they stopped dead in a highway lane. Not even close. This was heavy traffic and the Prius was only 2-3 car lengths from the car in front of it. The Lexus was behind the Prius and "Caitlyn" was behind the Lexus. She(he at the time) while pulling a trailer with a vehicle of some sort on it was following so close that he plowed through the Lexus, pushed it out of the way into oncoming traffic and then plowed into the Prius too. Damn! Totally her/his fault.
Just sad.

 
Has there been any confirmation he had his junk removed? The last thing I read was he didn't.
Most transgender individuals don't.
I don't know man, this whole conversation seems kind of messed up.I'm sure he is suffering but so are those people who feel their limbs don't belong to them and try to cut them off. Wouldn't give them a medal for having the courage to be themselves and hack their arm off.
Thanks for checking in, youre still an ignorant hick.
If being against sterilizing yourself and chopping off your wang off makes me a hick, then by all means I am a hick.Not sure why this can't be a two-sided issue like abortion. You want to tell me my religion or stance on abortion is wrong next? Have respect for other's opinions, guy.
You are terrible at analogies and comparisons. Nothing you've brought up so far is in any way related to the issue at hand.

 
Has there been any confirmation he had his junk removed? The last thing I read was he didn't.
Most transgender individuals don't.
I don't know man, this whole conversation seems kind of messed up.I'm sure he is suffering but so are those people who feel their limbs don't belong to them and try to cut them off. Wouldn't give them a medal for having the courage to be themselves and hack their arm off.
Thanks for checking in, youre still an ignorant hick.
If being against sterilizing yourself and chopping off your wang off makes me a hick, then by all means I am a hick.Not sure why this can't be a two-sided issue like abortion. You want to tell me my religion or stance on abortion is wrong next? Have respect for other's opinions, guy.
You are terrible at analogies and comparisons. Nothing you've brought up so far is in any way related to the issue at hand.
You have been presented with an opportunity to persuade others.

Your call.

 
Has there been any confirmation he had his junk removed? The last thing I read was he didn't.
Most transgender individuals don't.
I don't know man, this whole conversation seems kind of messed up.I'm sure he is suffering but so are those people who feel their limbs don't belong to them and try to cut them off. Wouldn't give them a medal for having the courage to be themselves and hack their arm off.
Thanks for checking in, youre still an ignorant hick.
If being against sterilizing yourself and chopping off your wang off makes me a hick, then by all means I am a hick.Not sure why this can't be a two-sided issue like abortion. You want to tell me my religion or stance on abortion is wrong next? Have respect for other's opinions, guy.
You are terrible at analogies and comparisons. Nothing you've brought up so far is in any way related to the issue at hand.
You have been presented with an opportunity to persuade others.Your call.
I think I said pretty much all there is to say on the previous page. It's quoted at the top of this page as well, if you missed it. Some people are so lost in their own narrow understanding of gender and/or sexuality that they'd label anyone struggling with a very real, very tragic identity crisis a "freak" or "cross-dresser".There's not really much you can do when faced with that kind of brutal ignorance, other than to state your case and see if it connects with anyone. I did that. So far no one who disagrees has quoted it and responded, and I think that's telling (talking to you, EYLive).

 
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Has there been any confirmation he had his junk removed? The last thing I read was he didn't.
Most transgender individuals don't.
I don't know man, this whole conversation seems kind of messed up.I'm sure he is suffering but so are those people who feel their limbs don't belong to them and try to cut them off. Wouldn't give them a medal for having the courage to be themselves and hack their arm off.
Thanks for checking in, youre still an ignorant hick.
If being against sterilizing yourself and chopping off your wang off makes me a hick, then by all means I am a hick.Not sure why this can't be a two-sided issue like abortion. You want to tell me my religion or stance on abortion is wrong next? Have respect for other's opinions, guy.
You are terrible at analogies and comparisons. Nothing you've brought up so far is in any way related to the issue at hand.
You have been presented with an opportunity to persuade others.Your call.
According to the national Youth Suicide Prevention Program, more than 50 percent of transgender youth will have had at least one suicide attempt by their 20th birthday.

Persuasive enough?

 
Has there been any confirmation he had his junk removed? The last thing I read was he didn't.
Most transgender individuals don't.
I don't know man, this whole conversation seems kind of messed up.I'm sure he is suffering but so are those people who feel their limbs don't belong to them and try to cut them off. Wouldn't give them a medal for having the courage to be themselves and hack their arm off.
Thanks for checking in, youre still an ignorant hick.
If being against sterilizing yourself and chopping off your wang off makes me a hick, then by all means I am a hick.Not sure why this can't be a two-sided issue like abortion. You want to tell me my religion or stance on abortion is wrong next? Have respect for other's opinions, guy.
You are terrible at analogies and comparisons. Nothing you've brought up so far is in any way related to the issue at hand.
You have been presented with an opportunity to persuade others.Your call.
I think I said pretty much all there is to say on the previous page. It's quoted at the top of this page as well, if you missed it. Some people are so lost in their own narrow understanding of gender and/or sexuality that they'd label anyone struggling with a very real, very tragic identity crisis a "freak" or "cross-dresser".There's not really much you can do when faced with that kind of brutal ignorance, other than to state your case and see if it connects with anyone. I did that. So far no one who disagrees has quoted it and responded, and I think that's telling (talking to you, EYLive).
One can deviate without being, or being treated as, a deviant.

 
Has there been any confirmation he had his junk removed? The last thing I read was he didn't.
Most transgender individuals don't.
I don't know man, this whole conversation seems kind of messed up.I'm sure he is suffering but so are those people who feel their limbs don't belong to them and try to cut them off. Wouldn't give them a medal for having the courage to be themselves and hack their arm off.
Thanks for checking in, youre still an ignorant hick.
If being against sterilizing yourself and chopping off your wang off makes me a hick, then by all means I am a hick.Not sure why this can't be a two-sided issue like abortion. You want to tell me my religion or stance on abortion is wrong next? Have respect for other's opinions, guy.
You are terrible at analogies and comparisons. Nothing you've brought up so far is in any way related to the issue at hand.
You have been presented with an opportunity to persuade others.Your call.
I think I said pretty much all there is to say on the previous page. It's quoted at the top of this page as well, if you missed it. Some people are so lost in their own narrow understanding of gender and/or sexuality that they'd label anyone struggling with a very real, very tragic identity crisis a "freak" or "cross-dresser".There's not really much you can do when faced with that kind of brutal ignorance, other than to state your case and see if it connects with anyone. I did that. So far no one who disagrees has quoted it and responded, and I think that's telling (talking to you, EYLive).
Come on, quit with the self-righteous indignation. Brutal ignorance, please. At this very point in time the majority of individuals on both sides of the spectrum do indeed have a very narrow understanding of gender ==> Penis = Male. I've no doubt I could pick a nit or two and discover your evolution lacks too. Personally I think we all need a little more persuasion and a little less high-horse.

And it's bad form to hitch your wagon to an attention-whoring, unsympathetic character while attacking another's level of understanding.

As far as I've thought matters through, Caitlyn's struggles with gender identity are no more significant than someone else's struggles with drugs, alcohol, ADD, OCD, depression, anorexia, etc., etc.

She's just not that special.

 
Has there been any confirmation he had his junk removed? The last thing I read was he didn't.
Most transgender individuals don't.
I don't know man, this whole conversation seems kind of messed up.I'm sure he is suffering but so are those people who feel their limbs don't belong to them and try to cut them off. Wouldn't give them a medal for having the courage to be themselves and hack their arm off.
Thanks for checking in, youre still an ignorant hick.
If being against sterilizing yourself and chopping off your wang off makes me a hick, then by all means I am a hick.Not sure why this can't be a two-sided issue like abortion. You want to tell me my religion or stance on abortion is wrong next? Have respect for other's opinions, guy.
You are terrible at analogies and comparisons. Nothing you've brought up so far is in any way related to the issue at hand.
You have been presented with an opportunity to persuade others.Your call.
I think I said pretty much all there is to say on the previous page. It's quoted at the top of this page as well, if you missed it. Some people are so lost in their own narrow understanding of gender and/or sexuality that they'd label anyone struggling with a very real, very tragic identity crisis a "freak" or "cross-dresser".There's not really much you can do when faced with that kind of brutal ignorance, other than to state your case and see if it connects with anyone. I did that. So far no one who disagrees has quoted it and responded, and I think that's telling (talking to you, EYLive).
Come on, quit with the self-righteous indignation. Brutal ignorance, please. At this very point in time the majority of individuals on both sides of the spectrum do indeed have a very narrow understanding of gender ==> Penis = Male. I've no doubt I could pick a nit or two and discover your evolution lacks too. Personally I think we all need a little more persuasion and a little less high-horse.And it's bad form to hitch your wagon to an attention-whoring, unsympathetic character while attacking another's level of understanding.

As far as I've thought matters through, Caitlyn's struggles with gender identity are no more significant than someone else's struggles with drugs, alcohol, ADD, OCD, depression, anorexia, etc., etc.

She's just not that special.
:lmao:

 
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Has there been any confirmation he had his junk removed? The last thing I read was he didn't.
Most transgender individuals don't.
I don't know man, this whole conversation seems kind of messed up.I'm sure he is suffering but so are those people who feel their limbs don't belong to them and try to cut them off. Wouldn't give them a medal for having the courage to be themselves and hack their arm off.
Thanks for checking in, youre still an ignorant hick.
If being against sterilizing yourself and chopping off your wang off makes me a hick, then by all means I am a hick.Not sure why this can't be a two-sided issue like abortion. You want to tell me my religion or stance on abortion is wrong next? Have respect for other's opinions, guy.
You are terrible at analogies and comparisons. Nothing you've brought up so far is in any way related to the issue at hand.
You have been presented with an opportunity to persuade others.Your call.
I think I said pretty much all there is to say on the previous page. It's quoted at the top of this page as well, if you missed it. Some people are so lost in their own narrow understanding of gender and/or sexuality that they'd label anyone struggling with a very real, very tragic identity crisis a "freak" or "cross-dresser".There's not really much you can do when faced with that kind of brutal ignorance, other than to state your case and see if it connects with anyone. I did that. So far no one who disagrees has quoted it and responded, and I think that's telling (talking to you, EYLive).
Come on, quit with the self-righteous indignation. Brutal ignorance, please. At this very point in time the majority of individuals on both sides of the spectrum do indeed have a very narrow understanding of gender ==> Penis = Male. I've no doubt I could pick a nit or two and discover your evolution lacks too. Personally I think we all need a little more persuasion and a little less high-horse.And it's bad form to hitch your wagon to an attention-whoring, unsympathetic character while attacking another's level of understanding.

As far as I've thought matters through, Caitlyn's struggles with gender identity are no more significant than someone else's struggles with drugs, alcohol, ADD, OCD, depression, anorexia, etc., etc.

She's just not that special.
:lmao:
The ADD was my idea.

 
Has there been any confirmation he had his junk removed? The last thing I read was he didn't.
Most transgender individuals don't.
I don't know man, this whole conversation seems kind of messed up.I'm sure he is suffering but so are those people who feel their limbs don't belong to them and try to cut them off. Wouldn't give them a medal for having the courage to be themselves and hack their arm off.
Thanks for checking in, youre still an ignorant hick.
If being against sterilizing yourself and chopping off your wang off makes me a hick, then by all means I am a hick.Not sure why this can't be a two-sided issue like abortion. You want to tell me my religion or stance on abortion is wrong next? Have respect for other's opinions, guy.
Not possible. If you aren't a liberal kiss a&& you are nothing.
This seems to be the overwhelming trend here on the FFA as of late.

I am a moderate by nature and actually quite liberal on certain topics and conservative on others., but liberals are in full on attack mode on anything they disagree with you about.

As far as transgenders....I have zero issues with them, gay people. Never had issues personally with it.

But Jenner's so called "Journey" reeks of reality tv BS. He may truly be trans-gender (which yeah I believe that) but his exploitation of it for personal gain is absolutely disgusting.

And it should not be celebrated. Some feel because of his stature it can bring transgender to the forefront. I find that convenient for a well known attention whore who has made his life about reality TV. It's pretty freaking obvious. So let's bring transgender to middle america.

It just reeks.

Having an issue with Jenner does not mean some of us have issues with transgenders. So make that distinction if your gray matter has that capability.

 
"“So for the people out there wondering what this is all about — whether it’s about courage or controversy or publicity — well, I’ll tell you what it’s all about. It’s about what happens from here. It’s not just about one person, it’s about thousands of people. It’s not just about me, it’s about all of us accepting one another. We're all different. That’s not a bad thing, that’s a good thing and while it may not be easy to get past the things you always don't understand, I want to prove that it is absolutely possible if we only do it together."

 
Has there been any confirmation he had his junk removed? The last thing I read was he didn't.
Most transgender individuals don't.
I don't know man, this whole conversation seems kind of messed up.I'm sure he is suffering but so are those people who feel their limbs don't belong to them and try to cut them off. Wouldn't give them a medal for having the courage to be themselves and hack their arm off.
Thanks for checking in, youre still an ignorant hick.
If being against sterilizing yourself and chopping off your wang off makes me a hick, then by all means I am a hick.Not sure why this can't be a two-sided issue like abortion. You want to tell me my religion or stance on abortion is wrong next? Have respect for other's opinions, guy.
Not possible. If you aren't a liberal kiss a&& you are nothing.
This seems to be the overwhelming trend here on the FFA as of late.

I am a moderate by nature and actually quite liberal on certain topics and conservative on others., but liberals are in full on attack mode on anything they disagree with you about.

As far as transgenders....I have zero issues with them, gay people. Never had issues personally with it.

But Jenner's so called "Journey" reeks of reality tv BS. He may truly be trans-gender (which yeah I believe that) but his exploitation of it for personal gain is absolutely disgusting.

And it should not be celebrated. Some feel because of his stature it can bring transgender to the forefront. I find that convenient for a well known attention whore who has made his life about reality TV. It's pretty freaking obvious. So let's bring transgender to middle america.

It just reeks.

Having an issue with Jenner does not mean some of us have issues with transgenders. So make that distinction if your gray matter has that capability.
So your argument is that we should not "celebrate" this even though that celebration/acceptance will almost certainly save the lives of some people struggling with their gender identity ... because your deep understanding of the priorities and motivations of Caitlyn Jenner (of which you are so certain that you feel it's appropriate to condemn her as "absolutely disgusting") tells you that she's not doing this for the right reasons?

Also, anyone actually thinks the overall trend of the FFA is "if you aren't a liberal kiss### you are nothing," you are in need of a SERIOUS reality check. This is a forum comprised mainly of relatively well-off middle-aged white men who are football fans. If your views are considered backwards or intolerant among this group that should probably tell you something.

 
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Has there been any confirmation he had his junk removed? The last thing I read was he didn't.
Most transgender individuals don't.
I don't know man, this whole conversation seems kind of messed up.I'm sure he is suffering but so are those people who feel their limbs don't belong to them and try to cut them off. Wouldn't give them a medal for having the courage to be themselves and hack their arm off.
Thanks for checking in, youre still an ignorant hick.
If being against sterilizing yourself and chopping off your wang off makes me a hick, then by all means I am a hick.Not sure why this can't be a two-sided issue like abortion. You want to tell me my religion or stance on abortion is wrong next? Have respect for other's opinions, guy.
Not possible. If you aren't a liberal kiss a&& you are nothing.
This seems to be the overwhelming trend here on the FFA as of late.I am a moderate by nature and actually quite liberal on certain topics and conservative on others., but liberals are in full on attack mode on anything they disagree with you about.

As far as transgenders....I have zero issues with them, gay people. Never had issues personally with it.

But Jenner's so called "Journey" reeks of reality tv BS. He may truly be trans-gender (which yeah I believe that) but his exploitation of it for personal gain is absolutely disgusting.

And it should not be celebrated. Some feel because of his stature it can bring transgender to the forefront. I find that convenient for a well known attention whore who has made his life about reality TV. It's pretty freaking obvious. So let's bring transgender to middle america.

It just reeks.

Having an issue with Jenner does not mean some of us have issues with transgenders. So make that distinction if your gray matter has that capability.
So your argument is that we should not "celebrate" this even though that celebration/acceptance will almost certainly save the lives of some people struggling with their gender identity ... because your deep understanding of the priorities and motivations of Caitlyn Jenner (of which you are so certain that you feel it's appropriate to condemn her as "absolutely disgusting") tells you that she's not doing this for the right reasons?

Also, anyone actually thinks the overall trend of the FFA is "if you aren't a liberal kiss### you are nothing," you are in need of a SERIOUS reality check. This is a forum comprised mainly of relatively well-off middle-aged white men who are football fans. If your views are considered backwards or intolerant among this group that should probably tell you something.
You start a lot of your posts with "so your argument is" or "so your position is" and then you go on to paraphrase things in your words and make assumptions and accusations seemingly ignoring what was actually being said. Poor form.
 
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How is Tobias' response ignoring the ignorance being spewed by Todem?

I think he covered every aspect of it quite well.

 
So your argument is that we should not "celebrate" this even though that celebration/acceptance will almost certainly save the lives of some people struggling with their gender identity ... because your deep understanding of the priorities and motivations of Caitlyn Jenner (of which you are so certain that you feel it's appropriate to condemn her as "absolutely disgusting") tells you that she's not doing this for the right reasons?

Also, anyone actually thinks the overall trend of the FFA is "if you aren't a liberal kiss### you are nothing," you are in need of a SERIOUS reality check. This is a forum comprised mainly of relatively well-off middle-aged white men who are football fans. If your views are considered backwards or intolerant among this group that should probably tell you something.
You start a lot of your posts with "so your argument is" or "so your position is" and then you go on to paraphrase things in your words and make assumptions and accusations seemingly ignoring what was actually being said. Poor form.
I'm very careful to use the poster's own words when I do this, because I hate when people do it to me and get it wrong. And I invited Todem to correct my interpretation. He said "it" should not be celebrated- I assumed he meant Caitlyn Jenner's public declarations of her identity as a woman. He's free to correct that assumption if he likes. He also made harsh conclusions condemning her motivations, and he's so sure of those conclusions that he referred to her as "absolutely disgusting," suggesting that he has some insight into those motivations. He's free to correct that too if he likes.

But if both of those things are true, my post is accurate I (and MANY other people) think this celebration/acceptance will save lives. But he says we shouldn't celebrate it. Thus the only possible conclusions are (1) he disagrees that this celebration/acceptance will in fact save lives (a position I'd like to hear him defend) or (2) he doesn't think saving those lives are worth public acclaim for someone whose character he judges to be poor.

 
Transgender kids commit suicide at a rate infinitely higher than any other group. They do it because they live in a world that hates them.

Those opposed to Jenner have to either completely ignore this, or know it but just not care.

The only way to change this is the change the world, because it's the hate in the world towards these people that motivates them to end their presence in this world.

IMHO, those opposed to Jenner feel threatened. And they should, because the last thing they want to do is let some "freak" like Jenner change who and what they are... and the fact is, who and what they are is the source of the hate that motivates these kids to kill themselves.

 
I'm very careful to use the poster's own words when I do this,
Wrong.
because I hate when people do it to me and get it wrong.
We've also seen you lose your #### when people do it to you and get it right.
And I invited Todem to correct my interpretation. He said "it" should not be celebrated- I assumed he meant Caitlyn Jenner's public declarations of her identity as a woman. He's free to correct that assumption if he likes.
That's not using his own words. That's inference.
He also made harsh conclusions condemning her motivations, and he's so sure of those conclusions that he referred to her as "absolutely disgusting," suggesting that he has some insight into those motivations. He's free to correct that too if he likes.
Again with the inference.
But if both of those things are true, my post is accurate I (and MANY other people) think this celebration/acceptance will save lives. But he says we shouldn't celebrate it. Thus the only possible conclusions are (1) he disagrees that this celebration/acceptance will in fact save lives (a position I'd like to hear him defend) or (2) he doesn't think saving those lives are worth public acclaim for someone whose character he judges to be poor.
False dilemma.
 
Transgender kids commit suicide at a rate infinitely higher than any other group. They do it because they live in a world that hates them.

Those opposed to Jenner have to either completely ignore this, or know it but just not care.

The only way to change this is the change the world, because it's the hate in the world towards these people that motivates them to end their presence in this world.

IMHO, those opposed to Jenner feel threatened. And they should, because the last thing they want to do is let some "freak" like Jenner change who and what they are... and the fact is, who and what they are is the source of the hate that motivates these kids to kill themselves.
Hate is not the right word. Never has been. It's a word used by the liberals to bash anyone who has a different take. I think a lot of people don't get it, don't embrace it, don't necessarily accept, and surely don't welcome it with open arms, but hate is not what it is. I can think a person is weird, but I don't hate them for it. 100% NOT the same.

 
Why did everyone seemingly agree that Jenner was a part of a family of attention whores who the majority of this board strongly disliked, but after he came out as Caitlyn, any negative connotation towards him is because he's transgender?

 
So your argument is that we should not "celebrate" this even though that celebration/acceptance will almost certainly save the lives of some people struggling with their gender identity ... because your deep understanding of the priorities and motivations of Caitlyn Jenner (of which you are so certain that you feel it's appropriate to condemn her as "absolutely disgusting") tells you that she's not doing this for the right reasons?

Also, anyone actually thinks the overall trend of the FFA is "if you aren't a liberal kiss### you are nothing," you are in need of a SERIOUS reality check. This is a forum comprised mainly of relatively well-off middle-aged white men who are football fans. If your views are considered backwards or intolerant among this group that should probably tell you something.
You start a lot of your posts with "so your argument is" or "so your position is" and then you go on to paraphrase things in your words and make assumptions and accusations seemingly ignoring what was actually being said. Poor form.
I'm very careful to use the poster's own words when I do this, because I hate when people do it to me and get it wrong. And I invited Todem to correct my interpretation. He said "it" should not be celebrated- I assumed he meant Caitlyn Jenner's public declarations of her identity as a woman. He's free to correct that assumption if he likes. He also made harsh conclusions condemning her motivations, and he's so sure of those conclusions that he referred to her as "absolutely disgusting," suggesting that he has some insight into those motivations. He's free to correct that too if he likes.

But if both of those things are true, my post is accurate I (and MANY other people) think this celebration/acceptance will save lives. But he says we shouldn't celebrate it. Thus the only possible conclusions are (1) he disagrees that this celebration/acceptance will in fact save lives (a position I'd like to hear him defend) or (2) he doesn't think saving those lives are worth public acclaim for someone whose character he judges to be poor.
I know you think you're taking the high ground, but this response just made my point.

 
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Transgender kids commit suicide at a rate infinitely higher than any other group. They do it because they live in a world that hates them.

Those opposed to Jenner have to either completely ignore this, or know it but just not care.

The only way to change this is the change the world, because it's the hate in the world towards these people that motivates them to end their presence in this world.

IMHO, those opposed to Jenner feel threatened. And they should, because the last thing they want to do is let some "freak" like Jenner change who and what they are... and the fact is, who and what they are is the source of the hate that motivates these kids to kill themselves.
Hate is not the right word. Never has been. It's a word used by the liberals to bash anyone who has a different take. I think a lot of people don't get it, don't embrace it, don't necessarily accept, and surely don't welcome it with open arms, but hate is not what it is. I can think a person is weird, but I don't hate them for it. 100% NOT the same.
When these kids kill themselves because they feel hated, do you really think it matters that you would use a different word to describe the world you and others create around them?

 
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Boy, the way Glenn Miller played! Songs that made the Hit Parade. Guys like us, we had it made. Those were the days! And you knew who you were then. Girls were girls and men were men. Mister, we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again. Didn't need know welfare state. Everybody pulled his weight. Gee, our old LaSalle ran great. Those were the days!

 
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I'm very careful to use the poster's own words when I do this, because I hate when people do it to me and get it wrong. And I invited Todem to correct my interpretation. He said "it" should not be celebrated- I assumed he meant Caitlyn Jenner's public declarations of her identity as a woman. He's free to correct that assumption if he likes. He also made harsh conclusions condemning her motivations, and he's so sure of those conclusions that he referred to her as "absolutely disgusting," suggesting that he has some insight into those motivations. He's free to correct that too if he likes.

But if both of those things are true, my post is accurate I (and MANY other people) think this celebration/acceptance will save lives. But he says we shouldn't celebrate it. Thus the only possible conclusions are (1) he disagrees that this celebration/acceptance will in fact save lives (a position I'd like to hear him defend) or (2) he doesn't think saving those lives are worth public acclaim for someone whose character he judges to be poor.
I know you think you're taking the high ground, but this response just made my point.
What part of my post is wrong or unfair?

I know Bruce went on his little rant there about inferences because he loves ranting, but often times "inferences" are just reasonable and in fact necessary aspects of communication. When someone uses the word "it" the reader has to infer what they're referring to- mine was the common sense sense inference and almost certainly the correct one. If not the problem is the writer's lack of clarity, not my reading comprehension. And when someone passes harsh judgment on someone's character it's reasonable to infer that they have a basis for that judgment. If not the problem is the writer professing knowledge without a basis, not my reasonable and logical assumption that the writer has a basis.

So again - what part is wrong? I know (or at least I hope) Todem would prefer that we save those lives. I think that's obvious. I'm simply pointing out that the thing he didn't want to happen probably saved lives, so why exactly didn't he want it to happen, even if he doesn't like the person at the center of it?

 
I am a moderate by nature and actually quite liberal on certain topics and conservative on others., but liberals are in full on attack mode on anything they disagree with you about.
I'm pretty liberal across the board, but have noticed this trend lately too. A lot of it in this thread.

 
I'm very careful to use the poster's own words when I do this, because I hate when people do it to me and get it wrong. And I invited Todem to correct my interpretation. He said "it" should not be celebrated- I assumed he meant Caitlyn Jenner's public declarations of her identity as a woman. He's free to correct that assumption if he likes. He also made harsh conclusions condemning her motivations, and he's so sure of those conclusions that he referred to her as "absolutely disgusting," suggesting that he has some insight into those motivations. He's free to correct that too if he likes.

But if both of those things are true, my post is accurate I (and MANY other people) think this celebration/acceptance will save lives. But he says we shouldn't celebrate it. Thus the only possible conclusions are (1) he disagrees that this celebration/acceptance will in fact save lives (a position I'd like to hear him defend) or (2) he doesn't think saving those lives are worth public acclaim for someone whose character he judges to be poor.
I know you think you're taking the high ground, but this response just made my point.
What part of my post is wrong or unfair?

I know Bruce went on his little rant there about inferences because he loves ranting, but often times "inferences" are just reasonable and in fact necessary aspects of communication. When someone uses the word "it" the reader has to infer what they're referring to- mine was the common sense sense inference and almost certainly the correct one. If not the problem is the writer's lack of clarity, not my reading comprehension. And when someone passes harsh judgment on someone's character it's reasonable to infer that they have a basis for that judgment. If not the problem is the writer professing knowledge without a basis, not my reasonable and logical assumption that the writer has a basis.

So again - what part is wrong? I know (or at least I hope) Todem would prefer that we save those lives. I think that's obvious. I'm simply pointing out that the thing he didn't want to happen probably saved lives, so why exactly didn't he want it to happen, even if he doesn't like the person at the center of it?
Where you say I assumed, I concluded.....

 
Transgender kids commit suicide at a rate infinitely higher than any other group. They do it because they live in a world that hates them.

Those opposed to Jenner have to either completely ignore this, or know it but just not care.

The only way to change this is the change the world, because it's the hate in the world towards these people that motivates them to end their presence in this world.

IMHO, those opposed to Jenner feel threatened. And they should, because the last thing they want to do is let some "freak" like Jenner change who and what they are... and the fact is, who and what they are is the source of the hate that motivates these kids to kill themselves.
Hate is not the right word. Never has been. It's a word used by the liberals to bash anyone who has a different take. I think a lot of people don't get it, don't embrace it, don't necessarily accept, and surely don't welcome it with open arms, but hate is not what it is. I can think a person is weird, but I don't hate them for it. 100% NOT the same.
When these kids kill themselves because they feel hated, do you really think it matters that you would use a different word to describe the world you and others create around them?
You're changing the context of your post. Before it was because they were hated. Now it's because you say they perceive that they're hated. I know perception can be reality, but there's a very definitive line there that you seem intent on blaming folks for crossing when they're not.

Outwardly hating a person I hope we all can agree is wrong and should be subject to scorn. But thinking someone is weird or abnormal? I don't think that's wrong at all and I don't see any reason whatsoever - NONE - why people who view others this way should be made to feel bad for having those feelings. If they acted on it - sure. But not simply for not accepting/embracing another's abnormality. If someone chooses to kill themself, that's terrible, but that's also natural selection - survival of the fittest - at work. I know that sounds harsh, but it's true.

 
My wife watches the kardashian show, so to some extent I watch it too although I usually just pay attention to when they're in bikinis or underwear, but I digress. I always saw Bruce/Caitlyn as a guy who married into the attention whoring family. Sure, some of it rubbed off on him as it would anyone but he seems like a halfway decent dude/chick, who most of the time just wanted to be left alone to work on his model planes. This is in contrast to the women of the show who for the most part are all incredibly fake.

 
Why did everyone seemingly agree that Jenner was a part of a family of attention whores who the majority of this board strongly disliked, but after he came out as Caitlyn, any negative connotation towards him is because he's transgender?
Great posting. I didn't care if he was transgender...great whatever makes you happy. Who are we to tell him how to live his life. I give him props for doing what he felt was right. What sickens me is the fact that through gross negligence his actions killed an innocent person. The media coverage of that whole event just made it sound like he was just in an accident where someone happened to die yet the video shows a completely different story. His actions since the accident in which he caused are far from courageous.

 

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