"FBG Commish Ruling" on Mon Nite - Our .02 (1 Viewer)

[tdoss]

Literally your Scenario A makes sense.  Fantasy wise it does not.  Basically you're saying there are never any Defensive TDs, ever.  Once the Defense has possession of the ball, they become the Offense.Each league needs to interpret this themselves.  Personally, the guy in my league drafted the Tampa D and ST.  That 'position' was not on the field at the time of the play and therefore does not get credit for the TD.You have to look at the NFL rule differently for this particular play.

Scenario A doesn't have to make sense fantasy-wise. Either you subscribe to the scenario A theory, or the scenario B theory. Personally, I subscribe to the scenario B theory. But, if you subscribe to the scenario A theory, then you are correct, there should never be any defensive TDs awarded.Of course, it seems as if quite a few people here subscribe to the Scenario C theory, which apparently states, "teams change from 'offense' to 'defense' upon all changes of possession prior to the last change of possession, but not the last change of possession, of a given play". That is the only scenario under which Tampa's defense can be awarded a TD here. Personally, I don't subscribe to this theory, so TB's defense gets no TD in any of my leagues.FLM has scored it this way as well - no defensive TD for Tampa's D, Fumble Recovery TD for McCardell, 7 points scored against Indy's defense.

You are right on.....See the guys here are taking that rule that everyone is posting, and comprehending it the way they want it to go........In other words the guys that are saying yes, the offense changes to defense and vice versa this play, are only taking the parts of the rule they want to hear.Case in point they all point to this part But conviently leave out this part Then they say that's the way it should be, but if they followed thier part to the letter, instead of just taking the part they want, then in fact, the DEF could never score a TD.You can't have it both ways. In my league I scored it the correct way, a TD for McCardell. No rushing yds.

Forget the change of possession ruling...you guys are getting hung up on the wrong thing.The NFL rules any and all fumble returns for TD as a defensive team stat.That pretty much should be the end all solution to this...what does the NFL rule it as? Who'd know better than NFL? It's their league...

 

[RCon]

Forget the change of possession ruling...you guys are getting hung up on the wrong thing.The NFL rules any and all fumble returns for TD as a defensive team stat.That pretty much should be the end all solution to this...what does the NFL rule it as? Who'd know better than NFL? It's their league...

The NFL does not rule any and all fumble returns for TD as a defensive team stat. I'm pretty sure the Holy Roller wasn't counted as a defensive TD for the Raiders.

 

[tdoss]

Forget the change of possession ruling...you guys are getting hung up on the wrong thing.The NFL rules any and all fumble returns for TD as a defensive team stat.That pretty much should be the end all solution to this...what does the NFL rule it as? Who'd know better than NFL? It's their league...

The NFL does not rule any and all fumble returns for TD as a defensive team stat. I'm pretty sure the Holy Roller wasn't counted as a defensive TD for the Raiders.

Really...why not?

 

[WadeGarrett22]

That pretty much should be the end all solution to this...what does the NFL rule it as? Who'd know better than NFL? It's their league...

Exactly...it's THEIR league with THEIR rules.I have MY league with MY/OUR rules.We vote on issues like this. Majority rules. Tie vote goes to a neutral third party.

 

[RCon]

Forget the change of possession ruling...you guys are getting hung up on the wrong thing.The NFL rules any and all fumble returns for TD as a defensive team stat.That pretty much should be the end all solution to this...what does the NFL rule it as?  Who'd know better than NFL?  It's their league...

The NFL does not rule any and all fumble returns for TD as a defensive team stat. I'm pretty sure the Holy Roller wasn't counted as a defensive TD for the Raiders.

Really...why not?

So if a RB fumbles, and his offensive lineman falls on it in the endzone, it's a defensive TD?

 

[tdoss]

Forget the change of possession ruling...you guys are getting hung up on the wrong thing.The NFL rules any and all fumble returns for TD as a defensive team stat.That pretty much should be the end all solution to this...what does the NFL rule it as?  Who'd know better than NFL?  It's their league...

The NFL does not rule any and all fumble returns for TD as a defensive team stat. I'm pretty sure the Holy Roller wasn't counted as a defensive TD for the Raiders.

Really...why not?

So if a RB fumbles, and his offensive lineman falls on it in the endzone, it's a defensive TD?

That's a Fumble Recovery...not fumble return.Case in point...JLewis (Bal) fumbled a couple weeks ago...his fullback ARicards (Bal) picks the ball up and runs it in for a TD...how do you think NFL scored it? There was no change of possession...so where did they put that TD?Defensive TD...Fumble Return for TD...Go check ARicards stats for this year...you'll see no TD's listed for him...because it went under Baltimore's Team Defensive stats...I'm not saying it's right or makes sense...I'm just saying...the NFL should be the ruling factor in the end...and what they do should be law. You may not agree with the "leaping" call or the "tuck" rule or whatever the case may be...but in the end...it's the NFL's call...

 

[Gringoloco]

Sorry...but you're wrong...They do in fact list it on that very link that you posted...Look under "Team Stats"It says, "TOUCHDOWNS"And under that it lists them individually by category, "(Rushing-Passing-Returns-Defensive)"And it shows 2 (two) Defensive TD's.

No, I explained that earlier. Since TD's are limited to rushing, receiving or DEF, they made the decision to list it under DEF.My point was that it lists all the defensive stats for all the players, but does not include McCardell's numbers there. If he was a defensive player, if only for that playm, they would have listed his name there along with his fumble stat.As I've also stated, NFL.com seems at the very least inconclusive in the way they list and record this.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I honestly don't understand the debate here. It is simple. Either you believe that teams change from "offense" to "defense" upon a change of possession, or you believe that the team that starts a play on "offense" stays on "offense" until the conclusion of the play, right? So let's examine both of these possibilities.

A) teams change from "offense" to "defense" upon a change of possession

If you believe this, then when Ind. made the INT, it became the "offense" and TB became the "defense". Ind. defense is credited with an INT, TB's QB is charged with an INT. With me so far? Now, Ind.'s Offense fumbles the ball (and should be charged with a lost fumble, but this doesn't matter unless you use IDP, in which case you might charge Doss with a lost fumble), and TB's Defense recovers. You would award TB's defense with a fumble recovery. Now, TB becomes the offense again, and Ind. becomes the defense again. TB's offense scores. No defensive TD for TB.

B) the team that starts a play on "offense" stays on "offense" until the conclusion of the play

This one is even simpler, and doesn't really require an explanation. TB's offense gets credited with an INT, a fumble recovery, and a TD. End of discussion, if you believe the premise here.

Important: in either case, you cannot credit TB's defense or special teams with a touchdown. How it can be ruled any other way is beyond me.

Well argued. But "Scenario C" from your next post is an important addendum:

Of course, it seems as if quite a few people here subscribe to the Scenario C theory, which apparently states, "teams change from 'offense' to 'defense' upon all changes of possession prior to the last change of possession, but not the last change of possession, of a given play".

That's what makes the most sense to me, although I'd have phrased it differently. Any time a return follows a turnover, the "defensive" team who created the turnover gets credit.

 

[Goose]

I ask you again...Then why does NFL.com show KMcCardell with 3 Receiving Offensive TD's and 1 Defensive TD?

Maybe they didn't want to update their website to account for a fluke.

 

[tdoss]

Sorry...but you're wrong...They do in fact list it on that very link that you posted...Look under "Team Stats"It says, "TOUCHDOWNS"And under that it lists them individually by category, "(Rushing-Passing-Returns-Defensive)"And it shows 2 (two) Defensive TD's.

No, I explained that earlier. Since TD's are limited to rushing, receiving or DEF, they made the decision to list it under DEF.My point was that it lists all the defensive stats for all the players, but does not include McCardell's numbers there. If he was a defensive player, if only for that playm, they would have listed his name there along with his fumble stat.As I've also stated, NFL.com seems at the very least inconclusive in the way they list and record this.

And my point is this...The NFL in all of it's wisdom has chosen to list it as a defensive TD...then...really...shouldn't that be the end of the argument?They made the call and it stands.Trust me...they don't do this on a whim...a lot of players contracts are based on performance...Let's say...KMcCardell's is (who knows...doesn't matter)...and his is based on how many TD's he scores for the year...in the end...his final NFL stats will not reflect that defensive TD...We have salaries in our league based on the player's stats...KMcCardell's salary in our league will be based on NFL's final season stats...and that TD will not be a part of his stats per NFL's choice to list it as a defensive stat and not an individual stat...Just look at his Individual Stats right now...it lists 3 Offensive and 1 Defensive for the year...NFL has already made it's decision on that play...

 

[tdoss]

Sorry...but you're wrong...They do in fact list it on that very link that you posted...Look under "Team Stats"It says, "TOUCHDOWNS"And under that it lists them individually by category, "(Rushing-Passing-Returns-Defensive)"And it shows 2 (two) Defensive TD's.

No, I explained that earlier. Since TD's are limited to rushing, receiving or DEF, they made the decision to list it under DEF.My point was that it lists all the defensive stats for all the players, but does not include McCardell's numbers there. If he was a defensive player, if only for that playm, they would have listed his name there along with his fumble stat.As I've also stated, NFL.com seems at the very least inconclusive in the way they list and record this.

Also...they list individual defensive players and their stats...but they also have "Tampa Bay" at the bottom...which includes any stats not already covered by the individual listings...KMcCardell's stats went there...and again...under Team Defensive stats...

 

[tdoss]

I ask you again...Then why does NFL.com show KMcCardell with 3 Receiving Offensive TD's and 1 Defensive TD?

Maybe they didn't want to update their website to account for a fluke.

And what of ARicards...from Baltimore? Look at his stats...no TD's listed for his individual offensive stats...nothing to trigger any bonuses for ARicards when it comes time to renew his contract.However...if you check Baltimore's Defensive stats...they put that TD there...Fluke or not...Fumble Returns for TD's happen every year...and the NFL has chosen to put them under Defensive Team stats and not list them under the offensive player's individuals stats all along...regardless of "change of possession" nonsense that everyone wants to debate...

 

[Cybergeek]

Forget the change of possession ruling...you guys are getting hung up on the wrong thing.The NFL rules any and all fumble returns for TD as a defensive team stat.That pretty much should be the end all solution to this...what does the NFL rule it as?  Who'd know better than NFL?  It's their league...

The NFL does not rule any and all fumble returns for TD as a defensive team stat. I'm pretty sure the Holy Roller wasn't counted as a defensive TD for the Raiders.

Really...why not?

So if a RB fumbles, and his offensive lineman falls on it in the endzone, it's a defensive TD?

That's a Fumble Recovery...not fumble return.Case in point...JLewis (Bal) fumbled a couple weeks ago...his fullback ARicards (Bal) picks the ball up and runs it in for a TD...how do you think NFL scored it? There was no change of possession...so where did they put that TD?Defensive TD...Fumble Return for TD...Go check ARicards stats for this year...you'll see no TD's listed for him...because it went under Baltimore's Team Defensive stats...I'm not saying it's right or makes sense...I'm just saying...the NFL should be the ruling factor in the end...and what they do should be law. You may not agree with the "leaping" call or the "tuck" rule or whatever the case may be...but in the end...it's the NFL's call...

I checked into the Ricard/Baltimore situation. The boxscore said fumble return TD, but the team stats do not show it as a defensive TD. It lists a rushing TD, a receiving TD, but no defensive/misc TD.

 

[RCon]

And my point is this...The NFL in all of it's wisdom has chosen to list it as a defensive TD...then...really...shouldn't that be the end of the argument?They made the call and it stands.Trust me...they don't do this on a whim...a lot of players contracts are based on performance...Let's say...KMcCardell's is (who knows...doesn't matter)...and his is based on how many TD's he scores for the year...in the end...his final NFL stats will not reflect that defensive TD...We have salaries in our league based on the player's stats...KMcCardell's salary in our league will be based on NFL's final season stats...and that TD will not be a part of his stats per NFL's choice to list it as a defensive stat and not an individual stat...Just look at his Individual Stats right now...it lists 3 Offensive and 1 Defensive for the year...NFL has already made it's decision on that play...

You do realize you've contradicted yourself in this post. If...

Just look at his Individual Stats right now...it lists 3 Offensive and 1 Defensive for the year

then how do you get to this:

his final NFL stats will not reflect that defensive TD

 

[davearm]

tdoss --So based on what you're saying, you would be OK with it if your opponent's BAL D/ST had been awarded 6 points the week ARicard toted JLewis' fumble into the endzone, and you lost because of it?

 

[tdoss]

And my point is this...The NFL in all of it's wisdom has chosen to list it as a defensive TD...then...really...shouldn't that be the end of the argument?They made the call and it stands.Trust me...they don't do this on a whim...a lot of players contracts are based on performance...Let's say...KMcCardell's is (who knows...doesn't matter)...and his is based on how many TD's he scores for the year...in the end...his final NFL stats will not reflect that defensive TD...We have salaries in our league based on the player's stats...KMcCardell's salary in our league will be based on NFL's final season stats...and that TD will not be a part of his stats per NFL's choice to list it as a defensive stat and not an individual stat...Just look at his Individual Stats right now...it lists 3 Offensive and 1 Defensive for the year...NFL has already made it's decision on that play...

You do realize you've contradicted yourself in this post. If...then how do you get to this:

His final Offensive stats will not reflect that TD...The only place you can find it being listed...even as a defensive TD is on the leaders page...if you click on his individual stats page...it will only say 3 TD's...

 

[tdoss]

tdoss --So based on what you're saying, you would be OK with it if your opponent's BAL D/ST had been awarded 6 points the week ARicard toted JLewis' fumble into the endzone, and you lost because of it?

Of course not...it sucks...but since the NFL is our ruling faction...who could I argue with?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Of course not...it sucks...but since the NFL is our ruling faction...who could I argue with?

I'm sure I could find some people around here for you to argue with, if you're ever running low.

 

[Goose]

I'm sure I could find some people around here for you to argue with, if you're ever running low.

:rotflmao:

 

[tdoss]

Basically this is the way I see it...Again, we have a salary cap based on each player's season ending stats.KMcCardell will not have that defensive TD listed in his stats...the NFL hasn't listed it that way and it won't be there at year end.So...we have to go by what the NFL has it ruled as...otherwise at the end of the year, we'd have guys debating the player's stats and asking me to go back and count Week Such and Such when Player X did this and did that...it's nonsense...it would be making this way tougher than it needs to be.For our league...we'll just go by NFL stats and call it a day.

 

[Cybergeek]

tdoss --So based on what you're saying, you would be OK with it if your opponent's BAL D/ST had been awarded 6 points the week ARicard toted JLewis' fumble into the endzone, and you lost because of it?

Of course not...it sucks...but since the NFL is our ruling faction...who could I argue with?

The NFL did rule on this and neither Ricard or Baltimore's defense was credited with a touchdown. Check NFL.com's team stats for week three Balt/SD.

 

[tdoss]

They list Ricard's TD under team defensive stats...Look under Team, then Touchdowns, then Fumbles...1 TDThey also show this under Team Defensive Stats:

Final Defensive Statistics Baltimore Ravens Regular Defensive Plays Special Teams Misc --------------------------------------------------------------------------------  TKL AST COMB SACK / YRDS IN PD FF FR    TKL AST FF FR BL    TKL AST FF FR R.Lewis 10 1 11 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 E.Reed 8 0 8 0 0 1 2 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 G.Baxter 7 1 8 0 0 1 3 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 W.Demps 6 1 7 0 0 0 2 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 E.Hartwell 4 3 7 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 K.Gregg 5 1 6 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 M.Douglas 4 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 C.Fuller 4 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 C.Brown 3 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 T.Knight 2 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0    1 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 P.Boulware 1 1 2 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 T.Suggs 1 0 1 1 13 1 1 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 A.Weaver 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 C.Williams 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 A.Thomas 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0    3 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 R.Johnson 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0    1 0 0 0 0    1 0 0 0 O.Mughelli 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0    1 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 Walls.R 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0    1 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 B.Scott 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0    1 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 T.Jones 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0    1 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 A.Ricard 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 1

Sorry if the format is off...but right there...under the column of "TEAM DEFENSIVE STATS" it shows ARicard. Why? He's not a defensive player...however...they list him there because that's where they stick that TD...under Team Defense...Misc...Look at that last column...Fumble Recovery...ARicard...1 FR...Looks pretty clear cut to me...Defense gets the credit...that's the way the NFL has chosen to see it...And again...I don't always agree with the NFL...but they really should be the final say...

 

[davearm]

Obviously Rich's Scenario A is completely without merit, for under it there can never be a defensive TD (since as soon as they take possession, the Defense becomes the Offense). So I dismiss that possibility out of hand.

Rich's Scenario B is certainly a plausible way to view things, but IMO has some serious flaws. If the offense is to remain the offense for the duration of the play, no matter what, then it logically follows that a team that punts or kicks off to begin a play may not get credit for returning a fumbled kick for a score. In that instance, the team receiving the kickoff or punt is the defense for the duration of the play, and comes into possession of the ball no differently than had they intercepted a pass or scooped up a fumble. My own opinion is that if a kickoff or punt is fumbled and returned by the kicking team for a TD, then a D/ST score should be awarded.

I have read all these posts but have yet to see anything mentioned that mirrors my view, which is this: if at any point during the course of a play, a change of possession occurs (via kickoff, punt or turnover), both teams become eligible to score a D/ST touchdown. Further, if a change of possession does not occur, then only the defense is eligible to score a D/ST touchdown.

This simple view of the world handles basically all the hypotheticals out there: the Ricard scenario (D/ST score=NO), the fake FG scenario (D/ST score=NO), and the McCardell scenario (D/ST score=YES).

 

[B-Money]

Yes, Tampa was defending their end zone when Doss had the ball. But the Tampa defense was not on the field. Hence the Tampa defense should not get credit for a TD.Common sense and logic of how we draft/play defenses in fantasy football should rule here. Not semantics and technicalities. This is something that a lot of people are missing.

Common sense should also tell us that this was not an offensive play.

Common sense tells me that the Tampa Bay defensive/special teams unit that I drafted was on the sidelines. Therefore, no Tampa Bay defensive/special teams TD.Far be it for us to leave out common sense and logic from a good argument.

 

[RCon]

tdoss - Are you looking at individual boxscores on NFL.com? I think they are notorious for not going back and updating them to post corrections. If you look at the Ravens total yearly stats, Ricard is not listed underneath the individual defensive category.

 

[tdoss]

Yes, Tampa was defending their end zone when Doss had the ball.  But the Tampa defense was not on the field.  Hence the Tampa defense should not get credit for a TD.Common sense and logic of how we draft/play defenses in fantasy football should rule here.  Not semantics and technicalities.  This is something that a lot of people are missing.

Common sense should also tell us that this was not an offensive play.

Common sense tells me that the Tampa Bay defensive/special teams unit that I drafted was on the sidelines. Therefore, no Tampa Bay defensive/special teams TD.Far be it for us to leave out common sense and logic from a good argument.

Common Sense has no bearing here...Common Sense says that freaking "tuck" crap they called was a fumble...but...the NFL made it's ruling and that's that...The NFL considers this to be a Defensive Team stat...

 

[tdoss]

tdoss - Are you looking at individual boxscores on NFL.com?  I think they are notorious for not going back and updating them to post corrections.  If you look at the Ravens total yearly stats, Ricard is not listed underneath the individual defensive category.

I'm looking at individual players stats...And to back it up I'm looking at the Gamebooks...those are the end all official word...

Ricard's Fumble Return for TD

McCardell's Fumble Return for TD

Indianapolis Colts vs Tampa Bay Buccaneers

10/6/2003 at Raymond James Stadium

Final Defensive Statistics

Indianapolis Colts Regular Defensive Plays Special Teams Misc

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TKL AST COMB SACK / YRDS IN PD FF FR    TKL AST FF FR BL    TKL AST FF FR

D.Thornton 10 5 15 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

M.Doss 7 4 11 0 0 1 2 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

R.Morris 6 4 10 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

M.Washington 7 2 9 0 0 0 1 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

L.Tripplett 5 3 8 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

N.Harper 5 2 7 0 0 0 1 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

R.Brock 2 2 4 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

W.Harris 2 2 4 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

M.Reagor 3 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

D.Macklin 2 0 2 0 0 0 1 0 0    1 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

I.Bashir 0 2 2 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

D.Freeney 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

J.Nelson 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0    1 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

J.Doering 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0    1 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

C.Bratzke 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

C.Crosby 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0    2 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

C.Bird 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0    1 1 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

G.Brackett 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0    1 1 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

M.Pollard 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0    1 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

D.Smith 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 1 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

Total 52 27 79 0 0 1 6 0 0    8 3 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TKL / TK = Tackle AST / AS = Assist COMB = Combined IN = Interception  

PD = Pass Defense FF = Forced Fumble FR = Fumble Recovery BL = Blocked  

Tampa Bay Buccaneers Regular Defensive Plays Special Teams Misc

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TKL AST COMB SACK / YRDS IN PD FF FR    TKL AST FF FR BL    TKL AST FF FR

N.Webster 3 9 12 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

T.Wansley 9 2 11 0 0 0 0 0 0    1 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

J.Lynch 4 6 10 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

R.Barber 7 2 9 0 0 1 1 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

D.Brooks 4 3 7 0 0 0 1 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

W.Sapp 2 3 5 0 0 0 1 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

J.Phillips 3 1 4 0 0 0 0 0 0    1 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

E.Wyms 3 1 4 1 5 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

R.Nece 2 2 4 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

A.McFarland 3 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

S.Rice 3 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

B.Kelly 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

D.Smith 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

G.Spires 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

C.Darby 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

J.Howell 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0    2 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

C.Ivy 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0    2 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

T.Yoder 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0    1 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0

J.Wade 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    1 0 1 0

K.McCardell 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 0 0    0 0 0 1

Total 47 29 76 1 5 1 3 0 0    7 0 0 0 0    1 0 1 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[RCon]

Thanks for the link - I really had no clue what anyone was looking at.Anyway, I don't see your argument. It lists Ricard's TD as Misc., not as defense or special teams. In the team stats, it shows a fumble TD. It doesn't list it as a defensive TD.

 

[tdoss]

Thanks for the link - I really had no clue what anyone was looking at.Anyway, I don't see your argument. It lists Ricard's TD as Misc., not as defense or special teams. In the team stats, it shows a fumble TD. It doesn't list it as a defensive TD.

It says very plainlyFinal Defensive StatsI even bolded it for you to see...and under that heading is KMcCardell and ARicards...whichever one you want to question...both are placed under the Teams Defensive Stats...

 

[Cybergeek]

They list Ricard's TD under team defensive stats...Look under Team, then Touchdowns, then Fumbles...1 TDThey also show this under Team Defensive Stats:Sorry if the format is off...but right there...under the column of "TEAM DEFENSIVE STATS" it shows ARicard. Why? He's not a defensive player...however...they list him there because that's where they stick that TD...under Team Defense...Misc...Look at that last column...Fumble Recovery...ARicard...1 FR...Looks pretty clear cut to me...Defense gets the credit...that's the way the NFL has chosen to see it...And again...I don't always agree with the NFL...but they really should be the final say...

Check Ravens 2003 team stats They credit Baltimore's defense with one TD so far this season. That being Ed Reed's 54 interception return week two. I think you may be too hung up on where these TDs are listed. The NFL has nowhere else to place them, so they are under misc. That does not mean the NFL has ruled them defensive TDs.

 

[RCon]

Thanks for the link - I really had no clue what anyone was looking at.Anyway, I don't see your argument.  It lists Ricard's TD as Misc., not as defense or special teams.  In the team stats, it shows a fumble TD.  It doesn't list it as a defensive TD.

It says very plainlyFinal Defensive StatsI even bolded it for you to see...and under that heading is KMcCardell and ARicards...whichever one you want to question...both are placed under the Teams Defensive Stats...

Actually, I was looking at the Baltimore game, but the same applies here. McCardell's stats are listed under "Misc", not Defensive or Special Teams. I agree that all those are under "Final Defensive Stats", but I believe that's just because "Misc." doesn't really have any other place to go, not because the NFL really considers either of these to be a defensive TD.OK, who volunteers to call the NFL and ask?

 

[tdoss]

Thanks for the link - I really had no clue what anyone was looking at.Anyway, I don't see your argument.  It lists Ricard's TD as Misc., not as defense or special teams.  In the team stats, it shows a fumble TD.  It doesn't list it as a defensive TD.

It says very plainlyFinal Defensive StatsI even bolded it for you to see...and under that heading is KMcCardell and ARicards...whichever one you want to question...both are placed under the Teams Defensive Stats...

Actually, I was looking at the Baltimore game, but the same applies here. McCardell's stats are listed under "Misc", not Defensive or Special Teams. I agree that all those are under "Final Defensive Stats", but I believe that's just because "Misc." doesn't really have any other place to go, not because the NFL really considers either of these to be a defensive TD.

Then why list them under "Team Defensive Stats"?NFL found good enough reason to place it under "Team Defensive Stats" and that's good enough for me.To back that up...they also see fit not to list it under any of the players Offensive Stats...So...to me...that looks like there's been a conscious effort to exclude these types of scores from an individuals offensive stats and include them under the Team's Defensive stats.I could almost see your point if somewhere they listed KMcCardell's TD's as 3 Receiving Offensive TD's and 1 Misc...but they don't...they list him as having 3 Receiving Offensive TD's and 1 Defensive TD.

 

[Cybergeek]

Check Ravens 2003 team stats They credit Baltimore's defense with one TD so far this season. That being Ed Reed's 54 interception return week two. I think you may be too hung up on where these TDs are listed. The NFL has nowhere else to place them, so they are under misc. That does not mean the NFL has ruled them defensive TDs.

 

[tdoss]

Check Ravens 2003 team stats They credit Baltimore's defense with one TD so far this season. That being Ed Reed's 54 interception return week two. I think you may be too hung up on where these TDs are listed. The NFL has nowhere else to place them, so they are under misc. That does not mean the NFL has ruled them defensive TDs.

And Miscellaneous is listed under Team's Defensive Stats...They could've chosen to put that column under the Team's Offensive Stats just the same...but they didn't...they chose Team Defense.

 

[tdoss]

Check Ravens 2003 team stats They credit Baltimore's defense with one TD so far this season. That being Ed Reed's 54 interception return week two. I think you may be too hung up on where these TDs are listed. The NFL has nowhere else to place them, so they are under misc. That does not mean the NFL has ruled them defensive TDs.

Also...wouldn't the "Gamebook" be the stat bible...versus a webpage they have posted for each team's total stats?

 

[B-Money]

Yes, Tampa was defending their end zone when Doss had the ball.  But the Tampa defense was not on the field.  Hence the Tampa defense should not get credit for a TD.Common sense and logic of how we draft/play defenses in fantasy football should rule here.  Not semantics and technicalities.  This is something that a lot of people are missing.

Common sense should also tell us that this was not an offensive play.

Common sense tells me that the Tampa Bay defensive/special teams unit that I drafted was on the sidelines. Therefore, no Tampa Bay defensive/special teams TD.Far be it for us to leave out common sense and logic from a good argument.

Common Sense has no bearing here...Common Sense says that freaking "tuck" crap they called was a fumble...but...the NFL made it's ruling and that's that...The NFL considers this to be a Defensive Team stat...

No, the officials made the "tuck" ruling in the game. It was immediately an incomplete pass instead of a fumble. It was a judgement call by an official watching a replay.Yesterday, Keenan McCardell scored a TD after picking up a fumble. That much is certain. Keenan McCardell and the other 10 Tampa players were playing offense when the ball was snapped. No one can dispute this. The play resulted in a TD for Tampa. Regardless of the change of possession during the play, the same 22 players were on the field for the entire duration of the play. The Tampa Bay defensive unit never came onto the field to score the TD. There is no way it can be classified as a defensive TD.

 

[Goose]

And Miscellaneous is listed under Team's Defensive Stats...They could've chosen to put that column under the Team's Offensive Stats just the same...but they didn't...they chose Team Defense.

Sorry but you're an idiot.NFL.com could have chosen to redesign it's website over night to account for one fluke play ... but they didn't ... so what.

 

[Cybergeek]

And Miscellaneous is listed under Team's Defensive Stats...They could've chosen to put that column under the Team's Offensive Stats just the same...but they didn't...they chose Team Defense.

Check the link that I have provided twice before Ravens 2003 team stats and explain why NFL.com only credits Baltimore with 1 and only 1 defensive touchdown for 2003. That being the previously mentioned Ed Reed 54 yard interception return for a touchdown.

 

[tdoss]

Yes, Tampa was defending their end zone when Doss had the ball.  But the Tampa defense was not on the field.  Hence the Tampa defense should not get credit for a TD.Common sense and logic of how we draft/play defenses in fantasy football should rule here.  Not semantics and technicalities.  This is something that a lot of people are missing.

Common sense should also tell us that this was not an offensive play.

Common sense tells me that the Tampa Bay defensive/special teams unit that I drafted was on the sidelines. Therefore, no Tampa Bay defensive/special teams TD.Far be it for us to leave out common sense and logic from a good argument.

Common Sense has no bearing here...Common Sense says that freaking "tuck" crap they called was a fumble...but...the NFL made it's ruling and that's that...The NFL considers this to be a Defensive Team stat...

No, the officials made the "tuck" ruling in the game. It was immediately an incomplete pass instead of a fumble. It was a judgement call by an official watching a replay.Yesterday, Keenan McCardell scored a TD after picking up a fumble. That much is certain. Keenan McCardell and the other 10 Tampa players were playing offense when the ball was snapped. No one can dispute this. The play resulted in a TD for Tampa. Regardless of the change of possession during the play, the same 22 players were on the field for the entire duration of the play. The Tampa Bay defensive unit never came onto the field to score the TD. There is no way it can be classified as a defensive TD.

Then again...I ask you...why does the NFL list it under Team Defensive Stats?Does your team defense get points for fumbles recovered? Why does TB have that fumble listed under their fumbles recovered count? Would you not count that fumble towards your team defense?Basically, you're making it so tough...you'd have to watch each and every play in the NFL to be sure all your scores are accurate...you'll be spending each week pouring over each play, fumble, td to make sure it's a "legitimate offensive/defensive td"...The NFL has it listed under the Team's Defensive Stats...why shouldn't we?

 

[tdoss]

And Miscellaneous is listed under Team's Defensive Stats...They could've chosen to put that column under the Team's Offensive Stats just the same...but they didn't...they chose Team Defense.

Check the link that I have provided twice before Ravens 2003 team stats and explain why NFL.com only credits Baltimore with 1 and only 1 defensive touchdown for 2003. That being the previously mentioned Ed Reed 54 yard interception return for a touchdown.

And I ask why does the Gamebooks show it under Defense?There's obviously an issue...one is wrong...me...I'll always side with the Gamebooks over a simple summary webpage...

 

[tdoss]

And Miscellaneous is listed under Team's Defensive Stats...They could've chosen to put that column under the Team's Offensive Stats just the same...but they didn't...they chose Team Defense.

Sorry but you're an idiot.NFL.com could have chosen to redesign it's website over night to account for one fluke play ... but they didn't ... so what.

One fluke play?How many times a year do you see a fumble return for a TD?There are many fumble returns for TD's every year...and the NFL puts them under "Team Defensive Stats"...we've had two in question right here in this thread (ARicard and KMcCardell) and both are listed under Team Defensive Stats.

 

[B-Money]

OK, Here's proof that the so called "Gamebook" cannot be taken as the bible on NFL.com.Travis Henry's official stats through 5 weeks are 78 carries for 207 yards, 6 TDs and 0 fumbles.Here are his stats per the Gamebook by week:1 28-86 2TDs 1 fumble2 21-26 3TDs3 5-74 DNP5 25-85 1TDAdd them up if you will. Those stats total 79 carries for 204 yards, 6 TDs and 1 fumble.If you recall, after week 1, the NFL officially adjusted his stats for the week, taking away 1 carry that resulted in negative 3 yards and a fumble.This change is NOT reflected in the Gamebook. They didn't go back and update it to reflect the change. This whole NFL.com is God is for the birds. A weird play happened yesterday. They don't have a way to categorize it, since it was not a rushing TD, a receiving TD, or a defensive TD. It was a fumble return, and was categorized in the misc/def section. That doesn't mean Tampa's defense should get credit for a TD scored for fantasy football purposes.

 

[MrPack]

tdoss,You must need this win pretty bad, and it's pretty obvious you need this ruling to go your way......That my friend, is blinding you to the facts.For the record, I am not involved one way or another with this ruling. My team is not affected, in ANY of my leagues, and it won't change any outcome of any game in the league I commish. I am the commissioner and I did the right thing. I adjusted cbs' ridiculous scoring of this play and gave the McCardell owner his rightful points.

 

[Joe Bryant]

CORRECTED BY BILL DAVIES TO: CHANGE TB defense in Scenario 2 from 1 TD to 0. This was a copy and paste error, not a change in position.

Hey Guys,

One last thing from me on this. (and honestly, I have no dog in this fight. I've got way too much to worry about as it is). Our Commish Guru, Bill Davies sent me this via email and asked that I post it here. You go Bill.

J

/////////////////////

From Bill Davies:

Friends and Subscribers (and recently appointed enemies based on this ruling):

There has been a great deal of debate over this interception fumble for a TD return. (Was that clear?) Everyone knows the play in question – Monday night’s game with the Keenan McCardell fumble return for a TD. My reply earlier created some confusion as I argued to the antithesis to prove the point, and some folks misinterpreted these comments as being the official answer.

Basically, there is only one fact at issue – do offense and defense change when there is a change in possession. My point was when there are two changes in possession (or any even number of changes in possession for that matter, the answer to this question doesn’t matter. In all cases it cannot be a defensive TD for Tampa Bay.

Conventional wisdom in fantasy leagues is that when a team starts a play on offense, the opposing team is on defense. This is how we have things like interception returns and fumble returns for TD.

From the NFL rulebook Rule 3, Section 35, Article 1: “Whenever a team is in possession, it is the Offense and, at such time, its opponent is the Defense.” The rule, along with Rule 3, Section 35, Article 2, states: “The team that puts the ball in play is Team A, and its opponent is Team B. For brevity, a player on Team A is referred to as A1 and his teammates as A2, A3, etc… Opponents are B1, B2, etc…

The rule goes on state through notation: “A team becomes Team A when it has been designated to put ball in play, and it remains Team A until a down ends, even though there might be one or more changes of possession during the down. This is in contrast with the terms Offense and Defense. Team A is the offense when the down starts, but becomes the defense if and when B secures possession during the down, and vice versa for each change of possession.”

We, as fantasy footballers, have rejected this interpretation. If we accepted it, there could never be defensive TDs – by definition. As soon as the defensive team gained possession, it would be the offensive team, by rule. Since these rules are written for officials for a purpose different than fantasy football, we’ve let common sense prevail and we say, “No, the players that started the play on defense are defensive players. If they intercept the ball or recover a fumble and return it for a TD, it is a defensive TD.”

However, let us debate the opposite. Let’s agree, ONLY FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT, that this NFL rule does apply. In this particular case, When the play began, Tampa Bay was on offense and Indianapolis was on defense. When Michael Doss intercepted Brad Johnson’s pass, Indianapolis went on offense and Tampa Bay went on defense, per NFL Rule 3, Section 35. By the same rule and section, when Keenan McCardell recovered Doss’ fumble, Tampa Bay went back on offense and Indianapolis went back on defense. When Tampa Bay went back on offense, McCardell regained his status as an offensive player. His in-play designations were OP-DP-OD-TD scorer. I CANNOT OVERSTATE THIS. I REJECT THIS INTERPRETATION. I ONLY POINT IT OUT FOR TWO REASONS. FIRST, IT LEADS TO THE SAME CONCLUSION WHETHER WE APPLY THE NFL RULE OR NOT. SECOND, IT IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE ARE USING THE CHANGE IN POSSESSION TO DEMONSTRATE THAT McCARDELL WAS ON DEFENSE. IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO THAT ONCE, WHY AREN’T YOU DOING IT TWICE – SINCE THERE WERE TWO CHANGES OF POSSESSION ON THIS PLAY? SO THAT’S MY POINT. NOT THAT NO DEFENSE CAN EVER SCORE A TD IN FANTASY FOOTBALL. OF COURSE THEY CAN. TO THINK OTHERWISE IS ABSURD! This is only mentioned to reinforce the notion that either way, McCardell’s TD is offensive, not defensive.

There is a movement out there that seems to think once possession changed, both teams were on defense. I am not aware of any fantasy football or NFL rule that would permit two defensive teams on the field at one time. Rugby, maybe. Not in the NFL. Although they do not state that they believe there were two defensive teams on the field at a time, their interpretation mandates that position. After the first turnover, if a defender returns if for a TD it is a defensive TD. If possession changes again, possession was gained while the new team with possession was on defense. And that’s the problem. They are defining the designation at the time of the change of possession, and that is not defined as to be the case anywhere, to my knowledge.

So we really have four possibilities: 1) Tampa was on offense the whole play, 2) Tampa was on offense, then defense, then back on offense, 3) Tampa and Indianapolis were both playing defense at the same time, or 4) Tampa will be on offense until I daarn well say they’re not on offense any more.

Here is the scoring summaries under each scenario:

SCENARIO #1 – TAMPA WAS ON OFFENSE THE ENTIRE PLAY

Brad Johnson – credited with 1 pass, 1 interception, 0 receptions and 0 yards

Keenan McCardell – credited with 1 fumble recovery and 1 TD return*

Michael Doss – credited with 1 interception, 15 return yards and 1 fumble

Indianapolis defense – credited with 1 interception, 15 return yards and 1 fumble

Tampa Bay defense – no credit received, they were never involved in this play

* - McCardell’s points can only be awarded if your scoring rules permit points to WRs for fumble recoveries and TDs resulting from fumble recoveries. McCardell receives neither rushing nor receiving yards.

SCENARIO #2 – TAMPA WAS ON OFFENSE, THEN DEFENSE, THEN OFFENSE AGAIN

Brad Johnson – credited with 1 pass, 1 interception, 0 receptions and 0 yards

Keenan McCardell – credited with 1 fumble recovery and 1 TD return*

Michael Doss – credited with 1 interception, 15 return yards and 1 fumble

Indianapolis defense – credited with 1 interception, 15 return yards and 1 fumble

Tampa Bay defense – credited with 1 fumble recovery and 0 TD returns

* - McCardell’s points can only be awarded if your scoring rules permit points to WRs for fumble recoveries and TDs resulting from fumble recoveries. McCardell receives neither rushing nor receiving yards.

SCENARIO #3 – TAMPA AND INDIANAPOLIS WERE BOTH DEFENSE AT THE SAME TIME

Brad Johnson – credited with 1 pass, 1 interception, 0 receptions and 0 yards

Keenan McCardell – credited with nothing because he is suffering from a terrible identity crisis as a WR. In fact, he could not return the fumble. He was looking to the sidelines wondering what he was doing out there where there were supposed to be two defensive teams on the same field

Michael Doss – credited with 1 interception, 15 return yards and 1 fumble

Indianapolis defense – credited with 1 interception, 15 return yards and 1 fumble

Tampa Bay defense – credited with 1 fumble recovery and 1 TD return

* - McCardell’s points can only be awarded if your scoring rules permit points to WRs for fumble recoveries and TDs resulting from fumble recoveries. McCardell receives neither rushing nor receiving yards – mostly because he doesn’t exist, as an offensive player

(NOTE: We have already rejected this possibility by allowing for defensive TDs. If you have a defensive, by definition you must also have an offense. Otherwise, it would be like a civil war in France.)

SCENARIO #4 – TAMPA WILL BE ON OFFENSE AND THE DEFENSE UNTIL I DAMN WELL SAY THEY’RE NOT ANY MORE

Everyone’s scores – Hell, I don’t know. Do what you want. You’re making up rules as you go anyway.

OTHER SCORING TECHNICALITY: If your league awards defensive/special teams points simply for “return points” then a liberal interpretation would grant D/ST points for this fumble return.

There is also a string of comments related to relying on your online league management system. I understand and appreciate that position. However, I reject it as a copout. I think these situations are what make the Commissioner’s job what it is. But it is complicated and a fun league that does not live or die by this stuff can simply refer to its league management site or software for guidance.

There is also a reliance of categorization of this TD as a “Def” TD for McCardell by ww.NFL.com. This is interesting. However, if you look closely, www.NFL.com does not have a category for this TD. They stuck it in there because in many ways a fumble recovery looks like a defensive TD – hence our entire discussion. Not only that, but there are thousands of “NFL Official Stats” on Tuesday during the season that are changed by Elias later in the season. Let’s see if this designation withstands the test of time.

Likewise, there are some website management services, like www.CBSSportsline.com, that also treat this as a defensive TD. Their argument is that the Doss interception switched designations. CSBSportsline is using the following verbiage:

McCardell Fumble Recovery Will Be Scored as Defensive Touchdown 10/7/2003

The play in which Keenan McCardell picked up Michael Doss's fumble and ran it in for a touchdown will be scored as a touchdown for the Buccaneers defense. The reason is as follows: once Michael Doss intercepted Brad Johnson's pass, there was a change of possession and the Bucs become the defensive team. Doss then fumbled the ball and McCardell recovered the fumble and returned it for a TD. Even though McCardell is typically an offensive player, he was considered a defensive player at the point he took possession of the ball. As a result, the Bucs defense will be credited with a Defensive Fumble Recovery and a Defensive TD.

Their answer and ruling is flawed. They are utilizing the defining event as the position he was functioning in at the time he took possession of the ball, not the time he scored the TD. I could even see a remote scenario where an interception or fumble recovery that OCCURS IN THE END ZONE could result in such a ruling because the moment of the score and the moment the player took possession were identical. That’s not the case here. This is a case when possession changed twice and either you do not recognize either (as we do on a daily basis) or you recognize twice. You do not get to choose which changes of possession you’ll accept and which your won’t.

And there are other sites that are reporting it correctly, like RTS Sports. So using one site’s interpretation as gospel in a universal discussion doesn’t make sense.

The interesting thing about this debate is those that claim McCardell’s TD ought to be viewed as a defensive TD use the change of possession as the defining event that put Tampa on defense and Indianapolis on offense. However, they fail to recognize the second change of possession, which returns the teams to their original designations. And if they believed their own argument, and had Doss returned the ball for a TD instead, it could not have resulted in a defensive TD because Doss was on offense at the time. The point is there were two changes in possession. Either Tampa was always on offense or they started the play on offense, then went to defense, then back to offense with the second change of possession. But with two changes in possession, there is no way – using common sense or the NFL rules – that this is a defensive TD to be credited to Tampa Bay’s defense.

THE ULTIMATE ANSWER, GOING FORWARD: Use Individual Defensive Players and allow for scoring universally regardless of position. Then, you don’t have to worry about the next thing that will bite us in the ### – a WR lining up as a DB in prevent defense with 0:03 left on the clock and a sure Hail Mary coming. When the WR acting as a DB returns the pass for a TD, does he get credit? IDPs are not nearly as scary and almost everyone who has done them (like auctions) has swore by them and can’t believe they played any other way.

The Commissioner

 

[Burning Sensation]

tdoss,You must need this win pretty bad, and it's pretty obvious you need this ruling to go your way......That my friend, is blinding you to the facts.For the record, I am not involved one way or another with this ruling. My team is not affected, in ANY of my leagues, and it won't change any outcome of any game in the league I commish. I am the commissioner and I did the right thing. I adjusted cbs' ridiculous scoring of this play and gave the McCardell owner his rightful points.

What where Mcardell's correct points? Did you give hum rushing yards?

 

[tdoss]

tdoss,You must need this win pretty bad, and it's pretty obvious you need this ruling to go your way......That my friend, is blinding you to the facts.For the record, I am not involved one way or another with this ruling. My team is not affected, in ANY of my leagues, and it won't change any outcome of any game in the league I commish. I am the commissioner and I did the right thing. I adjusted cbs' ridiculous scoring of this play and gave the McCardell owner his rightful points.

Not at all...I don't have either players or defenses in this...I already won my week on Sunday...didn't have any players in MNF's game...I'm just trying to get a definitive answer...

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Friends and Subscribers (and recently appointed enemies based on this ruling): . . .

Even if you disagree with the conclusion, you have to acknowledge that Bill's answer is well thought-out and well written.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

THE ULTIMATE ANSWER, GOING FORWARD:  Use Individual Defensive Players and allow for scoring universally regardless of position.

Here's my ultimate answer going forward: draft your league's rules so they'll score these kinds of plays in a way that makes sense to you and your leaguemates.If you think the Bucs DT (not McCardell) should get the points: "Return TDs following a change of possession on that same play shall be awarded to the DT of the scoring team. Return TDs not following a change of possession on that same play shall be awarded to the individual scoring player."If you think McCardell (not the Bucs DT) should get the points: "A return TD scored by the team that was in possession at the snap shall be awarded to the individual scoring player, and not to his team's DT. A return TD scored by the team that was not in possession at the snap shall be awarded to that team's DT."Or whatever.

 

[Burning Sensation]

From Bill Davies:So we really have four possibilities: 1) Tampa was on offense the whole play, 2) Tampa was on offense, then defense, then back on offense, 3) Tampa and Indianapolis were both playing defense at the same time, or 4) Tampa will be on offense until I daarn well say they’re not on offense any more.

I disagree, i believe there is a 5th option. Treat it as a special teams play. What do you consider a punt, offensive or defensive? Lets assume for a second that the play occured on 4th down. The Bucs line up to go for it. Brad Johnson receives the snap and punts it. Doss fields the ball, runs 15 yards up field and then fumbles, Mcardell picks it up and runs it in for a TD. I know that kicking and throwing is a big difference, but it sure makes more sense to me than the play being considered offensive or defensive.

 

[sjslacker]

Yahoo currently scores it like so. I have Indy's def and they had 29 points allowed. So when Ronde Barber returned that INT for a TD they did not charge the Indy defense with 6 points allowed. This makes sense, they were not on the field at the time. So if your league scores it similiarly then McCardell's TD is not a Def/ST TD. If your league does charge Ind def with 6 points allowed when Barber returned it for a TD then you should score McCardell's TD as a Def/ST TD as well.It's odd that Yahoo gave the TD to Tampa's Def/ST. This seems inconsistent to me. Thank goodness it doesnt affect any outcomes in my leagues.