What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Fatal Midair collision between American Airlines jet and Army Helicopter (1 Viewer)

The Senate added more routes into Reagan National last year. The only 4 to vote against it were the Maryland and Virginia senators, because they heeded warnings the airport was already overcrowded (and presumably can drive home from Capitol Hill, rather than fly out of DCA)

I always feel like that place is an accident waiting to happen. My kid flies out of there to get back and forth to college but I think I’m not doing that anymore
To close DCA they really need to finish the metro line to Dulles. Is that done yet?
I would bet no way in hell they close DCA metro line or not. That's a huge chunk of time in and out of DC to waste getting to IAD.
Oh, I'm sure you're right. I like DCA. Getting to IAD is pretty brutal from DC proper (at least it used to be), though a metro line makes it way less cumbersome.
 
The Senate added more routes into Reagan National last year. The only 4 to vote against it were the Maryland and Virginia senators, because they heeded warnings the airport was already overcrowded (and presumably can drive home from Capitol Hill, rather than fly out of DCA)

I always feel like that place is an accident waiting to happen. My kid flies out of there to get back and forth to college but I think I’m not doing that anymore
To close DCA they really need to finish the metro line to Dulles. Is that done yet?
I would bet no way in hell they close DCA metro line or not. That's a huge chunk of time in and out of DC to waste getting to IAD.
Oh, I'm sure you're right. I like DCA. Getting to IAD is pretty brutal from DC proper (at least it used to be), though a metro line makes it way less cumbersome.
Yes, the Metro to IAD is done.
 
Collision Technology for sure on the Blackhawk, plane had its lights on and was lit up pretty well for it's normal approach to the runway
-CEO for AA did say it was out of the norm for a helicopter to be traveling thru that exact area where the planes approach and land

I don't think it will take long to determine this falls on the helicopter and the Army. (I'm wrong) 8-12 months being reported for the investigation timeline...
The family of the victims is where the focus needs to be, and that's what the AA CEO said as well.
There's none of this that is going to look good on the helo pilot.

The AA pilot looks in the clear.

ATC takes a small hit in that they gave a late runway change to the CRJ, so the helo may have been expecting traffic to the other runway and watching.

VAS has updated with more comms off PAT25.

 
My nephew is a pilot for American. I fly there all the time for work and he would tell me how much he hates that airport specifically for this reason. Said there is just too much traffic at all times. Was chilling to hear about this last night and think about what he had said. Hopefully there are changes.
 
i have had to fly in and out of national a lot but it has been a while midwest express used to be the best airline in the world based out of milwaukee the entire aircraft was first class and it went into the old terminal which only has like 10 gates so by the time you go to the baggage claim your bag was waiting for you and it is old school so when you walk in and out of the old terminal it sort of feels about the same as it did 30 years ago anyhow we would always joke that you got a lot of navy landings there instead of air force landings because the approach was weird and the runway was short we called a navy landing one where the pilot sort of slammed the plane down like he was trying to catch a tailhook versus an air force landing that was nice and smooth anyhow that is the swc national story my heart goes out to all lost and what a tragedy take that to the bank bromigos
 
I think he had the wrong aircraft in sight

The runway change was before the acknowledgement of chopper. The new runway is just past the original so not much of a flight path change. I unfortunately think this was just a pilot error unfortunately
 
My nephew is a pilot for American. I fly there all the time for work and he would tell me how much he hates that airport specifically for this reason. Said there is just too much traffic at all times. Was chilling to hear about this last night and think about what he had said. Hopefully there are changes.
Yeah...and heads should roll. No need to be doing military training anywhere near where planes land and takeoff.
 
My nephew is a pilot for American. I fly there all the time for work and he would tell me how much he hates that airport specifically for this reason. Said there is just too much traffic at all times. Was chilling to hear about this last night and think about what he had said. Hopefully there are changes.
Yeah...and heads should roll. No need to be doing military training anywhere near where planes land and takeoff.

This is the point where we remind people that outside of combat flights all flights are training.
 
I thought these planes had collision avoidance systems that would automatically take control. I guess those get shut off on the final approach.

I suspect you'll frequently see go arounds at this airport until the helicopters get removed from the area.
 
My nephew is a pilot for American. I fly there all the time for work and he would tell me how much he hates that airport specifically for this reason. Said there is just too much traffic at all times. Was chilling to hear about this last night and think about what he had said. Hopefully there are changes.
Yeah...and heads should roll. No need to be doing military training anywhere near where planes land and takeoff.

This is the point where we remind people that outside of combat flights all flights are training.
Not all. In the DC area in particular, often ferrying military VIPs.
 
My nephew is a pilot for American. I fly there all the time for work and he would tell me how much he hates that airport specifically for this reason. Said there is just too much traffic at all times. Was chilling to hear about this last night and think about what he had said. Hopefully there are changes.
Yeah...and heads should roll. No need to be doing military training anywhere near where planes land and takeoff.

This is the point where we remind people that outside of combat flights all flights are training.
Not all. In the DC area in particular, often ferrying military VIPs.

Again, those aren't combat flights and are classifed as training. This is going to cause all sorts of hand wringing and misinformation though.
 
One thing to keep in mind is we are commenting and posting real time as facts are coming in which will change and our opinions.

I read that the military pilots were wearing night vision goggles? Seems odd to me. I've spent COUNTLESS hours training with night vision goggles. Driving Humvees and in fox holes. You can see a small lit cigarette hundreds of yards away light up like a spotlight. Driving in blackout with night vision you see everything. To have them on and not see an airplane coming at you? It would light the sky up. My gut and opinion thinks this part of the story will turn out to be inaccurate. Imo
 
I think he had the wrong aircraft in sight

The runway change was before the acknowledgement of chopper. The new runway is just past the original so not much of a flight path change. I unfortunately think this was just a pilot error unfortunately
:goodposting:

I watched some ATC maps during the time period of the crash, and it looked like 95% of the traffic was using runway 1, and only the CRJ seemed to be heading to 33. If it was also a late diversion to 33, that would really highlight that the helo pilot just wasn't aware of what was going on.
 
One thing to keep in mind is we are commenting and posting real time as facts are coming in which will change and our opinions.

I read that the military pilots were wearing night vision goggles? Seems odd to me. I've spent COUNTLESS hours training with night vision goggles. Driving Humvees and in fox holes. You can see a small lit cigarette hundreds of yards away light up like a spotlight. Driving in blackout with night vision you see everything. To have them on and not see an airplane coming at you? It would light the sky up. My gut and opinion thinks this part of the story will turn out to be inaccurate. Imo

More misinformation. You can see in the video the blackhawk had their lights on. Where the thought was it was blacked out came from was just more poorly fact checked MSM garbage.
 
I thought these planes had collision avoidance systems that would automatically take control. I guess those get shut off on the final approach.

I suspect you'll frequently see go arounds at this airport until the helicopters get removed from the area.
Someone aviation industry expert interviewed on CNN mentioned that the collision avoidance system doesn’t operate under 1,000 feet.
 
One thing to keep in mind is we are commenting and posting real time as facts are coming in which will change and our opinions.

I read that the military pilots were wearing night vision goggles? Seems odd to me. I've spent COUNTLESS hours training with night vision goggles. Driving Humvees and in fox holes. You can see a small lit cigarette hundreds of yards away light up like a spotlight. Driving in blackout with night vision you see everything. To have them on and not see an airplane coming at you? It would light the sky up. My gut and opinion thinks this part of the story will turn out to be inaccurate. Imo
How often did you fly in helicopters? The helo was still gaining altitude which means that the tail would be up and the forward part pointed down, furthermore 90% of the time helo's are more concerned with what is below them (wires, structures) etc that their main focus is never above them. This is a sad situation and tragic accident :sadbanana:
 
One thing to keep in mind is we are commenting and posting real time as facts are coming in which will change and our opinions.

I read that the military pilots were wearing night vision goggles? Seems odd to me. I've spent COUNTLESS hours training with night vision goggles. Driving Humvees and in fox holes. You can see a small lit cigarette hundreds of yards away light up like a spotlight. Driving in blackout with night vision you see everything. To have them on and not see an airplane coming at you? It would light the sky up. My gut and opinion thinks this part of the story will turn out to be inaccurate. Imo
How often did you fly in helicopters? The helo was still gaining altitude which means that the tail would be up and the forward part pointed down, furthermore 90% of the time helo's are more concerned with what is below them (wires, structures) etc that their main focus is never above them. This is a sad situation and tragic accident :sadbanana:
Zero times flying a helicopter with night vision goggles on. My testimony through message boards comments is to the efficiency in the goggles not to pass any judgement or push a narrative. For me, it's really to early to really make any final opinions. We are in a fact gathering stage of this tragedy. I'm just still in shock something like this could happen in 2025.

All gave some. Some gave all.
 
My wife's ex-husband witnessed the crash from point blank range. He was on the flight right behind the AA flight and was just about to land. He saw the giant fireball, and the pilot immediately swerved and climbed to avoid it. They landed at another airport. That's his second uber close call flying. He was booked on one of the 9/11 flights out of Boston but got there early and took an earlier flight. IIRC, he was the only person that switched off any of the Boston flights. Talk about having a guardian angel.
Real life Final Destination stuff. If I was him I'd just start walking everywhere, damn.
Yeah, pretty sure I would never fly again.
 
I thought these planes had collision avoidance systems that would automatically take control. I guess those get shut off on the final approach.

I suspect you'll frequently see go arounds at this airport until the helicopters get removed from the area.
Someone aviation industry expert interviewed on CNN mentioned that the collision avoidance system doesn’t operate under 1,000 feet.
Not going into too much detail but airspace around terminals are set up in a varying ways where you have type 1, type 2 and all these setups are configured for certain alerts. It's certain altitude and certain conditions to try and streamline proper alerts, etc. atc atc was signaled an alert
 
For what it's worth, once all the black boxes and data are collected, they will go through a rigorous reproduction to identify exactly what and where things went wrong
 
My nephew is a pilot for American. I fly there all the time for work and he would tell me how much he hates that airport specifically for this reason. Said there is just too much traffic at all times. Was chilling to hear about this last night and think about what he had said. Hopefully there are changes.
Yeah...and heads should roll. No need to be doing military training anywhere near where planes land and takeoff.

This is the point where we remind people that outside of combat flights all flights are training.
Not all. In the DC area in particular, often ferrying military VIPs.

Again, those aren't combat flights and are classifed as training. This is going to cause all sorts of hand wringing and misinformation though.
Hegseth said that they were doing “annual proficiency training flight” for night flying. There has been a lot of misinformation, but I’m not sure the use of the term training flight is causing it, unless I’m missing something.

 
My buddy Flew F18s for 20 years and now is a commercial pilot for a major airline. Here is what he said in a group chat this morning.


Friend 1: sounds like it was the helicopters fault.

Pilot friend:
Sounds like it, I would also put some on the Air Traffic controller for not clearing the flight path and advising the airliner of the traffic on final. They called the helo and asked if they had the CRJ in sight but never told the CRJ about the helo. They probably never saw the helo before they hit it. It is the helo’s responsibility to avoid the aircraft. I’ve flown into that airport many times and it is very restrictive. Should never have happened.
 
My buddy Flew F18s for 20 years and now is a commercial pilot for a major airline. Here is what he said in a group chat this morning.


Friend 1: sounds like it was the helicopters fault.

Pilot friend:
Sounds like it, I would also put some on the Air Traffic controller for not clearing the flight path and advising the airliner of the traffic on final. They called the helo and asked if they had the CRJ in sight but never told the CRJ about the helo. They probably never saw the helo before they hit it. It is the helo’s responsibility to avoid the aircraft. I’ve flown into that airport many times and it is very restrictive. Should never have happened.

That flight path should be clear of helicopters at all times.
 
Just watched the long version of the video that actually shows the chopper taking off on a clear night.

The plane with bright landing lights on is right in the line of sight of the chopper for what seems like well over a minute. The chopper just continues in a straight line toward the plane and t-bones it. One tiny deviation and this is avoided.
 
My buddy Flew F18s for 20 years and now is a commercial pilot for a major airline. Here is what he said in a group chat this morning.


Friend 1: sounds like it was the helicopters fault.

Pilot friend:
Sounds like it, I would also put some on the Air Traffic controller for not clearing the flight path and advising the airliner of the traffic on final. They called the helo and asked if they had the CRJ in sight but never told the CRJ about the helo. They probably never saw the helo before they hit it. It is the helo’s responsibility to avoid the aircraft. I’ve flown into that airport many times and it is very restrictive. Should never have happened.

That flight path should be clear of helicopters at all times.

I think that's good in theory, but in reality, it's probably almost impossible. Marine One is hangered directly across the Potomac, like 5,000 feet away. There's just too much going on in that area to justify not allowing helicopters to fly nearby. I honestly think it'd be easier to build a new DC-serving airport further out.
 
I think that's good in theory, but in reality, it's probably almost impossible. Marine One is hangered directly across the Potomac, like 5,000 feet away. There's just too much going on in that area to justify not allowing helicopters to fly nearby. I honestly think it'd be easier to build a new DC-serving airport further out.

i'm guessing one of the outcomes is a different airspace strategy for the entire region

My pilot buddy said those runways are relatively short and it can get "sporty" landing a plane at that airport.
 
My buddy Flew F18s for 20 years and now is a commercial pilot for a major airline. Here is what he said in a group chat this morning.


Friend 1: sounds like it was the helicopters fault.

Pilot friend:
Sounds like it, I would also put some on the Air Traffic controller for not clearing the flight path and advising the airliner of the traffic on final. They called the helo and asked if they had the CRJ in sight but never told the CRJ about the helo. They probably never saw the helo before they hit it. It is the helo’s responsibility to avoid the aircraft. I’ve flown into that airport many times and it is very restrictive. Should never have happened.

That flight path should be clear of helicopters at all times.

I think that's good in theory, but in reality, it's probably almost impossible. Marine One is hangered directly across the Potomac, like 5,000 feet away. There's just too much going on in that area to justify not allowing helicopters to fly nearby. I honestly think it'd be easier to build a new DC-serving airport further out.
Probably not an option, but give it to the military for a base and build a new airport. I realize land and noise is a huge issue. Maybe one of the parks/preserves to the west.
 
Just watched the long version of the video that actually shows the chopper taking off on a clear night.

The plane with bright landing lights on is right in the line of sight of the chopper for what seems like well over a minute. The chopper just continues in a straight line toward the plane and t-bones it. One tiny deviation and this is avoided.
This is what I don't understand. I worked for a medical helicopter organization for 12 years and have a number of NVG flights. I can't fathom them not seeing the incoming jet. The lights on the jet would make it very easy to see, no matter how far above the helicopter it was. I never sat up front in a black hawk, so I can't say I know for sure, but I have been in the back of one and don't remember visibility to be any smaller than our EC145s.

Couldn't believe what I saw while watching that video... maybe they didn't have NVGs on (which would be highly unusual) or maybe they weren't paying any attention (which would be insane given their flight path).
 
The Senate added more routes into Reagan National last year. The only 4 to vote against it were the Maryland and Virginia senators, because they heeded warnings the airport was already overcrowded (and presumably can drive home from Capitol Hill, rather than fly out of DCA)

I always feel like that place is an accident waiting to happen. My kid flies out of there to get back and forth to college but I think I’m not doing that anymore

I know nothing about aviation, but why does the senate have any say in how many routes there are into an airport?
 
The Senate added more routes into Reagan National last year. The only 4 to vote against it were the Maryland and Virginia senators, because they heeded warnings the airport was already overcrowded (and presumably can drive home from Capitol Hill, rather than fly out of DCA)

I always feel like that place is an accident waiting to happen. My kid flies out of there to get back and forth to college but I think I’m not doing that anymore

I know nothing about aviation, but why does the senate have any say in how many routes there are into an airport?
From Wikipedia:

In 1987 Congress, through legislation, transferred control of the airport from the FAA to the new Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority with the Authority's decisions being subject to a Congressional review panel.
 
The Senate added more routes into Reagan National last year. The only 4 to vote against it were the Maryland and Virginia senators, because they heeded warnings the airport was already overcrowded (and presumably can drive home from Capitol Hill, rather than fly out of DCA)

I always feel like that place is an accident waiting to happen. My kid flies out of there to get back and forth to college but I think I’m not doing that anymore

I know nothing about aviation, but why does the senate have any say in how many routes there are into an airport?
Probably because they want a short commute from their flight in from Bozeman.
 
Sounding like this will fall more on the ATC, but also a bit on the Helo crew. ATC allowed them to be in that airspace and deconflict visually. ATC did not have to approve that flight pattern. ATC wasn't specific on where the deconfliction needed to take place, so that may have caused confusion. Helo crew thought they were clear and didn't keep their head on a swivel while in condensed airspace. Ultimately both should have had more concise communication and visually verified what they were being told.
 
Pilot, Co-Pilot plus a spotter on board the Blackhawk, how did they not see a commercial airplane coming?
3 soldiers were on board the Blackhawk, not to mention how busy this area is they were flying over
This is just awful
My question is why are they conducting exercises in such a populated area? Train out in the desert somewhere.
Such a senseless tragedy.
 
Pilot, Co-Pilot plus a spotter on board the Blackhawk, how did they not see a commercial airplane coming?
3 soldiers were on board the Blackhawk, not to mention how busy this area is they were flying over
This is just awful
My question is why are they conducting exercises in such a populated area? Train out in the desert somewhere.
Such a senseless tragedy.
The job of those helicopters is literally to fly high-ranking government officials in that area, sometimes at night. I think you have to practice in those conditions some time

But it does raise the broader question as to whether they should continue to fly high-ranking government officials in that area at night. Other than at the height of rush hour, they can get anywhere they're taking a chopper to with a police motorcade in 15 minutes at most
 
Reading reports that a lot of young kids from skating clubs in Northern Virginia and Boston that were on the flight. 😢

 
Last edited:
Sounding like this will fall more on the ATC, but also a bit on the Helo crew. ATC allowed them to be in that airspace and deconflict visually. ATC did not have to approve that flight pattern. ATC wasn't specific on where the deconfliction needed to take place, so that may have caused confusion. Helo crew thought they were clear and didn't keep their head on a swivel while in condensed airspace. Ultimately both should have had more concise communication and visually verified what they were being told.
Spoke this morning with a co-worker who is a retired Navy helo pilot. He flew in that DC / Reagan space for years and years. With all the usual caveats that this is sad, human life was lost, etc my colleague was adamant that the helo was flying higher than it should for that route, that it was absolutely the helo pilot’s responsibility and mistake, unless ATC specifically told him/her to be at that altitude in that space.

This guy is all business, no-nonsense. He loves the military and everything about the helo world. He was pretty shaken up about the whole thing but also very clinical. Sounded like he spent 2-3 hours exploring this today.

(Aside: he works on my team….in my mind I was like, dude, don’t you have stuff to do instead? And then I realized how much I post on FBGs)
 
Sounding like this will fall more on the ATC, but also a bit on the Helo crew. ATC allowed them to be in that airspace and deconflict visually. ATC did not have to approve that flight pattern. ATC wasn't specific on where the deconfliction needed to take place, so that may have caused confusion. Helo crew thought they were clear and didn't keep their head on a swivel while in condensed airspace. Ultimately both should have had more concise communication and visually verified what they were being told.
Spoke this morning with a co-worker who is a retired Navy helo pilot. He flew in that DC / Reagan space for years and years. With all the usual caveats that this is sad, human life was lost, etc my colleague was adamant that the helo was flying higher than it should for that route, that it was absolutely the helo pilot’s responsibility and mistake, unless ATC specifically told him/her to be at that altitude in that space.

This guy is all business, no-nonsense. He loves the military and everything about the helo world. He was pretty shaken up about the whole thing but also very clinical. Sounded like he spent 2-3 hours exploring this today.

(Aside: he works on my team….in my mind I was like, dude, don’t you have stuff to do instead? And then I realized how much I post on FBGs)
Yes, heard the same thing on the tv. The helo was supposed to be at 200 ft, but was at 350 feet. Also heard that they may have been on a NVG training mission, however, having NVG on at the time in an urban airport setting could have seriously diminished their situational awareness level due to all the light pollution.
 
Sounding like this will fall more on the ATC, but also a bit on the Helo crew. ATC allowed them to be in that airspace and deconflict visually. ATC did not have to approve that flight pattern. ATC wasn't specific on where the deconfliction needed to take place, so that may have caused confusion. Helo crew thought they were clear and didn't keep their head on a swivel while in condensed airspace. Ultimately both should have had more concise communication and visually verified what they were being told.
Spoke this morning with a co-worker who is a retired Navy helo pilot. He flew in that DC / Reagan space for years and years. With all the usual caveats that this is sad, human life was lost, etc my colleague was adamant that the helo was flying higher than it should for that route, that it was absolutely the helo pilot’s responsibility and mistake, unless ATC specifically told him/her to be at that altitude in that space.

This guy is all business, no-nonsense. He loves the military and everything about the helo world. He was pretty shaken up about the whole thing but also very clinical. Sounded like he spent 2-3 hours exploring this today.

(Aside: he works on my team….in my mind I was like, dude, don’t you have stuff to do instead? And then I realized how much I post on FBGs)
Yes, heard the same thing on the tv. The helo was supposed to be at 200 ft, but was at 350 feet. Also heard that they may have been on a NVG training mission, however, having NVG on at the time in an urban airport setting could have seriously diminished their situational awareness level due to all the light pollution.
Ah interesting, thx. I haven’t had time to read or listen to anything on this, so all my info is either the FFA or my coworker…..
 
Seems like the summary as of now is:
  1. PAT25 (Helicopter) was performing night operations near DCA and was in contact with the tower
  2. JIA5342 (Impacted aircraft) was inbound for 1, but switched to 33 while on final.
  3. PAT25 was given instructions to visually separate for traffic
  4. AAL3130 was in the line of sight of PAT25 but much further away than JIA5342
  5. ATC was not super clear on what traffic, what runway, or heading the traffic was on to PAT25 relying on visual separation.
  6. PAT25 was on a route which max altitude was 200 feet placing it under the flight ops of DCA.
  7. In 15s prior to the incident climbed 150 ft. going up to 350ft and turned.

Best guess here is PAT25 being told to maintain visual separation with an aircraft (but not given precisely what to look for) saw AAL3130 and was moving under VFR to avoid it, putting it straight in the path of JIA5342.
 
Seems like the summary as of now is:
  1. PAT25 (Helicopter) was performing night operations near DCA and was in contact with the tower
  2. JIA5342 (Impacted aircraft) was inbound for 1, but switched to 33 while on final.
  3. PAT25 was given instructions to visually separate for traffic
  4. AAL3130 was in the line of sight of PAT25 but much further away than JIA5342
  5. ATC was not super clear on what traffic, what runway, or heading the traffic was on to PAT25 relying on visual separation.
  6. PAT25 was on a route which max altitude was 200 feet placing it under the flight ops of DCA.
  7. In 15s prior to the incident climbed 150 ft. going up to 350ft and turned.

Best guess here is PAT25 being told to maintain visual separation with an aircraft (but not given precisely what to look for) saw AAL3130 and was moving under VFR to avoid it, putting it straight in the path of JIA5342.
This is as close to what I've been able to piece together listening to the talking heads on MSM. (y)
 
no clue on the accuracy of this, it was a video from one of the national news stations that i saw on the corporate internet page this morning... but to sum up what i heard the person said essentially

the helicopter was a training/test flight, totally normal stuff that they do regularly. according to the (i think it was MSNBC? maybe just NBC) talking head reporting the news (one of their long tenured reporters based in D.C.) the military has the helicopter pilots fly straight down the river path as part of their training, in the dark, in D.C., in part because of the complexity of the scenario. the city lights, the airport traffic, etc. all make for a good technical flight practice, i guess.


accidents happen. it's unfortunate.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top