Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
FBGs vs Kasparov- chess game- Draw agreed to (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
Aerial Assault
Footballguy
I love Qa5 here. But I can see the merits of Nc6. We certainly have a pretty weak center, which concerns me against an IM.
timschochet
Footballguy
What do you see? Please explain your thought.
timschochet
Footballguy
I believe a move like Qa5 is being played only to gain an immediate tactical advantage (which is easily countered by Bd2 or Ne2 BTW) and does nothing to help us with our central theme, nor our development.
Aerial Assault
Footballguy
It's being aggressive and putting his pieces under pressure. But it certainly doesn't address the weak center, and Nc6 does, at least a bit, and also promotes development. Incidentally I'd also love to liberate our queen's (light-squared) bishop at some point soon.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
And Bd2 would put pressure on the queen (after a3).
Curious to here what Bob says but I'm good with Nc6 or b6.
Last edited by a moderator:
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Tim - you were worried about e4 - can you explain why Kaspy would do that with his next move?
Incidentally - how cool will it be for him to come back and read this thread later? Granted, I think most of us (especially me) aren't any kind of challenge for him.
Incidentally - how cool will it be for him to come back and read this thread later? Granted, I think most of us (especially me) aren't any kind of challenge for him.
Psychopav
Help us, Joebi-Wan Brynobi, you're our only ho
Originally thought it reinvigorates the value of the pin, but in further review one he counters with Bd2 then all he needs to do is push the a pawn for it to be a losing proposition for us. The best we get out of that is disrupting his queenside structure, but would leave our queen vulnerable at the end, unnecessarily.If disrupting his structure is our goal we can do that much more simply by just taking the knight. Which doesn't look horrible if we follow up with b6 and then fianchetto.
Fyi, for rise still struggling to file along, copy paste the pgn from the first post here and it's simple, and allows you to play out different scenarios pretty easily. Works on desktop or mobile:
http://chesstempo.com/pgn-viewer-beta.html
Psychopav
Help us, Joebi-Wan Brynobi, you're our only ho
Aerial Assault
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Well Joffer tells me not to get too hung up on this. But my thought was that the purpose of our opening, per McGarnicle's video, is to control the e4 square. Now I'm not sure what that means later in the game, but right now it means preventing him from playing e4, which would free up his pieces. That's why I was talking about d5 or b6 and Bb7, which target that square.
However, if we castle right away or play b6 right away, we're not stopping e4 which means he could play it right now before we get our act together- unless there's some other tactical reason that he won't; I just don't know what that is. However, by playing Nc6 and threatening the d4 pawn it seems like we still prevent it for now, so I can see the logic of that move.
Hope that makes sense. Again, this entire opening structure is new to me so I really don't know what I'm doing.
timschochet
Footballguy
I am going to be gone for the next several hours until at least the late afternoon and I won't be able to post. I would like everyone, especially Sac Bob and Joffer, to explain the various ideas behind this position and give their thoughts on Nc6 (and on any other alternatives if they'd like.) And please ask all the questions you can. We need to be in consensus about what our longer range plans are.
Also please vote if you'd like Nc6 or if you prefer something else. When I return this late afternoon I'll make our move based on the consensus.
Also please vote if you'd like Nc6 or if you prefer something else. When I return this late afternoon I'll make our move based on the consensus.
dancingbones
Footballguy
I like Nc6. Protects the bishop if we want to play cxd4 next?
Or we could follow with d5 & O-O & likely end up in the same position that Sac Bob posted in the first game after move 9.
This is one of those points in a game where I just tend to start getting some pieces off of the board & see what happens. Which is probably why I tend to lose against players that have a bit more vision at this point!
If I were playing this myself, I'd be looking at
... Nc6
6. Nf3 cxd4
7. exd4 Bxc3+
8. bxc3 O-O
Don't know if that really gets us anywhere though!
Or we could follow with d5 & O-O & likely end up in the same position that Sac Bob posted in the first game after move 9.
This is one of those points in a game where I just tend to start getting some pieces off of the board & see what happens. Which is probably why I tend to lose against players that have a bit more vision at this point!
If I were playing this myself, I'd be looking at
... Nc6
6. Nf3 cxd4
7. exd4 Bxc3+
8. bxc3 O-O
Don't know if that really gets us anywhere though!
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Sorry to be dense but I don't see it still - as someone else pointed out we could go c5xd4 and even if he goes a3 we would come out ahead of that exchange and even though we'd have little development it doesn't look to be too bad.
Anyway, I defer to Bob - my vote would be Nc6
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Don't we give up most of the center with that exchange and have little developed?
Aerial Assault
Footballguy
Vote Nc6.
Nick Vermeil
Footballguy
I agree but I could do with a hair more color commentary for the layman. I get that the team here is trying to be aggressive. What do we think Kasparov is trying to do? The thread works best for me with comments like "don't take the knight until we have to. It's trapped." The "if we do this abbreviation then we can do this abbreviation" is fine for you guys playing but loses me.
Yes, this thread should be about me. Thanks!
timschochet
Footballguy
Seems like Nc6 is the consensus so I will play it without further delay.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
If Nf3 then Bxc3
If Ne2 then cxd4 followed by d5
If Ne2 then cxd4 followed by d5
Nick Vermeil
Footballguy
SacramentoBob said:
timschochet
Footballguy
Hes saying that white's next move will be to develop his knight on g1, either to f3 or e2. If he moves it to f3, our bishop can then take the other knight, which gives him doubled pawns (which could be a long term advantage for black). If he moves the knight to e2, we don't take the knight since he would just recapture with the e2 knight. In that case we take the d pawn and after he recaptures with his e pawn we play d5 which continues our fight for the e4 square. Does that make sense? My only thought is that if we do play d5 we no longer want to have our bishop on b7 perhaps, as that d5 pawn might stay there most of the game, which would give us s bad bishop (a bad bishop is one that is blocked by our own pawns)SacramentoBob said:
Translation:If white moves his kNight to F3, we should move our Bisohp and capture (X) white's piece on c3 (his knight).SacramentoBob said:
But if white moves his kNight to E2, we should move our pawn (no letter for a pawn) and capture (x) white's piece on d4 (a pawn) followed by moving another pawn (again, no letter) to d5.
Of course, it helps if you have a chess board to follow along with and the board has the numbers and spaces. See (through 4 moves):
McGarnicle said:
Last edited by a moderator:
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
i know people in here aren't going to cheat but isn't it possible nowadays to basically just input the moves into a computer program and win 99.9% of the time?
Psychopav
Help us, Joebi-Wan Brynobi, you're our only ho
Any toughed about taking the knight now? It would also force the double prawns and they plus the bishop if we fianchetto puts decent pressure on his king side castle
dancingbones
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Yes, but I think Bender mentioned some sites are good at catching cheats. Not sure how they do it.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I brought this up and I think the idea is two-fold against:
1. You lose tempo by moving the bishop again
2. You miss out on developing other pieces.
Somebody correct me if I have this wrong.
John Bender
Footballguy
lichess
and it's why i've moved most of my online play there.
They use some some advanced algorithms that i could never explain but ive seen people get the boot mid tournament before over there. Anyone shooting up the ranks never lasts more than a day without being snuffed out, and if you're a serial offender, they will just IP ban you.
ETA: It's not particularly difficult to determine when you're playing vs a machine at least for some of the moves. It's getting the ICC to do something about it that sucks. Since it's a pay site, Sandro (the head of ICC) seems reticent to take action vs cheats.
Last edited by a moderator:
timschochet
Footballguy
Kaspy move Nge2
timschochet
Footballguy
So much for doubling the pawns. Now according to Bob, we capture the d4 pawn and then play d5. Thoughts?
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
Ne2 is considered more correct for White, avoiding the Huebner center blocking strategy. The drawback is Black can contest the center more easily now. cd (giving the bishop an escape back to e7) followed by d5 is the standard here. Black aims to give White the long-term weakness of the IQP, although it gives White attacking chances in the middlegame. White can avoid IQP by pushing c5 though with a plan of using his qside majority to create a passed pawn.
timschochet
Footballguy
Sorry what is IQP?
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
Isolated queen pawn.
tommyboy
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Ah OK. Now I understand you- I think.
Let's break this down for those who don't get it- (and me, just to make sure I do
Once we take his d pawn with cxd4, and he recaptures with exd4, white will now have an isolated pawn at d4 (the isolated queen pawn or IQP). This means that there is no pawn on either c3 or e3 that protects it- the e3 pawn is gone, and the c pawn is already at c4. This COULD be a long term weakness for white- not something we can take advantage right away, or even possibly in the middle game- in fact, we may not want to take advantage of it too early as it could free up his pieces. But if we could get into the endgame with that pawn still isolated, we would then be able to capture that pawn and use our majority pawn advantage to queen a pawn and win the game. Obviously there's a long way to go from here to there. White will attempt to counter this by using that pawn as an advantage for attacking in the middle game most likely, which means our defense is going to have to be VERY VERY GOOD just to make it into the endgame in the first place.
Hope that makes sense.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
White won't have an IQP until we capture on d4 AND play d7-d5 which threatens to capture on c4 (or black can capture on d5 and we recapture with the knight) which isolates the d-pawn.
What do people use to host images these days?
What do people use to host images these days?
timschochet
Footballguy
Bob's other immediate point of cxd4 is that it offers an escape route for our bishop if a3 is played. Obviously now we don't want to take the knight, since it won't lead to doubled pawns.
Is there anyone who objects to c x d4 or has a different idea? It seems like not only is this the "book" move, but Bob has explained some pretty good ideas behind it. I think we need to move forward with it. What say you?
Is there anyone who objects to c x d4 or has a different idea? It seems like not only is this the "book" move, but Bob has explained some pretty good ideas behind it. I think we need to move forward with it. What say you?
AAABatteries
Footballguy
What if he takes d4 with his knight? I thought that is what Bob meant - we could end up with IQPAh OK. Now I understand you- I think.Let's break this down for those who don't get it- (and me, just to make sure I do
Once we take his d pawn with cxd4, and he recaptures with exd4, white will now have an isolated pawn at d4 (the isolated queen pawn or IQP). This means that there is no pawn on either c3 or e3 that protects it- the e3 pawn is gone, and the c pawn is already at c4. This COULD be a long term weakness for white- not something we can take advantage right away, or even possibly in the middle game- in fact, we may not want to take advantage of it too early as it could free up his pieces. But if we could get into the endgame with that pawn still isolated, we would then be able to capture that pawn and use our majority pawn advantage to queen a pawn and win the game. Obviously there's a long way to go from here to there. White will attempt to counter this by using that pawn as an advantage for attacking in the middle game most likely, which means our defense is going to have to be VERY VERY GOOD just to make it into the endgame in the first place.
Hope that makes sense.
timschochet
Footballguy
Bob, two other questions for you if you don't mind?
1. I pointed out earlier that once we play d5, we may not necessarily want to fianchetto the bishop on b7 anymore. Is that correct? Or is the bishop still headed there? (And if not there, where?)
2. Once a3 is played and our bishop retreats to e7, won't white play b4 and attempt to roll us up on the queenside? How do we best defend against that?
Thx.
1. I pointed out earlier that once we play d5, we may not necessarily want to fianchetto the bishop on b7 anymore. Is that correct? Or is the bishop still headed there? (And if not there, where?)
2. Once a3 is played and our bishop retreats to e7, won't white play b4 and attempt to roll us up on the queenside? How do we best defend against that?
Thx.
timschochet
Footballguy
He won't- at least I don't think he would, as that would give us B x N and the doubled pawn threat again. It also, by leaving the e3 pawn in place, blocks his bishop on c1 from getting into the game. So that would be to our advantage, I think. Bob can tell us if I'm right.What if he takes d4 with his knight? I thought that is what Bob meant - we could end up with IQPAh OK. Now I understand you- I think.Let's break this down for those who don't get it- (and me, just to make sure I do
Once we take his d pawn with cxd4, and he recaptures with exd4, white will now have an isolated pawn at d4 (the isolated queen pawn or IQP). This means that there is no pawn on either c3 or e3 that protects it- the e3 pawn is gone, and the c pawn is already at c4. This COULD be a long term weakness for white- not something we can take advantage right away, or even possibly in the middle game- in fact, we may not want to take advantage of it too early as it could free up his pieces. But if we could get into the endgame with that pawn still isolated, we would then be able to capture that pawn and use our majority pawn advantage to queen a pawn and win the game. Obviously there's a long way to go from here to there. White will attempt to counter this by using that pawn as an advantage for attacking in the middle game most likely, which means our defense is going to have to be VERY VERY GOOD just to make it into the endgame in the first place.
Hope that makes sense.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
Here's a standard tactical maneuver that demonstrates the weakness of the pawn in an endgame.
http://www.eddins.net/steve/chess/ChessImager/ChessImager.php?fen=3r2k1/5pp1/4p2p/3r4/3P4/7P/3R1PP1/3R2K1
Black plays e6-e5 and wins the pawn. It's now attacked 3 times with 2 defenders and White can't defend the pawn any more. And the pawn is also pinned and can't capture on e5 without losing a rook.
http://www.eddins.net/steve/chess/ChessImager/ChessImager.php?fen=3r2k1/5pp1/4p2p/3r4/3P4/7P/3R1PP1/3R2K1
Black plays e6-e5 and wins the pawn. It's now attacked 3 times with 2 defenders and White can't defend the pawn any more. And the pawn is also pinned and can't capture on e5 without losing a rook.
timschochet
Footballguy
By the way, an isolated pawn in the center of the board is only a weakness in the endgame. In the middle game it can be used to attack. Something to keep in mind.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
Taking with the knight on d4 would be a ummm novel approach.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
Which is why I went for this variation. It will be very instructive for the group.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Doesn't Ba3 prevent us from castling if we play c5? If I'm asking dumb questions just tell me to shut upHe won't- at least I don't think he would, as that would give us B x N and the doubled pawn threat again. It also, by leaving the e3 pawn in place, blocks his bishop on c1 from getting into the game. So that would be to our advantage, I think. Bob can tell us if I'm right.What if he takes d4 with his knight? I thought that is what Bob meant - we could end up with IQPAh OK. Now I understand you- I think.Let's break this down for those who don't get it- (and me, just to make sure I do
Once we take his d pawn with cxd4, and he recaptures with exd4, white will now have an isolated pawn at d4 (the isolated queen pawn or IQP). This means that there is no pawn on either c3 or e3 that protects it- the e3 pawn is gone, and the c pawn is already at c4. This COULD be a long term weakness for white- not something we can take advantage right away, or even possibly in the middle game- in fact, we may not want to take advantage of it too early as it could free up his pieces. But if we could get into the endgame with that pawn still isolated, we would then be able to capture that pawn and use our majority pawn advantage to queen a pawn and win the game. Obviously there's a long way to go from here to there. White will attempt to counter this by using that pawn as an advantage for attacking in the middle game most likely, which means our defense is going to have to be VERY VERY GOOD just to make it into the endgame in the first place.
Hope that makes sense.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
How does the bishop get to a3?